Definitive List of Things to be Fixed

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Wake
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Definitive List of Things to be Fixed

Postby Wake » 07 Dec 2014, 18:27

Here is a list of generally agreed upon things that are either unbalanced or need to be fixed so far, and it's comprehensive. Basically everything. Please tell why you agree or disagree.

-Buff Churchill Armor
-Buff Jeep Damage
-Nerf PaK 36 HE Rounds
-Fix Bren Carriers
-Buff Brit Artillery Spotter
-Buff Super Pershing Armor
-Buff Bazooka vs Long-Barreled Panzer 4 (Ausf J)
-Change Bazooka Cost-Effectiveness
-Buff PIAT Speed
-Buff Sticky Bombs/Nerf PE AT Grenades
-Buff Sherman Upgrades
-Buff US 57mm AT Gun
-Buff US 30 cal MG Emplacement
-Reduce Allied Tank Fuel Upkeep

-Buff Churchill Armor
Right now, British RE Churchill's are one of the worst tanks in the game. The Mk VII had 152mm of frontal armor. For comparison, a Tiger tank has 120mm. Yet right now, almost all Axis AT can penetrate a Churchill to the front. Panzershreck's NEVER bounce and always do half damage, the PaK 38 50mm has no trouble with it, a PaK 40 will turn it into toast, and a panzer 4 can sometimes destroy it with 1 shot.

-Buff Jeep Damage
The US Jeep currently shoots toy gun pellets. It does almost no damage to infantry at any range. By all means the jeep should be a terrible unit, but it is built by many US players to counter schwimms and bikes because for some reason, the jeep actually does reasonable damage to these units to ward them off. Yet here is a scenario that perfectly describes how terrible the jeep's damage is: A jeep and a bike encounter each other. During the fight, pioneers start repairing the bike and engineers start repairing the jeep. If the jeep targeted the pioneers, the jeep would lose because the pioneers will probably lose 1 or 2 men due to the jeep's low damage output. If the bike targeted the engineers, the jeep will lose 100% of the time because all 6 engineers will be suppressed and dead within seconds. And remember, a jeep costs 240 MP and a bike only 220. A schwimm costs 250 but has the same health as the jeep, does more damage, and gets special doctrine abilities like repairing or scorching earth or marking targets.

-Nerf PaK 36 HE Rounds
This is one of the most OP units in the game because of how effective it is as an early game unit. It counters everything. It's fine at destroying early vehicles which is OK, but with HE rounds, this unit can kill entire infantry squads with 1 shot. And that's any unit, even infantry sections, snipers, mortar teams, MG teams, all of them easily lose the entire squad in 1 hit. On top of that, the HE rounds ability costs 25 Munition and can fire 5 shots during the time period. That's enough to stop an army. Compare this to the US 37mm AT gun, which also has an anti-infantry ability for 25 Munition: The canister shot. Except the canister shot only shoots once and is only effective at very short ranges and is nowhere near the power of the PaK 36 HE rounds. The canister shot might kill half of a squad, whereas HE rounds would easily kill the entire one and if it didn't, it's got 4 more shots to try again.

-Fix Bren Carriers
The Bren Carrier right now does no damage, it is bugged. Furthermore, the Vickers MMG upgrade doesn't give it a vickers, it gives it another bren, which also does no damage. Make these brens have the same damage as the bren held by the infantry section, don't make it terrible like the jeep.
There is also the Wasp reward unit that replaces the Bren Carrier. It's got a good flamethrower and that is fine, but this unit is NOT bulletproof like the normal bren carrier and it has an outrageous cost of 400 MP and 15 fuel. No other early game unit costs 400 MP. For comparison, a flame hetzter costs 400 MP and 60 fuel.

-Buff Brit Artillery Spotter
This unit is not very good. It's 1 guy with very low health that costs 150 MP that must be unlocked with 1 CP and can only paradrop in friendly territory. What is the point of having a scout paradrop if it must be in friendly territory? You could use a lieutenant or captain for that. Additionally, he has no evasive action, so to actually get into enemy territory and camoflage, the spotter must run, uncamoflaged, into cover, and stay there for 5 seconds, all while he can be easily killed by any enemy unit. Compared to the real US scout and Wehr Aufklaerer which cost 160MP, the spotter is a joke. Give him the ability to paradrop into enemy territory and crawl around camoflaged in evasive action like the other scouts.

-Buff Super Pershing Armor
For it's cost of 2000 MP, this unit is pretty bad. Many Axis AT has no trouble dealing with the strongest, most expensive allied tank in the game. That shouldn't be happening. PaK 40's with regular AP rounds, Panzershrecks, panzerfausts, and panzer 4's all regularly penetrate the super pershing to the front. This shouldn't be happening, as the super pershing had 178mm of frontal hull armor and 190mm of frontal turret armor (102mm original + a 88mm part from a Panther welded on). Yet a panzerfaust could only penetrate 140mm and a panzershreck only 160mm. A Panzer 4 should have no chance of penetrating a super pershing from the front, yet often it scores critical hits doing more than half damage and immobilizing it or damaging the engine.

-Buff Bazooka vs Long-Barreled Panzer 4 (Ausf J)
For some reason, the bazooka can easily destroy the stubby PE panzer 4, often destroying it completely in 2 hits to the front. Yet many times, the long barreled Panzer 4 from Blitz doctrine are nearly invulnerable to bazooka's. I think those are the J and H variants. The M9 bazooka could penetrate 102mm, and even more with the A3C rocket upgrade, yet even with the better rockets, bazookas bounce off the front regularly. The most armor a Panzer 4 had was 88mm. For some reason, the Panzer 4 F2 is like it should be, very vulnerable to bazookas.

