Reworking of Axis docs?

[Butterkeks]

So my suggestion would be the following:

At the moment we have these docs:

Brits:
- Royal Artillery: A doc which is highly focused on Arty, no special tanks, no special inf.
- Royal Airforce: A doc which is highly focused on Infantry, no special tanks, no arty (but bombers).
- Royal Engineers: A doc which is highly focused on tanks, no special infantry, medium arty (low range 95mm or pay-per-shot-AVRE with also low range).

Amis:
- Airborne: A doc highly focused on Infantry, no special tanks, nearly no artillery (Pack howitzer which is never build, but therefore bombers)
- Armor: A doc highly focused on tanks, no special infantry, low arty support (Calliope)
- Infantry: A doc mainly focused on infantry and building defenses, but also with good arty support and some tanks (Jumbo, E8...)

Panzerelite:
- Tankhunter: A doc mainly focused on the building of tankhunters, no special infantry, low arty support (Hotchkiss)
- Luft: A doc mainly focused on infantry, but with good arty (Nebels, Flak 88 Arty VT) and some tanks (Panther D, Hetzer...)
- Scorched Earth: A doc mainly focused on Artillery, but with good infantry support (Thanks to flame nades) and good tank support (Nashorn, Beutepanzer)

Wehrmacht:
- Def doc A doc mainly focused on the building of defenses and arty, but with good tank support (Elefant, Sturmpanzer IV)
- Blitzkrieg: An absolute allrounder doc, Best inf in game, Good Arty, Very good Tanks (Panthers, Tigers, Pz. IV H)
- Terror: An absolute allrounder doc, Very good inf, Good Arty, Very good tanks (Panther G, KT)



So this is a problem which always occured in many other posts: Allies have highly specialised doctrines, Axis more the allrounder ones. Normally, the suggestions are like "Remove Unit/ability X from Doc Y, that should fix issue Z".

My suggestion now goes further. With the old modding team around Xalibur and Ruhrpottpatriot it was planned to do a complete rework on the Axis doctrines, in order to specialise them more and forcing Axis also to more teamplay. Sadly, the both retired before finishing the work. But as you can see, Allies have clear docs, like armor doc - tanks, airborne doc - inf etc. while the Axis have more docs like BK (Tanks, inf, arty) and Terror (again Tanks, inf, arty).

So here we go:

Brits:
As mentioned above, the doctrines of Brits are already highly specialised, imo there's no need to change anything.

Amis:
Actually the same as with Brits in my opinion. Excpet for Inf doc, maybe there is a possibility to change that "allrounder" doc but to be honest I have no suggestion about that.

PE:
Well, I like the three docs, as they are actually completely different to each other, here I would suggest to remove/add some units from certain docs or change some abilities in order to create more unique docs. For Example:

- removal of Beutepanzer from SE. Tank support is either the WH player or TH doc, but not SE.
- removal of Nebelwerfer and Panther D from Luftwaffe. Arty should come from SE player, Tank support either from WH player ot TH doc

WH:
- Def doc is actually quite ok imo. Except for Grens it doesn't have too much to attack (which also isn't the purpose of it!).
- BK doc: Well this is quite a hard one. As the "Blitzkrieg" is a strategy that focuses on fast movements and tactics, I would suggest to change it to a more tank focused doc, changing it from an allrounder doc to the Axis "armor" doc. This means no more stormtroopers and maybe no Maultier but more for example Tiger and KT etc.
- Terror Doc: The old modders planned to rework the Terror doc to the so called "Propaganda doc" or "Ersatzheer doc". I loved the suggestion so I want to bring it up once again

This doc was considered to focus around the Ersatzheer, or the "replacement army" in english. The purpose of this part of the army was to train new soldiers and to test new equipment. During the years 1941-1943 the Ersatzheer had about 2 Million soldiers, but this amount dropped significantly in they years 1944-45 when all soldiers were needed on the frontline. But so much for history

So the idea was basically the following: As the Ersatzheer had nearly zero combat experience, they start with quite crappy units, but also quite big ones. Let me just do a quick example:
You start with a normal pioneer unit. This unit now has i.e. 10 soldiers. But therefore, they have a lower HP, accuracy etc. Same for Volks etc. The best unit you can build starts out as a unit that could be compared to PE Grens. Now as you unlock your tech tree, your units become more powerfull, leading them to be the best inf if you unlocked the whole tech tree, maybe also for sacrificing unit size. This would mean, Pioneers get, dunno, maybe two STG44 from beginning, but the unit drops from 10 to 8 guys.
As the Ersatzheer tested new equipment, there would be also the possibility to give them some prototypes. But it was planned to focuse on infantry, so they have no heavy tank support.



