Infantry vs tanks

[Kasbah]

Hi,

I know there is a post called "Definitive List of Things to be Fixed", but I think this can be listed on a separate subject.

It's about how strong infantry is vs tanks. Infantry should not be able to attack a tank frontally without a penalty. Not only it's unrealistic but it's also not tactical at all. You know what I mean, the "hit and run". It's too easy now. You control an AT squad, you rush in front of a tank, even a heavy one, you destroy it or severely damage it, and you retreat to your officer or base, reinforce, and start again.

AT squad should only be able to fire when ambushed, waiting, and from the side or rear of the tank. This would be it much more strategic. Therefore, and I know it has been talked, MG's in tank should be more effective and supress, even slightly, infantry coming frontally.

What do you think?

[V13dweller]

The problem is that tank machine guns are stupidly weak, they have terrible accuracy and terrible damage, infantry can easily surround a lone tank and start throwing/launching all kinds of stuff at them, but the tank is powerless to defend itself, due to HE rounds being limited by a silly timer (Who has limited access to their own ammunition racks?) or silly single shots.

There a few options that could fix this, but it has been suggested and discussed many times on the previous forum, but nothing came out of it, and now with all the effort going into BK2, I doubt this will ever change.



"Hey Sarge! there are some ol' infantry runnin' up to our vehicle! Should I load HE and blow em' up?" ~Gunner
"No, we can't! we have to wait 24 more seconds! God damnit!" ~Commander
"Oh crap Sarge! Why did we even install this thing!?" ~Loader
"I don't know private, I don't know..." ~Commaner

[Kasbah]

Hahaha, that was a good one.
Maybe an easy solution would be that all tanks have a suppressive fire mode, like jagdpanther...

[V13dweller]

Problem with suppression, is it costs too damn much, and I have rarely seen anyone use it, nor do I, spending 40 munitions can be used on much better things.

[Wake]

I think the best way to fix this problem is to add an aiming timer to the bazookas and panzershrecks, similar to the way that some tanks have to first point their guns at the enemy, wait a few seconds, and then fire. This could be from 3-4 seconds and resets if the squad moves, meaning you have to use "hold position" until you fire.

If done this way, it adds a micro requirement that some players can use effectively, while others that try to run their infantry up, shoot, and retreat won't fare as well.

Balance it by making all AT weapons cheaper and available to more units, and also reducing that stupidly long reload time for bazookas and panzershrecks. Because even now certain tank MG's do a lot of damage while others are just for decoration and noise makers.

[V13dweller]

In general, both of our solutions need to be used, as the point and click of the RPG then run into a bush, then hide.

[Kasbah]

I agree suppression could cost a little less: 40 is too damn much. 25 or even 30 would be more attractive, and for all tanks.
I also like Wake solution's, good one, but I wonder if is not too hard too implement. And another thing about this second solution is that it won't solve sticky bombs or german grenades that break tracks.So has V13dweller said, but should be taken into consideration.
For me this is one of the most important problems left in BKmod 1

[Warhawks97]

Suppression cost 40 ammo and damage output goes to zero. A few seconds later the at squad comes back and you need to pay again 40 ammo without killing one.

Also coaxial MG´s are crap.



In old forum i did open 1 or two topics about it and a solution for tanks would be that:
-Tank and vehicle MGs (and coaxial) would be a way stronger
-having some suppression by default for all the MG´s.

So if there is a tank the player would need own tanks or at guns or trying smart flanking with inf while one inf squad draws the fire of the tank.

Furthermore for hendheld at weapons:
- Some aim time (currently they shoot directly without aiming really) like 3 seconds maybe.
- Maybe slightly reduced range to 40 or 35 (its 45 currently compared to 65 for tanks and like 50-55 for HE rounds). The Tread breaker ability outranges tanks literally.
- Reduced long range accuracy (Markr did that in his own home bk version already)
- but good accuracy from short range and ambush and maybe higher rof from ambush position on close range.
- Squads with schrecks and bazookas would also have reduced sprint duration or would sprint not so fast. So giving Inf squads AT weapons would need to be well thought.


More hendheld at for inf: if we would consider grens as basic WE inf and Rifles as basic US inf and ranger as special inf doc unit (and not counterpart to grens) we could make the following things:

Rifle squad weapons:
- Grease Guns
- Bar
- Bazooka (would reduce sprint effectivness/duration)

As Global upgrade for inf and airborne doc rifle grenades (which wont take weapon slot).