-Change Bazooka Cost-Effectiveness
Compare the US AT Squad to the Axis AT squads. All 3 of them cost 360 MP, yet the US one gets 2 bazookas with an upgrade for a 3rd if infantry doctrine, the Wehrmacht one gets 2 panzershrecks, and the PE one gets 1 panzershreck but also a panzerfaust for 35 munition. A panzershreck can penetrate every single allied tank in the game. A bazooka loses its effectiveness with Panzer 4's, and is mostly ineffective vs heavy axis tanks, even with the A3C rocket upgrade that costs 100MP and 40 munition. Think about that, and remember both units cost 360 MP. Axis Tanks also have deadly MG42's, which often times prevents the US AT squad from getting in range to fire its bazookas. The conclusion is that the US AT squad is overpriced for its actual effectiveness vs the axis AT squads.

-Buff PIAT Speed
The British PIAT is actually a very bad AT weapon. Sure, it can shoot over walls, but that's it. In an open field, a PIAT is absolutely useless because it shoots on an arc at a very very slow speed and does very little damage and is VERY inaccurate and has very short range. Any good player can simply back up his tank ("kiting") and dodge the slow moving PIAT projectiles. And about walls? A good player just moves his tank out of range. It's VERY easy to counter a PIAT. My suggestion to make them better is to just make the PIAT projectile move much faster, like in real life. The slow speed is a vCoH holdover. But the damage could also be a lot better. Most tanks have almost no roof armor, and that is where a successful PIAT would hit a tank.
Maybe just give the British a reward unit of a Bazooka squad that replaces the PIAT squad?

-Buff Sticky Bombs/Nerf PE AT Grenades
Compare these two abilities. Sticky bombs must be upgraded for 100 MP and 40 munition, cost 35 munition to use, and have very very short range, are only useable by riflemen, do almost 0 damage to enemy tanks and it's only hope is to damage the engine of a tank. PE AT grenades are available from the start of the game on almost all PE infantry for a cost of 20 munition, have comparatively long range, and are capable of destroying every allied tank in the game. 1 AT grenade can destroy all early allied vehicles in 1 hit, a sherman dies from 2 hits, and a super pershing takes 5 of them (I know because I've done it before). Either make sticky bombs MUCH better, or make AT grenades MUCH worse, because right now, both of them are handheld thrown AT weapons and one is clearly underpowered comapred to the other.

-Buff Sherman Upgrades
There are 2 sherman upgrades in the WSC if a US player goes armor doctrine. They are the Frontal sandbags and side sandbags, the first one costing 300 MP and 20 fuel, the second 300 MP and 40 fuel. Both require getting the 35 fuel upgraded production from the tank depot first. So if a player spends 600 MP and 60 fuel on upgrades for his shermans, he should get very good results. What ends up happening is this is a complete waste of resources. Panzershrecks still have no trouble penetrating these upgraded shermans and neither do any other axis AT.

-Buff US 57mm AT Gun
This gun is terrible. As chemokartoffel pointed out, this gun takes 7 seconds to reload compared to the PaK 38 50mm taking 4.5 seconds. A PaK 40 75mm gun takes 7 seconds to reload. The US 57mm gun also is very inaccurate, even in camoflage mode, and bounces on almost all axis tanks.

-Buff US 30 cal MG Emplacement
Also another terrible allied unit. The MG nest's gun is actually fine. It's better than the regular portable US MG at suppression and killing. The bad part about this MG nest is that is has such terribly low health. Strong units like Knights Cross can destroy it from the front while being suppressed, and from behind the nest, can destroy it within 5 seconds. Of the 3 MG nests, British Vickers, Wehrmacht MG42 Emplacment, and US MG, the US MG is the only one that can be destroyed just by shooting at it with small arms like rifles or even an officer's pistol. A single grenade often destroys the entire nest, while with the Brit and Wehr nests it may kill the gunner but will barely do any actual damage to the emplacement itself, unlike the US 30 cal one.

-Reduce Allied Tank Fuel Upkeep
This isn't much of a problem on maps with lots of fuel, but on the ones that do, such as Road to Cherbourg that has only 3 fuel points, this is a huge problem because fuel income for both sides peaks at around 25. Yet for Allies, their tanks have incredibly high upkeep costs. A single sherman is like, 4 upkeep. So if a player has 2 shermans (-4), an m10 wolverine (-5), and a jumbo (-5), his +25 fuel income just became +7. There are the upgrades in the supply depot, but it's an incredibly moot point because of how expensive they are. To get more fuel, players have to spend fuel, often fuel that they don't have. Allied players get fucked if they build a tank because they have no fuel in come, and are fucked if they buy fuel upgrades in the supply depot because they don't have fuel to build tanks until 10 minutes later. Again, compare the allied fuel upkeep to that of the axis. Many axis tanks have 0 fuel upkeep, and most have 1 or 2.

AXIS Issues
-Grenadiers are a little bit too expensive.

-Terror Doc has many many useless unlocks in the command tree. Every single propoganda ability is never used due to the incredibly high price, and there are just plain stupid other ones such as "25% cheaper goliaths". I don't think a player has ever seriously built a goliath in a pvp game.

-V1 Rocket has inconsistent damage vs different units. Sometimes it destroys everything around a building it hits but the building only lost a fraction of its health, and somehow a tank by the building only took 10% damage while all the other tanks were instantly destroyed.

-Of the dozens of halftracks available to PE and Wehrmacht, some of them are really bad and some are really good, even though they often use the same weapons.

-Volksgrenadiers Brandflasche molotov is very good vs some units and terrible vs others. I've seen it destroy a sherman engine and do absolutely nothing to a jeep.

-Many useless halftracks that no one ever builds, like the PE Luft Vampire halftrack. Even the PE 37mm Light AT halftrack has a 40 munition "infantry sniping" ability, which is incredibly unrealistic, even for BK, and should be either taken out or replaced with some sort of HE rounds.

