Bunkers

[Warhawks97]

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=536&view=unread#unread

I am watching this game and i am at minf 9 currently. Its something i do see very often but now i am asking me two things:

1. Why has every axis doc bunkers (even terror for example can build bunker with HMG inside which then is a strong fortress
( viewtopic.php?f=16&t=527 ).

Also why are they available right at start? I mean even pak emplacments require unlock (inf and def doc) and Brits need trucks and officers to build bofors and 17 pdr emplacments... But Bunkers can be build right from start (Theoretically not even a need of the first base building!).

wouldnt it make more sense when def doc would have them only (and SE with mortar bunker) and available along with this cheaper bunker unlock thing? The cost for bunkers would be always 450 mp and for def doc only.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Bunkers can be built from the start because it takes an hour to build it + its nothing but only a target if no mg42 inside but.... 550 MP + 350 MP and 30 ammo for this fortress as you said. Seems legit.

[Warhawks97]

Bunkers can be built from the start because it takes an hour to build it + its nothing but only a target if no mg42 inside but.... 550 MP + 350 MP and 30 ammo for this fortress as you said. Seems legit.

The def doc builds them quite fast as not seldomly def doc uses two pio squads from start. Thing is that right before any mortar is available (like in that game) the bunkers are up and can then be killed by units much later available (priest, avre, satchels but first when everything arround is dead). And when allis have bad start like shadow and terence had then a bunker is build up just a few meters away from their base or near base area and then (which didnt happen).

Also even a pak emplacment requires lots of cp to unlock. And where is the sense that armor docs like TH doc or offensive docs like BK/Terror can build up real bunkers made of concrete like in normandy? A Bofors cost 380 mp and some fuel and requires second truck and is being destroyed quite fast by mortars, inf even or tanks. What would you say when brits build up a bofors right at start using quickly two sapper squads right at the beginning? or when inf doc builds a 107 mortar emp right at start?

and even when it is an easy target it always requires a lot more to destroy as to be build in MP and ammo cost. I mean srsly, a bunker after 5 mins in an SR game. And the Bunker survived very long even when priest was already fielded.

[DaŇjeL_SK]

More important question for me is, why I need 2 demolition charges for SE mortar bunker and panherturm and even 3 demo charges for that basic bunker by 500MP. I think 150 ammo is pretty much, when I finally get so close to bunker....

[Wake]

I don't really think this is a huge problem, because of what sukin said. The bunker takes so long to build, that in early game, it is usually the fault of the player for allowing the enemy to build a bunker. It is very dangerous for whoever is building it, because when it is under construction it can be damaged easily, and a 550 MP investment can go down the drain. The build can also be canceled, but that means all that time spent on building goes to waste as well. The pioneers building the bunker are also very vulnerable, because they receive more damage while building.

In early game, building a bunker too costs so much resources that it's very likely the only thing the player has spent his resources on. 550 MP delays everything by a lot, including tech-ups, upgrades, and other units.

[DaŇjeL_SK]

But as I said 3 demo charges is too much. And why should should be that small 550MP buker more resistant and stronger than bigger bunkers ?

[Warhawks97]

I don't really think this is a huge problem, because of what sukin said. The bunker takes so long to build, that in early game, it is usually the fault of the player for allowing the enemy to build a bunker. It is very dangerous for whoever is building it, because when it is under construction it can be damaged easily, and a 550 MP investment can go down the drain. The build can also be canceled, but that means all that time spent on building goes to waste as well. The pioneers building the bunker are also very vulnerable, because they receive more damage while building.

In early game, building a bunker too costs so much resources that it's very likely the only thing the player has spent his resources on. 550 MP delays everything by a lot, including tech-ups, upgrades, and other units.

Ever played HR games? also it may happens that the early game starts bad of allis like when scout vehicles makes some problems or when jeep is lost. The Time the opponent had to retreat, reinforce and return in enough to get a bunker up. In HR games its not a big deal to get 3 pio squads, HMG+ pak and covered a bit by a pE player.


But well. Still keeps strange that non def docs can build defenses made of concrete like in normandy. Def doc needs 1 CP to unlock cheaper and faster production of bunkers. Would it be really such a big deal to use this also as Bunker unlock?

