Stormtroopers evasive manevures

[Krieger Blitzer]

And if there is an At Gun? No chance to detect it with vehicles.
Two snipers behind it? Of course, because I have nothing else to do with my snipers... You have your snipers normally at a fixed position where they have a good overview and can kill on a distant range. I never saw anyone using two snipers at a single point on the map, just for the chance of finding an ambushed squad. Maybe only RAF with the kangaroo, but that's one out of 6 possible doctrines, so there are 5 left who can't do it. Or actually only three as rits can only build snipers in RAF.
And as we are talking mainly about brits, there would be no chance to kill em for 2 out of 3 docs.

Storms aren't good vs Armor doc with Scotts and Jumbos as well. And now u could also add the Churchills into ur consideration list too!

Allies have more free or cheaper MP upgrades because they can only kill effectively on close range. Squads with STG44 don't need to get so close to be deadly, that's why they are more expensive to equip.

This sentence of urs tells it all clearly.. that it's simply still balanced of course and nothing here is OP anyhow as I firstly mentioned! As that the Allies got free only close combat weapons, however that the Axis on the other hand got close to medium more expensive weapons... Well, what's the problem then I wonder???!!! I will need to 'upgrade' 4 STGs for 100 ammo, while u get 'free' 6 Grease SMGs; again there is an absolutely no problem excepting such a serious one with ur own mind I guess.

And Reg 5 and Gebirgsjäger come with 6 FG42 or 6 G43 + a Schreck or an LMG34 for "free" (not regarding the drop cost of 550 MP). And these units kill very effective on EVERY distance + they can kill tanks.

Now why are u jumping to talk about the only 2 limited highly expensive Luft inf squads?? It is another story as they would be fighting usually vs their counter faction against the Brits of whom does have Brens, Recces and mortars all earlier... Freaky bombing Typhoons too and even later awesome SAS squads of which u should have compared the Luft inf with!!
As u r completely curving out of the main subject this way while using a such totally stupid logic conception when u reply my statement of the Combat Engineers having 6 free Grease without CPs.. by telling me about the more expensive Luft limited inf units who are costing much more and also with CPs btw!!
They both aren't to be compared at all I believe... U could compare the Storms or the Luft inf with the AB or the RAF inf and not with Combat Engineers
And if u understand that I was actually comparing the Storms with the Combat Engineers or the Sten Commandos.. then u r committing a very big mistake as I was just pointing on that things would be just still balanced cause yet u also get powerful stuff on the Allies side already.

[Butterkeks]

This sentence of urs tells it all clearly.. that it's simply still balanced of course and nothing here is OP anyhow as I firstly mentioned! As that the Allies got free only close combat weapons, however that the Axis on the other hand got close to medium more expensive weapons... Well, what's the problem then I wonder???!!! I will need to 'upgrade' 4 STGs for 100 ammo, while u get 'free' 6 Grease; again there is an absolutely no problem except a serious one with ur own mind I guess.

Wow...
Just wow...

In that case, Tiger is just as good as M4. M4 is not so good vs tanks but therefore cheaper, so they are equal units too?
Man...
Do you actually think before posting anything or do you just write down what pops into your mind?
Demo squads can crawl, have more HP and more abilities (I'm not going to list them up a third time) and are cheaper regarding Manpower costs. Therefore they are not the same as combat engineers.
Also this ONE unit has free sten guns, Rangers, rifle squads etc. need also to be upgraded.

Now why are u jumping to talk about the only 2 limited highly expensive Luft inf squads?? It is another story as they would be fighting usually vs their counter faction against the Brits of whom does have Brens, Recces and mortars all earlier... Freaky bombing Typhoons too and even later awesome SAS squads of which u should have compared the Luft inf with!! As u r completely curving out of the main subject this way while using a such totally stupid logic sensing when u reply my statement of the Combat Engineers having 6 free Grease without CPs.. by telling me about the more expensive Luft limited inf units who are costing much more and also with CPs btw!!
They both aren't to be compared at all I believe... U could compare the Storms or the Luft inf with the AB or the RAF inf and not with Combat Engineers
And if u understand that I was actually comparing the Storms with the Combat Engineers or the Sten Commandos.. then u r committing a very big mistake as I was just pointing on that things would be just still balanced cause get powerful stuff too on the Allies side already.

