Definitive List of Things to be Fixed

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Sukin-kot (SVT)
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Re: Definitive List of Things to be Fixed

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 09 Dec 2014, 10:16

[quote="Wake"]Here is a list of generally agreed upon things that are either unbalanced or need to be fixed so far, and it's comprehensive. Basically everything. Please tell why you agree or disagree.

-Buff Churchill Armor - of course.

-Buff Jeep Damage - might be, but nerf its hp\damage to bike and scwim, they must have equal chances to take out each other.

-Nerf PaK 36 HE Rounds - dont know, HE mode have less range than normal shells, thats why you usually see how enemie trys to rush you with this pak and move your units away for a while, then atack it. Moreover, if you are planning to use HE mode in early game, that means not to have MG42 or granades for volks.

-Fix Bren Carriers - of course.

-Buff Brit Artillery Spotter - of course no, it already cheap recon which you can drop at front line, alies always have recon advantage with them + his arty abilities.

-Buff Super Pershing Armor - of course no, tigers and panthers already are just a pour kitties when meeting the SP. Problem of SP that its dead as sson as it immobolized (as well as
King\Jagdtiger\Elefant\Tiger ace) Thats why spending all res to 1 unit is always a risky deal.

-Buff Bazooka vs Long-Barreled Panzer 4 (Ausf J) - Not sure, inf doc have 3 zooks in at team, with rocket upgrade they deal with pz4 very effectivly and even can penetrate tigers in front sometimes. Air doc have same buffed zooks for 82d and recoiless for 101. (recoilles actually too effective) Tank doc dont need zooks cause they have tanks...

-Change Bazooka Cost-Effectiveness - might be.

-Buff PIAT Speed - no, PIATs are badass in cities, its always god damn painfully to watch how they immobolize your tank through the building and then making 1 shot after another untill tank will not be dead, and you cant do anything.

-Buff Sticky Bombs/Nerf PE AT Grenades - stickies must be cheaper yes, but no reason in nerfing PE grenades at all.

-Buff Sherman Upgrades - they already provides huge buffes, only price can be decreased a bit.

-Buff US 57mm AT Gun - at least RoF, yep.

-Buff US 30 cal MG Emplacement - whats wrong with it? It kills good i think

Ok, now let me add some points, ill devide it to armies.

ALL
-Fix weapon drops for rangers, 101s, stromtroopers, stormgrenadiers and close combat teams. Very annoying that they are loosing their weapons with every def.

USA

1) Passive camo for airborn squads. All elite inf in game have it ( commando, storms, luft, rangers ) why they dont?
2) Nerf recoiless, very weird that it nearly never bounces from pz4 and penetrates panthers in front. Moreover, 101 can carry 6 (!) of them, which is absolutely deadly to all early-mid game vehicles, but thats fine actually, they just musnt have such crazy penetration and accuracy.
3) Usa tank doc fuel upkeep, its too damn high, 4 for 1 sherman....no comments.
4) Sherman m4 with HE, have crazy effectivness for its cost, in tank doc it costs 300 mp and stops ANY infatry in ANY ammount, sometimes kill whole luft\stroms squad with 1 shot. I really swear that in needs a nerf of RoF ( must be same as for Scot or even lower ). And dont tell me pls that axis have ostwind which acts like the same, NOPE, ostwind cant survive 3 (or sometimes even 4) schrecks, havent got supression ability ( which makes it impossible to atack tank with at teams), available only in 1 doc (Bk) and still cost more ( 500 mp\ 400 mp with mass prod), its also can be taken down even by 37mm pak and cant immobolize tanks. I quite often see how HE sherman immobolize panthers and tigers, but thats ok.
5) Reduce Scott fuel price, after accuracy nerf nobody use it, cause imba 400mp sherman better in everything. Also, can you add arty barrage ability to it?
6) Add Victory target to inf doc, it really needs it.
7) Add 75mm howitzer to motorpool.