WE Grens (and maybe even Volksgrens):
- MP 40
- LMGs (34/42)
- Panzerschreck (would reduce sprint effectivness/duration)

As Global Upgrade Panzerfaust (wouldnt take a weapon slot)



So frontal rushes into tanks would be more or less impossible and tanks would be deadly Armored heavy MG platforms covering entire fields but when rushing into ambushes etc. very vulnerable to Inf in trenches, houses and special ambushed AT squads like in reality.

[Kasbah]

Yes, I agree with you. But the problem is always the same, it's a lot of work and with BKmod2 in development I wonder if any of these ideas are going to be implemented

[DaŇjeL_SK]

Hi,

I know there is a post called "Definitive List of Things to be Fixed", but I think this can be listed on a separate subject.

It's about how strong infantry is vs tanks. Infantry should not be able to attack a tank frontally without a penalty. Not only it's unrealistic but it's also not tactical at all. You know what I mean, the "hit and run". It's too easy now. You control an AT squad, you rush in front of a tank, even a heavy one, you destroy it or severely damage it, and you retreat to your officer or base, reinforce, and start again.

AT squad should only be able to fire when ambushed, waiting, and from the side or rear of the tank. This would be it much more strategic. Therefore, and I know it has been talked, MG's in tank should be more effective and supress, even slightly, infantry coming frontally.

What do you think?

U mean this strong infantry ?
https://youtu.be/uP4BpZRHmDE

[lunarwolf]

@ OP

completely agree. this is why I stopped playing vCoh in the first place! coz tanks/vehicles made not much sense when so easily destroyed by cheap units that are produced quickly and have little upkeep. totally ridiculous when cheap units have more survivability than more expensive ones

anyway you're not alone

[Krieger Blitzer]

These are 4 normal non upgraded Zookas. And all hitting the front btw! Doubtless, there is surely a big frontal rushes issue against tanks using inf but again I repeat.. this could be problematic if certain tactics regarding this are used by some players who are very well knowing about it! Such as grabbing 6 Recoilless rifles shooting all at the same time or like when u throw 6 upgraded rockets on a Panther frontally but from an ambush... Same while grabbing 2 Schrecks for example using the Gebirgsjäger units on the other hand.

[lunarwolf]

Same while grabbing 2 Schrecks for example using the Gebirgsjäger units on the other hand.

except 2 shreks don't equal 6 recoiless, especially since they were recently buffed, (also gerb are limited to 2 units max). so much in fact 1 recoiless hit my elefant frontally for 80% of its HP. crit tables also need some rework imo

[Warhawks97]

whats the point of the 3 previous posts and the vid? The Panther survived due its armor. Armor is the only thing that can save a tank from being killed or heavily damaged by frontal rush.

All lighter tanks and vehicles would be simply dead regardless of how many MG´s they would face towards opponents (as long as they are noisemaker coaxial)

@Tiger: whats wrong when being fired from ambush? that doesnt count as frontal rush:D


6 RL better than 2 schrecks oO. schreck penetration is almost guranteed unless its a SP or crocc ace trenched in (but even then). The Rl`s need vet to do something vs heavier tanks. Also 6 rls cost actually 1200 mp. 2 schrecks 360 mp.... but anyway. When i see 6 schrecks bouncing from a Tank like Tank IV with zimmerit then Rl´s are as good as schrecks

[Krieger Blitzer]

It's not that hard to flank an Axis heavy tank using inf specifically since they could be immobilized at any time, only 4 penetrating shots at the rear of a Tiger by Recoilless rifles indeed are enough to be severely devastating to it! Recoilless rifles recently were buffed too and so when they shoot all the 6 at the same time at a Pz4 for example... U can then only pray that they miss so that u may survive!!
Also in order to have 2 Schrecks in a squad consisting of 6 men which is surely harder to kill like the AB one with 6 Recoilless rifles.. u actually need 550MP+550MP+1 Gebirgs hopefully!!! Don't forget that u have Hellcats and airstrikes.

But front hits are front hits at the end!

[Kasbah]

The Panther survived as Warhawks says due to his armor, but it's way more common that the tracks or the engine got destroyed by zooks, grenades or flames and the tank is unable to retreat as you did.

And I already mentioned several times, there is no problem with AT squads but with ALL INFANTRY. I don't know how many times flame squads are able to inmobilize a tank with almost no losses. A normal inf squad can stay around 30-40 seconds in front of a medium tank (little less for a Panzer IV) loosing half of the guys or less. Like the day, I already explained, where an AT squad blew off frontally two fireflies vet1 with a Vickers just behind, loosing only 1 guy.

[DaŇjeL_SK]

This topic is pointless. U should never send tank lonely against enemy troops. In war was that same. For example...how and why u think started up Panzer Elite ? Exactly for accompanying tanks. So pls 1st think and than write. No single german tank was ever sent to fight without infatry support.

