Artillery of the RAF?

[Zuasfadas]

First of all, I want to say that I like this mod so much because the realism, new units and balance changes.

Until now, I've played a lot of games with friends using different doctrines from all factions and I've noticed that RAF doctrine doesn't have any artillery unit to deal against emplacements. (I'm referring specifically to a battle against Wehr defensive doctrine)

I was trying to find what would be the best option to advance and destroy an enemy base when I manage to corner him, but a battle 1v1 RAF vs Defensive gets really annoying when the Wehr player starts to turtle himself creating a lot of AA emplacements which disables any attempt of attacking his base with bomb abilities (At first, I can trick his AA making them fire to my Recon plane and sending another plane after 2 - 3 seconds, but when he creates a lot of AA it's practically impossible since my plane can send 1 - 2 bombs before getting destroyed and it uses a lot of munitions).

Send Commandos or SAS is only a waste of manpower and time because they get pulverized by AA fire, even if I try to approach with concealing smoke because his base has also MGs.

If you think I should go in with tanks that's no - no option because his turtle includes Paks which also disables any attempt of attacks with tanks (Only two Paks are enough to destroy my Crusader tanks, which also gets damaged by AA fire =O, and he also ensures himself with AT teams). Also, if they manage to last longer the game, he creates 88's which are very effective against my tanks and airplanes.

So I try to get them out with mortars:

2 - Inch mortars get destroyed quickly because they have a shorter range compared with standard mortars so they have to get closer to the objective, normally, enough to see them deploying and fire to them. So if they don't get caught by enemy fire, they get it by enemy artillery or mortars.

Emplacement mortars are also another waste of time since they are static and are an easy target for mortar fire. (They are good as a defensive position, but remember that I'm trying to attack with what I have).

Commando mortars are practically like normal mortars (In fact, they use the emplacement's mortar duh). I also know that they have the concealing smoke ability but still, it is like a normal mortar war when they respond with mortars. Whoever fires first win the battle but if the other mortar is lucky enough, they destroy you first.

At these times it comes to me the idea that RAF really needs an artillery unit. The USA Airborne doctrine has a packed Howitzer, the PE Tank Hunter doctrine has a Hotchkiss which can be upgraded with rockets, if the Royal Engineers don't use their Tulip Rocket Launcher from their Sherman, they can use always their Howitzer Churchill.

Also notice that by the time I get my mortar commandos, I've spent enough manpower to create emplacements and Paks if I were on the Axis side. This is why it happens me almost any time that I play against Defensive Wehr AI. If the game is long enough he can even make a howitzer and make me take many casualties...

I suggest an artillery unit, like a tank or a mobile Howitzer, or bomb abilities for the commando captain, or the captain. Like the tank artillery abilities of the USA Armor Doctrine.

As I said first, I like this mod very much and I hope my suggestion helped a bit. Sorry if I have a bad english, it's not my language though

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Some time ago i suggested to move arty cromwell from Arty doc to Raf doc, but got no respond from devs. And yes, you are right, raf is only doc in game which dont have even a single arty unit.

[Butterkeks]

Well first you have to know that BK is actually not made for 1v1. It is balanced for 2v2, 3v3 and 4v4.

This means: In a normal game when you take RAF, you have a mate watching after you with Arty. You have to choose your docs so that you have at least one player with Arty (it is always needed). Not Arty doc, but any doc with some Artillery in it. (inf, RE, RA)
It's no wonder that you have problems fighting Def doc with RAF alone

[MarKr]

As Butterkeks said, BK is not made for 1vs1 games so it is known that some doctrines can strugle against some others. BK is made for team games where your team mate is meant to help you fill the shortcomings of your doctrine.

Anyway if you decide to go 1vs1 and you get into such situation I guess your best bet would be building several Mortars, shooting the smoke shells at the emplacements (smoke shells have long range) and then bomb the emplacements with planes. Smoke reduces accuracy a lot so the emplacement concealed in smoke hits targets it aims at less often while planes don't target a specific unit - they drop bombs "on ground" so their accuracy does not suffer from this.

[6thAirborneDivision]

First of all thank you for bringing up that issue again.
Would be fan of it. The RAF arty thing is old as hell but DEV's seem to ignore CW players on this one pretty much for a long time.
Since almost every axis doc has some neblers or wurfrahmens or stuff it would just be fair. Axis Luftwaffe also has it's neblers. So where is the problem exactly? I think RA need at least something like that halftrack which can be build in the infantry truck when choosing royal artillery (I don't know how it is named sorry). A unit like that would be just fine. Leaving it without one and saying "rely on your arty mate" is the easy way but it can go horribly wrong not only on 1vs1 maps but on 2vs2 maps also.