CW

1) First and biggest issue, remove endless VT using from arty doc, spotters and recce must share the cooldown of it, but cooldown can be decreased to 150 seconds in that case. My last game was with Warhawks together, and cw arty is just ridicoulous, i killed 20 heavies totally, they could do nothing, endless deadly bombing, nothing cant stand. My teammates finnaly just were holding line with some troops and we didnt need nothing more, arty killed everything. Btw, VFA, didnt you save this replay?
2) Priests rate of fire on high vet. level. With 4 veteranacy it shoots almost every second and tanks just cant drive away, first shot immobolize, second, third > death.
3) Commando. They too suck at the beginnig and too OP in late game, i think we should buff their basic perfomance but nerf influence of command tree ablities.
4) Already said about churchils.
5) SAS are always miss shots with their zooks, something wrong here.

Wehrmacht

1)I think def doc can have both units, stupa and grille. Cause lets remember all nerfs which happened to them.
Grille:
- number nerf, were available 2 of them in old times.
- splash damage nerf, it very often do zero damage when hits near the target, although its 150 mm.
- accuracy nerf
- price increased
- Ammo per shot increase ( was 35)

Stupa:
- huge accuracy nerf
- range nerf ( in old times could outrange paks)

With all this changes i think they both can stay in def doc. Also stupid, before last brumbaer nerf nobody used Grille, now nobody use Stupa.

2) Grenadiers must have mp40 and, as already mentioned, less cost.
3) Terror doc. Here we need a really big balance rework, cause with last patch it became a really useless doc (bullshit nerfs lol). Previous time it was powerfull late game doc, vet. kch + 5 nebels + vt + some tanks worked fine. Now ritters are probably the worst elite inf in cost\perfomance ratio, 2 nebels with vt is not enough even for destroing vickers emplacement, and i cant even imagine how much you need for 17 pounder nest. Pay attention that terror have too much useless abilities in command tree ( all propohanda tree is useless cause of its cost, goliaf mass prod useless, spy system useless, pz4 unlock useless cause it cant protect it self against infatry and also expensive, fire shells for mortars useless, in mid-late game nobody use inf mortars cause arty dominates already + PE mortar truck have this fire shells basicly, so you can just ask teammate to use it where you need, incendinary weapons was ok when ritters could use fire nades, so, this is also useless cause works only for grens which are useless itself :D (need mp40 and better price), zeal ability have a very little effect and i for example cant feel the difference with or without it. For sure walking stuka must have much better damage, propohanda must be cheaper, ritters must be better. Terror changes were marked as *experimental* in wolfs patchnote and i belive that experiment failed hard, because in last month i saw Terror doc something like 2-3 times, although before it was as often useable as Blitzkrieg.

PE
-Can you add SE VT ability to kettenkrads? Lots of units have it but all are not effective (pz4 too expensive and vulnerable to everything, observation truck cant protect itself, Hauptstrumfuhrer is always very risky to use, cause he needs time to activate VT, can be easily killed while just standing).

- TH doc...well, everybody knows it. Here i totally agree with Warhawks, we need old panzer division doc. That doc just make games stupid as for alies and for germans also. Alies will just stop producing tanks cause of too much tankbusters on field. Axis player is just bored with doc cause all he can do is spam TD's. Revivng old tank doc + royal enginiers buff + usa tand doc fuel upkeep fix will return all good tank fights.

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Re: Definitive List of Things to be Fixed

Postby Tiger1996 » 09 Dec 2014, 11:26

mm, let me guess... Why did u change ur name Vodka?! :D I bet it's u ^^ Same old profile picture.. and also the same style of speaking or typing :P

But well anyways; Very well said btw ;) I agree with most of ur points!!! :)

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Sukin-kot (SVT)
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Re: Definitive List of Things to be Fixed

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 09 Dec 2014, 15:26

Tiger1996 wrote:mm, let me guess... Why did u change ur name Vodka?! :D I bet it's u ^^ Same old profile picture.. and also the same style of speaking or typing :P

But well anyways; Very well said btw ;) I agree with most of ur points!!! :)

Thats my original nikname which i using for 5 years or something, comrade was just for fun.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Definitive List of Things to be Fixed

