Luftwaffe Glider

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MEFISTO
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Luftwaffe Glider

Post by MEFISTO »

Hello guys, I have been thinking about giving Luftwaffe a glider to improve Luftwaffe's on-field versatility and cover some of its weaknesses. This glider will be deployed only by Luftwaffe Officer and will be able to reinforce and heal units (this ability will help Gebirgsjaegers to fight behind enemies line having a place to reinforce). This glider will be able to deploy some units, PaK 38 50mm AT Gun, LeIG18InfantryGun, Kettenkrad, HMG42, and 81mm Mortar (after a supply drop upgrade), this mortar and HMG will come with a crew and will cost mp, since the mortar and HMG Supply Drop cost 100 ammunition and no crew, I also would keep this Supply Drop since it is versatile and can be deployed by units anywhere on the map but for a higher cost in resources.

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mofetagalactica
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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by mofetagalactica »

I like the idea

Consti255
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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by Consti255 »

how about just swap out the current ammo/leig18 and mortar drop CP unlock for this glider?
So it would be available after 6 CP and not right after 4 with an heal ability.
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Red
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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by Red »

But if this comes, and it sounds like a plan, please also fix the Officers/Retreat points in Luft.
Both the Gebirgsjäger and the Pioneers have the PE Officer as a retreat point, but seem to get no bonuses from him:
Luift Gebirgs Retreat.jpg
Luft Pioneers retreat.jpg

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MarKr
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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by MarKr »

So Luft would have the benefit of paradrops like AB, but also the benefit of "glider HQs" just like RAF. All of that combined with the strongest weapon upgrades for infantry in a doc that has Panthers available.
When we added 50mm mortar to PE, some people were complaining that we're mirroring factions but here nobody has a problem with mirroring the advantages of AB and RAF for a doctrine that already has advantages over AB and RAF?
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kwok
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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by kwok »

Also as far as I know, there are no axis glider models. So that means there would need to be a big marketing campaign to the historical realism nerds about why an allied glider is dropping with axis inf.

Consti255
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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by Consti255 »

MarKr wrote:
26 Jun 2022, 18:23
So Luft would have the benefit of paradrops like AB, but also the benefit of "glider HQs" just like RAF. All of that combined with the strongest weapon upgrades for infantry in a doc that has Panthers available.
When we added 50mm mortar to PE, some people were complaining that we're mirroring factions but here nobody has a problem with mirroring the advantages of AB and RAF for a doctrine that already has advantages over AB and RAF?
Maybe just a Gebirgs glider ?
Where just Gebirgs are able to fall back to it ?
So its utility is limited just for such unit.
Nerf Mencius

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MEFISTO
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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by MEFISTO »

MarKr wrote:
26 Jun 2022, 18:23
So Luft would have the benefit of paradrops like AB, but also the benefit of "glider HQs" just like RAF. All of that combined with the strongest weapon upgrades for infantry in a doc that has Panthers available.
When we added 50mm mortar to PE, some people were complaining that we're mirroring factions but here nobody has a problem with mirroring the advantages of AB and RAF for a doctrine that already has advantages over AB and RAF?
You can’t not compare RAF gliders with a tons of units and options like lights vehicle, 75mm artillery AT gun, HE, Etc… with the one I proposed here, and it sounds funny when you talk about a NERFED panther, that can be 1 shut by an Achilles, what advantages are you talking about? Allies have air superiority over luftwaffe (I am ok with that) and Falls feels way weaker than any Allie’s paratroopers even after all the upgrades. Actually the worst way to play Luftwaffe is going for falls unlock (in my opinion) regular PE infantry feels stronger the this falls.

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MEFISTO
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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by MEFISTO »

kwok wrote:
26 Jun 2022, 20:07
Also as far as I know, there are no axis glider models. So that means there would need to be a big marketing campaign to the historical realism nerds about why an allied glider is dropping with axis inf.
I don’t mind to see it, actually axis glider looks the same as Allie’s glider. Take a look at Maginot Line assault by luftwaffe using gliders. I am not saying someone won’t complain but I am ok with that. It is up to you guys to implement this idea. If you guys want of course.