So combat engineers are also availabe in every doc and not limited? Wow, that was new to me...

And I know that they are way more powerfull than combat engineers. I'm just pointing out that there are also powerfull squads within the Axis that receive very strong weapons for free. They are exclusive for Luft doc, yeah, but combat engineers are also exclusive for inf doc.
The same like you can't compare Storms with them or the Sten Commandos.
SAS just as good as Luft inf? Wad? Are you sure that you play BK mod? (But please let us not discuss about SAS now, let's focus on the Storms)

I'd like to have some other players saying if Combat Engineers and demo squad can be compared.

To bring it up once again, just delaying the evasive manevures is, yeah just a delay. Ok, Storms can now not crawl from beginning, but in mid game they will be there. So basically it's just shifting the problem to another part of the game.

A metaphor to make clear what I mean:
It would be the same as if somebody wants to build a new coal power plant but people don't want it because of the smog. Building it ten years later will give you another 10 years of clean air, but after that you have the same smog. It was just delayed, but the problem not solved.

[Krieger Blitzer]

In that case, Tiger is just as good as M4. M4 is not so good vs tanks but therefore cheaper, so they are equal units too?

I do not recognize ur logic here but let's come up to it according to the way u did;
So u r telling that, a more expensive later available Tiger tank.. against an earlier available greatly cheaper Sherman tank... is somehow unbalanced really??!!

So combat engineers are also availabe in every doc and not limited? Wow, that was new to me...

And what about the Storms??!! They are not limited to only a single one doc too???!!!

I'd like to have some other players saying if Combat Engineers and demo squad can be compared.

Do u have eyes??

And if u understand that I was actually comparing the Storms with the Combat Engineers or the Sten Commandos.. then u r committing a very big mistake as I was just pointing on that things would be just still balanced cause yet u also get powerful stuff on the Allies side already.

Now to this:-

To bring it up once again, just delaying the evasive manevures is, yeah just a delay. Ok, Storms can now not crawl from beginning, but in mid game they will be there. So basically it's just shifting the problem to another part of the game.

A metaphor to make clear what I mean:
It would be the same as if somebody wants to build a new coal power plant but people don't want it because of the smog. Building it ten years later will give you another 10 years of clean air, but after that you have the same smog. It was just delayed, but the problem not solved.

So u even don't like just a 4 CPs ability delaying to which even Wolf himself recommended as to become the best solution probably, right?! U seek an almost ability removal.. huh??!! FORGET IT. If there is a problem then it's only urs I believe...

Storms have been working like that since the start and I was mainly against the idea of nerfing the ability ANYHOW in the beginning.. I will not let something like this that is similar to the KCH removal, happen anymore time again!
SO if u don't like the 3rd solutions provided by Sukin of which I slightly modified, then u have to realize that I would fight for it then to remain just like as it is now without any changes to be done on this field. Just hit ur head on the wall Keks...

[6thAirborneDivision]

Delaying the crawling of the Stormtroopers with 4 CP's seems insincere to me. Like slowing the death of a patient without even trying to medicate him ...
Delaying the Storms plus increasing the detection level should not be an option. I think the time the Stormtroopers appear on the battlefield is totally fair right now, no need to delay them. It would be rather silly because it would take away unit and ability diversity at the beginning for the axis player because you need to invest 4 CP's for your Storms if you want them to be as strong as they are now (some people even use the word overpowered, can you even blame them doing that? ).

I am defending and I will further defend the idea in the future of increasing the detection level when the unit is crawling. I will do that against all odds and you can use as much caps lock as you want Tiger1996 . I am convinced that you will be as successful as you are now with Storms, you just can't stroll around the battlefield like little kids anymore, you need to be more careful when and where you are crawling, you can't wander across the whole Normandy anymore, you need to cleverly ambush even more.

Furthermore you can't rely only on your Storms anymore, I saw quite many games where people pretty much only used their Storms, and I was appalled that these players were really successful, even against decent allied players. I always saw the Stormtroopers as an ambush unit (and I think that they are totally fine like that even when the slay Vet3 allied squads in one second ...) and the crawling ability gave them the opportunity to go from ambush to ambush, easily securing bottlenecks on the map. The point is that they are widely used now to go behind enemies lines, doing deadly flanks as they are heavily armed. I think the playing style that evolved lastly with Storms was not intended like this and if it was, it is definitely not fair and rather dumb.