Postby Warhawks97 » 09 Dec 2014, 18:15

Well, the cost of Panther.... historically they had been just slightly more expensive than a Tank IV but also jacks had been pretty cheap (simple M10 chassis and open turret). So from that point of view booth would be cheaper. for the game its another story. The Panther is a powerfull allround unit very good penetration stats, good armor and decent anti inf firepower. To kill that thing reliable you need 76 guns with HVAP (and still can bounce) or 17 pounders. Inf has trouble killing that tank. The jacks is a pure tank buster and supposed to support other tanks and should not be the target of any enemie tank or at weapon. So to reach that efficency as allied (armor, anti inf capabilites, firepower) you would need basically a jumbo (75) (armor and anti inf) and jackson (firepower). So the Panther is a pretty cost effective unit combining speed, firepower and armor with an fuel upkeep not higher than those of a Jackson. And the cost difference is already only 30 fuel and 70 MP (100mp/40 fuel to Panther G).



The 50 mm is already slightly over the top. Actually the 57 mm was slightly better in penetration as the 50 mm but in game the 50 mm is better as the 57 mm and cost even 20 mp less. Also e8 is already a special sherman with extra armor (later e8 ad 110 mm on lower hull between the treads. forgot the word for that part of the tank) and gives an 0.85 pen multiplier compared to other shermans. Also second sandbags increase armor and add further 0,85 multiplier afaik but also reduces shermans flexibility. For the cost to pay (HVSS upgrade 35 fuel, upgraded production 35 fuel, double sandbags 600 mp and 50 or 60 fuel and the fuel upkeep of e8 which is higher than those of a Panther) i think its fair that 50 mm cant pen e8 at any time with every single shot.



@comrade: I agree with many things. The US cal 30 emplacments kills a shit. It deals 5 damage per bullet. i recently ran into three of them (ask terence or cyber) and nothing happend to my inf at all oO. Three mortar shells killed it and even some small arms fire of my Gebirgsjäger.

About Terror doc, as i said, i never really used them. The limit of nebler belong to my general critic to reduce arty units. Now it would be just nice to get a adequte replacment for the kch. Propaganda and goliath mass production is useless so far. Incendiary mortar is pretty cool and enables you in early game to counter brits mortar emplcamnts. It was usually the first i did unlock. Either that or spy system. In a team, when mate got tanks i could tell him if the enemie had already good AT stuff. It helps a lot to know what enemie has (even base buildings). Also it shows exactly where an emplacment got build without spotting before (howitzers as sample). The Tank IV... well, bad vs inf but still good against most allied armor. Tough a G model would be better than F2. At the other side shermans 76 are also pretty vulnerable to inf and maybe even more s the F2 as the AT weapons (schrecks and 50 mm and worse cal 50 which start killing first on mid-close range) are more deadly to a 76 sherman as a 57mm and bazooka to a F2.

about V1: Its stupid to use it vs tanks. Also ace tanks behave strange. I said already and i also dropped a V1 on a Ace very very long time ago. The ace which got hit directly took no damage at all while nearby persh was destroyed. Also used against Howitzer or pak (emplacments), retreat points and HQ etc this thing is pretty fearsome and killing everything in an area for 200 ammo. Use it against defenses, retreat points/hq´s etc and not vs single tanks. Beside that V1 was never a pinpoint weapon anyway and never used on battlefields. They just flew to London and dropped there randomly (thats why called "Vergeltungswaffe"). It was just used as retaliation weapon for bombed german cities without any usefull impact on germanys strategically position at that time.
Last edited by Warhawks97 on 09 Dec 2014, 19:03, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Definitive List of Things to be Fixed

Postby V13dweller » 09 Dec 2014, 18:27

Glacis plate.

Nothing could be equally priced as real life, or balance would be destroyed, as some teams may have access to very cheap but effect units that would just rush.

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Re: Definitive List of Things to be Fixed

Postby Kasbah » 10 Dec 2014, 09:21

3) Terror doc. Here we need a really big balance rework, cause with last patch it became a really useless doc (bullshit nerfs lol). Previous time it was powerfull late game doc, vet. kch + 5 nebels + vt + some tanks worked fine. Now ritters are probably the worst elite inf in cost\perfomance ratio, 2 nebels with vt is not enough even for destroing vickers emplacement, and i cant even imagine how much you need for 17 pounder nest.

