Stormtroopers evasive manevures

[Erich]

i would choose the options 3 and 4 or limit the crawling making this ability only possible with 3 or 4 stgs,so storms cant crawl with mg34,AT or with stgs 5.


this ability is so arcade also in real life stormstroopers had this kind of job(get close and thrown grenades) but appear right next to you and kill everything in 2 secs? this is just bs.



Something have to be changed.

[Warhawks97]

i am sure that there are ways that "natural" invisibility from ambush position can be left untouched when only this crawling thing would be spotted earlier.

I dont think that storms would be useless even when removing this crawling thing entirely, lmao. They would still have excellent stats, weapons, abilties and ambush options.

However that u could still spot them more 'realistically' using Jeeps or recons.

how is that more realistic?:D

you think a normal (not blind men) cant see a men who is lying 3 meters away on a street? or very low grass?

[Krieger Blitzer]

i am sure that there are ways that "natural" invisibility from ambush position can be left untouched when only this crawling thing would be spotted earlier.

I dont think that storms would be useless even when removing this crawling thing entirely, lmao. They would still have excellent stats, weapons, abilties and ambush options.

EVEN IF it was anyhow possible to code this someways, the crawling ability of the Storms should never get excursively easier in order to be detectable! If then... It should be done for all the hiding units which is something that is surely going to harm the whole game concept as I explained already!!

how is that more realistic?:D

I meant that Jeeps and recons do spot the hiding things in a more realistic way.. from logic distances! Not too far, not too close.

you think a normal (not blind men) cant see a men who is lying 3 meters away on a street? or very low grass?

This is a realism argument. Of which I guess I replied considering it several times...

[Warhawks97]

Jeez.... tiger..... a unit in an ambush from a cover position is surely harder to detect then a men laying on a damn street. So why not making the crawl invisibility detectable earlier than a normal ambush? I mean alone the fact that you can move the unit without making it visible is a huge bonus already. That way you can make an ambush somewhere, kill passing enemies and moving then from one covered ambush position to another one while enemie bombs the old ambush position. There is no need to move towards an enemie inf squad completely stealthy without any cover option and to appear suddenly next to him.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I said it, and I repeat again... I am not with modifying exclusively the crawling ability of the Storms being easier to detect than the others of whom are having it too such as snipers, spotters or any other crawling unit.. of which is something that is surely going to harm the whole game concept if it's ever done! Lowering the value of Jeeps this way etc; as already explained.

The solution number 3 is just good:-

Alright... Demo Storms, and the Command Storms should be always able to crawl.

The normal Storms and the Suppression Storms should be still able to hide when in cover but can't crawl without the veterancy training item unlocked!

But then maybe they should be able to crawl even when the Schreck is equipped..

[ShadowIchigo]

Balnce first realism second.

That's exactly why I confirmed above that surely it might be somehow an arcade BS to see that they are still invisible although that the enemy soldiers are not being anyhow too far away from them by almost stepping on their heads!
But it's now fulfilling the game concept... ^^

However that u could still spot them more 'realistically' using Jeeps or recons.

but not all the brit docs have jeeps... and recces are such easy targets. even jeeps are.. the most safe, cheap, efficient, and effective is with scouts. Jeeps and bikes can easily get destroyed, and one shrek shot or pak shot (usually always hits and usually always a 1shot kill) will deny a brit any recon aside from leut and captain which are weak. Who wants to risk an expensive reccee for a hit or miss chance of finding any sturmz when advancing with their inf.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Oh come on Shadow, I play vs Sukin and he often detects my Storms so easily using Brits... Plus that ur viewpoint here on this one is obviously a one sided standpoint of which is clearly a whining post for the CW as u always keep playing almost only them! ^^

It has been even always working like as it is currently with the Storms since ages.. am I wrong I wonder?

The third solution is just enough as I said.

[Warhawks97]

Oh come on Shadow, I play vs Sukin and he often detects my Storms so easily using Brits... Plus that ur viewpoint here on this one is obviously a one sided standpoint of which is clearly a whining post for the CW as u always keep playing almost only them! ^^

It has been even always working like as it is currently with the Storms since ages.. am I wrong I wonder?

