Rangers and combat Engineers

[Warhawks97]

I had a topic about it in old forum and i suggested to give combat engineers US armor doc (filling a similiar role as combat sappers in RE doc) and making Rangers a special inf doc unit.


There are several reasons for this suggestion which i will try to point out.


The first thing is that i see currently little sense to build rangers. If i fight on distance i prefer rifles with BAR and captain (also 7 men rifle squad with two BAR for 300 mp called by captain). And try to get close anyhow is often kind of suicide. Esspecially since pretty much every axis squad has stgs (and lmgs) its only possible to get close by doing an ambush (inf doc only), using masses of rangers (possible only in inf doc). Everyhing else is pointless and they cant match current grens with stgs. They get shred by stgs before thompson get effective. And zooks in late game have also little sense against late game axis armor.

The Rangers have some good moments in early stage. There i try to get them as soon as possible but upgrading zooks as soon as i have 60 ammo to have more protection against scout vehicles (if pak fails) and to fight PE mortar HT´s. But later for their cost (and upgrade cost) they are not really worth to get. Rifles with BAR, captain and then mortars or snipers are "more save" and reliable in killing enemies than trying to get close anyhow with rangers. The M1919 lmg is usefull against volks but later its worth shit.

Also doctrinal reasons:

AB:
-AB uses Airborne rangers with rl´s, zooks and thompsons for free instead using rangers which need to be upgraded first.

Armor:
- Armor cant spend all the ammo to get rangers with zooks (which hardly kill vehicles) or thompsons. Armor doc mainly uses and needs the ammo for suppressive fire, smoke screen, HVAP rounds etc. Why should armor doc spend ammo into zooks and thompsons when they can fight enemie inf with HE rounds at distance and enemie armor with Hellcat or Jacks using HVAP. Here armor doc could use some effective combat support that can fight off paks, killing enemie in close combat while tanks use suppressive fire and which in case could repair tanks in combat situations 8for what the 99 mp squad is not suited and often killed quickly.


So only inf doc is able to get enough rangers with upgrades (cheaper weapon upgrades) to use them usefull and to overrun enemies and getting in close range. Also inf doc has this vet ranger upgrade. Here the combat engineers are usefull in early with grease guns for free but in late game everybody gets rangers with thompsons. There is no more need for combat engineers.




The full suggestion would be as follows:

1. Remove Rangers from Armor doc and AB doc
2. Move combat engineers from inf doc to armor doc
3. Optional: Buff Rangers as they die too fast considering they should be elites but here they hardly stend a chance vs grens and since they got stgs its often suicide to get close somehow. If they would get buffed to be able to stand a chance against axis inf they would be excluded from Inf doc mass production upgrade. The Other option is to keep them as they are but therefore still affected by inf doc cheaper inf upgrade.




I just think that this would make more sense. And as i said: Armor spends ammo into suppressive fire, smoke, HVAP, HE rounds and AB gets AB rangers with free AT anyway.

Tell me your minds.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

One more thing: In ranger truck there is a unit called Infiltration rangers and it cost twice more than normal rangers, but perfomance is the same actually (exept booby traps and weapon for free). I think they can have 2 Bars upgrade for 90 ammo, so inf doc will have reliable long range inf ( or idk, maybe doc will be OP than, cause Luft stands no chances against Inf actually)

[Warhawks97]

One more thing: In ranger truck there is a unit called Infiltration rangers and it cost twice more than normal rangers, but perfomance is the same actually (exept booby traps and weapon for free). I think they can have 2 Bars upgrade for 90 ammo, so inf doc will have reliable long range inf ( or idk, maybe doc will be OP than, cause Luft stands no chances against Inf actually)

yeah, i talked about them in old topic. They are no way better than normal rangers and after the vet upgrade normal rangers have same abilities and performence as the infiltration rangers (except booby traps). And after massproduction upgrade the normal one cost 270/22 while the infiltration cost still 400/45 but is no way better. Many people just dont know that and wasting res for nothing.