[Kasbah]

And no infantry will attack a tank frontally or just stand in front of it

[Warhawks97]

This topic is pointless. U should never send tank lonely against enemy troops. In war was that same. For example...how and why u think started up Panzer Elite ? Exactly for accompanying tanks. So pls 1st think and than write. No single german tank was ever sent to fight without infatry support.

i know. Infantry was behind at at the flanks of the tank. cleaning ambushes etc.

But infantry also never jumped out of their cover running over an 1 kilometer long field without any cover towards a tank that is shooting them with dozens of mgs-.-


Read hendheld AT manual´s of ww2 and you would know. Sure tanks need support by inf that flanks, kills paks and ambushes etc or protecting the flanks of an tank and you dont need to tell us. But nobody ran towards a tank. Russians and japans did so maybe to throw molotov cocktails or other stuff but an AT squad with zooks or schrecks awaited enemie tanks or flanked those but never rushed towards them alone as it would be suicide.

[lunarwolf]

This topic is pointless. U should never send tank lonely against enemy troops. In war was that same. For example...how and why u think started up Panzer Elite ? Exactly for accompanying tanks. So pls 1st think and than write. No single german tank was ever sent to fight without infatry support.

and standing in front of a tank in the open doesn't equal certain death IRL ?

[Warhawks97]

i really hope this will be fixed soon. The suppressive fire ability seems to be also usless against defensive doc AT squads. Also twice men could frontal rush a tank that was shooting at them the whole time.

It kinda sucks and from game to game its sooooo annyoing. Esspecially late game is often only a bunch of inf with schrecks running into tank formations, shredding some of them and retreat. It didnt matter what tanks i used and how many mgs.... everything got rushed and not seldomly in a frontal assault. And the distance they do sprint with such heavy weapons on their shoulder.... so straight... so hungy for a kill..... they are animals going crazy and in a pure bloodlust. Just crazy and everytime formations of vehicles and tanks running away searching to survive.... using smoke screen But guided missiles still hit their targets regardless at which distance and the tank formation is shatterd..... only wrecks remaining, others have engine damaged and others immobilized. It really looks like a shark attacking a swarm of fishes which have no chance.

Only a veted HE sherman seems to be able to stop them. AA tanks that empty magazins on them cant avoid that the last or the last two guys will make their shot and damaging this poor AA tank.



Those guys must be full with drugs that strenghtening their body and their will to destroy.

[Erich]

i really hope this will be fixed soon. The suppressive fire ability seems to be also usless against defensive doc AT squads. Also twice men could frontal rush a tank that was shooting at them the whole time.

It kinda sucks and from game to game its sooooo annyoing. Esspecially late game is often only a bunch of inf with schrecks running into tank formations, shredding some of them and retreat. It didnt matter what tanks i used and how many mgs.... everything got rushed and not seldomly in a frontal assault. And the distance they do sprint with such heavy weapons on their soldier.... so straight... so hungy for a kill..... they are animals going crazy and in a pure bloodlust. Just crazy and everytime formations of vehicles and tanks running away searching to survive.... using smoke screen BUt guided missiles still hit their targets regardless at which distance and the tank formations is shatterd..... only wrecks remaining, others have engine damaged and others immobilized. It really looks like a shark attacking a swarm of fishes which have no chance.

Only a veted HE sherman seems to be able to stop them. AA tanks that empty magazins on them cant avoid that the last or the last two guys will make their shot and damaging this poor AA tank.



Those guys must be full with drugs that strenghtening their body and will to destroy.

... dude... its nazi training.

[Kasbah]

Yeah, I totally agree with Warhawks. I think it's the most (and last) important problem of the game now. Eveything is good except for this

[Warhawks97]

Yeah, I totally agree with Warhawks. I think it's the most (and last) important problem of the game now. Eveything is good except for this

sherman used suppressive fire ü HE rounds. Enemie had haupstutmführer, AT squad ans SS squad. the ygot pined but crouhced forward towards tank which drove sometimes backwards. I came in with greyhound to kill them but the AT squad shot the schreck while being Pined on a damn street! He didnt even aim or anything (not simulated) and the schreck "came out" of the solider that was laying on the ground....... Pined on a god damn street but afterall able to shoot the schreck.

[JimQwilleran]

He didnt even aim or anything (not simulated) and the schreck "came out" of the solider that was laying on the ground....... Pined on a god damn street but afterall able to shoot the schreck.

Lol I dont think that this has anything to do with the mod, it's just CoH ;P