-The US 37mm AT gun has odd degrees of effectiveness vs Axis tanks. It easily penetrates Wirbelwinds, Ostwinds, and Stubby Panzer 4's when it probably shouldn't.

-PE AT Squad only gets 1 panzershreck, while the Wehrmacht one gets 2, and both cost 360 MP.

-Tiger Ace has trouble penetrating the 76 Jumbo.
Last edited by Wake on 13 Dec 2014, 18:41, edited 10 times in total.
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MarKr
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Re: Definitive List of Things to be Fixed

Postby MarKr » 07 Dec 2014, 21:40

- Buff Churchill Armor
Yes. Churchills should be buffed at least against anything weaker than Panther gun. After all Churchills are armed with either 6pndr (which is actually the same gun as US 57mm) or 75mm gun which uses the same ammo as 75mm Sherman. All in all they have weak weapons so their armor should be able to withstand some damage. With these weapons they can deal with infantry, light vehicles easily, have some chance against medium tanks and are in trouble against heavies if left without support.
It should work...

- Buff Jeep Damage
Yes. With its cost the combat performance is ridiculous. Axis have actually mobile MG42 team in form of bikes and Schwimms (performance is quite similar compared to MG42 team) while US has recon vehicle with MG of a strength of a slingshot. Should be changed.

- Nerf PaK 36 HE Rounds
The accuracy is quite high but it also has -25% accuracy against infantry it's AoE doesn't seem broken either (in the files) it doesn't differ much from Stuart's HE mode...

- Fix Bren Carriers
Another yes. I would be for the Vickers MG but it seems to have a problem with animation and/or sounds if you combine Vickers and the Pintle Bren. However simple transformation into mobile HMG platform should do the trick and pintle Bren would bethen obsolete.

- Buff Brit Artillery Spotter
This one is problematic. People wrote about it on the old forum and somebody mentioned that when paradrop to enemy territory was enabled, players dropped them near opponent bases and bombarded them outright from camo n cover. You can imagine the problem. Maybe just give him the evasive action so you would have to sneak the spotter to somehow to the enemy territory? I think that Evasive action and paradrop anywhere combination is too OP. Or maybe make them buildable in RA infantry glider?

- Buff Super Pershing Armor
Not sure if this is a good idea. With the command car SP can outrange pretty much anything so the units you describe should not be able to actually take the shot at SP. SP is also very expensive so you shouldn't let it attack alone. Support is needed so some Shermans and infantry to spot AT guns and other targets.

-Buff Bazooka vs Long-Barreled Panzer 4 (Ausf J)
P4 J and H come with armor skirts upgrade which reduce penetration chance (by about 10% iirc) but that shouldn't make them invulnerable...I will look into files to check this

-Change Bazooka Cost-Effectiveness
This has something to it.

-Buff PIAT Speed
I once got an answer that British are a faction with bad infantry AT capablities and that's why all Brit doctrines have a access to Fireflies and Achilleses so buffing the PIATs would kinda break this principle.
Maybe just give the British a reward unit of a Bazooka squad that replaces the PIAT squad?
- if this happens who will ever use PIATs from that point on?

-Buff Sherman Upgrades
I would rather see the upgrades cheaper than increasing their effect tbh.

-Buff US 57mm AT Gun
The reload rate should be fixed. Accuracy is the same as the pak38 and penetration is only slightly worse than pak 38. So yes for RoF, for others no from me.

-Buff US 30 cal MG Emplacement
We talked about this in the other topic, I'll keep my opinion there.
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Warhawks97
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Re: Definitive List of Things to be Fixed

Postby Warhawks97 » 07 Dec 2014, 22:41

[quote="Wake"]Here is a list of generally agreed upon things that are either unbalanced or need to be fixed so far, and it's comprehensive. Basically everything. Please tell why you agree or disagree.

-Buff Churchill Armor
-Buff Jeep Damage
-Nerf PaK 36 HE Rounds
-Fix Bren Carriers
-Buff Brit Artillery Spotter
-Buff Super Pershing Armor
-Buff Bazooka vs Long-Barreled Panzer 4 (Ausf J)
-Change Bazooka Cost-Effectiveness
-Buff Sherman Upgrades
-Buff PIAT Speed
-Buff Sticky Bombs/Nerf PE AT Grenades
-Buff Sherman Upgrades
-Buff US 57mm AT Gun
-Buff US 30 cal MG Emplacement
-Buff US 30 cal MG Emplacement



About Pak HE rounds:

The biggest issue is that it is a crazy early kind of assault gun. I am using it in every game and i can use it in defense against everything but also as offensive weapon knocking out inf behind cover, enemie weapon crews and combined with schwimmwagen and krad you simply surround and kill enemie Pak with a single HE shot. My last opponents in 2 vs 2 gave all up after 4 mins when i destroyed their pak with my pak and HE rounds. I am able to push back the enemie till base by just sending first two volks squad in and then pak which kills every resistant so far.




Jeep: agreed and when somone comes with "but its much better in 1 vs 1 vs schwimmagan" then i would say adjust that via TT. This 1 vs 1 doesnt happen anyway and as markr said its just a recconassaince vehicle while axis have mobile MG platforms with good suppression etc.



Sticky bombs: Nothing should be nerfed or buffed just stickies could be cheaper. They have lower range than at nades and molotow cocktails, less damage and less crit chance but cost most and need upgrade. 10-15 ammo and not more for each sticky bomb. Unlocked automatically when WSC is up.

Bazookas: They have horrible accuracy and they seldomly hit anything. Low penetration values and low damage. I know from coh2 that zooks shoot faster. Maybe we can reduce rof and also lower cost of at squad a bit at least as they come not even close to axis Panzerschreck squads and as they are less usefull against late game axis armor. So higher rof and slightly reduced cost for AT squad.