[Wake]

I would be OK with just limiting the non-def docs to only the MG42 emplacement, instead of a bunker.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I would be OK with just limiting the non-def docs to only the MG42 emplacement, instead of a bunker.

This means for the Terror doc item of cheaper Goliath production to be also modified or totally removed even... What could be in replace?!

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Booby traps, will fit doc perfectly + will be fair, cause alies have them in 2 docs, when axis in only 1, though this ability is much more logical for germans, cause they were retreating all day long.

[MarKr]

This means for the Terror doc item of cheaper Goliath production to be also modified or totally removed even...

or (which would be much more probable) simply moving it to another production building.

[Warhawks97]

This means for the Terror doc item of cheaper Goliath production to be also modified or totally removed even...

or (which would be much more probable) simply moving it to another production building.

or vehicle like ammo transporter. PE can build in ammo transporter so why not WE as well? Also for terror maybe in an MG emplacment.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Well, I personally don't mind if Bunkers to be restricted only for both the SE and the Def docs..
SE bunkers for the normal price of 550 MP without the special upgrades, but the Def doc bunkers should surely remain for a cheaper cost with those special additional upgrades with a slightly faster instructing rate too after that doctrine item is unlocked! Exactly as currently the situation there is... So no changes should be made here! Just clarifying.

Terror doc's cheaper Goliath item to be replaced probably with booby traps to be used by Grens as Sukin suggested!

However that the 107mm mortar emplacements of the Inf doc must then receive less HP also on the other hand as I already asked before.

[Warhawks97]

Well, I personally don't mind if Bunkers to be restricted only for both the SE and the Def docs..
SE bunkers for the normal price of 550 MP without the special upgrades, but the Def doc bunkers should surely remain for a cheaper cost with those special additional upgrades with a slightly faster instructing rate too after that doctrine item is unlocked! Exactly as currently the situation there is... So no changes should be made here! Just clarifying.

Terror doc's cheaper Goliath item to be replaced probably with booby traps to be used by Grens as Sukin suggested!

However that the 107mm mortar emplacements of the Inf doc must then receive less HP also on the other hand as I already asked before.

well ok with that regarding bunkers.


Booby tarps for Terror, idk. Currently either special forces (few special rangers and commandos) or special docs which purpose is more to slow enemie advances (SE) has it. But for Terror i am not sure.... Great Tanks (Panther G), Inf with flame nades, schrecks and stgs which can be build early and which are strong without any unlocks already (unlike commandos), good arty support (movable, mechanized, VT, high damage regarding to walking stuka) and finally off maps. And the booby traps as well? I am really really not sure. I would give something like that rather to luft (and maybe even def doc) but not to terror actually.Its not a sneaky killer doc with ambushes and traps etc.... its more loud with always showing its strenght and "muscles" with powerfull offensive punches.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Booby traps are gonna cost something, and it requires CP.. only for Grens at last. Also don't forget that Terror needs every possible amount of ammo storage so that they can hopefully use their expensive superior things like walking Stukas etc!

[Warhawks97]

Booby traps are gonna cost something, and it requires CP.. only for Grens at last. Also don't forget that Terror needs every possible amount of ammo storage so that they can hopefully use their expensive superior things like walking Stukas etc!

still "style wise" it makes more sense for lutwaffe special forces or def doc.

And what would a booby trap cost?

[Krieger Blitzer]

Well, booby traps should cost 15 ammo... And Goliath item should not be replaced with anything. As that maybe Goliath should be moved to the ammo HT of all the Axis docs that have no Bunkers!

[Warhawks97]

Well, booby traps should cost 15 ammo... And Goliath item should not be replaced with anything. As that maybe Goliath should be moved to the ammo HT of all the Axis docs that have no Bunkers!

Goliaths added to ammo HT´s as well (but also keeps available on bunkers).

and then lets see what will happen.