And come on: attacking heavy emplacements with mortars and airstrikes is a waste in ammo and cooldown time ... (when planes even make it to their destination, since that patch they are failing so often on 3vs3 and 4vs4 getting shot down by just base defense ...)

[Butterkeks]

Why don't you build that AT Gun from the Tetrarch glider? Sorry I forgot about it's name (NOT the 6-pounder). It deals a high damage, and has a high range too. Tbh I don't know if it's enough for an 88 but base defenses are definitely killable with it, therefore the Flak36 emplacement from Def doc too.

Otherwise there would be two ways to handle it:

1: Give RAF some Arty. It could be the 25 pounder with only the normal range shot, no special ammo. In that case, Luft had the powerful 88 as AT-Gun + a bit of Arty and Nebler, RAF would have a better Arty that therefore could not be used vs tanks.

2: Remove Arty from both Luft and RAF. So basically no changes for RAF, but no Neblers and no 88 barrage for Luft. This would force axis too to have a better teamplay and not only this everybody-for-himself-rampage.

I prefer the second solution, but this simply has to do with the fact that I wish a higher degree of specialisation for Axis (like Allies are now).

[MarKr]

And come on: attacking heavy emplacements with mortars and airstrikes is a waste in ammo and cooldown time ... (when planes even make it to their destination, since that patch they are failing so often on 3vs3 and 4vs4 getting shot down by just base defense ...)

And I said:

Anyway if you decide to go 1vs1 and you get into such situation

- "such situation" means the condition he described which is 1vs1 and opponent cornered near base. Under such circumstances there are not 6 AA empacemnts in the base region only one or two + whatever the player builds. So in the situation he described it is probably the only option.

And if you talk about planes in 3vs3 or 4vs4 then there RAF does not need arty since your allies have it so if you need to send a barrage somewhere your mate can handle it.

I prefer the second solution, but this simply has to do with the fact that I wish a higher degree of specialisation for Axis (like Allies are now).

The thing is that Allies are simply meant to be more specialized while Axis are meant to be more "all round". This is concept that won't change, I'm affraid.

[Butterkeks]

The thing is that Allies are simply meant to be more specialized while Axis are meant to be more "all round". This is concept that won't change, I'm affraid.

Ok^^
I just thought it was never meant like this but somehow just happened through all these patches

[MarKr]

I haven't been around here from the beginnings of the mod so I cannot say a definite "no, that is not the case" but from what I figured from all the posts on this and the old forum I simply presume that Xalibur wanted it to be this way. If I am right or wrong, I do not know.

[Warhawks97]

I haven't been around here from the beginnings of the mod so I cannot say a definite "no, that is not the case" but from what I figured from all the posts on this and the old forum I simply presume that Xalibur wanted it to be this way. If I am right or wrong, I do not know.

The old dev team was actually just about to make axis docs just as specialised as allied docs. But they had only time for the Th doc in 4.7 Beta. Changes for Terror for example did exist. Iirc they once even asked for doctrine suggestions very long time ago.


So of what i know it was not intended actually to have allied docs very specialised by keeping axis so versatile.

Leaving it without one and saying "rely on your arty mate" is the easy way but it can go horribly wrong not only on 1vs1 maps but on 2vs2 maps also.

Most of the time it goes horrible wrong. 95% of all players just play their own game in teamfights. So it often happens that arty player gets no arty coz he must provide tanks by its own while armor doc player doesnt help him with tanks and trying to fight 88 guns by its own. And guess what.... last time if seen exactly this situation was when i watched tigers stream. he couldnt pass 88´s, his mate couldnt get effective arty coz he had to provide defense against axis inf and schrecks by its own.

And come on: attacking heavy emplacements with mortars and airstrikes is a waste in ammo and cooldown time ... (when planes even make it to their destination, since that patch they are failing so often on 3vs3 and 4vs4 getting shot down by just base defense ...)[/quote]


RAF planes are not really effective in cracking any sort of defense. Esspecially when the number of emplacments is increased by so many that one covers the other. So even if one gets temporarily decrewed it doesnt really help.




