Thoughts on Tank Damage Reworks

[Walderschmidt]

So here’s my thoughts on the tank damage reworks. TL;DR?

The damage reworks are a success because they improve the overall tank combat experience of BK while still feeling like one is playing the BK mod rather than something else. Allow me to elaborate.

1. Why do people play Blitzkrieg Mod?

To gauge the true of effectiveness of the changes it’s important to consider why people play BK mod in the first place. With that in mind, one can then decide whether or not the Tank Damage Reworks (TDR) jive with the BK experience, add to it, or detract from it.

With a very informal polling, I’ve heard a lot of people say that they play BK mod because tanks get one shot. What I think they are really saying, if you read between the lines, is that they play BK mod because their units and tanks actually accomplish things. They actually kill stuff and can be killed. This is in stark contrast to vanilla where infantry appear to play patty cake for five minutes before they start shooting one another and a Tiger tank might have to shoot a Sherman 5-6 times to kill it.

With that in mind, I can happily say the TDR add to the BK experience. At the bare minimum, they don’t change how efficacious one’s tanks feel. Sure it is true that it is more common to kill tanks in three hits than before but usually the first or second hit is a crippling crit that will doom the tank if it continues to fight. Tanks are often mobility killed or vision killed long before they explode into oblivion. And even then, 2 shots and one shots have not disappeared. Their chances are just lower.

2. Tank Combat is no longer binary or beholden to RNJesus

The main problem with current BK tank combat is that it binary in the sense that tanks generally die in one or two hits. Couple that with RNG and you now have a situation where RNG has undue influence over tank combat because of one or two hit rolls.

With the tank damage reworks, there’s a larger variety of outcomes when your tank gets hit. It will either penetrate or not. Deflections now do roughly 10% of damage to a tank as opposed to nothing. Then, if the round penetrates, it could either kill a tank in one shot, take half it’s health, or take about a third to half of it’s health. Often times, instead of just an outright dead tank, your tank will get crit’d bad enough that you need to roll it back for repairs.

This translates into winning fights too. I have hardly seen any trades since I have played with TDR which was always frustrating. Secondly, even if you win an engagement, your tank often times has a crit that encourages you to retreat it for repairs. This helps prevent completely crushing wins/losses that would otherwise start the snowball for or against any particular player, especially when there’s very few tanks on the field.

3. Tank combat is more rewarding

Before RNG played such a factor in tank fights that often times it felt like BK’s punishing gameplay went full circle from rewarding good gameplay to punishing it. Now, it feels as if good gameplay is rewarded and poor choices are punished as usual.

In one of my last games, Rappa attacked my base with 6 x Sherman tanks (a mixture of 75mm and 76mm). Facing him, was one uncamo’d Stug IV and 2 x 75mm PaKs. As he attacked, he vaporized my Stug. It got hit once with an immediate main gun crit (unfortunate) and two more shots put it down. My AT guns shot twice. The first two shots killed one tank in one hit and crit another. More shots and more crits. Rappa’s 50 cals killed one PaK and mauled another. Before he could finish that one off, a StuG arrived from the other side the map, just in time to kill a 75mm Sherman. The new arrival turned the tide from a losing fight to one I was narrowly winning. Even then, Rappa could have pulled back saved possibly 2-3 tanks.

After the game Rappa said he felt that he should have won that engagement but I rewatched it with Kwok from my perpsective and Rappa’s with fresh eyes. Ultimately, Rappa should have won that engagement but he made two three chief mistakes.

First, he attacked AT guns with tanks, which is generally a losing proposition, especially if your tanks aren’t spread out. To be fair, he didn’t have the vision to see two, but he did see one and he knew he was facing one StuG and one PaK. It’s still a risky fight.

Secondly, he didn’t advance on the AT guns when fire upon. His 50 cals almost took out both AT guns from a distance anyway, but ultimately, tanks do better against AT guns up close.

Lastly, I checked and Rappa did in fact have enough munitions to use HE shots. If he did, he would have won the fight having lost only one tank, especially if he got closer to the AT guns rather than engaging from a distance.