Something really should be done with Nebelwerfers. They have been so brutally nerfed from version to version that they are now pretty useless.
First, their cost was increased from 35 to 50 ammo. Then they got a freezing time after every shot, which can be understandable although the big smoke they create, hence their name, and their slowness, made them not that hard to counter. On the other side there is the rocket launcher jeep that doesn't have any freezing time and moves fast as hell. But what is really amazing is the freezing time after every movement. If by any chance you make a bad orientation or you have to reorient the nebel, you have to wait 3 seconds. When you create it and it gets out of the barracks, it doesn't follow the rally point. You have to wait 3 seconds.

And to top it all, now they are limited to two. When for example you can build 4 howitzer (2 basic and 2 reinforced). As the mate here said, this is not enough to destroy basic emplacements and it makes the Terror victor target simply not attractive

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Re: Definitive List of Things to be Fixed

Postby Wake » 10 Dec 2014, 12:28

Terror VT is still pretty effective, considering that it is used by a combat unit with lots of health that can get right on the frontlines to shoot any target.

The good thing about VT is that it can shoot in between normal nebelwerfer cooldowns and has no range limit, not that it's got a lot of firepower. It's even cheaper at 35 munition than firing a nebelwerfer normally anyway. 2 Nebels is still 12 rockets, players just have to shoot them at the right place. Don't shoot them at infantry units, those will move by the time they hear the rockets coming. Use them against immobile emplacements.
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Re: Definitive List of Things to be Fixed

Postby Kasbah » 10 Dec 2014, 13:22

I agree that 35 is a good price, but now 2 nebels are not that strong to destroy some emplacements, especially Brit's one's. I wouldn't mind to have a higher cost but being able to field 3. As I said, it's a very slow unit, it can be countered easily as it's very identifiable because of its smoke, it has freezing time after every move and shoot, it's very weak and not that strong against some emplacements, nor tanks (infantry yes but as you said, when the enemy hears it it runs away)

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Re: Definitive List of Things to be Fixed

Postby Warhawks97 » 10 Dec 2014, 16:40

Kasbah wrote:I agree that 35 is a good price, but now 2 nebels are not that strong to destroy some emplacements, especially Brit's one's. I wouldn't mind to have a higher cost but being able to field 3. As I said, it's a very slow unit, it can be countered easily as it's very identifiable because of its smoke, it has freezing time after every move and shoot, it's very weak and not that strong against some emplacements, nor tanks (infantry yes but as you said, when the enemy hears it it runs away)




Well, maybe just wait for mates arty who has 105´s or bigger rockets? also kch have still assault ability. Officer has off map arty and nebler can fire incendiary. So its enough to destroy or decrew the emplacment at least and then you can rush through. V1 also can kill that stuff, just combine with an heavy attack.

Furthermore nebelwerfer are the cheapest and earliest arty available. US inf doc needs FHQ for an 75 mm pack howitzer which requires also supply yard and 400 mp and 25 ammo to build and which is also reduced to two.

Also nebler can counter 105 Howitzers pretty well as they have about same range just that howitzer cost more and require unlock and cant move at all. Also for some reasons nebler are very resistant to at weapons and tank guns. Recently 5 sherman shots in a row couldnt kill the crew nor destroying the Nebler.




I say you have options to destoy or at least decrew or damaging Re emplacment critically with Terror doc and thus able to deal with defense by your own. At the other side US Armor doc cant do much vs against a Bunker or 88. Even inf doc can get into trouble when their howitzers are killed by neblers or outranged by enemie arty and facing bunkers at the same time.

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Re: Definitive List of Things to be Fixed

Postby Wake » 10 Dec 2014, 22:52

One idea to make grenadiers better would be to leave their price and stats alone, but give them the same upgrades available to volksgrenadiers.

So in addition to the 100 muni MG42, also have the option for 3 MP40's for 50 Muni, and an MG34 for 75 Muni.