But generally i dont get the "BK arty logic at all". Generally the axis side has access to lots of arty units in all their doctrines. 4 VT abilites of which the def and SE is the most brutal one. Elite inf that can crack normal emplacmend defenses and very big tanks which can be cracked generally only by allieds biggest AT weapons. And at the same time allied have two docs that are using some defensive emplacments effectively in games. So allied defense is less powerfull and need most of the time support from offense units like shermans.

At the other side axis are capable to provide very strong defenses which needs sometimes just little temporarily support from other units. The strenght of the defense is relys on defensive stuctures durability and the fact that it is highly effective at any range.


So when one side has heavy armored tanks, strong long range defense and powerfull assult inf i then would expect the other side having more or more effective arty stuff in exchange for less access to heavy armored and armed tanks and effective "breakthrough"/assault inf. But somehow its not the case.

Well Zuasfadas, i wish you good luck. As sukin said, last time we figured that out and when we talked about it we had no success.


About the field gun: it has pak range. So vs 88 it has not more range. It also can get killed by any kind of axis arty (88 is also an arty unit for def doc) and also mortars.

[Butterkeks]

I haven't been around here from the beginnings of the mod so I cannot say a definite "no, that is not the case" but from what I figured from all the posts on this and the old forum I simply presume that Xalibur wanted it to be this way. If I am right or wrong, I do not know.

The old dev team was actually just about to make axis docs just as specialised as allied docs. But they had only time for the Th doc in 4.7 Beta. Changes for Terror for example did exist. Iirc they once even asked for doctrine suggestions very long time ago.

Yep, can be seen in the topic "reworking of Axis docs?"
Sadly the Ersatzheer doc was never implemented.

Most of the time it goes horrible wrong. 95% of all players just play their own game in teamfights. So it often happens that arty player gets no arty coz he must provide tanks by its own while armor doc player doesnt help him with tanks and trying to fight 88 guns by its own. And guess what.... last time if seen exactly this situation was when i watched tigers stream. he couldnt pass 88´s, his mate couldnt get effective arty coz he had to provide defense against axis inf and schrecks by its own.

True. That's why you see me nearly never playing with somebody else as Cyber. There is nearly no coordination with random players.

So my suggestions for you, Zuasfadas: Try to get one of your friends to play BK with you. Skype (or TS or whatever) while you are playing and you will see that your gameplay get's way more effective and the problems way smaller

RAF planes are not really effective in cracking any sort of defense. Esspecially when the number of emplacments is increased by so many that one covers the other. So even if one gets temporarily decrewed it doesnt really help.

Wasn't Typhoon rocket run's effectiveness vs Defense lowered in some patch (4.7/4.6)? Before you could easily kill a 3,7cm Flak emplacement with a typhoon but today not any more. And it's better that way, it was quite OP to that time^^

But generally i dont get the "BK arty logic at all". Generally the axis side has access to lots of arty units in all their doctrines. 4 VT abilites of which the def and SE is the most brutal one. Elite inf that can crack normal emplacmend defenses and very big tanks which can be cracked generally only by allieds biggest AT weapons. And at the same time allied have two docs that are using some defensive emplacments effectively in games. So allied defense is less powerfull and need most of the time support from offense units like shermans.

At the other side axis are capable to provide very strong defenses which needs sometimes just little temporarily support from other units. The strenght of the defense is relys on defensive stuctures durability and the fact that it is highly effective at any range.


So when one side has heavy armored tanks, strong long range defense and powerfull assult inf i then would expect the other side having more or more effective arty stuff in exchange for less access to heavy armored and armed tanks and effective "breakthrough"/assault inf. But somehow its not the case.

Yeah, the Arty logic is a bit strange in these days

[Zuasfadas]

Yeah, I'm aware that BK mod is best played with more players, but... does that mean that I should only avoid playing 1v1 maps?
I know that actually there are a lot of maps for coh in packs, some of them are well done and can be played only in 1v1. Also, if you tell me "I should get a partner to deal against defensive emplacements" why the description of the doctrine says "Request Typhoon fighter-bombers to SMASH German defensive positions and attack formations"?, and that also means that if I choose RAF, my partner will get almost always more score than me because the base bombing.

I mean, every doctrine of the game has at least 1 type of arty unit, why not the RAF? D: , actually, a 1v1 game is playable because any faction has mortars, vehicles, infantry, emplacements, and artillery; with the exception of the RAF. u.u

[Krieger Blitzer]

Ya, the Jumbo swap with the Calliope and probably moving or at least just adding the arty Cromwell to the RAF doc won't hurt... But as I already mentioned before.. the RAF Typhoon bombing run aircraft really needs a slight ammo price increase from currently just 135 to maybe 150 which was the old cost btw!