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MarKr
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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by MarKr »

MEFISTO wrote:
26 Jun 2022, 22:53
You can’t not compare RAF gliders with a tons of units and options like lights vehicle, 75mm artillery AT gun, HE, Etc… with the one I proposed here, and it sounds funny when you talk about a NERFED panther, that can be 1 shut by an Achilles, what advantages are you talking about? Allies have air superiority over luftwaffe (I am ok with that) and Falls feels way weaker than any Allie’s paratroopers even after all the upgrades. Actually the worst way to play Luftwaffe is going for falls unlock (in my opinion) regular PE infantry feels stronger the this falls.
well, you proposed the glider to have 50mm AT gun (RAF has 57mm AT gun), LeiG18 (which works as RAF's field gun and pack howitzer in one unit + it camoes), HMG and Mortar team (just as RAF), and a scout unit in form of Ketten (OK, RAF doesn't have one, maybe sniper could work as kinda spotter). Works as a retreat point and should he soldiers around (just as RAF). It doesn't have all the infantry squads but they are mostly para dropped so no need for that.
So is it so weird that with this change Luft would feel like a mishmash of AB doc and RAF doc mechanics?

Panther still has strong frontal armor, you just have to make sure you don't expose its ass.

I always find it confusing how we get feedback from people that directly contradict each other. You say that Fallsh feel weaker than any Allies paratroopers and there are people who still complain that 101st is a joke unit, only good for feeding XP to opponent :D

Anyway, I'm not directly against it. I'm just surprised how sometimes the community can make a fuss about making docs more similar and at the same time sometimes supports making docs more similar that's all. Although, as kwok said - there is no model for it so I don't know.
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tarakancheg
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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by tarakancheg »

Ok. But, why do we need it?
There is no model of the axis glider (allied ones have insignias of CW docs).
This is a straight buff to Luft, which is not a "weakes doc".
If you want to have an "all unit retreat point" use Haupt rally point (retreat to rally point needs a keybind btw).
What is exactly "air superiority" here? number of airstrikes? Well luft has 3 (strafe with mg+cannon, stuka and hensch), RAF has 3 (HE, rocket, flame)
US AB has 3 (strafe, rocket, HE). Or ability to use them on CD? then Luft and AB cover part/most of the cost with Fuel while CW has lower CD and trucks can be used as OP.
All of the units you name can be produced with FHQ, and according to CW vehic glider (which has pack howi and field gun) cant produce not on allied ground so FHQ works just fine.
Weak mortar up untill Mortar HT is intended PE weakness earlygame that makes it possible to withstand them with proper use of support weapons of allies because every other aspect of PE early game unit roster is equal or way better (US engies /rifles) than their allied counterpart.
Also panther for luft is... i dunno... way better than any allied non pershing tank?

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MEFISTO
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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by MEFISTO »