Of course this is a very, very, very raw suggestion. I couldn't go more in detail as I don't have a specific plan for the allof this, if these changes are wished by the devs and community, it should be made together, so everybody is satisfied (or nearly everybody, you never get 100% ^^)
But I would really appreciate a good discussion about it, especially if the dev team could join in and tell us if it would be possible or not. (No need for discussion if it can't be changed for any reasons^^)

Thanks for reading

[Warhawks97]

So my suggestion would be the following:

At the moment we have these docs:

Brits:
- Royal Artillery: A doc which is highly focused on Arty, no special tanks, no special inf.
- Royal Airforce: A doc which is highly focused on Infantry, no special tanks, no arty (but bombers).
- Royal Engineers: A doc which is highly focused on tanks, no special infantry, medium arty (low range 95mm or pay-per-shot-AVRE with also low range).

True. RE has combat sappers but idk if we can count them as kind of "special" inf. The combat value is low. A tricky glider drop sometimes myabe but thats it. So agreed here.

Amis:
- Airborne: A doc highly focused on Infantry, no special tanks, nearly no artillery (Pack howitzer which is never build, but therefore bombers)
- Armor: A doc highly focused on tanks, no special infantry, low arty support (Calliope)
- Infantry: A doc mainly focused on infantry and building defenses, but also with good arty support and some tanks (Jumbo, E8...)

Inf doc has pack howitzer but only in fhq for 400/25 and need of supply yard. When it comes enemie has bombed you already apart. Its easier to get a 105 howitzer as a pack howitzer, lmao. E8 in inf doc? oO

Panzerelite:
- Tankhunter: A doc mainly focused on the building of tankhunters, no special infantry, low arty support (Hotchkiss)
- Luft: A doc mainly focused on infantry, but with good arty (Nebels, Flak 88 Arty VT) and some tanks (Panther D, Hetzer...)
- Scorched Earth: A doc mainly focused on Artillery, but with good infantry support (Thanks to flame nades) and good tank support (Nashorn, Beutepanzer)

PE has always special inf. I highly like PE inf, esspecially with SE doc. Sniper and several upgrades like advanced repairs, doctrinal abilities, 7 men, faster capture speed etc. So PE is always a capable inf doc. So inf with PE is never a problem and you can always compete with any allied elite inf. SE is most versatile.

Wehrmacht:
- Def doc A doc mainly focused on the building of defenses and arty, but with good tank support (Elefant, Sturmpanzer IV)
- Blitzkrieg: An absolute allrounder doc, Best inf in game, Good Arty, Very good Tanks (Panthers, Tigers, Pz. IV H)
- Terror: An absolute allrounder doc, Very good inf, Good Arty, Very good tanks (Panther G, KT)

WE, yeah. My fav faction. Cheap inf which is still till late game very good for ranged support, strong basic inf which is boosted in two docs, one has strongest elite inf in game and also strong medium tanks, strong heavies, not lacking arty (esspecially counting the super range arty for free unit stuh to it) and decent anti air. The other two very strong arty, powerfull tanks and one with strong defense capabilities as well.



But i would make things a bit different:
Axis PE:

PE SE doc:
- can actually stay as it is. What bugs me a bit that on long games, 3 vs 3 and 4 vs 4, the arty strenght of this doc is kind of infinite. Skilled SE player using the combo of Hummels with ammo HT, res trade and also two wespes for maxium VT efficency is surely epic. In early stage CW arty is better, late game SE is for me the top arty doc. Besdie that the booby traps and snipers can make the life hard for allis as well. The only thing i could agree with is the beutesherman removal replaced with heavy 120 mortar unlock.
- Sector arty should not be usable on enemie or neutral territory and instead only on friendly.
- Sabotage some ammo cost.

The focus should be on slowing and interruping the enemie advance wth help of tankbuster, snipers, traps. Hetzer and Nashorn should require no unlock of Tank IV and also less CP in return for +1CP in arty subtree for unlock of wespe.


PE Luft doc:
- removal of Nebler
- changed naked 88. It should receive normal damage from arty and 75 range like paks and emplaced 88. In return arty barrage to 88.
- changed Sd2 (idk, less spam, no affect against tanks or by far less since they are anti inf mines, higher cost and recharge, maybe changed completely)
- Panther D should stay.
- Optional Tank IV removal and instead as unlock cheaper stationary 20 mm canons.


The main focus here should be on ambushes, skirmishing the enemie, Anti air and some arty support.

PE Th doc:
Even if called TH doc axis generally dont really lack in AT power. so:
- Generally the doc can stay as it is. Still i am not sure to add Panther G to it removing the Nashorn.
- Bergetiger should be only available to TH doc, not in all PE docs. In return it can only repair tanks, NOT bunkers etc. The repair speed keeps as it is (or even higher).