Regarding the (interesting) discussion: Why you keep comparing units now? Didn't we saw in the past that unit comparisons are not really vital and usually conclude that other discussed units are OP or too weak in comparison? Thats not what this discussion is about.

[Krieger Blitzer]

So u r denying BOTH the solutions of delaying the ability with 4 CPs and also the other super dumb one of delaying it plus also increasing its detection rate... But well, I don't need to use any caps lock actually.. because as already mentioned; Wolf as u can see on the previous pages already considered the 3rd solution of delaying it with 4 CPs as to be come the best one! I just modified it slightly

I would also say the SP is OP, can u blame me? ^^ Frontally rushing naked 88s while the KT as well could never win one to one against it... Although it's costing more and later available. Also u gotta keep in mind that the tread-breaker ability will be now no more.. which means that destroying such a mighty tank would become only possible if u flank it perfectly or when u ambush JPs, JPz or by using accurate long shots.

Increasing the detection radius would be simply insane for several reasons.. as I believe that then increasing the detection radius of all the other crawling units such as snipers or spotters would become a must too! Which is something that is greatly lowering the value of Jeeps and Bikes or Recces... Although that this is how the game is mainly meant to be played!!

[Butterkeks]

Post by 6thAirborneDivision » 04 Aug 2015, 10:49
Delaying the Stormtroopers with 4 CP's seems insincere to me. Like slowing the death of a patient without even trying to medicate him ...
Delaying the Storms plus increasing the detection level should not be an option. I think the time the Stormtroopers appear on the battlefield is totally fair right now, no need to delay them. It would be rather silly because it would take away unit and ability diversity at the beginning for the axis player because you need to invest 4 CP's for your Storms if you want them to be as strong as they are now (some people even use the word overpowered, can you even blame them doing that? ).

Storms won't be delayed by 4 CP, only the crawling abilitiy wuold be delayed

I am defending and I will further defend the idea in the future of increasing the detection level when the unit is crawling. I will do that against all odds and you can use as much caps lock as you want Tiger1996 . I am convinced that you will be as successful as you are now with Storms, you just can't stroll around the battlefield like little kids anymore, you need to be more careful when and where you are crawling, you can't wander across the whole Normandy anymore, you need to cleverly ambush even more.

+1

I do not recognize ur logic here but let's come up to it according to the way u did;
So u r telling that, a more expensive later available Tiger tank.. against an earlier available greatly cheaper Sherman tank... is somehow unbalanced really??!!

Ah ok, so later available more expensive Stormtroopers.. against an earlier available greatly cheaper combat engineers... is somehow "unbalanced" really??!!

Just using your logic to show that they are not comparable^^

And what about the Storms??!! They are not limited to only a single one doc too???!!!

Indeed they are, just as combat engineers, so why are they now to hard to handle?

Butterkeks wrote:
I'd like to have some other players saying if Combat Engineers and demo squad can be compared.


Do u have eyes??

Other players that are not you. I just can't take your opinion serious.

So u even don't like just a 4 CPs ability delaying to which even Wolf himself recommended as to become the best solution probably, right?! U seek an almost ability removal.. huh??!! FORGET IT. If there is a problem then it's only urs I believe...

Again...
Delaying and "nerfing" is not a removal.

Storms have been working like that since the start and I was mainly against the idea of nerfing the ability ANYHOW in the beginning.. I will not let something like this that is similar to the KCH removal, happen anymore time again!

OMG.
This sentence...
Oh forgive my almighty lord Tiger for I didn't know that you are the god ok BK Mod and the whole devs and community have to bow down before you

Really I couldn't take you serious before, but this just killed it. So you won't let it happen again? Oh, so you are in the mod team? No? Ah then you must be Wolfs boss? Also no? Damn...
Tell me how YOU won't let it happen again? This is after all the dev teams decision and nothing you can do against it. You can post suggestions and have discussions with the community, that's all.
This is neither my decision, nor yours.