The third solution is just enough as I said.

its sukin men. Thing is you often keep your units relatively close together and sending single storm squads accross the map. He knows that and he also knows that you have seldomly something behind them. Many do send storms forward, keeping a puma (like the 75 mm stubby) behind it, or 50 mm pak to counter the recce in case.


Its really situational. As american i am in the more lucky situation to have m20 for good price and inf cheaper replacable and mor anti inf vehicles. But one "pop up squad kill" against CP and 300 mp gone.... make this twice and the brits has little chance to comeback and he must keep reproducing recces just to protect himself against that storms.



I would also say that beside sukin nobody used it really coz 90% of all stormtooper player just give schrecks and do hit and run. I also use often schrecks for them but i am generally more aggressive with axis as sukin is.

[Butterkeks]

Solution 3 sounds good, Wolf.

The third solution is just enough as I said.

Then why do you keep yelling about how every stealth unit should be detected from a bigger distance?


Regarding Snipers and Recon, it is and was in real life their job to remain undetected and be stealthy.
Stormtroopers' job was to break through enemy defense line and keep on pushing so the enemy won't have a chance to reorganise. So where did they need to remain stealthy?

Regarfin game balance:
Spotters and Snipers are Recon/far distance combat units that need to remain in stealth mode.
Stormtroopers are, as already said, the unit with nearly the best stats (or even with the best stats) who can have a MG, a Schreck and/ or STG 44. They are a powerfull combat unit, their captin can even make mortar strikes from ambushed position. Panzergrenadiers have the same equipment as Stormtroopers and perform outstanding without camo ability.

Tiger you somewhere wrote that if I have only storms I'll have nothing to counter armor doc. WTF?
If you keep on building Stormtroopers whilst facing armor doc it's your own fault. Also they don't perform to bad vs tanks. 2-3 Squads with only one schreck can take out any allied tank except for pershings and SP. And as mentioned, if you face armor doc you go for Tigers or Pz IV spam. Or AT-squads. Or Paks.

[Krieger Blitzer]

What do we add here to this topic with such a speech at the end?? ^^
I can see u also agreed the third solution as well already, without any extra ones of probably increasing their crawling ability detecting range exclusively as some requested so... Because of that simply I repeat again:-
Even if this anyhow possible to code; I believe it should never happen or then it would be supposedly affecting all the other hiding units too and not only the Storms.. so shortly I guess there is just no need to unnecessarily discuss further about what I said or what I didn't etc!

No to nerfing the crawl ability itself ONLY for the Storms being easier detectable.
Yes to the third solution!!

Plz end.

[ShadowIchigo]

What do we add here to this topic with such a speech at the end?? ^^
I can see u also agreed the third solution as well already, without any extra ones of probably increasing their crawling ability detecting range exclusively as some requested so... Because of that simply I repeat again:-
Even if this anyhow possible to code; I believe it should never happen or then it would be supposedly affecting all the other hiding units too and not only the Storms.. so shortly I guess there is just no need to unnecessarily discuss further about what I said or what I didn't etc!

No to nerfing the crawl ability itself ONLY for the Storms being easier detectable.
Yes to the third solution!!

Plz end.

You know tiger, i am all so very intrigued by you. I don't know how someone can say the same thing a million different times in a million different ways lol.

As for your battle with sukin, i can bet that you were not using the right tactics with the ambush and countering any detection unita. Just like warhawks said, 1-2 ambushed units in position were backed up by at, and maybe even snipers in my history of games. Then you have maybe one flanking away and around detector unit. This pertains to brit btw.. you can call it a whining post, but i like to think of it more as sharing my experiences. Now i would lean on that description of how you described my post as a "whining" one if i were like "oh please change this, its not fair i wont play this game.." etc etc. But i firmly state that these are just my opinions when i say WHAT i think it is that should be changed, and when you say WHAT it is, its always good to back it up WHY you think (in ex: experiences with previois game like i have previously stated). However, the most effective reason and support for your statement is to back it up with EVIDENCE! (Best example: Replays with all experienced players!, however, sometimes when unexperienced players are shown you can really catch an inbalance)

[Krieger Blitzer]

You know tiger, i am all so very intrigued by you. I don't know how someone can say the same thing a million different times in a million different ways lol.