[Warhawks97]

Ya, the Jumbo swap with the Calliope and probably moving or at least just adding the arty Cromwell to the RAF doc won't hurt... But as I already mentioned before.. the RAF Typhoon bombing run aircraft really needs a slight ammo price increase from currently just 135 to maybe 150 which was the old cost btw!

lol.... we just figured out that the airstikres cant smash axis defense as written in the descritption and generally are only effective against soft targets.... and now you want back old cost? no way

[Krieger Blitzer]

What "no way"???!!! I have now mentioned this btw for something that is probably like to be about 10 times maybe?! This is the 10th time for u to hear this I bet.. so I am wondering really how u suddenly got to remember objecting on it atm...
Weird but anyways; I said before several times that the AB patrol price should be costing less so that it shall become 250 instead of currently 265 while the Long Tom price would increase on the other hand being 265 instead of 250... Swapping their prices I meant!
Then I added that the RAF Typhoon bombing run aircraft which is mainly used so effectively against all the advancing inf and not vs any kind of defenses at all.. can't stay being only 10 ammo more expensive with also a lower cool-down than the AB strafing run aircraft of which is costing 125 ammo!! We are even nerfing SD2s, probably adding the arty Cromwell to RAF as well.
So I don't want to hear any 'no ways' plz...

[Zuasfadas]

Oh, by the way, mortar commandos don't have the ability to launch smoke. Only 2 -Inch mortars along with their short range.

[Warhawks97]

So I don't want to hear any 'no ways' plz...

lol.

[Krieger Blitzer]

What's so funny??
Anything to object on??!! Nothing.

[JimQwilleran]

What's so funny??
Anything to object on??!! Nothing

This is why I say that everybody will leave this forum eventually because of you.

[Krieger Blitzer]

U don't have a sense of humor

[Warhawks97]

What's so funny??
Anything to object on??!! Nothing.

you use "now way" or "i wont let it happen" but i cant use a single time "no way"? Thats why "lol".

[Krieger Blitzer]

Ah... That's alright Mr.Hawks! Since u said 'no way', then it won't or can't happen anyhow

Bowing to u Forgive me plz..

[Butterkeks]

Ah... That's alright Mr.Hawks! Since u said 'no way', then it won't or can't happen anyhow

Bowing to u Forgive me plz..

Tiger, I'd say you are the last person that should post BS like this.

After your little going postal in the "Stormtroopers evasive manevures" you should be veeeeery carefull what you post.

This is why I say that everybody will leave this forum eventually because of you.

Exactly what I think too.
This is a topic about adding Artillery to RAF doc, a reasonable question that deserves some severe discussion. Yet the only thing you bring into is again your rant about how bombers need to be more expensive. So how would it be if you don't post if you don't have anything to contribute to the discussion? Would that be possible?
It saves us all a shitload of rage.


Back to topic:

why the description of the doctrine says "Request Typhoon fighter-bombers to SMASH German defensive positions and attack formations"?,

Yeah the description was never changed^^ But as I said, in a previous version of BK you could kill any emplacement simply by using the typhoon rocket run. As AA was also quite useless to that time, you had a secured kill for 250 ammo
Actually no wonder it got a bit nerfed^^

Yeah, I'm aware that BK mod is best played with more players, but... does that mean that I should only avoid playing 1v1 maps?

That's something you have to decide for yourself. I, for example can't stand 1v1, therefore I don't play it
But there are some docs that are actually really not meant to be played in 1v1. (RAF, TH, Armor doc imo too)

Adding arty cromwell to RAF would be a good idea. In RA it's actually never used (or at least I've never seen it in a singe battle), so it would be a good way to deal with the problem.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Dude, it's not u who would ever tell me whether to become careful with what I am writing or not.. because actually JimQwilleran for example is the one whom does really have to do this on the other hand or he could be probably banned too soon; as he asked for it himself as well!
But it's so funny how u r pointing to me like if I was the only responsible of that shit-storm happened over there...

And I didn't go off topic btw.. as I also mentioned about what should be done regarding the main subject here as that the arty Cromwell has to be moved or at least just added to the RAF doc perhaps.

[Redgaarden]

Please dont remove the arty cromwell from Arty company. I really like it