SO if u don't like the 3rd solutions provided by Sukin of which I slightly modified, then u have to realize that I would fight for it then to remain just like as it is now without any changes to be done on this field. Just hit ur head on the wall Keks...

Error 404, Tiger1996s brain not found...

[Butterkeks]

Wolf as u can see on the previous pages already considered the 3rd solution of delaying it with 4 CPs as to be come the best one! I just modified it slightly

Yes but he could change his mind after a longer discussion with better arguments.

I would also say the SP is OP, can u blame me? ^^ Frontally rushing naked 88s while the KT as well could never win one to one against it... Although it's costing more and later available. Also u gotta keep in mind that the tread-breaker ability will be now no more.. which means that destroying such a mighty tank would become only possible if u flank it perfectly or when u ambush JPs, JPz or by using accurate long shots.

Never saw a SP doing this.
Also I killed it once with Bombing run from Luft doc. 215 ammo (iirc) and it's gone.
Even a normal Tiger can kill the SP, saw Cyber doing it several times.
I once even killed it with SE (without Nashorn or Hetzer).

Also SP is there only once. After it's destroyed there's no way to get it again. KT can be rebuild as often as you want.

Increasing the detection radius would be simply insane for several reasons.. as I believe that then increasing the detection radius of all the other crawling units such as snipers or spotters would become a must too! Which is something that is greatly lowering the value of Jeeps and Bikes or Recces... Although that this is how the game is mainly meant to be played!!

And that's total BS.
If you just increase it for Storms, nothing will happen to Recons and Snipers.
If the radius can only be increased for the troops (means: if it's not possible to increase the radius in which a unit is detected, but only the radius in which a certain unit detects other crews) there is for sure a solution for it.
E.g. increasing the detection radius for spotters and Recce, which gives every doc the ability to counter the evasive maneuver.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Would u like to bet it over my neck??!! Let's see then Keks, if the ability would ever get both delayed and also increased ability detection radius too...
This would simply never happen

The 3rd solution shall be authorized.. I am not even contradicting with Wolf's opinion over here on this one.

[JimQwilleran]

I just hate one thing. He always post about changes regarding everything else than bk doc. If anybody wants to change bk he always complains and says that everything is ok. No it's not ok, and I also am pro the solution with decreasing effecitves of the storms. Crawling in the middle of the road undetected by units nearby is RIDICULOUS

(look I worte it even bigger and more pinky than you! Jealous?)

[Krieger Blitzer]

Write it as much big as u want ^^

[Butterkeks]

The 3rd solution shall be authorized

Bow down and hear ye, for our all mighty Lord shares his wisdom with us!
Haha man, I'm so glad that I came here to "discuss" with yu, you are always worth a laugh

Would u like to bet it over my neck??!!

Even if the devs "only" delay it, it still was their decision, not yours.

[Butterkeks]

Write it as much big as u want ^^

XDDD

Wow...
I didn't think that it could become even more funny here, but again you outmatch my expectations

[JimQwilleran]

I didn't think that it could become even more funny here, but again you outmatch my expectations

Yes I always laugh too, until I start crying xD...

[Krieger Blitzer]

And that's total BS.
If you just increase it for Storms, nothing will happen to Recons and Snipers.
If the radius can only be increased for the troops (means: if it's not possible to increase the radius in which a unit is detected, but only the radius in which a certain unit detects other crews) there is for sure a solution for it.
E.g. increasing the detection radius for spotters and Recce, which gives every doc the ability to counter the evasive maneuver

Wait; what???!!! Such a disastrous way of thinking.
WTF really, learn how to spot them using just Jeeps or Recces next time. OMG this way u r not only intending to remove the Storm's crawling ability but also all the other crawling abilities.. As u obviously don't mind any kind of such a generally great detection radius rate increase against all hidden units too... If this would ever happen, u really don't mind??!! o.O U r seriously destroying the concept of it being as a 'game' like this!

[6thAirborneDivision]

So u r denying BOTH the solutions of delaying the ability with 4 CPs and also the other super dumb one of delaying it plus also increasing its detection rate...

You are right. What is left is the solution of increasing the detection rate alone!

Storms won't be delayed by 4 CP, only the crawling abilitiy wuold be delayed

Yeah of course, you are right. Forgot to just mention that, sorry. Edited it.