tarakancheg wrote:
27 Jun 2022, 01:37
Ok. But, why do we need it?
There is no model of the axis glider (allied ones have insignias of CW docs).
This is a straight buff to Luft, which is not a "weakes doc".
If you want to have an "all unit retreat point" use Haupt rally point (retreat to rally point needs a keybind btw).
What is exactly "air superiority" here? number of airstrikes? Well luft has 3 (strafe with mg+cannon, stuka and hensch), RAF has 3 (HE, rocket, flame)
US AB has 3 (strafe, rocket, HE). Or ability to use them on CD? then Luft and AB cover part/most of the cost with Fuel while CW has lower CD and trucks can be used as OP.
All of the units you name can be produced with FHQ, and according to CW vehic glider (which has pack howi and field gun) cant produce not on allied ground so FHQ works just fine.
Weak mortar up untill Mortar HT is intended PE weakness earlygame that makes it possible to withstand them with proper use of support weapons of allies because every other aspect of PE early game unit roster is equal or way better (US engies /rifles) than their allied counterpart.
Also panther for luft is... i dunno... way better than any allied non pershing tank?
In some maps as luftwaffe you can’t make any FHQ because there is not any building near by or close enough to the battlefield (Allies don’t have this problem since AB can make their own FHQ and RAF has gliders). When I Said Allie’s have air superiority is because they have airstrikes in 2 doctrines ( That is fine since axis have better heavy tanks capabilities) and also Allie’s can drop supplies, and yes I know Luftwaffe can drop the cost of their airstrikes. Talking about heavy tanks, Jackson are performing good as they supposed vs any axis heavy tanks ( I like it) luftwaffe panther is not match for a camouflage Jackson or the Infantry Jackson (it was intended by devs).
One think that I really like from Allie’s is their versatility, after luftwaffe falls got nerf they feel weak, even with all cp upgrade, so I think this glider can help at least with gebirgsjaeger reinforce.

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mofetagalactica
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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by mofetagalactica »

kwok wrote:
26 Jun 2022, 20:07
Also as far as I know, there are no axis glider models. So that means there would need to be a big marketing campaign to the historical realism nerds about why an allied glider is dropping with axis inf.
I would be ok with just a re-skin of the british glidder and fuck it, and this glider could totally work for the gerbs (that aren't really that useful anymore) and have the support weapons locked behind the weapon support cp unlock.

Also glidder should be only usable in neutral/allied territory/scouted-territory ?

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idliketoplaybetter
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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by idliketoplaybetter »

If gebiegs get that, well you gotta take their tricky stats and magic weapons of them. Since the reason they couldn't reinf by air, was to make them different from Falls and so on..

I am actually unsure if this change would help intensify gameplay, or make it more camp around my glider blob shit.

Considering this change is very alike to what raf (had and was) pre latter change in terms of blobs, this will likely make game slower.
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Mood
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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by Mood »

MEFISTO wrote:
27 Jun 2022, 03:39
tarakancheg wrote:
27 Jun 2022, 01:37
Ok. But, why do we need it?
There is no model of the axis glider (allied ones have insignias of CW docs).
This is a straight buff to Luft, which is not a "weakes doc".
If you want to have an "all unit retreat point" use Haupt rally point (retreat to rally point needs a keybind btw).
What is exactly "air superiority" here? number of airstrikes? Well luft has 3 (strafe with mg+cannon, stuka and hensch), RAF has 3 (HE, rocket, flame)
US AB has 3 (strafe, rocket, HE). Or ability to use them on CD? then Luft and AB cover part/most of the cost with Fuel while CW has lower CD and trucks can be used as OP.
All of the units you name can be produced with FHQ, and according to CW vehic glider (which has pack howi and field gun) cant produce not on allied ground so FHQ works just fine.
Weak mortar up untill Mortar HT is intended PE weakness earlygame that makes it possible to withstand them with proper use of support weapons of allies because every other aspect of PE early game unit roster is equal or way better (US engies /rifles) than their allied counterpart.
Also panther for luft is... i dunno... way better than any allied non pershing tank?
In some maps as luftwaffe you can’t make any FHQ because there is not any building near by or close enough to the battlefield (Allies don’t have this problem since AB can make their own FHQ and RAF has gliders). When I Said Allie’s have air superiority is because they have airstrikes in 2 doctrines ( That is fine since axis have better heavy tanks capabilities) and also Allie’s can drop supplies, and yes I know Luftwaffe can drop the cost of their airstrikes. Talking about heavy tanks, Jackson are performing good as they supposed vs any axis heavy tanks ( I like it) luftwaffe panther is not match for a camouflage Jackson or the Infantry Jackson (it was intended by devs).
One think that I really like from Allie’s is their versatility, after luftwaffe falls got nerf they feel weak, even with all cp upgrade, so I think this glider can help at least with gebirgsjaeger reinforce.