MAYBE a panzerfaust for 50 Muni (and cost 35 to shoot it) but I'm not sure, because they can also get the panzershreck, and a unit with a panzershreck and a panzerfaust and 6, high-health men would be better than an AT squad. People would rather build grenadiers that have just as much firepower and are harder to kill than an AT squad.
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Re: Definitive List of Things to be Fixed

Postby Warhawks97 » 10 Dec 2014, 23:21

Wake wrote:One idea to make grenadiers better would be to leave their price and stats alone, but give them the same upgrades available to volksgrenadiers.

So in addition to the 100 muni MG42, also have the option for 3 MP40's for 50 Muni, and an MG34 for 75 Muni.

MAYBE a panzerfaust for 50 Muni (and cost 35 to shoot it) but I'm not sure, because they can also get the panzershreck, and a unit with a panzershreck and a panzerfaust and 6, high-health men would be OP compared to the AT squads. People would rather build grenadiers than an AT squad.




upgrade for units are limited to three. Mp 40 yeah, would work but then you would have 3 upgrades already. More are not possible afaik.

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Re: Definitive List of Things to be Fixed

Postby Wurf » 11 Dec 2014, 13:17

I would be happy if somehow unified rules basebombing. Each player this unwritten rule interpretation differently and then generates unnecessary guesswork and confusion. Some players say that with arty to the base at all shoots, another player rumored that you can when there are some artyunits, others say that you can not shoot with mortarsquad, or mortarcar and finally it again sometimes explain that you can snipe with arty basebunkr to get into the base ... I'm too tired to listen to over and over and explain. Either disable it completely, or this unwritten rule not taking into mouths ...

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Re: Definitive List of Things to be Fixed

Postby Wake » 13 Dec 2014, 07:38

While the allied issues are generally more pressing, there are a couple problems with axis that should also be fixed that I added to the main post.
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Re: Definitive List of Things to be Fixed

Postby Warhawks97 » 13 Dec 2014, 17:22

Wake wrote:While the allied issues are generally more pressing, there are a couple problems with axis that should also be fixed that I added to the main post.



i did read AAAND:D

Ok. Whats the point with the Brandflasche? no damage vs jeep? cant belive that oO.

About Halftracks: Well Def doc has many halftrucks for some reasons and i asked to move the Sdkfz.251/17 with 20 mm also to PE as reward for Opel Blitz. Def doc has most vehicles of all axis docs/factions. Which halftracks do you mean in particular? Terror has just 3 anyway.

On PE side i find the 75 mm Halftrack that is not build as the HE rounds are too weak. The 37 mm for PE could have HE instead accuracy shooting but balance that. It is available right at the beginning for 280 mp and 20 fuel afaik and with HE rounds it would be unstopable except with PAK and even those would have to fear it when it once failed to hit since the german 37 mm Halftracks have very high rof compared to 37 mm paks. That could be fixed as well maybe (rof difference between 37 mm pak and halftracks).

The Vampire is very good. Its very complicate as well. If you put it on enemie sector it draws away half of its income from the enemie and gives it to your team. All other enemie territories that get captured later but which are connected to the one were the Vampire is will also lose half of the income and would be given to axis. Also it shows you any enemie infantry movment in a large area in the fog. So you can even detect enemie crawling spotters and snipers. So this is good as it is just mocst dont know what it can.


Terror doc i agree. Things to unlock that are not needed (cheap goliath) and propaganda cost probably too much.


PE AT squad has just one schreck but therefore gerandes. AS TH doc they get second + panzerfaust 100 with great range. SE gets incendiary grenades which enables them to fight off commandos and also can plant booby traps. Have also faust. Luft doc.... who uses them with luft?

So i dont see a lrage problem. Also when you shoot schreck and then faust they will shoot immediatly again with schreck. Recently i did head on on jumbo and enemie tought i cant kill it with one schreck. I used schreck, faust, schreck and jumbo was down.




My personal thing that need to be pushed in my opinion:

Sticky Bombs: Its worst of all compared to at nade and volks "Brandflasche" as it has lowest range, damage, crit chance and cost more than those and need also upgrade. Reduce cost to 5-10 ammo and unlock automatically when WSC is up. Its used once in thousand years anyway but when it happens and i want to use it i get crazy when i see the cost of 35 (lol) and doing then nothing as most axis tanks have skirts easily upgraded or by default which almot nullify the effect. damn!.