That said, the engagement I had with Rappa would have been even more one sided if it took place in the current BK patch. Rappa’s numbers counted for a lot more here than they would have otherwise. Therefore, I believe that skill now plays a larger role in TDR tank combat than it does in current BK.

4. Playerbase concerns

The last point I’ll make is about the player-base. Let’s face it - a large amount of the player-base, for good or ill, are Axis fanboys. They like to see Tigers, Kingtigers, Panthers, and Jagdpanthers eat Shermans for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. In some cases, you could argue that some players play Company of Heroes more like League of Legends or other MOBAs (and big boi tanks are the heroes). So a fear is that this player base will react negatively to the changes, seeing them as nerfs to their favorite toys in game. I think these concerns are credible but also contain a silver lining.

The first thing is that I think the vast majority of players wouldn’t notice too much difference in medium vs. medium tank combat. I didn’t for the first couple games - I was only able to say it felt good and normal. Now I can say it feels better.

The second thing is, I think the way you could approach the big tanks would be a layered approach. Take the percentage of 1 shot kills and reduce it a little bit and fill in the space with crits. However, I propose that there be a variety of crits from high to low damage. Heavy tanks could have a high chance to just about always do heavy crit damage even if they don’t one shot a (medium tank). That way, even if they don’t kill medium tanks in one shot as much, they still feel (and are) very powerful against medium tanks. And in the same token, facing a Tiger tank with three to four Shermans won’t feel like a one-sided feeding time, if you can at least mobility crit the bastard and give yourself time to figure out a solution.

Heavy tank vs heavy tank combat could get the same treatment as medium versus medium and feel just about the same.

If necessary, big tanks could get very minor touches so that the playerbase gets uses to the TDR changes. Then a new patch could get the rest of the distance, without much fanfare or backlash. Like feeding a dog medicine by hiding it in ham.

5. Layering the TDR

I’d argue that the tiers and calibers of guns should matter. So for example, medium versus medium would stay where it is. Heavy versus medium would have a higher percentage of one shots and heavy, crippling crits. Medium versus heavy would have sparse one shot and heavy crit chances with lots of medium to light crit chances. Perhaps you could make heavy versus medium deflections do 1/4-1/5 damage with a chance of spalling, and deflections of medium vs. heavy do 1/15 to 1/10 damage. Medium vs. medium 1/10 to 1/5 damage. The point is not the numbers but layering the tier differences with the TDR to make it feel authentic and intuitive. I’ll try to draw up a chart at some point to better illustrate my ideas. There should also be a range of crits from light to medium to heavy, where light crits can be repaired at 60-80% health, medium crits 75-90% health, and heavy crits should be repaired at 100% health.

6. Information: Informing the player is key

The last point I will make is that there needs to be a way to display the damage or crit in such a way that a player is never kept in the dark, even if by accident, about the damage their tank has suffered and what is required to fix it. For example, in one of my last games in a three v three, my Beute Firefly had an optics crit but I didn’t fully repair it because my engies had to run around and I forgot I had the damage because there were no damage indicators on the tank model or on the unit card/tank blueprints.

I understand that there is a limited ability, if any, to modify unit models to display damage, but at the very least, clicking on a unit needs to show damage it has on it’s unit card. I also recommend potentially a graphic that details on the unit icon, kind of like MGs, STGs display above infantry icons to tell players what they are facing.

Perhaps tanks could get something to that effect.

Not having a good way to inform and keep the player informed about their tank’s damage stage risks turning every player decisively against these changes, even if they’d like them otherwise.

Overall, I am very excited about these tank damage reworks and what they mean for the future of BK.

[mofetagalactica]

So here’s my thoughts on the tank damage reworks. TL;DR?

The damage reworks are a success because they improve the overall tank combat experience of BK while still feeling like one is playing the BK mod rather than something else. Allow me to elaborate.

1. Why do people play Blitzkrieg Mod?

To gauge the true of effectiveness of the changes it’s important to consider why people play BK mod in the first place. With that in mind, one can then decide whether or not the Tank Damage Reworks (TDR) jive with the BK experience, add to it, or detract from it.