WE:
- If rangers would become special inf doc units, then Grens would lose their schrecks. Having hendheld AT then only in special AT squads or elite forces (luft, ranger, AB). Optional grens would have Panzerfaust as standard like Volksgrens, can be discussed.

WE Def doc:
- Bunkers should need that 1 CP unlock and only available in def doc.
- Grille in an arty tree and stupa reward to stuh in BK doc
- Grens should have no stgs here. Instead an option to get lmg´s cheaper or second lmg available among with the infantry defense training.
- unemplaced 88 changed like luft doc 88. Normal range and normal damage taken by arty hits. Arty barrage exist already.
- Arty strenght keeps as it is.

That doc would be focused on defense and heavier arty support but also anti air.

WE Terror:
For terror i had long time ago changes suggested.
- CP unlock for walking stuka. 2 CP at least.
- Just a thought, Moving 210 nebler from SE to Terror doc. Just i think the nebler VT would become freaking OP then. So i think its not such a good idea.
- Heavy tanks that screw the enemie. I thought to make terror into an Tiger doc. They would have the Tiger late version as reward.
- Panther G removed and instead Tiger and KT would be slightly earlier available.

This doc would be focused on Rocket arty and Tiger tanks. The Grens would seem so far superior anymore if the M1 Garand would work properly capable of killing inf at distance.

WE BK:
Thats veeeery tricky. Blitzkrieg describes actually how all the different units and weapon systems are being brought together to achieve a quick victory. For that it needs simply Airplanes, arty, fast tanks but also breakhtrough tanks (in the later axis tactically thoughts), mechanized elite infantry like the stormtroopers and maybe even anti air. So in short we can put stuka bomber, hummel arty, walking stuka and all battletanks in that single doc. Thing is its questionable if it makes sense for the balance. So i would even say that the entire doc would need a new name coz with this name we can put everything into that doc and it would be ok. The Blitzkrieg made by axis should actually be only able when all doctrines working together properly.

Another option is to keep the name and keep focusing more on the "basics" of the Blitzkrieg stragtey which got made in france. The Tiger Tank got developed to bring the Blitzkrieg strategy to perfection but in fact, when it came, the Axis days of Blitzkrieg had been gone. So i would then focus the doctrine on parts of the Blitzkrieg strategy.


Option 1:
- Doctrine has only tank IV H/J as armor support.
- Panthers and Tigers removed
- Stuka Bombers (with short cooldown)
- assault tanks relatively cheap, therefore no more super range. Also capable of using smoke rounds (like stug III) and infantry boost abilties for nearby inf.

cheap and fast units, emplacment breaker and air support, but no big tanks.

Option 2:
- Tank IV´s and Panthers (Panther G optional)
- Assault tanks like in option 1
- No air support this time or less than in option one (longer cooldown)
- No Tigers

Option 3:
- Tank IV´s and Tiger Tanks
- Walking stuka unlock
- No stuka airplane support or any other air support.
- assault tanks as in option 1

Option 4:
- Tank IV and Tigers
- assault tanks as in option 1
- all other stuff keeps as it is.

Option 5:
- we keep it as it is so far (tanks the doc has currently and the inf)
- Assault tanks simply no super range units.
- AA Tank not affected by tank IV mass prod, maybe even moved to Luft doc.

In any case the Ostwind should NOT be affected by Tank IV mass production. Even though it uses tank IV chassis, this tank is very deadly to airplanes and inf. Also Wirbelwind and ostwind had been more rare as tigers. I see no need to have ostwind as a spam unit. Optional the ostwind could be moved to air doc, making the luft doc a more focused anti air doc.

I want the Panther in at least 3 axis docs, tiger in 1-2. One Panther D in luft, one G and one A (with G as reward). Most preferable Th doc with Panther G instead of nashorn. But where to give what to WH. Terror sounds for me simply for tiger tanks, esspecially KT. But BK, idk to be honest. As i said, the doc name would allow to add everything into it. for BK doc option 5 is my fav. The AA options would be weaker, stuh wouldnt be "arty for free" or "camp and use super range" unit anymore and would need to be used smarter. Being then cheaper and more options to boost nearby inf and smoke launcher.



CW:

CW in all docs are very specialised so i think they all can stay as they are in their set up. BUT.

CW RE:
- The heavy spearfire arty ability for 150 or 200 ammo from RA doc could be moved to RE doc. In RA nobody uses it as priest is better and ammo is used for priests only while RE sits always on endless ammounts of ammo.
- The unlock of churchills should be:
95 mm churchill-> MK VI (which should actually be Mk VII)-> AVRE, MK VII crocc. The crocc then not as Ace, in return cheaper


US:

Generally:
-The M1 should be better for ranged fights. Bolt action or not, its afterall a rifle with long barrel and large cartrigde and high V/o. I mean whats the point of an rifle if it cant kill anything at distance and when there are Mpi´s for short ranged fights.