Bazooka AT squad cost efficency: US at squad need cost reduction! They are barely enough to kill some vehicles and struggle killing Tank IV´s. In late game they are just usless victims with poor weapons whereas the german AT squads for same cost and double schreck bring the fear to the Heaviest of the Heaviest and serving till ultimate late game as very powerfull AT units. US at squads usually dissapeared at that time already and nobody really bothers to rebuild them except inf doc maybe but those cost extra ammo for third zook and M6A3C. Cost there are definately not fair nor do they fit in that so called "quality vs quantity".

Tread Breaker ability: hell remove it! It Outranges Tanks (WE,US at squad), turns schrecks and zooks into fast shooting AT with up to 6-9 rockets in a row and are BUGGED. Sometimes they hit the ground and cause engine damaged. Sometimes hitting fron, dealing 0 damage but engine is destroyed (wtf) and sometimes they pen and nothing happens at all! And against certain tanks it cant be used! The PE can use the ability with 37 mm canon Halftrack against SP but US cant use it against JT,KT,Stupa,Elepahnt etc although treads are completely unprotected!

So remove that shit form all units (WE,US at squad, PE 37 mm halftrack, CW Boys AT and maybe others idk)!



Triage center casaulty stations: In BK wounded guys are losses which is stupid. I would like to suggest to reduce cost of triage centers. I mean they quickly get bombed away and US pay 300 for it and get a squad that cost 240. And only for heal 300 is also a lot. I would like to have it as independent buildings. One casaulty clearing station for like 150 MP that picks up wounded guys and one triage/medic station for like 200 MP that heals but which can also pick up wounded if neccessary.
Axis pay 180/10 which isnt that bad considering that the squad cost 265 and having lmg34 avaialble. Brits, well, 300 is a lot but at least they get a squad which cost originally 435 mp and thus WE and CW get it easier cost effective. US pays 300 and the squad cost 240 mp to build. OK it heals as well but still US have it by far less cost effective than others. So my question is: can we divide it into two buildings? one cheap to pick up wounded, one for heal and pick up wounded? or just one that gets build for 150 and then upgraded for some MP so that it also Heals?
Currently its just stupid that nobody really picks up wounded and thus nobody is risking just a single men to attack and to test enemie defenses as every single men lost are also lost ressources.


Edit:

What i forgot:

Unit reinforcment cost: That need to be improved and relations need to be kept up. Right now Basic inf outnumber elites only for a short duration in early game as for each elite squad 2-3 normal can be build but the relation breaks quickly due to the cheap reinforcment cost of Elites so that finally the elites are the quantitative superior number on the field. Thats simply bs. Try to get a kind of "rule" like at least 50% reinforcment cost of the original build cost and for elites maybe slightly more. Currently its like 30-40 % for elites and up to 50-60% for regular inf. If you then consider reinforcment cost as too high like 45 per men for commandos or 55 for Luft in using 55% factor then just drop the build cost a bit (like 400 for commandos instead 500 but then 36 per men instead 32 or for luftwaffe instead 600 and 39 rather 500 and 45). I would even use 60% factor for elites (would make 50 for luft inf when build cost are 500 and 45 for commandos with build cost of 450) and 50-55% for regualrs and then adjusting build cost on it as elites are most likely those with higher vet in late game, vet upgrades in tectree and as one elite cost less in upkeep as 2 or 3 regulars that are needed to stop one elite if not more.

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Re: Definitive List of Things to be Fixed

Postby Wake » 13 Dec 2014, 18:51

I added fuel upkeep in the main post, that's a big issue right now.

As for unit reinforcement costs, yes, there should be some sort of uniform formula or equation to get that. Something like half the cost of the original squad divided by men in the squad.

So for riflemen, which cost 240 and has 6 men, would cost 120/6=20 MP to reinforce. In the game right now, however, riflemen cost 24 to reinforce.

Right now, Panzergrenadiers cost 390 MP, have 6 men, and cost 30 to reinforce. By this new formula, they would cost 33 to reinforce.

