Luftwaffe Glider

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Consti255
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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by Consti255 »

Arty camping really?

A mortar or mortar HT is already enough to force you out of this location.
Its not like a glider is like a upgraded building into a FHQ with a massive HP pool. Like honestly this mod adds so much explosion tools and ways to force out units out of a certain area.

For me, gliders and forward retreat points are a direct opposite of what you have said, when i play RAF it opens up super agressive playstyle with minimum pause between attacks.
Blobbing arround such gliders is in 80% just a death sentence and a straight XP gift for the enemy
idliketoplaybetter wrote:
01 Jul 2022, 06:36
It is exactly the same as what raf glider is.
its not.
1. no units can be build except support weapons. (LeiG18, maybe mortars? which could be the only 81mm for PE )
2. Glider will need a CP unlock or atleast the healing (same as RAF but you dont get any unit unlocks on top)
3. Less reinforce range for units (harder blobbing, which means easier counter)
4. No camo (makes spotting it way easier, blobbling gets harder and more easy punished)

While it has some similaritys in use, the RAF glider is supperior in EVERY possible way and i think you underrestimate how big of a difference the reinforcement range is of such a buliding/vehicle.
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idliketoplaybetter
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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by idliketoplaybetter »

Sorry, but I was talking to mefisto and cgarr.l, not you.

Will direct it next time.

Markr already pointed how similar these concepts are.

I only conclude that with all that said and least variety of luft units itself, we will get slower gameplay, in contrary to expectations.
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MEFISTO
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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by MEFISTO »

idliketoplaybetter wrote:
01 Jul 2022, 10:55
Sorry, but I was talking to mefisto and cgarr.l, not you.

Will direct it next time.

Markr already pointed how similar these concepts are.

I only conclude that with all that said and least variety of luft units itself, we will get slower gameplay, in contrary to expectations.
I think slower games come if you are force to retreat to the base. It is not a good choice to camp with Luftwaffe doctrine since this doctrine lacks on artillery ( you will basically become to an easy target to other doctrines artillery, even Airborne have a 75mm artillery piece in their motor pool) also panthers are weaker (lower in HP) so, it won’t make a huge difference if you camp to rush this piece of nerfed and expensive garbage.
Bro in my opinion this glider can make this doctrine a bit more aggressive.

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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by Consti255 »

idliketoplaybetter wrote:
01 Jul 2022, 10:55
Sorry, but I was talking to mefisto and cgarr.l, not you.
Where is the difference ?
I just pointed out, that it is not similar.

Or is the HQ glider the same as the RAF glider aswell?

idliketoplaybetter wrote:
01 Jul 2022, 10:55
Markr already pointed how similar these concepts are.
I have to disagree here with Markr. While the concepts may be similar, it is senseless to argue that way honestly. Because german gliders were used massively aswell during the 2. world war.
So speaking of that aswell, it would be the same "similar" concept as paradroped infantry.
Last edited by Consti255 on 01 Jul 2022, 13:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Consti255
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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by Consti255 »

that one 2

Sorry for the spam my PC went nuts
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MEFISTO
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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by MEFISTO »

Consti255 wrote:
01 Jul 2022, 12:27
that one 2

Sorry for the spam my PC went nuts
Lol 😂 you are good bro.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by Warhawks97 »

I dont think having a glider would make the game slower, "blobbier" or more campy. RAF used to be the doctrine being the least campy one. I dont get this argument.

I also think why RAF should be the only doctrine able to capitalize on gliders. Gliders were used everywhere. Wouldnt even mind when AB would also have access to some. When i started BK infantry doctrine had a Glider as well that spawned Rangers and a Sniper, just saying.

So it would make sense to have Glider support for every air doctrine in this game, just that the Glider fullfills different roles. For RAF the Glider would obviously the center of all operations, for other doctrine more an ability to get some heavier equipment to locations where it is needed.


The thing is i dont want yet another lose, single independent unlock somwehere in the middle of the doctrine that is totally out of touch with everything else the doctrine has. Right now Luft focuses heavily on air support (in my opinion probably the most imactfull), heavy defensive ground assets, powerfull elite para units and also above average tank support.