US 57 mm at: well the rof is insane. Slower than german tanks with 88 mm guns and axis heavy gun. Lower rof and adjust pen against certain units.


You wrote "buff sherman upgrade" twice.



Whats better on US regular MG? The silly emplacment - or rather tent- has vcoh weapon stats. It basically kills nothing (had that recently as my opponents used it) not even my pios. And hell remove that shit vcoh tent with immortal gunner and add a new emplacment looking like the cal 50 one just with Mg 1917 (see other topic).



Sherman sandbags: well its pretty painfull in cost and about cost efficency idk. Today an e8 got easily killed with two hits from 50 mm several times. Heavier guns doesnt care about sandbags at all. Also at the other side i see unupgraded shermans surviving 3 schreck hits.

Of what i know is that these sanbages give HP and armor. The first gives 10% more HP. Makes for E8 +70HP (from 700-770) which isnt that much. For other shermans even less. The second gives 0.85 pen multiplier afaik. Means when a weapon has 100% pen chance against sherman its lowered to 85%. Considering then that many axis guns have more than 100% chance to pen it this upgrade hasnt ssuch a great impact. Even a Tank IV is still above 80% pen chance on max range against basic and 76 sherman (e8 bit lower. Beside that those upgrades have also negative effects. Accleration is reduced and it also needs longer to break which reduces flexibility. Still booth things together cost 600 mp and 60 fuel.

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Wolf
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Re: Definitive List of Things to be Fixed

Postby Wolf » 07 Dec 2014, 23:04

Not a single axis problem in definitive list? :o

E: Okay, I missed the one nerf :D
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Re: Definitive List of Things to be Fixed

Postby Wake » 07 Dec 2014, 23:40

Wolf wrote:Not a single axis problem in definitive list? :o

E: Okay, I missed the one nerf :D


Well, there are many axis problems as well, but the allied ones are more pressing and just more noticeable in general. I still feel as if the axis are overpowered. The only time allies are overpowered are in city maps like Lyon or Bedum because of the availability of automatic weapons for Americans. CQB Squads and Rangers with Thompsons are unstoppable in cities.

One thing with the allies is that US combat engineers come out way too early for their weapons. No other unit gets automatic weapons so quickly, everyone else is stuck with bolt-action rifles or garands. The result is that combat engineers can quickly close the gap and massacre units like volks or panzergrenadiers that just have kar 98's.

Some axis specific problems are that they have so many useless vehicles. Look at how many halftracks are available in the Krieg Barracks or the Logistik Kompanie. It's like someone just slapped any weapon they could on the back of a halftrack. Many of these vehicles are very cost-ineffective, and even within them the weapons vary widely. There are like 10 different units that have a 20mm KwK on them, yet they are all different. Ie the Puma's is very good, the Gepard and the Wehr halftrack's are pretty bad, and the PE 20mm turret halftrack is in the middle.

Also, PE AT squads only getting 1 Panzershreck is questionable. The Wehrmacht one gets 2 panzershrecks but both cost 360MP, and the only real difference is that the PE one can shoot a panzerfaust, but that costs 35 munition. I'd much rather take the 2nd panzershreck.

Hauptsturmfuhrer for PE I think is overpriced, it's 400 MP for 3 people and takes incredibly long time to build.
The Waffen SS squad is somewhat overpriced, considering it costs I think 700 MP and needs upgrades for good weapons, and in reality costs 1100 MP because it must be called in by the Haupt.
I think the 3rd PE Building is overpriced, the one that costs 550MP and 60 fuel.
Hotchkiss is a very useless unit, it's terrible vs all units unless it is used as artillery, in which case it is overpriced, needing 50 muni for the rocket upgrade and 50 to fire.
Do all the upgrades for PE infantry in the Infantry Support Center do anything? There is Veteran Sergeant and Field Craft, and I don't know if they have any actual effect.

But honestly, I don't notice many problems with axis because they aren't as obvious as they are with the allies.
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Re: Definitive List of Things to be Fixed

Postby Warhawks97 » 08 Dec 2014, 00:07

Wake wrote:
Wolf wrote:Not a single axis problem in definitive list? :o

E: Okay, I missed the one nerf :D


Well, there are many axis problems as well, but the allied ones are more pressing and just more noticeable in general. I still feel as if the axis are overpowered. The only time allies are overpowered are in city maps like Lyon or Bedum because of the availability of automatic weapons for Americans. CQB Squads and Rangers with Thompsons are unstoppable in cities.

One thing with the allies is that US combat engineers come out way too early for their weapons. No other unit gets automatic weapons so quickly, everyone else is stuck with bolt-action rifles or garands. The result is that combat engineers can quickly close the gap and massacre units like volks or panzergrenadiers that just have kar 98's.

Some axis specific problems are that they have so many useless vehicles. Look at how many halftracks are available in the Krieg Barracks or the Logistik Kompanie. It's like someone just slapped any weapon they could on the back of a halftrack. Many of these vehicles are very cost-ineffective, and even within them the weapons vary widely. There are like 10 different units that have a 20mm KwK on them, yet they are all different. Ie the Puma's is very good, the Gepard and the Wehr halftrack's are pretty bad, and the PE 20mm turret halftrack is in the middle.

Also, PE AT squads only getting 1 Panzershreck is questionable. The Wehrmacht one gets 2 panzershrecks but both cost 360MP, and the only real difference is that the PE one can shoot a panzerfaust, but that costs 35 munition. I'd much rather take the 2nd panzershreck.