- M10 as standard 0 CP TD for all US forces.


US Armor doc:
- This doc should have everything that is called sherman tank, lmao.
- Rangers removed, combat engineers added
- 105 sherman+ calli in one unlock. Numbers discussable.
- containing ALL jumbo shermans, not affected by any mass prod upgrade.
- No Super Pershing
- Global war machinery should not replace pershings (and jubmos), therefore cheaper.

It sounds OP having all that stuff BUT, the huge BUT: no fuel-> you have nothing. Also when players waste ammo for calli and arty sherman they then would have nothing to crack axis super heavy tanks and even Panther tanks. But that doc would be the american breakhtrough spearhead mod such as RE royal engineers and axis BK/Terror doc and even TH doc to a certain extent with Panthers, Jagdpanthers and JT.

US Inf doc:
- Jumbo sherman moved to armor doc.
- Rangers as elite unit, NOT affected by mass prod anymore. Strenght comparable to grens, just ambush options, special abilities like suppression removal, smoke nades, satchels etc. Also vet upgrade would give them vet 1 like other vet upgrades doing it.
- Combat engineers moved to armor doc
- Removal of 105 sherman (! read further)
- The doc would have 75 mm HT like CW arty doc, therefore 75 mm pack howitzer only in AB doc.
- as 105 arty only howitzers.
- 105 sherman unlock and M10 (which wont require unlock) slots replaced by:
- VT unlock. VT would cost 75 ammo instead of 50, available for spotter and captain and 90-100 activation range.
- Vet upgrade for Rifle Squads? reduced cost of emplacments? Rifle squads spawn with rifle nade upgrade? Engineers buffed and greae gun upgrade available?

The doc would be a mix of defense and arty support but also with elite inf (which wont be as strong as axis elites but still). Arty would be provided from light mobile arty, stationary heavier and off map. Tank support would consist only of basic m10 and shermans and 76 shermans. If you might be scared nobody would spend fuel anymore for anything i would say people would maybe use now more cheap rifle squads pared with normal shermans instead of late game ranger blobb. I think i would do so.



US AB:
- supply drop and pak unlock independent. Pak drop enables 57 mm and 76 mm pak drop.
- Bomber patrole bombs emplacments and bunkers in the area.


Add to that picture: Cheaper vehicles, medium paks from 250 to 270-280 mp, US 76 to 330 or 340 MP and axis heavy to 360 MP. I think its neccessary to mention again to get the picture of how the docs would work in it among with the dynamic changes this changes would also bring to the game.

[Butterkeks]

E8 in inf doc? oO

My bad^^ As i already mentioned I hardly play with tanks, so I guess it's the 76(w)?

PE has always special inf.

What I meant with special inf is inf that is only available in certain docs, like reg 5 or Gebirgsjäger. Therefore TH has no "Special inf"

PE SE doc:
- can actually stay as it is. What bugs me a bit that on long games, 3 vs 3 and 4 vs 4, the arty strenght of this doc is kind of infinite. Skilled SE player using the combo of Hummels with ammo HT, res trade and also two wespes for maxium VT efficency is surely epic. In early stage CW arty is better, late game SE is for me the top arty doc. Besdie that the booby traps and snipers can make the life hard for allis as well. The only thing i could agree with is the beutesherman removal replaced with heavy 120 mortar unlock.
- Sector arty should not be usable on enemie or neutral territory and instead only on friendly.
- Sabotage some ammo cost.

The focus should be on slowing and interruping the enemie advance wth help of tankbuster, snipers, traps. Hetzer and Nashorn should require no unlock of Tank IV and also less CP in return for +1CP in arty subtree for unlock of wespe.

Agreed.

[Butterkeks]

PE Luft doc:
- removal of Nebler
- changed naked 88. It should receive normal damage from arty and 75 range like paks and emplaced 88. In return arty barrage to 88.
- changed Sd2 (idk, less spam, no affect against tanks or by far less since they are anti inf mines, higher cost and recharge, maybe changed completely)
- Panther D should stay.
- Optional Tank IV removal and instead as unlock cheaper stationary 20 mm canons.


The main focus here should be on ambushes, skirmishing the enemie, Anti air and some arty support.

I agree with the first three points. I would prefer a Panther D removal as it makes no sense to me. Luftwaffe bringing heavy tanks on the field? Wud?
But I like the last point very much.
I agree with your conclusion, ambushes, AA and arty support limited to 88s (as they were often used in fact).

PE Th doc:
Even if called TH doc axis generally dont really lack in AT power. so:
- Generally the doc can stay as it is. Still i am not sure to add Panther G to it removing the Nashorn.
- Bergetiger should be only available to TH doc, not in all PE docs. In return it can only repair tanks, NOT bunkers etc. The repair speed keeps as it is (or even higher).