Even 75mm autocar, Stuart and M4 Shermans are penetrating Panther D frontally at long/mid range :lol: They're absolutely useless and I never build them as Luftwaffe.

Edit: Regarding the main topic here, I agree that factions shouldn't be too identical to each other. On one hand I don't mind seeing some new addition to Luftwaffe, but preferably not something too identical to what AB/RAF has.

Consti255
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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by Consti255 »

idliketoplaybetter wrote:
27 Jun 2022, 07:20
If gebiegs get that, well you gotta take their tricky stats and magic weapons of them. Since the reason they couldn't reinf by air, was to make them different from Falls and so on..

I am actually unsure if this change would help intensify gameplay, or make it more camp around my glider blob shit.

Considering this change is very alike to what raf (had and was) pre latter change in terms of blobs, this will likely make game slower.
i dont think so, since you still have your FsR5 which can operate on their own and wont retreat to the glider aswell.
It will most likely just act as the current medic HT + hauptsturmführer + Gebirgs combo.

The problem i see, is that the Luft commander can also just place a retreat point, which will turn the glider into a multi purpose retreat/reinforce/heal point for all doc specific units just like RAF.

It would be okay, if the Luft commander looses his ability to place a retreat point. On top, i would remove the medic HT from Luft aswell, to balance things out.
So blobbing arround the glider, gets minimized. Aswell, it should have less reinforce range as the RAF glider, get unlocked with the boobytrap/Leig18/mortar drop CP unlock, to make it just a support tool and nothing more.
Aswell, we could finally remove the Leig18 drop out of the creates to prevent bugging and high ammunition costs for the LeiG and make it the only unit buildable in the glider.
Mood wrote:
27 Jun 2022, 15:54

Even 75mm autocar, Stuart and M4 Shermans are penetrating Panther D frontally at long/mid range :lol: They're absolutely useless and I never build them as Luftwaffe.
Thats nonesense honestly. They still have the same good armor as they had before any changes, and those canons you mentioned have penetration chances on mid/longe nearly 0-5%.
The Panther D still sucks because of its missing top MG and slow turret rotation. So its most likely just a Tank Destroyer with better armor but no camo. And you should use it as that.
Nerf Mencius

Mood
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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by Mood »

@Consti

The irony in all this is that this actually happened to me on Monastery Hill in a game two hours or so before I opened the forum and saw the thread. A 75mm autocar and a Stuart managed to penetrate the same Panther D frontally at mid range, in succession.
In any case this thread is about Luftwaffe gliders and whatnot, so I'll leave the Panther D discussion at that :D

Consti255
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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by Consti255 »

Mood wrote:
28 Jun 2022, 23:54
@Consti

The irony in all this is that this actually happened to me on Monastery Hill in a game two hours or so before I opened the forum and saw the thread. A 75mm autocar and a Stuart managed to penetrate the same Panther D frontally at mid range, in succession.
In any case this thread is about Luftwaffe gliders and whatnot, so I'll leave the Panther D discussion at that :D
Replay ?
Nerf Mencius

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CGarr
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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by CGarr »

I like the idea. I think it'd establish some better synergy between gebirgs, luft officer, and fallschrimjagers. After the latter clears an area, the other 2 can come in and quickly get an FOB setup without being limited by the presence/location of ambient buildings on the map.

About glider camping, I have never seen this be an issue. If someone is blobbing / camping around their glider, it is basically free xp for you if you have any sort of indirect fire available (especially if the glider does not camo itself). Gliders do allow you to maintain pressure on the front with units that cant reinforce by air, but they are destroyed very quickly and the inf reinforcing at the glider would be costly for the enemy to reinforce / lose, so it is a double-edged sword.