The 3rd solution shall be authorized

What are you, the King of Blitzkrieg? Do you even grant others an audience? Come on ... Wolf will be responsible enough to hear all opinions on here, not only yours, and even he could lern something new, we all can.

WTF really, learn how to spot them using just Jeeps or Recces next time..

And you should lern taking experiences of other decent allied players into account. Spotting these guys can be hard sometimes especially with CW. But that has been said a thousand times already but I don't think you noticed that ...
I am with you though that the detection radius of Recce's and other scoping units should not be increased.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Well, I am also an experienced US player btw.. and I do take in my account all others whom already agreed the 3rd solution as to become the best solution... So there is just no need to waste any more time for such a pointless discussion!

I am with you though that the detection radius of Recce's and other scoping units should not be increased.

Yes for sure, as well as the detection radius rate against the Storms or any other crawling or hiding unit.

[Butterkeks]

And that's total BS.
If you just increase it for Storms, nothing will happen to Recons and Snipers.
If the radius can only be increased for the troops (means: if it's not possible to increase the radius in which a unit is detected, but only the radius in which a certain unit detects other crews) there is for sure a solution for it.
E.g. increasing the detection radius for spotters and Recce, which gives every doc the ability to counter the evasive maneuver

Wait; what???!!! Such a disastrous way of thinking.
WTF really, learn how to spot them using just Jeeps or Recces next time. OMG this way u r not only intending to remove the Storm's crawling ability but also all the other crawling abilities.. As u obviously don't mind any kind of such a generally great detection radius rate increase against all hidden units too... If this would ever happen, u really don't mind??!! o.O U r seriously destroying the concept of it being as a 'game' like this!

Again Error 404... Man, maybe you should go to the Hospital and see a doctor...

Ok, as you apparently need a special treatment, I'll tell you a fourth time:
Delaying and "nerfing" the camouflage ability is not a removal.

Also, the increase of detection radius for recons is only a quick example if it would be not possible to decrease the "camouflage radius" of storms.

So I'll try to keep it as easy as possible, you seem to have problems with longer sentences.

My suggestion:
Delaying of evasive maneuver + decreasing the "camouflage radius".

If it is not possible to decrease the "camouflage radius", then I'm sure that there is another solution.

FOR EXAMPLE(!!) the increasing of the radius in which spotters detect hidden units.


I even wrote that this is just an example of what could be done, if it is not possible to decrease the "camouflage radius" only for Stormtroopers.

I don't know if this is possible or not. It would be great if somebody from the dev team could have a look at it and tell us what's technically possible and what is not.

As u obviously don't mind any kind of such a generally great detection radius rate increase against all hidden units too..

Where did I say that the radius should be "greatly increased"? As mentioned above, I said that this would be a possible solution and not by how much it should be increased.

WTF really, learn how to spot them using just Jeeps or Recces next time

I also already mentioned that. If there is a pak 38 for example you can't get close enough to detect it with a recce or jeep. Sometimes even a Pak36 is enough. Or even if there's an AT squad just standing around.

[Butterkeks]

Well, I am also an experienced US player btw.. and I do take in my account all others whom already agreed the 3rd solution as to become the best solution... So there is just no need to waste any more time for such a pointless discussion!

Oh man...

Yeah you only listen to people that think like you and everyone else is just wasting your time?

Well...
With that sentence you actually just shot yourself as it means that you are not able to participate in any kind of discussion. Pretty bad if you want to participate in a forum


Yeah and you are ONE player. Today THREE other experienced US players told you that you are wrong. Hm...

[Krieger Blitzer]

The camouflage radius is not coded as to become for the whole squad.. it's coded as to significantly become for each soldier of the squad.

[Butterkeks]

The camouflage radius is not coded as to become for the whole squad.. it's coded as to significantly become for each soldier of the squad.

Well, that solves the problem.

Therefore the camouflage radius of Stormtroopers can be decreased and we can stop talking about increasing the detection radius for Recons or Recces.