I would suggest actually that the rangers get buffed and limited in numbers as well but comparable to german stormtooper squads. The Ranger and infiltration ranger squad would be simply the same and called simply Rangers. Cost would be 360/30 as currently and limited to 3 squads or 400/34. Weapon upgrades would be like currently. Maybe one or two of them would have an Thompson right at default.


But how exactly the rangers should be then in inf doc can be discussed here.


luft no chance vs inf? oO. Luft struggles against late game commandos and AB but not vs inf doc actually.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

When Inf player combining masses of rifles + snipers + 107mm mortars + jumbos there are no way for Luft, just helpless, belive me). At least from my experince when 2 equaly good players are fighting on their sides in 2v2, its usually very hard for Air player.

[Warhawks97]

When Inf player combining masses of rifles + snipers + 107mm mortars + jumbos there are no way for Luft, just helpless, belive me). At least from my experince when 2 equaly good players are fighting on their sides in 2v2, its usually very hard for Air player.

then it depends on early stage. I think if you camp too long with luft then you will lose. But if you get wirbelwind+ gebirgs fast the inf spam is a nice feed for them. Wirbel+gebirgs+sd2 in front will do a good job. Its situational and map depending. But can we concentrate on the topic now? oO

[Wake]

Rangers are a very delicate topic, but I agree with some of Warhawk's points. Getting close with rangers is hard, and you might as well just make rifles with grease guns.

But what's funny is the secret combat engineers unit. Not many people know what this unit is, or that it even exists. But it is very very good, and possibly even overpowered. It's for the infantry doc and costs 300 MP, and can be built right from the start of the game. The OP thing is, though, that all 6 members of the squad get grease guns for free. This means that these guys will massacre all early game axis infantry. It is a common sight to see combat engineers chasing volks and panzergrenaders as they run for their lives and try to dodge the hail of bullets. Combat engineers also get that ridiculous special grenade that is devastating to units in buildings (usually kills entire squad if inside a house).

The thing is, Rangers are more expensive than combat engineers and riflemen+grease gun yet their performance is not as good. The only redeeming thing is that they can get a bazooka, but the player could choose to build an AT squad for the same price and no munition.

But I like Rangers as they are, just as an option for all docs. Airborne uses them as a placeholder until they get 101st, infantry doc uses them as late-game infantry once they get the veterancy upgrade, and armor can use them as support for their tanks once they get a bazooka.

Also, don't forget that the rangers CAN be a very good long-range unit. Give them the 30 cal MG and they become quite deadly. I don't know if it's a bug, but many times I've seen the single ranger with the 30 cal mow down 6 guys incredibly quickly, as if he's some sort of ace marksman that headshots all of his targets. Has anyone else seen this? He doesn't use the normal 10-round burst, he shoots only 2 bullets, which always kill someone, and then immediately moves on to the next target and shoots 2 deadly bullets again.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Ye, 30 cal. is very good, when they have vet 3 perfomance is almost equal to MG42.

[Warhawks97]

I had success with cal 30 vs volks and at mid range its OK. But at distance, for what it is made for, its sucks. I dont get any grenadier killed.


The thing simply is as follows. When i play as armor doc i rather run fast for vehicles and then shermans with HE rounds etc and that means that i have simply much better use if ammo with armor doc as to spend it for a single zook (that seldomly kills a puma in one shot). I build at best one ranger squad with armor doc but later i dont use them anymore and leave them just to cap points or they stay arround in base.


and with AB everybody goes for 101st. Note this pls:
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=496

The 101st would require only 1 CP and so rangers would not be neccessary as placeholder anymore.


And for inf doc the combat sappers are quite dangerous but also very vulnerable and later inf doc uses rangers as assault unit. Here armor doc could need some close range units that can clean put ambushes, houses and doing some repairs on tanks without the need to spend any ammo for close combat weapon upgrades as the ammo is needed for tank abilities. Thats my thought