Anyways, blobbing at the frontline with luft doc is already easy, their best inf unit (fallshchrimjagers) can reinforce by air already and it is not a challenge to win games without using gebirgs. If someone really wants to blob at the frontline, they would just do it with fallschrimjagers. With this in mind, I think the main thing that having a glider call-in would bring to the table is being able to quickly field support weapons on the frontline (leig, AT guns, etc.).

Having access to AT guns anywhere on the map would be useful for locking down any ground that the fallschrimjagers take without spending fuel on a TD / tank or dragging an AT gun all the way from your nearest base to the captured area (especially considering these latter options might not even be possible if you are behind enemy lines).

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idliketoplaybetter
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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by idliketoplaybetter »

I did not describe this as "an issue" or not, I said, it will encourage more easier ways to blob powerfull stuff around with only counter to it be indirect fire (arty). - which means, slower gameplay. sit and wait for any arty.

And even u say that blobbing is already a thing, with gebirgs being capable to reinf (and I believe heal) nearby the glider, it will become even more cheaper and common type of the play. RAF was exactly that. Cheap and easy FHQ with heal and shit with AT's + support units.



meh
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MEFISTO
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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by MEFISTO »

idliketoplaybetter wrote:
30 Jun 2022, 21:38
I did not describe this as "an issue" or not, I said, it will encourage more easier ways to blob powerfull stuff around with only counter to it be indirect fire (arty). - which means, slower gameplay. sit and wait for any arty.

And even u say that blobbing is already a thing, with gebirgs being capable to reinf (and I believe heal) nearby the glider, it will become even more cheaper and common type of the play. RAF was exactly that. Cheap and easy FHQ with heal and shit with AT's + support units.



meh
The problem with SAS was the magic smoke and their 2 bazookas AT capabilities for only 2 CP.

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idliketoplaybetter
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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by idliketoplaybetter »

SAS were (or had become) the thing much later of what I meant.

Before that, raf meta was basically never to use SAS due to their extensive price nor they were ever needed due to basic stats for heroic infantry being much stronger.
Lol, regular commandos with free bren and Lee Enfield accuracy were (and for the most part) are, the strongest.

Yet again, here, we already have blobby camping playstyles with Fallshirms and gebiegs are different.

In result, it will surely make gebiegs more useful, but will make blob tendency even bigger thing.


Some say that arty is the only thing to counter and play games now, why? Maybe cause blobbing and camping is already a thing?
Yet again, another potential change to make 1 specific doc just stronger with higher emphasis on infantry.


Meh
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idliketoplaybetter
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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by idliketoplaybetter »

I point again to counter intuitive sense of this propositions.

Most of players never play the game/docs as it is intended by it's core design. Nor this will be used for "fast deploy and hold the line with support equipment".

It's just fast and easy HQ with heals for my camouflaged critting elite infantry blob and crying for over arty matches afterwards.
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MEFISTO
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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by MEFISTO »

idliketoplaybetter wrote:
30 Jun 2022, 22:44
I point again to counter intuitive sense of this propositions.

Most of players never play the game/docs as it is intended by it's core design. Nor this will be used for "fast deploy and hold the line with support equipment".

It's just fast and easy HQ with heals for my camouflaged critting elite infantry blob and crying for over arty matches afterwards.
After Luftwaffe Fallschirmjaegers got nerfed and their weapon price became 50 ammunition and Gebirgsjaegers unable to reinforce this doctrine get forced to play less aggressively, (this doctrine lacks on any early artillery, plus LeIG-18 Infantry Gun cost 100 ammunition :shock: or need an FHQ (some times there is not any building nearby to make it), that is one of the reasons y proposed this glider to give Gebirgsjaegers a place to reinforce and some AT and light artillery support. Even if this glider works like that, It is nothing compared to what RAF gliders and Airborne FHQ can do.

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idliketoplaybetter
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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by idliketoplaybetter »

It is exactly the same as what raf glider is.

Although my point was in different, gebiergs were made something else cause reasons to keep things variable.
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