Panther G... Dunno. It's the tank HUNTER doc, not the battle tank doc
Agreed with Bergetiger.

WE Def doc:
- Bunkers should need that 1 CP unlock and only available in def doc.
- Grille in an arty tree and stupa reward to stuh in BK doc
- Grens should have no stgs here. Instead an option to get lmg´s cheaper or second lmg available among with the infantry defense training.
- unemplaced 88 changed like luft doc 88. Normal range and normal damage taken by arty hits. Arty barrage exist already.
- Arty strenght keeps as it is.

That doc would be focused on defense and heavier arty support but also anti air.

Agreed.

WE Terror:
For terror i had long time ago changes suggested.
- CP unlock for walking stuka. 2 CP at least.
- Just a thought, Moving 210 nebler from SE to Terror doc. Just i think the nebler VT would become freaking OP then. So i think its not such a good idea.
- Heavy tanks that screw the enemie. I thought to make terror into an Tiger doc. They would have the Tiger late version as reward.
- Panther G removed and instead Tiger and KT would be slightly earlier available.

This doc would be focused on Rocket arty and Tiger tanks. The Grens would seem so far superior anymore if the M1 Garand would work properly capable of killing inf at distance.

Not agreed. In this case we actually still have the same doctrine. In this case, I assume you wouldn't like the idea of having the "Ersatzheer-Doktrin". Regarding this point I'd like to have the opinion of other forum members. If the devs or the community don't want it, I fully agree with Warhawk's suggestions.

Option 1:
- Doctrine has only tank IV H/J as armor support.
- Panthers and Tigers removed
- Stuka Bombers (with short cooldown)
- assault tanks relatively cheap, therefore no more super range. Also capable of using smoke rounds (like stug III) and infantry boost abilties for nearby inf.

cheap and fast units, emplacment breaker and air support, but no big tanks.

I like this option most for Blitzkrieg Doc.



Regarding Brits:
As I said, I don't think that they need a rework. But your changes won't have a big impact on balance etc. so I can live with that.

US Armor doc:
- This doc should have everything that is called sherman tank, lmao.
- Rangers removed, combat engineers added
- 105 sherman+ calli in one unlock. Numbers discussable.
- containing ALL jumbo shermans, not affected by any mass prod upgrade.
- No Super Pershing
- Global war machinery should not replace pershings (and jubmos), therefore cheaper.

It sounds OP having all that stuff BUT, the huge BUT: no fuel-> you have nothing. Also when players waste ammo for calli and arty sherman they then would have nothing to crack axis super heavy tanks and even Panther tanks. But that doc would be the american breakhtrough spearhead mod such as RE royal engineers and axis BK/Terror doc and even TH doc to a certain extent with Panthers, Jagdpanthers and JT.

Totally agreed.

US Inf doc:
- Jumbo sherman moved to armor doc.
- Rangers as elite unit, NOT affected by mass prod anymore. Strenght comparable to grens, just ambush options, special abilities like suppression removal, smoke nades, satchels etc. Also vet upgrade would give them vet 1 like other vet upgrades doing it.
- Combat engineers moved to armor doc
- Removal of 105 sherman (! read further)
- The doc would have 75 mm HT like CW arty doc, therefore 75 mm pack howitzer only in AB doc.
- as 105 arty only howitzers.
- 105 sherman unlock and M10 (which wont require unlock) slots replaced by:
- VT unlock. VT would cost 75 ammo instead of 50, available for spotter and captain and 90-100 activation range.
- Vet upgrade for Rifle Squads? reduced cost of emplacments? Rifle squads spawn with rifle nade upgrade? Engineers buffed and greae gun upgrade available?

The doc would be a mix of defense and arty support but also with elite inf (which wont be as strong as axis elites but still). Arty would be provided from light mobile arty, stationary heavier and off map. Tank support would consist only of basic m10 and shermans and 76 shermans. If you might be scared nobody would spend fuel anymore for anything i would say people would maybe use now more cheap rifle squads pared with normal shermans instead of late game ranger blobb. I think i would do so.



US AB:
- supply drop and pak unlock independent. Pak drop enables 57 mm and 76 mm pak drop.
- Bomber patrole bombs emplacments and bunkers in the area.

Also totally agreed.

So the suggested rework get's a more clearly picture. Big thank you to Warhawks

[Warhawks97]

I know the ersatzheer thing with volkssturm, stupa, tank III, ostheer veterans. But it was Ruhrpotpatriots doc and he forbid to add this doc to BK when he left the BK group.

So i think for terror it would be best to focus on Tigers and rocket arty. Currently its the Panther G that makes the doc finally to the ultimate axis doc.