However, an elite unit, such as Knights Cross, costs 660 MP to build and has 6 men. Right now, they are 46 to reinforce. The new formula would make them cost 55, which was actually the old reinforcement cost that got lowered in version 4.8.3.

So this formula has some flaws, namely being that it costs probably too much to reinforce. I believe that reinforcements should be cheap, and a premium should be placed on keeping your squads alive. Even if there is one man left, it should be much cheaper to reinforce than to buy a new squad. That said, it should be very damaging to a player to lose an entire squad, and that's what the enemy should be trying to do, chasing down retreating squads to finish them off, knowing that it was worth it than to let them escape.

The problem right now is just the inconsistency between unit reinforcement costs. They should all follow one formula, or at least split into a "regular" infantry formula and "elite" infantry formula, where the "regular" infantry are very cheap to reinforce. Think of volks or riflemen, they should be dirt cheap to reinforce.
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Re: Definitive List of Things to be Fixed

Postby Warhawks97 » 13 Dec 2014, 19:28

Wake wrote:I added fuel upkeep in the main post, that's a big issue right now.

As for unit reinforcement costs, yes, there should be some sort of uniform formula or equation to get that. Something like half the cost of the original squad divided by men in the squad.

So for riflemen, which cost 240 and has 6 men, would cost 120/6=20 MP to reinforce. In the game right now, however, riflemen cost 24 to reinforce.

Right now, Panzergrenadiers cost 390 MP, have 6 men, and cost 30 to reinforce. By this new formula, they would cost 33 to reinforce.

However, an elite unit, such as Knights Cross, costs 660 MP to build and has 6 men. Right now, they are 46 to reinforce. The new formula would make them cost 55, which was actually the old reinforcement cost that got lowered in version 4.8.3.

So this formula has some flaws, namely being that it costs probably too much to reinforce. I believe that reinforcements should be cheap, and a premium should be placed on keeping your squads alive. Even if there is one man left, it should be much cheaper to reinforce than to buy a new squad. That said, it should be very damaging to a player to lose an entire squad, and that's what the enemy should be trying to do, chasing down retreating squads to finish them off, knowing that it was worth it than to let them escape.

The problem right now is just the inconsistency between unit reinforcement costs. They should all follow one formula, or at least split into a "regular" infantry formula and "elite" infantry formula, where the "regular" infantry are very cheap to reinforce. Think of volks or riflemen, they should be dirt cheap to reinforce.



Kch and ranger infiltration squads had been the only squads that had fair build and reinforce cost. But Luft inf, Commandos and stormooper and SAS are ridicoulus cheap to reinforce.

what you said with killing entire squad, well, it is currently good ot kill the entire squad instead just a few men but currently if you fight vs elite inf you MUST kill the entire squad otherwise you have much higher cost as you inflict if you fight them basic inf. At the other side its often enough to kill simply many regulars and not even full squad to be cost effective.

So i want that elite losses should hurt in single men losses but also the squads. Killing full squads is always and advantage but currently thing with elite is that ONLY full squad losses do hurt while single men losses are very easy to replace as the player with elites usually fight only with 2 or 3 squads and thus having great income. At the other side losses of regualrs do always hurt even when not a full squad is lost. Fighting with regulars vs elite means that the player MUST kill the entire elite squad while the one with Elite just have to keep fighting against regulars and for each lost he easily kills 3-4 men or more of regulars but cost difference in reinforcment is just 1 1/2 regular for one elite guy instead 2-3. Counting then the upkeep to that the player with regular inf squads pays even more for each guy lost as the guy with the few elite squads. Esspecially commando and Luft players are literally swimming in ressources (1000+ mp) and even with bk doc in late game using just 3 stormtooper i am able to have like 800+mp in reserve and high income. When i fight with inf doc against luftwaffe player i am really low on MP even when ive killed more soldiers as i lost at the end of the game. Last time i used only cheap rifles with inf doc and killed almost twice as many luft soliders as i lost but still, when watching replay, the luft player had more mp in reserve and ive never been able to push that guy back.