Yes, actually... The 'contradistinction' concept.. has been always one of my most favorite arguing methods! ^^

[Warhawks97]

Even if this anyhow possible to code; I believe it should never happen or then it would be supposedly affecting all the other hiding units too and not only the Storms.. so shortly I guess there is just no need to unnecessarily discuss further about what I said or what I didn't etc!

You dont get it. Storms normal ambush (the one that occures automatically in cover) would keep untouched as for all other units. Only when they crawl arround (without cover) they would become easier to detect. Still it would enable you to get easier into deadly stg range. Its like a stealth figther... its not absolutely invisble to radars, just the RCS is smaller and so a radar identify it as a airplane and thus reducing the reaction time (depending on radar as well though). Same for storms, they would be able to decrease the reaction time for the enemie being right in range to use stgs effectively but they wouldnt pop up suddenly right 2 meters away from enemie soldier (when almost kissing his foot) and killing a squad (even elites) in less than a second.

But when you keep them in normal ambush nothing would change ONLY crawling ambush would be earlier detected to give at least some chance to the enemie to react and to retreat his unit.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Again;
If only the crawling ability of the Storms is anyhow going to be having any such kind of a more vulnerable invisibility radius to the surrounded enemy inf units, which is something totally not recommended by me.. then the same should actually happen for all the other units that are having the same of this crawling thing! Talking about the snipers, the spotters and etc...

Just deploy a Jeep or a scout and u will then detect them easier without being in need for this silly change.

[Warhawks97]

Again;
If only the crawling ability of the Storms is anyhow going to be having any such kind of a more vulnerable invisibility radius to the surrounded enemy inf units, which is something totally not recommended by me.. then the same should actually happen for all the other units that are having the same of this crawling thing! Talking about the snipers, the spotters and etc...

Just deploy a Jeep or a scout and u will then detect them easier without being in need for this silly change.

you have either not read the topic or you have literally thrown all statements of many experienced players blown in the wind. I am not repeating what has been said above by several players already.

[Krieger Blitzer]

While I do surely respect those experienced players who are believing that the change here should be made on the Storms crawling ability itself.. yet I do also respect myself, Wolf and the rest of those experienced players too whom are just fine with the third solution provided by Sukin! IF there was even any changes needed on this one.

[DaŇjeL_SK]

1st.... SS-stormtroopers have often 5vet too... and rifle section have high vet very often too
2nd... most of players use stormtroopers with schreck, so no crawling ability...
3rd.... what will be the poin of crawling (can be used only with antiinfantry guns) when will be every enemy infantry able to detect them like recons ?
4th... they were special infiltration infantry, so they should stay like infitration infantry...
... and to the end... they are bugged... they can't throw grenades over barrier and sometimes ambush do not work and u are masacred even by less vet units

[6thAirborneDivision]

I am not always sure about balancing suggestions, but with this one I am. Something has to be done. Currently the Stormtroopers are neither realistic nor fair. I had countless debates on this issue with various players and most of the time the conclusion was to simply increase the detection of a crawling unit like some experienced players also wrote on here. In my opinion it would not harm the power of the stoortroopers as hard as Tiger1996 propagates. They would still be able to pop up in front of an allied unit and kill the entire squad in a second, which can be frustrating. Is that really not enough?? Even if they are detected earlier by every allied unit (or maybe only infantry or only some vehicles, bonus when in a house; that can be discussed further ...) they still have a good chance to do some good damage to the opponent. Don't get me wrong, I don't want allied units to spot Stormtroopers like 100m away crawling but even a half blind man is able to spot some 6 heavily armed men right in front of him ...

Other crawling units like scouts and snipers can be discussed, but they should NOT be compared to the stormtroopers as an argument for not increasing the level of detection. Stormtroopers are way more devastating. Do people complain about scouts and snipers? No, these units seem to be widely accepted as they are right now. People are complaining about Stoormtroopers frequently also in ingame chat and I bet if the activity on this board would be somehow higher, you would have like the majority stating a significant change in detection levels.

On the other hand, if no significant changes are made to the Stoormtroopers, something has to be done with the recon balancing, especially for CW. I am not a CW fanboy and I am not whining right now, but did you ever play RAF against Storms and find yourself wasting tons of expensive Reece's just for scouting purpose to detect 6 men crawling around on a bare street? That truly is totally ridiculous. Captains and Lieutenants are too weak for the job and even though the Lieutenant is cheap, it will need like a year to build him.