Hauptsturmfuhrer for PE I think is overpriced, it's 400 MP for 3 people and takes incredibly long time to build.
The Waffen SS squad is somewhat overpriced, considering it costs I think 700 MP and needs upgrades for good weapons, and in reality costs 1100 MP because it must be called in by the Haupt.
I think the 3rd PE Building is overpriced, the one that costs 550MP and 60 fuel.
Hotchkiss is a very useless unit, it's terrible vs all units unless it is used as artillery, in which case it is overpriced, needing 50 muni for the rocket upgrade and 50 to fire.
Do all the upgrades for PE infantry in the Infantry Support Center do anything? There is Veteran Sergeant and Field Craft, and I don't know if they have any actual effect.

But honestly, I don't notice many problems with axis because they aren't as obvious as they are with the allies.






Vehicles are e general problem. Allied have same probs and CW has the most usless vehicles. CW is the only faction where i dont even know which doc has which vehicles. We in general has pretty cool vehicles. The Gepard idk coz i never used it. The 20 mm vehicles are pretty cool but differ from each other for unknown reasons.


abotz AT squads: WE has the horrible ability tread breaker which turns those weapons into fast fireing weapons that outrange tanks... wtf. The PE at squad isnt that bad. With SE this squad had incendiary which enables them to kill commandos, the luftwaffe has already AT weapons for their reg 5 and gebirgsjäger and TH doc has also two schrecks and faust 100 + vet 1 even. They are real bad ass.


SS squad cost 550 for 7 men with sniper. Hauptsturmührer once cost 420 and 71 per men. Got lowered to 400 and 42 or something like that. Compared to others its pretty cool as he can hide and 3 men increases survivability a lot compared to captain, officer or leutnant and WE officer and captain cost 250-260 and die quickly in combat which makes Hauptsturmführer on long term by far more cost effective than those two as it requires only reinforcment cost and not build cost and furthermore Hauptsturmführer keeps his veterancy this way.



Can i ask what will happen to inf doc 107 mm mortar emplacments? The abilities are still bugged.

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Re: Definitive List of Things to be Fixed

Postby MarKr » 08 Dec 2014, 00:39

Do all the upgrades for PE infantry in the Infantry Support Center do anything? There is Veteran Sergeant and Field Craft, and I don't know if they have any actual effect.


Field craft increases the capture rate of your infantry by a lot.
Veteran sergeant increases the experience your troops get by 25% (means they get Veterancy faster) and lowers the speed by which they get suppressed by 25%.
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Re: Definitive List of Things to be Fixed

Postby Wolf » 08 Dec 2014, 00:40

MarKr wrote:
Do all the upgrades for PE infantry in the Infantry Support Center do anything? There is Veteran Sergeant and Field Craft, and I don't know if they have any actual effect.


Field craft increases the capture rate of your infantry by a lot.
Veteran sergeant increases the experience your troops get by 25% (means they get Veterancy faster) and lowers the speed by which they get suppressed by 25%.

The second part would actually be debuff, if we would make suggested suppression change for CoH2. Kinda funny.
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Re: Definitive List of Things to be Fixed

Postby Warhawks97 » 08 Dec 2014, 01:26

Wolf wrote:
MarKr wrote:
Do all the upgrades for PE infantry in the Infantry Support Center do anything? There is Veteran Sergeant and Field Craft, and I don't know if they have any actual effect.


Field craft increases the capture rate of your infantry by a lot.
Veteran sergeant increases the experience your troops get by 25% (means they get Veterancy faster) and lowers the speed by which they get suppressed by 25%.

The second part would actually be debuff, if we would make suggested suppression change for CoH2. Kinda funny.



Its taken from vcoh just as the inf armor types and many different HPs for soldiers. Some of the BK team wanted it to be changed right at the beginning for the BK mod (inf types etc) just xali did not for some reasons. Also such upgrades doesnt exist afaik in coh2 and if then they would need to be changed. If something like that would exsit than it wouldnt simply reduce the suppression in general and rather unlock an ability fot the panzergrens to remove suppression if wished for a few seconds.



One question Markr: When field craft is upgraded how good is the capture speed exactly? Is it higher compared to other units or not? In vcoh the capture speed was faster than without but still lower than those of US rifles and WE Grens (which had 150% capture speed compared to 83% of Panzergrens after field craft. Schwimm and vehicles had always 100% in vcoh).

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Re: Definitive List of Things to be Fixed

Postby Yummy » 08 Dec 2014, 02:55

-Buff Churchill Armor
-Buff Jeep Damage
-Nerf PaK 36 HE Rounds
-Fix Bren Carriers
-Buff Brit Artillery Spotter
-Buff Super Pershing Armor
-Buff Bazooka vs Long-Barreled Panzer 4 (Ausf J)
-Change Bazooka Cost-Effectiveness
-Buff PIAT Speed
-Buff Sticky Bombs/Nerf PE AT Grenades
-Buff Sherman Upgrades
-Buff US 57mm AT Gun
-Buff US 30 cal MG Emplacement

-Buff Churchill Armor
Absolutely yes. As I said many times late churchills were able to withstand shots from Pz.Kmpw Tiger. We all know their performance in BK 1, the discussion is rather unnecessary.

-Buff Jeep Damage
Yes, needed.

-Nerf PaK 36 HE Rounds
It is an insane early game unit. It should be able to shoot only 1 HE shot for 25 ammo.

-Fix Bren Carriers
Bugged unit. 2 mgs are shooting at panzergrenadiers = nothing happens. 1 mg shoots from schwimwagen = british section which is more expensive than pngrens is probably dead!

-Buff Brit Artillery Spotter
Good way of thinking, but I would say rather no. RA already has big spotting advantage than SE.

-Buff Super Pershing Armor
I agree with Markr. This unit is deadly if used right.