With a very informal polling, I’ve heard a lot of people say that they play BK mod because tanks get one shot. What I think they are really saying, if you read between the lines, is that they play BK mod because their units and tanks actually accomplish things. They actually kill stuff and can be killed. This is in stark contrast to vanilla where infantry appear to play patty cake for five minutes before they start shooting one another and a Tiger tank might have to shoot a Sherman 5-6 times to kill it.

With that in mind, I can happily say the TDR add to the BK experience. At the bare minimum, they don’t change how efficacious one’s tanks feel. Sure it is true that it is more common to kill tanks in three hits than before but usually the first or second hit is a crippling crit that will doom the tank if it continues to fight. Tanks are often mobility killed or vision killed long before they explode into oblivion. And even then, 2 shots and one shots have not disappeared. Their chances are just lower.

2. Tank Combat is no longer binary or beholden to RNJesus

The main problem with current BK tank combat is that it binary in the sense that tanks generally die in one or two hits. Couple that with RNG and you now have a situation where RNG has undue influence over tank combat because of one or two hit rolls.

With the tank damage reworks, there’s a larger variety of outcomes when your tank gets hit. It will either penetrate or not. Deflections now do roughly 10% of damage to a tank as opposed to nothing. Then, if the round penetrates, it could either kill a tank in one shot, take half it’s health, or take about a third to half of it’s health. Often times, instead of just an outright dead tank, your tank will get crit’d bad enough that you need to roll it back for repairs.

This translates into winning fights too. I have hardly seen any trades since I have played with TDR which was always frustrating. Secondly, even if you win an engagement, your tank often times has a crit that encourages you to retreat it for repairs. This helps prevent completely crushing wins/losses that would otherwise start the snowball for or against any particular player, especially when there’s very few tanks on the field.

3. Tank combat is more rewarding

Before RNG played such a factor in tank fights that often times it felt like BK’s punishing gameplay went full circle from rewarding good gameplay to punishing it. Now, it feels as if good gameplay is rewarded and poor choices are punished as usual.

In one of my last games, Rappa attacked my base with 6 x Sherman tanks (a mixture of 75mm and 76mm). Facing him, was one uncamo’d Stug IV and 2 x 75mm PaKs. As he attacked, he vaporized my Stug. It got hit once with an immediate main gun crit (unfortunate) and two more shots put it down. My AT guns shot twice. The first two shots killed one tank in one hit and crit another. More shots and more crits. Rappa’s 50 cals killed one PaK and mauled another. Before he could finish that one off, a StuG arrived from the other side the map, just in time to kill a 75mm Sherman. The new arrival turned the tide from a losing fight to one I was narrowly winning. Even then, Rappa could have pulled back saved possibly 2-3 tanks.

After the game Rappa said he felt that he should have won that engagement but I rewatched it with Kwok from my perpsective and Rappa’s with fresh eyes. Ultimately, Rappa should have won that engagement but he made two three chief mistakes.

First, he attacked AT guns with tanks, which is generally a losing proposition, especially if your tanks aren’t spread out. To be fair, he didn’t have the vision to see two, but he did see one and he knew he was facing one StuG and one PaK. It’s still a risky fight.

Secondly, he didn’t advance on the AT guns when fire upon. His 50 cals almost took out both AT guns from a distance anyway, but ultimately, tanks do better against AT guns up close.

Lastly, I checked and Rappa did in fact have enough munitions to use HE shots. If he did, he would have won the fight having lost only one tank, especially if he got closer to the AT guns rather than engaging from a distance.

That said, the engagement I had with Rappa would have been even more one sided if it took place in the current BK patch. Rappa’s numbers counted for a lot more here than they would have otherwise. Therefore, I believe that skill now plays a larger role in TDR tank combat than it does in current BK.

4. Playerbase concerns

The last point I’ll make is about the player-base. Let’s face it - a large amount of the player-base, for good or ill, are Axis fanboys. They like to see Tigers, Kingtigers, Panthers, and Jagdpanthers eat Shermans for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. In some cases, you could argue that some players play Company of Heroes more like League of Legends or other MOBAs (and big boi tanks are the heroes). So a fear is that this player base will react negatively to the changes, seeing them as nerfs to their favorite toys in game. I think these concerns are credible but also contain a silver lining.