[Warhawks97]

OK. I just made a lazy game with new players for some testing purpose (HR) and so i thought i could play arround with def doc. I made the ultimate test then: I use two Pio squads building up a bunker in front of an US MG emplacment. Ive lost one Pio squad (which is not much in HR game) but i succeeded to build this damn bunker under fire of an HMG... wtf. The Bunker was on low HP but at that stage of the game there is no unit that can deal and significant damage. And the overall HR spam from me and mates allowed me to quickly repair the Bunker with two squads (which have advanced repairs once doc is choosen). And then the bunker has further advantages: It provides view, i can put units inside (which btw can help a lot when enemie gets closer and your squad has stgs or to quickly recover from suppression) and cost 0 upkeep as well pantherbunker (but those take a lot more damage and cost a way more + needs unlock) and finally those give a lot of xp for me. I could unlock 50% of the tec tree just by some Bunkers and few points upgraded So "hard to build" or " res consuming" is less a factor and the advantages outweight disadvantages. With HR its no prob at all. SR depends but when you have good mates its also not a huge prob to get one fast.



But then i did further tests with this doc and i was pretty amazed. Their 105 howitzer have long range rounds, the VT range for officer and spotter is 100 range or more (VT range was larger as spotters spotting range and as high or higher as unemplaced 88 range which is 100 range). The the 251/17 with 20 mm.... oh dear.... it shred infantry crazy fast (every bullet was actually a kill oO), high penetration and damage vs vehicles and it got only 50-60% damage from RL (vehicle was vet 1).


and finally i saw the 280 mm rocket strike since i play BK mod (for some reasons nobody ever used it). It was just epic and i was stunned more or less. It cost 200 ammo and everything was instant dead in the area (several inf squads and sherman). The strikes came down veeery fast (within 2-3 seconds) and a single rocket killed instantly sherman. The Density of strikes is very high so everyhting in the target area is 100% sure dead. I can also use all 30 seconds arty on a territory which is being captured by the enemie which kills the inf arround for sure and cost 125 ammo. Unlock together with rocket strike but very usefull and deadly. And finally buffing my inf twice (passive defensive training) but also with "For the Fatherland" ability for 45 ammo which buffs all infantry on my friendly territory.

Its a very funny doc.


But back to topic: Bunkers are easily build... on HR game just spam 1-3 pio squads and pak+HMG and build the bunker as soon as territory is captured (even when enemie shoots with HMG on it).

[Krieger Blitzer]

Hmm... Didn't u say after the 4v4 game of which u lost with Erich, Crimax and ursus.. that it was actually ur last Bk match mate?!
Told u guys; I know Hawks ^^ Oh my dear xD

[Warhawks97]

Hmm... Didn't u say after the 4v4 game of which u lost with Erich, Crimax and ursus.. that it was actually ur last Bk match mate?!
Told u guys; I know Hawks ^^ Oh my dear xD

i am not playing "real games" anymore and no games as allied. But i am still testing some stuff by my own. In this case testing def doc and bunkers.

But i am far away from playing a "serious" teamfight with allis again. My mental health wouldnt survive it. So we are awaiting the next patch (me and some others like termix) when this silly def camp games are less likely to happen and some silly axis stuff is being changed (esspecially 88 stuff, better/changed 76 guns, sd2 changes, sector arty... these things). There is currently nobody really in mood to play anymore and all wait for the next patch (since all players started using the stuff we talked/raged about in forum).

[JimQwilleran]

You hawks are right. In games of pros I will also choose only axis side. I just had a frustrating game where anything I did was not enough. My best inf was dying with dealing 1/3 of damage enemy did, my best tanks died with 1 shot from 75mm puma that has 0 aim time. This is just a bullshit.

[Warhawks97]

You hawks are right. In games of pros I will also choose only axis side. I just had a frustrating game where anything I did was not enough. My best inf was dying with dealing 1/3 of damage enemy did, my best tanks died with 1 shot from 75mm puma that has 0 aim time. This is just a bullshit.

Its weird, i know. Idk why all the axis open top vehicles have high rof and more or less 0 aim time (28 mm 251 and 222, 37 mm vehicles and the 75 mm vehicles, Marders). All the axis vehicles where you can see the reload act have very high rof and more or less 0 aim time, they instantly shoot.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Looks like im the only one here who enjoy playing alies as well as axis and have no feel about "omg, this, that and that so OP, damn, impossible to play". In 2v2 and 3v3 games i usually can do a really good push with AB\raf\inf\tanks\ and sometimes even CW arty ( and with all axis docs for sure). It really seems that everything which is effective now called OP here on forum, im missing some old forum members like MG42 who were more constructive...