-Buff Bazooka vs Long-Barreled Panzer 4 (Ausf J)
I would like to see fixed bazookas, corresponding to reality. Worse chance of penetrating then panzerschreck, but similar accuracy. At the moment accuracy issue is really problematic with them (as well as penetration).

-Change Bazooka Cost-Effectiveness
I don't know what to say. They are terrible, but I dislike charging a tank, shooting and retreating tactic. Maybe wolf should put 4-5 sec aiming delay, before they are able to shoot.

-Buff PIAT Speed
I think they represent the reality. PIATs were disliked by british infantry.

-Buff Sticky Bombs/Nerf PE AT Grenades
I would like to see all close combat AT grenades buffed. Tanks should be in danger if they happen to be close to infantry.

-Buff Sherman Upgrades
I have no opinion here. I am satisfied with upgraded and over repaired shermans. They take 3 shrecks.

-Buff US 57mm AT Gun
Bugged unit.

-Buff US 30 cal MG Emplacement
Not only the emplacement, but all allied mgs need a huge buff. It is ridiculous, axis can stop your advance with 1 MG, but with brits (for example) you cannot stop luftwaffe superunits, which come after 3 command points, even with 2 mgs firing simultaneously.

Surely there are more problems. Why an identical weapon (20mm and 28mm) has very different performance. Why halftracks mgs are for decoration, when they were intended to be some sort of protection against infantry?

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Re: Definitive List of Things to be Fixed

Postby MarKr » 08 Dec 2014, 11:50

One question Markr: When field craft is upgraded how good is the capture speed exactly? Is it higher compared to other units or not? In vcoh the capture speed was faster than without but still lower than those of US rifles and WE Grens (which had 150% capture speed compared to 83% of Panzergrens after field craft. Schwimm and vehicles had always 100% in vcoh).


OK, basic capture speed is "1" (100%) I don't know how many seconds that is but I guess that it is different for each kind of resource point since generaly talking strategic points are captured faster than others. Anyway - PE infantry has 0.75 (75%) as their cap speed without upgrade. The upgrade has speed multiplier of 1.67, which gives the total speed of capturing 1.2525 (125,25%).
Riflemen squad has capture speed of 1.5 (150%) so they are still better by a bit.
Tommy and Volks squads have 1 (100%).
So from the basic infantry PE becomes the second fastest capturing.
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Re: Definitive List of Things to be Fixed

Postby Kasbah » 08 Dec 2014, 12:36

Hi all,

I've been playing this mod since early 2010 but never participated in the forum.
I agree with most of what wake said. And I would add, could we reduce Grenadiers price? 430 is way too much considering volks costs almost the half. And Grenadiers were basic infantry.
Maybe 390 or 360 would be more attractive.

Thanks

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Re: Definitive List of Things to be Fixed

Postby Wake » 08 Dec 2014, 13:24

Kasbah wrote:Hi all,

I've been playing this mod since early 2010 but never participated in the forum.
I agree with most of what wake said. And I would add, could we reduce Grenadiers price? 430 is way too much considering volks costs almost the half. And Grenadiers were basic infantry.
Maybe 390 or 360 would be more attractive.

Thanks


This is also a good idea. I almost never use grenadiers and I almost never see the enemy use them. Part of this is because of the side effect of Blitzkrieg and Terror doc having their "go-to" units of stormtroopers and Knights Cross. Oddly enough, Stormtroopers are better than grenadiers but cost less at 400 MP and Knights Cross are much better and cost only about 200 MP more, so it's worth it for many Wehrmacht players just to spend the grenadier resources on other units.

The only time I ever see grenadiers is when a player goes Defensive doctrine, because they are stuck with them, it's either overpriced grenadiers or crappy volksgrenadiers that can't hold their own against most allied infantry.
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Re: Definitive List of Things to be Fixed

Postby MarKr » 08 Dec 2014, 13:49

Yes, this is a good idea. Grenadiers are overpriced atm.

Oddly enough, Stormtroopers are better than grenadiers but cost less at 400 MP

Especially this one is really crazy.
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Re: Definitive List of Things to be Fixed

Postby Warhawks97 » 08 Dec 2014, 15:11

Kasbah wrote:Hi all,

I've been playing this mod since early 2010 but never participated in the forum.
I agree with most of what wake said. And I would add, could we reduce Grenadiers price? 430 is way too much considering volks costs almost the half. And Grenadiers were basic infantry.
Maybe 390 or 360 would be more attractive.

Thanks



Did you read the old forum stuff at least?

I also dislike such high cost for a unit which is called "regular or basic unit". Thing is that this squad is dealing with rangers at most ranges easily (except close range when those have thompsons). Their only weakness are missing close range weapons. Having those upgrades available grens would able to fight with all other elite inf units even on close range. Just yesterday i did face several grens from my opponent and quite often MG´s did nothing at all to them. First an e8 was shooting at a squad staying on a field (player probably forgot about them) and nothing did happen to them. Later under fire of 3 e8 and they lost no men during two attacks on my e8´s. Also a squad attacked my Vickers (taken from CW mate) -which was in a trench- over an open field and managed to get into grenade range, killing the Vikcers HMG and to retreat with 3 or 4 men remaining. So from its performence they are as good as stormtoopers in many situations just that Stormtoopers have close range weaponary available, better abilites, ambush and vet upgrades and special Halftrack. Compared to other elite units such as commandos or ranger they can stand longer under heavy MG fire and can overrun those easier.



I am up for lower cost for WE and CW basic inf squads to increase tactical options for infantry. To be honest i dislike most axis inf unit build cost as they are too high but at the other side they are often showing crazy rambo behaviour. The high build cost of squads doesnt allow greater tactical options with more than two squads involved and squad losses are hard to replace and thus many justifiy the rambo behavior. I would rather see reduced build cost but also less crazy performence differences between allied and axis Humans so that finally the micro and tactical behaviour decides who win the fight between several inf squads.