[6thAirborneDivision]

One thing is clear: Wolf will definitely not get around reconsidering the detection levels. Delaying the crawling ability is clearly something a hypocrite would do just to quickly calm the allied players down and basically giving the axis the same advantage as before. It would be a pseudo fix because after 4 CP's spent the situation will be again just like now with people complaining about it.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Each crawling soldier does obviously have an own camouflage radius.. whenever he is detected... Not all the rest of the squad is then also detected, if u get what I mean here I wonder! However that if any single man of the squad is suppressed then all the squad is suppressed too.
For this I believe that increasing the detection rate against the crawling units by decreasing the camouflage radius of soldiers won't only affect the Storms but also all the others including snipers, spotters and etc yet IF NOT MISTAKEN

But even if it's still anyhow easily possible to code ONLY for the Storm soldiers although I think it's not and it shouldn't happen anyways; I am afraid any changes here on this field would possibly bug out totally the crawling ability in a result.
SO Let's just leave the ability as it's meant since the vCoH! Again try to use Jeeps
Some people would tell u as well "Why are the Storms easier to get detected than snipers or spotters although they are elite units??!!"

So 4 CPs ability delay is more than enough for the Assault Storms... But the Demo Storms on the other hand shouldn't be limited to only a single one anymore as the cost should increase maybe to 300MP in order.

[Butterkeks]

But even if it's still anyhow easily possible to code ONLY for the Storm soldiers although I think it's not and it shouldn't happen anyways; I am afraid any changes here on this field would possibly bug out totally the crawling ability in a result.
SO Let's just leave the ability as it's meant since the vCoH!
Some people would tell u too "Why are the Storms easier to be detected than snipers or spotters although they are elite units??!!"

So 4 CPs ability delay is more than enough... But the Demo Storms on the other hand shouldn't be limited to only a single one anymore as the cost should increase maybe to 300MP in order.

Wow, this is impressive...
One page of discussion and you just state again your opinion unchanged, although three people tell you why you are "wrong".
I don't think I need to copy everything from above and post it here again, my suggestions are known.

Each crawling soldier does obviously have an own camouflage radius.. when he is detected... Not all the rest of the squad is then also detected, if u get what I mean here I wonder! However that if any single man of the squad is suppressed then all the squad is suppressed too.
For this I believe that increasing the detection rate against the crawling units by decreasing the camouflage radius of soldiers won't only affect the Storms but also all the others including snipers, spotters and etc yet IF NOT MISTAKEN

And again...

IF it's possible it can be done only for Storms. If not, I'm sure a solution or an aggreement can be found.

Regarding the suppresion:
This is another topic and should not be discussed here.


And especially because they are Elite inf they should be earlier detectable. Because they are just too strong like they are now.
SAS is also "elite inf" (although it's not performing like that), so why can't they crawl? Or the ranger infiltration squad? Or commandos? Or CQB squad?
Elite inf is no excuse here.

[Krieger Blitzer]

IF it's possible it can be done only for Storms. If not, I'm sure a solution or an aggreement can be found.

What makes u so sure? The camouflage radius should forever stay being equal beneath all the crawling soldiers regardless of which squad any of them is actually a part of!

And especially because they are Elite inf they should be earlier detectable. Because they are just too strong like they are now.
SAS is also "elite inf" (although it's not performing like that), so why can't they crawl? Or the ranger infiltration squad? Or commandos? Or CQB squad?
Elite inf is no excuse here.

And ya, for that the ability shall be delayed with 4 CPs only for the Assault Storms until the veterancy training item is finally unlocked ^^ My opinion here is known too.. and so I won't repeat it all anymore time again. Now let's just wait and see what is probably Wolf up to do...

[Butterkeks]

IF it's possible it can be done only for Storms. If not, I'm sure a solution or an aggreement can be found.

What makes u so sure?

Because unlike you most of the forum members and devs are open for aggreements.

Butterkeks wrote:
And especially because they are Elite inf they should be earlier detectable. Because they are just too strong like they are now.
SAS is also "elite inf" (although it's not performing like that), so why can't they crawl? Or the ranger infiltration squad? Or commandos? Or CQB squad?
Elite inf is no excuse here.

And ya, for that the ability shall be delayed with 4 CPs only for the Assault Storms until the veterancy training item is finally unlocked ^^

And that has to do with the fact that Allies don't have it because...?

Now let's just wait and see what is probably Wolf up to do...

The first time I aggree with you today.