Edit: Maybe i do a small sample of my "daily" experience when fighting with normal inf squad against Luftwaffe.

I have like 3 rifles at leats when i want a realistic chance against a reg 5 inf squad that is not running stupidly into the rifle squads but even then its hard. The Luft player pays first 600 mp for the squad. I had investments of 720 for my 3 squads + at least 135 ammo for BAR´s. It then comes to first clashes and, unless you have urban area with houses and corners etc you can easily calculate to lose 10 of the 18 rifles if not more and each squad isnt really operational after that clash. The Luft player maybe lost 3 or lets say 4 men as rifles need to get closer to be effective and grenades etc. So after that clash the luft player has cost of 600 mp build cost and 156 reinforce cost and if he managed to run away he has not even to retreat. At the other side rifles had cost of 720 mp build cost and 240 reinforce cost + higher upkeep to pay. The more units involved the greater the difference. Sure you can say that i can try combining MG´s snipers and stuff and i tired that but nontheless its hard. Rangers are even worse untill using inf doc with vet upgrade. I tried double cqc vet 2 and normal rangers vs one reg 5 and tried to get close as i always have to do with US and attacked form several sides. As result all rangers died even during retreat while just 2 luft guys died. Since then i have most success by simply using rifles with rifle grenades and captain and keep on distance. That works untill heavier tanks arrive.


You can basically do the same calculation with grens vs commandos or whatever. There build cost are about equal (commandos slightly more) but performence difference is minor untill mid-late game where commandos have vet 2 by default. Just commandos cost less in reinforcment than Grenadiers. I choosed the rifle vs Luft inf sample as this is the most crazy one in my opinion. There i need up to 4 or 5 rifle squads, even more when having some to reinforce and others to fight, captain and rifle nades to beat gebirgs and reg 5 and still it requires intensive micro and even when ive killed twice as many as i lost at the end of the game the luft player is swimming in ressources the longer the fight is lasting and ive got no real advantage.

Wake
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Re: Definitive List of Things to be Fixed

Postby Wake » 13 Dec 2014, 23:06

Yes, that is part of the reason that this game, not necessarily the fault of Blitzkrieg but just the CoH engine, favors a single, powerful unit instead of many, weak units. First off, there is the issue of upkeep in that it takes many weak squads to beat a single strong squad but the weak squads combined often cost more than the single strong one, and the weak squads combined also have more upkeep than the single strong one.

Furthermore, from a player's point of view, it is MUCH easier to micro manage one squad that is hard to kill vs managing many squads that are weak, and individually retreating them when they get low health. This is especially pronounced in tank battles, imagine a Wehrmacht Blitzkrieg doc player builds 5 panzer 4's in an attempt to destroy a super pershing (the MP cost of 5 Blitz panzer 4's = cost of 1 super pershing). The super pershing can immediately destroy 1 or 2 of the panzer 4's, and when the Blitz player tries to flank the super pershing, he has to manually click and tell each panzer what to do, all while the super pershing player just has to back up and turn, controlling just a single unit, which is easy.

The result is that the super pershing would win almost every single time, and if it lost, the player with the panzer 4's is very good. Same goes for Warhawk's 3 rifles vs a Fallshcrimjager squad. To win, the US player would have to put all 3 squads into cover, which is hard considering they won't all fit behind a single stone wall. The Luft player just has to find enough cover for 6 guys, and then he's probably done all he needs to do.
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Warhawks97
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Re: Definitive List of Things to be Fixed

Postby Warhawks97 » 13 Dec 2014, 23:39

The engine doesnt forbid to balance it. Actually the cost relation need to be maintained. When i can build 3 rifle squads for one lufttwaffe squad and when those single one can stand a chance vs the three i dont get why this is not considered in reinforcment cost as well. In vcoh it works this way so far.

Using arround 50-55% for regular and 60%-65% for elites is because of the lower upkeep for the single elite squad and the bonuses those receive usually in their docs (special abilities, vet 1 unock etc). And yeah maybe also because of the micro maybe.


When it comes to tanks its even harder as the player has to manage also the retreat manually + the extrem high fuel upkeep differences between a group of tanks compared to a single tank.


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