About PE TH doc. I know its an Tankbusting doc which would even justify the tiger in it. Thing is that then PE doc would lack a bit in late game offense. I mean real offense that can badly hurt the enemie. Also Panthers generally should become the backbone of axis armored forces so at least 3 docs should have it i think. TH doc is currently hide and slow advance. The best advance TH doc can do is double IV/70 with Bergetiger behind it and hotchkiss and "milling" slowly forward through enemie lines. But thats not really "axis style" offense, thats more RE style. So boosting it with Panther wouldnt hurt i think. Beside that we already have a large ammount ot TH´s in axis docs. The axis defense would suffer also (88 nerf, bunker reduction etc) and allied more capable in destroying defenses so axis would need to attack more frequently, only TH´s would get bombed sooner or later.

Luft with Panthers coz Luftwaffe divisions did receive Panther Tanks. It was an luftwaffe division called Göring that had panthers i think, thats why panthers should stay in luft.


About BK doc options. Having only Tank IV´s as armor and air support doesnt sound bad. I mean allis would have also only have two docs with heavier armor but unlike allis axis are supposed playing more with heavier tanks. All the medium tanks like tank IV wouldnt be enough in late game i think when allis get many M10´s. Also as it take place arround 44 so it makes more sense here having a Panther or Tiger or both instead of a stuka bomber. i would simply think that BK doc would then be too easily stopped by just spamming bofors/m16/AA tanks and a few cheap tankbusters. Player would also tend to just spam one stuka after the other running out of ammo quickly but without significant effect. So from the original idea of BK tatics and armor tactics regarding to Guderian the Tiger would still fit best in it as breakthrough tank that pulverize enemie armor forces and leading the medium tanks. The Tiger got developed to bring BK tactics to perfection. But also Panther would make sense here as it was at that stage the standard axis Tank and since all US docs also have 76 shermans.

So yeah, option one "looks most as true BK doc", still i believe that only Tank IV´s would be a too big overnerf to that doctrine.

So idk, we could decide which doc gets panther and which tigers: Terror or BK. But since Tiger tank means also KT which is not really part of BK tactics i would say BK keeps at least with Panthers, terror becoming the Tiger doc.

In ultimate case i would say that BK keeps its Armor. Just the stuh super range thing changed as it too often turns the doc into a campy doctrine. And also slightly weakening the AA strenght by excluding the Ostwind from mass production. I mean the Puma with 20 mm has also aa option what many forget and its just as good as an US M16 as anti air defense.

[Butterkeks]

I know the ersatzheer thing with volkssturm, stupa, tank III, ostheer veterans. But it was Ruhrpotpatriots doc and he forbid to add this doc to BK when he left the BK group.

He actually only forbid the use of "his work", which means the abilities and units he had imagined and implemented. Which means that this wouldn't prevent the current mod team from making his own Ersatzheer doc.

What my problem is with splitting up Tigers and Panthers:
It actually changes nothing.
My suggestion should prevent WH from having one def doc and two times actually the same doc.

So my idea would be the following:

Def doc:
Fortifications and arty.

BK doc:
Stupa, Tiger, maybe Panther, Grens

Terror doc -> Ersatzheer doc
Inf, inf, inf

So basically making it like the other factions:
One arty doc, one tank doc, one inf doc.

I mean, have a look at it at the moment:
Brits: Arty, tanks, inf
AMis: Arty, tanks, inf
PE: Arty, tanks, inf
WH: Arty(Def), tanks+inf, tanks+inf

About BK doc options. Having only Tank IV´s as armor and air support doesnt sound bad. I mean allis would have also only have two docs with heavier armor but unlike allis axis are supposed playing more with heavier tanks. All the medium tanks like tank IV wouldnt be enough in late game i think when allis get many M10´s. Also as it take place arround 44 so it makes more sense here having a Panther or Tiger or both instead of a stuka bomber. i would simply think that BK doc would then be too easily stopped by just spamming bofors/m16/AA tanks and a few cheap tankbusters. Player would also tend to just spam one stuka after the other running out of ammo quickly but without significant effect. So from the original idea of BK tatics and armor tactics regarding to Guderian the Tiger would still fit best in it as breakthrough tank that pulverize enemie armor forces and leading the medium tanks. The Tiger got developed to bring BK tactics to perfection. But also Panther would make sense here as it was at that stage the standard axis Tank and since all US docs also have 76 shermans.

Well other factions and docs also have no problems with it. RAF, Arty, Def, AB, Inf...
So why should it be a problem here?

Luft with Panthers coz Luftwaffe divisions did receive Panther Tanks. It was an luftwaffe division called Göring that had panthers i think, thats why panthers should stay in luft.

OK, didn't know that^^
So much for the historical accuracy, then i'm fine with it^^

[Warhawks97]

For PE, all docs area actually inf, just one more special although i consider SE doc as a better inf doc as luft doc. So SE is inf/arty/defense/anti tank. Luft is general def doc/inf/air.