Also broken are the build/reinforce cost. They should keep in a sane relation but currently many expensive elite units cost once a lot to build (which works as justification for extrem rambo behaviour in combat and the performence is based on those cost and not on reinforce cost) but at the other side they cost just slightly more than basic inf in reinforcment, usually the same and sometimes even less. So during a game the quantity-quality relation breaks up completely. When first- comparng build cost- two or three normal inf squads can be thrown against one elite inf squad it is reduced to a 2:1 relation then 1:1 and finally 0,5:1.


To come back to grens its insane as Markr wrote that stormoopers cost 400 in stormtooper halftrack and build on field in seconds with reinforcment cost of 37 while grens cost 430 and also 37 in reinforcment altough stormtoopers have more and better abilites and later even vet 1 by default.

That grens are used only by def doc isnt correct. I used Grens in terror doc as well (instead kch) and used them with officer and incendiary grenades. For the cost of kch i get grens with officer. They are even more used since kch lost heroic armor type which btw will be replaced soon with a new unit which skin is basically already available (see old forum topic).

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Re: Definitive List of Things to be Fixed

Postby Kasbah » 08 Dec 2014, 17:01

Yes Warhawks, I read the old forum since 2010 and I read that some people (don't know if it was you) suggested for a Grenadiers price reduction but I didn't see anything done and neither this suggestion on Wake's list. I am glad that you agree with that. And also good that Wake's pointed out stormtrooper insane cost compared to Grenadiers, I forgot to mention it.

And yes, I am aware that there is debate going on about KCH since Rhur and even Shadow were moderators, which is a long long time ago. But for the moment this unit is still in the game with the same price than before but without heroic armor.
Last edited by Kasbah on 08 Dec 2014, 17:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Definitive List of Things to be Fixed

Postby Wolf » 08 Dec 2014, 17:04

It has heroic armor, it just doesn't have heroic critical, which made it uber especially against some allied units like .30cal.

I think I never said that "will be replaced soon with a new unit which skin is basically already available"? However KCHs are still evaluated and I am currently leaning mostly to a bit of grenadiers upgrade for terror rather than another new unit.
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Re: Definitive List of Things to be Fixed

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 08 Dec 2014, 17:27

I agree with all, i will add that the Pak 36 needs the same aiming angle radius of his US couterpart, actually all axis AT Guns have a smaller aiming radius compare to allied AT Guns, the 17 Pdr is winning the medal in range and aiming radius.
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Re: Definitive List of Things to be Fixed

Postby V13dweller » 08 Dec 2014, 18:51

The Super Pershing's armour does not need to be changed, I have tested it against every Wehrmacht Weapon, the only thing that could penetrate it reliably, was the Panther, Tiger and King Tiger. I tried the PaK 40 with basic ammo, nothing, APCR, very, very very rarely. PaK 38, about 6 uses (Purchasing this 6 times) only one round got through, causing minor damage. The Panther and Tiger had trouble getting through with the basic AP rounds, even with APCR, they still struggled. No Panzer IV model could get through, even with AP, though in a control test where the SP didn't fight back, they destroyed it with HE rounds. The King Tiger got through on about half the basic AP rounds fired, most of the APCR went through.

I did a very comprehensive test on this, using every vehicle and AT gun available to the Wehrmacht faction. The test environment was controlled, the SP did not fight back, though I did do a unit vs unit scenario, and the SP won against everything except the King Tiger, both of them won equal amounts of rounds, 2/2.

My test results concluded that the SP is a force to be reckoned with, and I believe people are exaggerating how weak it is, I do have some video of these tests somewhere here, though I would be willing to test individual units if you are not believe a word I say.

I discussed the results of my tests on the old forum, if any newcomers may have not seen.

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Re: Definitive List of Things to be Fixed

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 08 Dec 2014, 20:03

V13dweller wrote:The Super Pershing's armour does not need to be changed, I have tested it against every Wehrmacht Weapon, the only thing that could penetrate it reliably, was the Panther, Tiger and King Tiger. I tried the PaK 40 with basic ammo, nothing, APCR, very, very very rarely. PaK 38, about 6 uses (Purchasing this 6 times) only one round got through, causing minor damage. The Panther and Tiger had trouble getting through with the basic AP rounds, even with APCR, they still struggled. No Panzer IV model could get through, even with AP, though in a control test where the SP didn't fight back, they destroyed it with HE rounds. The King Tiger got through on about half the basic AP rounds fired, most of the APCR went through.

I did a very comprehensive test on this, using every vehicle and AT gun available to the Wehrmacht faction. The test environment was controlled, the SP did not fight back, though I did do a unit vs unit scenario, and the SP won against everything except the King Tiger, both of them won equal amounts of rounds, 2/2.

My test results concluded that the SP is a force to be reckoned with, and I believe people are exaggerating how weak it is, I do have some video of these tests somewhere here, though I would be willing to test individual units if you are not believe a word I say.