The first thing is that I think the vast majority of players wouldn’t notice too much difference in medium vs. medium tank combat. I didn’t for the first couple games - I was only able to say it felt good and normal. Now I can say it feels better.

The second thing is, I think the way you could approach the big tanks would be a layered approach. Take the percentage of 1 shot kills and reduce it a little bit and fill in the space with crits. However, I propose that there be a variety of crits from high to low damage. Heavy tanks could have a high chance to just about always do heavy crit damage even if they don’t one shot a (medium tank). That way, even if they don’t kill medium tanks in one shot as much, they still feel (and are) very powerful against medium tanks. And in the same token, facing a Tiger tank with three to four Shermans won’t feel like a one-sided feeding time, if you can at least mobility crit the bastard and give yourself time to figure out a solution.

Heavy tank vs heavy tank combat could get the same treatment as medium versus medium and feel just about the same.

If necessary, big tanks could get very minor touches so that the playerbase gets uses to the TDR changes. Then a new patch could get the rest of the distance, without much fanfare or backlash. Like feeding a dog medicine by hiding it in ham.

5. Layering the TDR

I’d argue that the tiers and calibers of guns should matter. So for example, medium versus medium would stay where it is. Heavy versus medium would have a higher percentage of one shots and heavy, crippling crits. Medium versus heavy would have sparse one shot and heavy crit chances with lots of medium to light crit chances. Perhaps you could make heavy versus medium deflections do 1/4-1/5 damage with a chance of spalling, and deflections of medium vs. heavy do 1/15 to 1/10 damage. Medium vs. medium 1/10 to 1/5 damage. The point is not the numbers but layering the tier differences with the TDR to make it feel authentic and intuitive. I’ll try to draw up a chart at some point to better illustrate my ideas. There should also be a range of crits from light to medium to heavy, where light crits can be repaired at 60-80% health, medium crits 75-90% health, and heavy crits should be repaired at 100% health.

6. Information: Informing the player is key

The last point I will make is that there needs to be a way to display the damage or crit in such a way that a player is never kept in the dark, even if by accident, about the damage their tank has suffered and what is required to fix it. For example, in one of my last games in a three v three, my Beute Firefly had an optics crit but I didn’t fully repair it because my engies had to run around and I forgot I had the damage because there were no damage indicators on the tank model or on the unit card/tank blueprints.

I understand that there is a limited ability, if any, to modify unit models to display damage, but at the very least, clicking on a unit needs to show damage it has on it’s unit card. I also recommend potentially a graphic that details on the unit icon, kind of like MGs, STGs display above infantry icons to tell players what they are facing.

Perhaps tanks could get something to that effect.

Not having a good way to inform and keep the player informed about their tank’s damage stage risks turning every player decisively against these changes, even if they’d like them otherwise.

Overall, I am very excited about these tank damage reworks and what they mean for the future of BK.

There is a new Beta to try out? couldnt see any new post in the forum

[MarKr]

There is a new Beta to try out? couldnt see any new post in the forum

The forum has mostly been moved to the Discord (info post).
It is not a beta but more of an alpha at this stage.

[Jagdpanther]

There is a new Beta to try out? couldnt see any new post in the forum

The forum has mostly been moved to the Discord (info post).
It is not a beta but more of an alpha at this stage.

i wonder why this forum died

[Walderschmidt]

There is a new Beta to try out? couldnt see any new post in the forum

The forum has mostly been moved to the Discord (info post).
It is not a beta but more of an alpha at this stage.

i wonder why this forum died

It got moved to discord because too many people are too laZy to make an account and post on the forum.

Wald

[Jagdpanther]

The forum has mostly been moved to the Discord (info post).
It is not a beta but more of an alpha at this stage.

i wonder why this forum died

It got moved to discord because too many people are too laZy to make an account and post on the forum.

Wald

no, its because the "patches" are no good

[Walderschmidt]

i wonder why this forum died

It got moved to discord because too many people are too laZy to make an account and post on the forum.

Wald

no, its because the "patches" are no good

I wonder why no one likes you

[Jagdpanther]

It got moved to discord because too many people are too laZy to make an account and post on the forum.

Wald

no, its because the "patches" are no good

I wonder why no one likes you

because you're all the "hive mind" but not in a good way