For WE Def its Inf/def/arty and even armor. Bk and Terror are kind of all. But its hard to define what BK doc is since it is actually everything.

Also BK doc should keep their stormtroopers. Actually Pgren/mechanized inf and special forces are essential in spearheads together with tanks.


What you mean with your suggestion in ersatzheer with "inf, inf, inf"?


And why i think only tank IV makes it hard for axis doc: You cant compare it with allied. Allied have at first supply yard, cheap TD´s and pak emplacments etc. So axis cant really maintain a force of lets say 4 Tank IV´s while armor doc can do so. Also at times allied (or us forces) received ammounts of 76 shermans the US made their Panther as their standard tank, producing 44 more panther as Tank IV´s. So yeah, when allis get their achilles tanks, hellcats and stuff you simply wouldnt have a chance only with Tank IV´s. One heavier should be there, most likley tank Panther.


The actual problem is the arty balance between doctrines, the impressive and sometimes inbreakable defense which makes it impossible to do flanking against axis tanks like Panthers. So 3-4 docs with panthers would not hurt as long as more allied docs would be able to destroy all that nasty defense and also not that super 88 guns anymore.

But wolf just announced in another topic that doctrines wont be changed anymore. Really sad.

[DaŇjeL_SK]

I think u really wanna kill this mod.

[Butterkeks]

But wolf just announced in another topic that doctrines wont be changed anymore. Really sad.

Well ok this makes the whole discussion obsolete^^

Sad, but ok why not. BK ist actually still fun as long as you play axis

[Warhawks97]

I think u really wanna kill this mod.

Oh i am sorry. Forgot that most axis player cant fight as team and that they always need everything in one single doc. What a pain for axis if they would suddenly be less able to field elite tanks/inf/arty with a single doctrine.

My bad, didnt know that.

But you know what would really help? It would help if you would say how exactly we would "kill" the mod. And its an insult for me already to blame me that my goal is to kill that mod. If so then i wouldnt care about that mod, nor would i be active here in forum, right? So this post was absolutey unneccessary and pointless and very unconstructive.

[DaŇjeL_SK]

by reworking of BK doc u will kill most of players love of life... and u are wrong... bk have no arty... maultier is pretty shitty... even calliope is better

... btw. u know I play both sides, so I have no special game fixation to axis

[Krieger Blitzer]

Idk why Hawks keep up with believing that the Axis are always so super in this game, while I can obviously see the complete opposite through several occasions on the other hand! For example; complaining about how weak the 50.cal.. is just BS! Recce has a 50.cal and it's fking deadly. M8 and M20 US armored cars are same... Such speech by him makes me feel to puke at him honestly.

Even Keks and Cyber today got beaten and ripped apart as Axis against both Sukin and Hawks o.O I watched the game.

[Warhawks97]

by reworking of BK doc u will kill most of players love of life... and u are wrong... bk have no arty... maultier is pretty shitty... even calliope is better

... btw. u know I play both sides, so I have no special game fixation to axis

wow, idk... last time churchills got smashed with single maultier barrage hwith first salvo and other tanks arround heavy damaged. AA tank got hit by lke 3 rockets and survived hardly. Vehicles take massive damage also. I cant say that ive ever killed a full HP tank or vehicle with a calli, lol.


I also said that BK doc is pretty hard to change anything and if then only carefully. I do think that the doc needs elite inf, assault tanks and heavy tanks, just idk if this doc needs really EVERYHING. And i am having a lot more success with maulier as with calli simply already it comes much earlier. Accuracy and damage is also better.

and BK doc is my [b][u]absolut FAVORIT doctrine and my most played doc! So i surley dont have the purpose to kill that doc, just when i play it i feel kind of little unfairness that i have proably so far the strongest inf in game with very good weapons and ability and flexibility and leader boost, best medium tanks and very good late game armor + very decent AA which also is very capable to kill all kinds of inf and finally also arty that is sufficient to kill all kinds of defense (and also vehicles and tanks) except few certain emplacments

Idk why Hawks keep up with believing that the Axis are always so super in this game, while I can obviously see the complete opposite through several occasions on the other hand! For example; complaining about how weak the 50.cal.. is just BS! Recce has a 50.cal and it's fking deadly. M8 and M20 US armored cars are same... Such speech by him makes me feel to puke at him honestly.

Even Keks and Cyber today got beaten and ripped apart as Axis against both Sukin and Hawks o.O I watched the game.

coz they didnt use res when we had nothing anymore. Second volks and bike and my counterattack that pushed him back would have got stopped and my units ripped. And Cyber had like 1200 mp in reserve + inf when me and sukin had almost no units or any res. So they literally gave away their initiative for free like a gift to us. I told that butter already after replay analyises. It was pure luck that ive got a risky comeback and that he had no bike behind his units.