Furthermore, in the past, some things have been removed because they were "unrealistic". I don't wanna waste time on that redundant realism thing but in this case, arguments concerning realism should be taken seriously ...

[Warhawks97]

I am not always sure about balancing suggestions, but with this one I am. Something has to be done. Currently the Stormtroopers are neither realistic nor fair. I had countless debates on this issue with various players and most of the time the conclusion was to simply increase the detection of a crawling unit like some experienced players also wrote on here. In my opinion it would not harm the power of the stoortroopers as hard as Tiger1996 propagates. They would still be able to pop up in front of an allied unit and kill the entire squad in a second, which can be frustrating. Is that really not enough?? Even if they are detected earlier by every allied unit (or maybe only infantry or only some vehicles, bonus when in a house; that can be discussed further ...) they still have a good chance to do some good damage to the opponent. Don't get me wrong, I don't want allied units to spot Stormtroopers like 100m away crawling but even a half blind man is able to spot some 6 heavily armed men right in front of him ...

Other crawling units like scouts and snipers can be discussed, but they should NOT be compared to the stormtroopers as an argument for not increasing the level of detection. Stormtroopers are way more devastating. Do people complain about scouts and snipers? No, these units seem to be widely accepted as they are right now. People are complaining about Stoormtroopers frequently also in ingame chat and I bet if the activity on this board would be somehow higher, you would have like the majority stating a significant change in detection levels.

On the other hand, if no significant changes are made to the Stoormtroopers, something has to be done with the recon balancing, especially for CW. I am not a CW fanboy and I am not whining right now, but did you ever play RAF against Storms and find yourself wasting tons of expensive Reece's just for scouting purpose to detect 6 men crawling around on a bare street? That truly is totally ridiculous. Captains and Lieutenants are too weak for the job and even though the Lieutenant is cheap, it will need like a year to build him.

Furthermore, in the past, some things have been removed because they were "unrealistic". I don't wanna waste time on that redundant realism thing but in this case, arguments concerning realism should be taken seriously ...

+1

[Krieger Blitzer]

Yeah, u r right... Something has to be done.. and so for that we already said that the Assault Storm's shouldn't be able to crawl anymore without the veterancy training unlock! However that they shall be still able to hide when behind cover.

Also, the PanzerSchreck upgrade should not prevent their crawling any longer in a result.. the rest of the Storm units excepting probably the Suppression Storms as well... Would be still able to crawl or to hide normally without any unlocks. But the Demo Storms then wouldn't be limited to only a single one any longer as their cost might increase to 280MP instead of currently just 250MP being limited to 3 squads in order!! They are just 4 men whom aren't able to upgrade any LMGs or PanzerSchrecks on the other hand; fair enough now I guess, as they won't have such a brutality as the Assault Storms anyhow

[Butterkeks]

Also, the PanzerSchreck upgrade should not prevent their crawling any longer in a result..

Of course, get rid of an atm OP ability by making it even more OP... Why did nobody consider this before?

Well so much for sarcasm. Giving Stormtroopers the ability to crawl even with a Schreck is just too OP. Atm I go to cap a point, suddenly 6 heavily armed men jump out of some bushes and kill my inf. Therefore I go first with some tanks like Recce to detect hidden units.
With this ability I would drive with my Recce, suddenly these 6 men are jumping out of the bushes and kill the recce + inf with ease.
If you want to state now that AT Teams are also ambushed, don't forget that they can't crawl to their destination. Therefore, with a good Recon I am able to see where my oppenent hides them. Storms just crawl from base to mid and are invisible the whole way. (Also actually nobody hides AT Teams but uses them for silly frontal rushes).

Demo Storms then wouldn't be limited to only a single one any longer as their cost might increase to 280MP instead of currently just 250MP being limited to 3 squads in order!! They are just 4 men whom aren't able to upgrade any LMGs or PanzerSchrecks on the other hand; fair enough now I guess, as they won't have such a brutality as the Assault Storms anyhow

Yeah of course, they are just a super cheap inf squad that can crawl, throw grenade bundles, satchel charges(iirc), can plant explosives and can be equipped with 4 STG44. And that for 250 MP. So don't say they aren't as brutal as Storms.
And that +30 MP price increase you suggested will change nothing. I mean come on. 30 MP? That's like 5 seconds delay.