I discussed the results of my tests on the old forum, if any newcomers may have not seen.



you're actually right about the Super Pershing, i made a battery of test SP vs KT, and the SP won aprox. by 20% the KT iirc.
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Re: Definitive List of Things to be Fixed

Postby Wolf » 08 Dec 2014, 20:17

Problem with SP is not how it performs in 1vs1 tank, but rather in that when you immobilize it, which is not big problem for axis, then its mostly done. And there is no replacement and no PAce after that.
But its "bonus" not normal unit, that makes it somewhat okay.
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Re: Definitive List of Things to be Fixed

Postby Warhawks97 » 08 Dec 2014, 20:59

Again topic about SP? oO

It beat maybe KT and JT etc in 1 vs 1 but it happens rarely (1 vs 1 situations). The top axis anti tank weapon is afterall the schreck and i never have real trouble vs SP. I did immoblize the SP with single AT squad and dealed 50% damage with 3 schrecks and that quite often. Pak 40 arent so common in late game when enemie has CW arty doc. So you usually see schrecks everywhere, even 88 here and there and hidden tanksbuters. Booth SP and Ace get massive damage when running into ambushed JP or Nashorn. So the SP will mainly remain as "second line" unit to knock out enemie heavies when spotted and nobody would run with it into enemie units. And when enemie is smart in offense he attacks with inf only anyway as axis elite inf with massive AT stuff is simply the best offensive units while some heavier TD´s or tanks will join the fight later and waiting for the best moment knocking out the SP. And the speed of SP doesnt allow to run away from Hs 129 anyways. So axis options (88, all TD´s except Hetzer, schreck, hs129 and FW190, even SD2, arty, own Heavy tanks, aces, molotov cocktail, AT grenades, panzerfaust) to kill an SP are much more than allied options (arty, maybe airstrikes but even those cant kill them when on full HP, SP/ace, sticky bombs with some luck, with some luck ambushed and with command vehicle and HVAP buffed jacksons) to knock out elephants and JT´s, JP´s reliable

(SP gets immoblized by SD2 even and schreck tread breaker ability works against it pretty well. US armor doc and Royal Engineer tellermines working bad vs tiger ace and heavier tanks. I once placed heavy tellermines over the entire map (Duclair and once Street to Montherm) and the JT and Tiger Ace drove over several Teller mines without getting damaged or something. Also US cant activate Tread breaker ability against axis super heavy tanks.)

But i dont get the point of this discussion and i dont see any problem with its armor so far. The Weapon which pen the SP could pen it.

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Re: Definitive List of Things to be Fixed

Postby Wake » 08 Dec 2014, 22:14

Well, the real issue on that is the cost of Super Pershing vs Pershing Ace. The SP costs 2000MP and is arguably worse than the Ace which costs 1450. In my own games, I've killed many super pershings with a jagdpanther easily, yet whenever my jagdpanthers face enemy pershing ace's, they miss many of their shots, often not even scoring a single hit before the pershing ace destroys the jagdpanther. I think this is because the pershing ace starts with vet 3, and thus has a very good incoming accuracy deduction from that veterancy that the Super Pershing doesn't get at the start.

I do know that a Vet 2 Super Pershing is better than a Vet 4 Pershing Ace, but until then, the Super Pershing isn't as good, because honestly, if an axis AT weapon can destroy a pershing ace, it can destroy a super pershing.
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Re: Definitive List of Things to be Fixed

Postby Wolf » 08 Dec 2014, 22:48

Lets not talk about SP, my statement on this unit is that its just bonus unit, which nobody forces you to use, and is here more for "fun" factor rather than being serious PvP unit. SP has its advantages and disadvantages, and no changes are planned regarding SP.
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Re: Definitive List of Things to be Fixed

Postby Tiger1996 » 09 Dec 2014, 00:51

4 New important points to be immediately added;
(1) Hey!! All of you guys forgot to talk about the V1 rocket!!!!! It costs really a lot and I swear it does nothing at all... Once I had it launched exactly on the head of a Pershing Ace but magically... Only few damage dealt!!! o.O

(2) The Def doc mobile 88mm pak AT gun shots easily bounces off Pershing tanks!!! While it's a large gun that could be easily spotted and killed, It's a very useless overpriced unit which really needs to be more considered about.

(3) Probably all the Allies self repair abilities are bugged btw... The Armor doctrine field repairs is an example!

(4) A Panther should never cost like this!!! Their cost should be like Fireflys or Jacksons.

About Wake points;
(1) Yes!! I also suggested that long time ago.. a Pz IVH can easily smash a Churchill tank! I totally agree to make their armor much more stronger to the stage or the level of where it should be able to bounce some Tiger tank shots...

But how come the Churchill Ace with short barrel 75mm gun be able to greatly penetrate frontal Tigers armor???!!! I always believed that the Tiger Ace is nothing but a normal Vet 3 Tiger with 2 different abilities which are replaced by another 2 different ones for the normal Tigers, while the Pershing Ace is also believed to be nothing but a Vet 3 Pershing tank... This is correct and fine too!
But the Churchill Ace is no way a normal Churchill tank!!! It has a 75mm gun which almost seems to be acting like a 17p gun! This is how I feel it. But still I might be wrong with it..

***I would highly suggest to replace it with a captured green Panther G tank, would be much more historical and a cool unit indeed. (I said that million times now)***

(2) NO! The jeeps (specifically) the 50.cal one can easily win the Axis motorbikes in 1v1 fights already like Warhawks said! Increasing their damage would be just too bad for Axis.

(3) I jump to the SP thing, NO<NO<NO!!! SP is a bonus unit like Wolf said which should even be totally removed out of the game dude ^^

(4) Bazookas are well known to be bad anti tank weapons which are no way compared with Panzershrecks surely, they should never be better but maybe reducing their cost would be ok!
For PIATs I would just say the same and they are probably well known to be even worse than Bazookas exactly as they currently are and should remain to be!! While reducing the cost of sticky bombs would also be a quite good idea.

(5) The German 50mm paks find a lot of troubles penetrating those E8s that are upgraded with sandbags btw! But well, slightly decreasing the cost of Sherman upgrades would also be fine.

(6) The reloading time of the 57mm gun is the only thing that I would agree on to be improved by being decreased, but increasing its penetration chances???!!! NO!

I guess I was too late to comment on this as that I can see that u guys already said what I would just say as a reply on many of the points!
The Grenadiers cost should be decreased of course.


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