[Krieger Blitzer]

coz they didnt use res when we had nothing anymore.

U know what... I started to hate this sentence.. every time when Axis lose u tell the same reasons! o.O
OMG, so u want to convince me that most of the Axis players are actually 'dickheads' as they never make a good use of their res?? What about the Allies ones??!! LOL.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Ever considered it's maybe because of that ur 50.cals were in fact better than their Ostwinds? Or that ur Kangaroos with snipers inside were awesome??? Or that probably ur Typhoons bombing run was devastating?!

[Warhawks97]

coz they didnt use res when we had nothing anymore.

U know what... I started to hate this sentence.. every time when Axis lose u tell the same reasons! o.O
OMG, so u want to convince me that most of the Axis players are actually 'dickheads' as they never make a good use of their res?? What about the Allies ones??!! LOL.

i made replay analyise. He had volks, sniper, pak and 800 MP in reserve. I had two rifle, engis, jeep and rangers and no res in reserve. Cyber had 1200 mp and skuin 321 mp. Sukin had two boys at, sappers and inf squad, cyber had assault squad, grens, AT squad and three buildings already. Watch my stream, i show you. I dont wanna upload that game unless you force me to do so.

So yeah, with my set up (2 volks and bikes and pak) he could have prevented it easily that i overruned him. Besdies i had 0 AT at that time so one single teamplay act and i would be dead vs scout cars. I survived puma only coz of sukins help where he lost his tetrarch still. So the mistake was the 120 mm mortar instead of overruning me in one assault. A mortar like the 120 is not effective when enemie has nothing anymore.

So this early stage was very lucky for me that there was no bike behind his inf.

Ever considered it's maybe because of that ur 50.cals were in fact better than their Ostwinds? Or that ur Kangaroos with snipers in side were awesome??? Or that probably ur Typhoons bombing run was devastating?!

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=630&view=unread#unread

The recce cal 50 is a special one, better as all others at distant range. It has twice the accuracy afaik of normal cal 50 in distant range. So emplaced cal 50 and recce are the best. Emplaced is best (still almost 0 suppression), then CW recce and then all other cal 50´s.

so if you wanna talk about that, make new topic but dont derail the topic with it. Esspecially by making pointless uncostructive posts or by insulting me indirectly.

[Cyberzombie]

Seriously stop posting such bs!
.50 Cal is in no way better than Ostwind Oo
When you really think so then you have clearly no clue about that mod at all.
And about not using all ress: yes he's right, we should have used them better. So don't act like this is only a problem for axis.cause it's definitely not!

[Krieger Blitzer]

Insulting u directly? Eh! X_X

I am the one who believes u actually insulted all the Axis players now by mentioning that they never use their res in the right way when they ever lose.. as u claim they never lost due to the 'OPness' of any specific kind by Allies weapons a once!!

[Warhawks97]

Insulting u directly? Eh! X_X

not you. Danjel first blamed me that my purpose is to kill the mod and then he blamed me even that i want to kill the BK doc. I must be full retard then when i want to kill my current fav game and even my favorit and most successfull doctrine.

[Bazookajoe]

I play the PE for the majority of the time I play at all, and I love SE and T as my do. choice, but the Sherman is actually my favorite thing about SE. This is primarily because I've seen my shermans take hits from allied tanks and tank hunters better than my PZ4's and what not. I actually want to see if there is also a chance to receive normal M4A3's (or whatever sherman variant has the short 75') too! There are many examples of Germans equipping entire companies (possibly battalions) with captured shermans and T-34's.

[Kasbah]

Instead of these biblic dissertations, probably shorter suggestions would improve reading, participation and attention from everyone.

[Warhawks97]

Instead of these biblic dissertations, probably shorter suggestions would improve reading, participation and attention from everyone.

And here we go. Whenever i made short suggestions creating for each a single topic then players refused that change as they were unable to see the how different suggestions are supposed to work together. They simply couldnt see the full picture and so they told me even to make one topic that includes all changes which are supposed to work together. But then we get these answers.

[Kasbah]

I don't know what the other says, your suggestions are good and interesting most of the times but with such text, and such answers the same size it's unlikely anything will happen. Devs only seem to take small suggestions into consideration (mostly because of their limited and devoted time) so I don't think such blocks of text will be helpful.

[Warhawks97]

I don't know what the other says, your suggestions are good and interesting most of the times but with such text, and such answers the same size it's unlikely anything will happen. Devs only seem to take small suggestions into consideration (mostly because of their limited and devoted time) so I don't think such blocks of text will be helpful.

thats why i am doing both;) I do bring up a list of linked suggestions so that players can imagine better how things are supposed to work together. And then i also do individual topics with less suggestions^^.