I still think solution 3 is the best, with a higher detection radius for Storms (not Recons/Snipers). If the crawl ability will be unlocked by Veterancy training with no further changes you are only "delaying" the problem.
Evasive manevures comes now later, but will still be as brutal for brits as it is now. Actually even more dangerous because you never know when these Stormtroopers will gain the ability.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Of course, get rid of an atm OP ability by making it even more OP... Why did nobody consider this before?

Well so much for sarcasm. Giving Stormtroopers the ability to crawl even with a Schreck is just too OP. Atm I go to cap a point, suddenly 6 heavily armed men jump out of some bushes and kill my inf. Therefore I go first with some tanks like Recce to detect hidden units.
With this ability I would drive with my Recce, suddenly these 6 men are jumping out of the bushes and kill the recce + inf with ease.
If you want to state now that AT Teams are also ambushed, don't forget that they can't crawl to their destination. Therefore, with a good Recon I am able to see where my oppenent hides them. Storms just crawl from base to mid and are invisible the whole way. (Also actually nobody hides AT Teams but uses them for silly frontal rushes).


I still think solution 3 is the best, with a higher detection radius for Storms (not Recons/Snipers). If the crawl ability will be unlocked by Veterancy training with no further changes you are only "delaying" the problem.
Evasive manevures comes now later, but will still be as brutal for brits as it is now. Actually even more dangerous because you never know when these Stormtroopers will gain the ability.

Are u aware of that delaying this ability to become available ONLY with the veterancy training unlock is something that would cost the Blitz doc player 4 more CPs?? It means that now he will have to decide or to choose between going for trades, mass productions, tigers or purely just Storms!!
Haha.. but now u want to delay it and also increase the detection radius???!!! This is funny... As they were 2 different separately provided ideas or solutions btw, but it's more like if u r telling to totally remove the ability this way o.O

But alright though.. maybe they should remain being unable to crawl with Schrecks after such a big nerf already through greatly delaying the ability BUT SURELY WITHOUT increasing the detection radius too on the other hand!
As that u will still have to keep in mind that even by having any high Vet lvl of Storm units with plenty of inf kills as well doesn't or can't be the lonely reason of which will make u win the whole battle or yet causing u any kind of victory at the end I meant. Specifically as an example when u ever fight against the Armor doc at any possible point!

Yeah of course, they are just a super cheap inf squad that can crawl, throw grenade bundles, satchel charges(iirc), can plant explosives and can be equipped with 4 STG44. And that for 250 MP. So don't say they aren't as brutal as Storms.
And that +30 MP price increase you suggested will change nothing. I mean come on. 30 MP? That's like 5 seconds delay.

They don't spawn with any MP44s equipped by default unlike the Assault Storm squad.. they don't have Schrecks, also they don't get LMG42s... Which means u will still have a lot of much better chances to survive them even if they at anytime surprise ur troops from an ambush!!!

[Butterkeks]

but it's more like if u r telling to totally remove the ability this way o.O

Yeah of course, the delaying and nerfing of an ability is like removing it...

through greatly delaying the ability BUT SURELY WITHOUT increasing the detection radius too on the other hand!

I really don't understand it, do you think your argument get's better when you write it in Caps?
The thing is, why should anything change when the ability is simply delayed? It only means that now instead of crawling vet 0 storms suddenly there are vet 4 storms crawling around everywhere.
So it basically means that I "only" have to get the points for veterancy training and everything is like it is now. The ability itself remains as strong as it is now. Therefore the higher detection radius, as this would solve the problem insteadof only delaying it.

As that u will still have to keep in mind that even by having any high Vet lvl of Storm units with plenty of inf kills as well doesn't or can't be the lonely reason of which will make u win the whole battle or yet causing u any kind of victory at the end I meant. Specifically as an example when u ever fight against the Armor doc at any possible point!