I cant disagree with 1 thing - alies having lack of defence crushing stuff if the entire axis team goes for camping, but i already told everything about it in replay called "other ways" ( yes, 3v3 when axis have luft + SE + Def is unbelivably nasty, stupid, no fun, etc and etc). But whatever, this coin have two sides, i with my mates used to play CW arty + Sappers + Inf, so everybody had lots of emplacements and some arty, in most cases german teams were just doomed to hell with undestroyable by 105mm arty and nebels 17p nests arround the map, lots of 107mm mortars (id like to say that it works like Flak 88 which can shoot through the walls) and many.... MANY artilery, 2 priests were butching all motorized arty and heavy tanks, inf doc scored some kills with 105mm shermans + deadly call ins, arty churchils were clearing front area, at the same time Dr. was dropping sappers which immediately constructed new emplacements. Finally rush with HE Jumbo + Firefly behind + lots of infantry sections boosted with Leutnants. All this was surely as nasty for axis as early 88s and bunkers for alies, thats just a playstyles, which needing special strategical approach for countering it.

@Vfa

Marders and Puma have aim time.

[Warhawks97]

Looks like im the only one here who enjoy playing alies as well as axis and have no feel about "omg, this, that and that so OP, damn, impossible to play". In 2v2 and 3v3 games i usually can do a really good push with AB\raf\inf\tanks\ and sometimes even CW arty ( and with all axis docs for sure). It really seems that everything which is effective now called OP here on forum, im missing some old forum members like MG42 who were more constructive...

I cant disagree with 1 thing - alies having lack of defence crushing stuff if the entire axis team goes for camping, but i already told everything about it in replay called "other ways" ( yes, 3v3 when axis have luft + SE + Def is unbelivably nasty, stupid, no fun, etc and etc). But whatever, this coin have two sides, i with my mates used to play CW arty + Sappers + Inf, so everybody had lots of emplacements and some arty, in most cases german teams were just doomed to hell with undestroyable by 105mm arty and nebels 17p nests arround the map, lots of 107mm mortars (id like to say that it works like Flak 88 which can shoot through the walls) and many.... MANY artilery, 2 priests were butching all motorized arty and heavy tanks, inf doc scored some kills with 105mm shermans + deadly call ins, arty churchils were clearing front area, at the same time Dr. was dropping sappers which immediately constructed new emplacements. Finally rush with HE Jumbo + Firefly behind + lots of infantry sections boosted with Leutnants. All this was surely as nasty for axis as early 88s and bunkers for alies, thats just a playstyles, which needing special strategical approach for countering it.

@Vfa

Marders and Puma have aim time.

Well. me and my old clan used to play Inf/RE/armor. When the enemies belived they can camp then we had two 105 sherman which also could counter some axis arty while 95 churchills kicked the paks etc. But then inf doc was no real match when two things started to happen:
1. Arty sherman limited to one
2. Increased cost of Wespes and tectree change made hummel a lot more appealing being used currently more then wespes. In old patched nobody ever used hummel as wespe cost just 360 mp. The changes wolf made are good but it the full SE arty power became obvious first now with increased use of hummel and sometimes even all 4 spgs.

That means that arty doc replaced RE doc as inf doc was no more threat for enemie arty and easily countered. But priests instead RE did weaken alli defense (mainly anti tank) and also the push forward. Now arty from priest can crack defenses but but less units are now pushing forward.

And when there is a decent skilled team of def, SE and luft then its gonna be hard. And when SE is experienced able able to kill priests (ive already beat many arty players with hummel and even cyberzombie had hard times in last game vs hummels) then there is nothing really cracking the def. When i played with two "mega noobs" vs zhivago and his mates (fiskin and another which used ts) on Reversed defense then zhivago need very long to kill my 88´s only. And he could kill my teammates tigers and panthers only coz he placed them all (4 tanks) in a line in front of his base doing nothing with them all the time (10 mins parking tiger ace, panther, ostwind and tank IV H). So just a slightly more skilled BK mate using his tanks then zhiavgo and his mates with inf doc and armor doc had been smashed fast and easily. And we had not a single real arty unit on our side that could counter Priests (only 88 VT and a nebler from terror doc). Map was reversed defense.


I am currently checking corsix files btw. But it seems that marder has some aim time. Though in last 2 vs 2 against zhivago and terence my single Marder I killed two 75 shermans and one 76 sherman in 1 vs 3. Simply due to much faster shooting.