I never stated that. But I saw Cyber often enough play with BK and shredding entire armies only with Stormtroopers and also killing the base with them. (Führungsstoßtrupp in crawling mode, mortar VT on base defense)

They don't spawn with any MP44s equipped by default unlike the Assault Storm squad.. they don't have Schrecks, also they don't get LMG42s... Which means u will still have a lot of much better chances to survive them even if they at anytime surprise ur troops from an ambush!!!

Learn how to read bro.

and can be equipped with 4 STG44

You can equip the demo squad with 4 STG44 with 100 ammo. They are highly effective vs any kind of defense line and cn be used to secure points that are not directly at the front line. Crawl mode, 4 STG44, enemy comes with a single inf squad to cap the point, the slaughter begins. And all this for 250 MP (and 100 ammo, although even two STG44 are enough to wipe out an entire squag at medium to short distance).

[Krieger Blitzer]

Delaying it might be fine as we are suggesting already... But delaying with 4 CPs + nerfing it at the same time by increasing the detection radius is nothing but a silly joke of which would never happen I believe! Ever tried to use Recces, Jeeps or just spotters in order to detect them normally I wonder?? 2 Snipers behind and the whole squad would be wiped out instantly as that the Demo Stroms are only 4 men of whom AREN'T equipped with any MP44s by default.. without an availability as well of any LMG42s or PanzerSchrecks for 280 or 300MP and not 250!!

But well, also on the other hand the Combat Engineers are available since the start with an absolutely no need of any CPs only for 300MP while having 6 Grease SMGs equipped for free o.O Sten Commandos are fking deadly too whenever they successfully land early with Gliders right onto Mortars, helpless Volks with Kar98s or HMG42s; being in an extremely close combat range fighting.
Not to mention about the CQBs btw

[Butterkeks]

Recces, Jeeps or just spotters in order to detect them normally I wonder? 2 Snipers behind and the whole squad would be wiped out instantly

And if there is an At Gun? No chance to detect it with vehicles.
Two snipers behind it? Of course, because I have nothing else to do with my snipers... You have your snipers normally at a fixed position where they have a good overview and can kill on a distant range. I never saw anyone using two snipers at a single point on the map, just for the chance of finding an ambushed squad. Maybe only RAF with the kangaroo, but that's one out of 6 possible doctrines, so there are 5 left who can't do it. Or actually only three as rits can only build snipers in RAF.
And as we are talking mainly about brits, there would be no chance to kill em for 2 out of 3 docs.

as that the Demo Stroms are only 4 men of whom AREN'T equipped with any MP44s by default

Do you even brain?
Another time...
Of course they are not equiped with STG44 at the beginning, but they CAN BE EQUIPED with 4 STG44. Jesus...

without an availability as well of any LMG42s or PanzerSchrecks for 280 or 300MP and not 250!!

Yes, but with nade bundles, satchel charges and explosives. Means I can let them crawl, throw a nade bundle while crawling and then let them stand up and kill whats left.
And yeah, adding +30 MP or +50 MP is just a delay of some seconds. And therefore having 3 of them? No thanks.
What I'm saying is:
If you have a Pak, enemy can't detect them. As they can crawl to their destination, recon also has no use. When securing a point they don't need a lmg as they just stand up right in front of the enemy and wipe out the squad. After that you let them crawl to another position and enemy arty or mortar won't kill shit.
Understood?

But well, also on the other hand the Combat Engineers are available since the start with an absolutely no need of any CPs only for 300MP while having 6 Grease SMGs equipped for free o.O Sten Commandos are fking deadly too whenever they successfully land early with Gliders right onto Mortars, helpless Volks with Kar98s or HMG42s; being in an extremely close combat range fighting.

Yeah, you even said it. Fucking deadly on extremely close combat range. With combat engineers you first have to get to the unit you are killing. Commandos to and the glider can be easily shot down. STG44 is deadily on close, medium and sometimes even on long distance. That's the difference.

Allies have more free or cheaper MP upgrades because they can only kill effectively on close range. Squads with STG44 don't need to get so close to be deadly, that's why they are more expensive to equip.
And Reg 5 and Gebirgsjäger come with 6 FG42 or 6 G43 + a Schreck or an LMG34 for "free" (not regarding the drop cost of 550 MP). And these units kill very effective on EVERY distance + they can kill tanks.