So i am not quite sure how this glider would be connected? With supply drop or replacing it outright? With Gebis so that the Gebis ride into battle via Gliders?

Also we should keep in mind that Luft is not going to become too versatile by combining features of AB, RAF, defensive doctrine as well as having the quite powerfull PE base unit sets with stuff like 75 mm Puma that already allows for a M10 style mobile anti tank support without any doc/CP requirments.



So, before implementing something like this, we would have to make sure that it fits in the doctrinal structure, that the doc is not becoming outright hilariously powerfull and versatile, copy/paste of AB and RAF and that it doesnt receive too many features at once.
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idliketoplaybetter
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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by idliketoplaybetter »

Will there be any trade-off consequences to this change?

As yet, you are basically describing me positive (buffs) for one single doc?

Ah yes, sorry @Mefisto
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MEFISTO
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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by MEFISTO »

idliketoplaybetter wrote:
01 Jul 2022, 17:22
Will there be any trade-off consequences to this change?

As yet, you are basically describing me positive (buffs) for one single doc?

Ah yes, sorry @Mefisto
I really think this like a buff to Luftwaffe, after Luftwaffe got nerfed, girbs are not paratroopers no more and some times it is hard to find and FHQ to deploy some AT and light artillery support to Falls and girbs. Falls HP got nerfed so It would be good to have an FHQ near the battlefield to retreat and come back as soon as possible. This doctrine already got nerf and panthers got nerf, I don’t think they need more nerf. That is my opinion.

Consti255
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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by Consti255 »

idliketoplaybetter wrote:
01 Jul 2022, 17:22
Will there be any trade-off consequences to this change?

As yet, you are basically describing me positive (buffs) for one single doc?

Ah yes, sorry @Mefisto
yes.
Consti255 wrote:
28 Jun 2022, 17:09
It would be okay, if the Luft commander looses his ability to place a retreat point. On top, i would remove the medic HT from Luft aswell, to balance things out.
So blobbing arround the glider, gets minimized. Aswell, it should have less reinforce range as the RAF glider, get unlocked with the boobytrap/Leig18/mortar drop CP unlock, to make it just a support tool and nothing more.
Aswell, we could finally remove the Leig18 drop out of the creates to prevent bugging and high ammunition costs for the LeiG and make it the only unit buildable in the glider.
Presented this.
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idliketoplaybetter
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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by idliketoplaybetter »

Okay Mefisto, so just plain buff for one doc that isnt even the weakest, just not as versatile, so no need for tradeoffs.

Just one point to mention here. Saying "this doc got nerfed" before, is not really a true. All docs were changed in a while or vice-versa in order to maintain balance. However, just Luft want more buff now.


I dont mind this idea not at all, but as I said previously, most of players dont play/use docs intentionally, nor they will this time. Most just blob elite infantry and hope for 1 click strafe to push forward..there is also pleyade of people only doing "Airborn" docs, cause, I dunno, fanatics, as well as, only bkdoc players or so. This will encourage nothing but overplay that we had few patches (heck) years now before.


99% of PE games - luft only.


I just can't like this idea. Sorry bro, this is still way better than that moronic garbage about fuel-arty or camo tetrarch, but won't help intensify games.


@Mefisto awkay
Last edited by idliketoplaybetter on 02 Jul 2022, 10:16, edited 2 times in total.
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Consti255
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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by Consti255 »

idliketoplaybetter wrote:
02 Jul 2022, 10:05
Okay Mefisto, so just plain buff for one doc that isnt even the weakest, just not as versatile, so no need for tradeoffs.

Just one point to mention here. Saying "this doc got nerfed" before, is not really a true. All docs were changed in a while or vice-versa in order to maintain balance. However, just Luft want more buff now.


I dont mind this idea not at all, but as I said previously, most of players dont play/use docs intentionally, nor they will this time. Most just blob elite infantry and hope for 1 click strafe to push forward..there is also pleyade of people only doing "Airborn" docs, cause, I dunno, fanatics, as well as, only bkdoc players or so. This will encourage nothing but overplay that we had few patches (heck) years now before.


99% of PE games - luft only.


I just can't like this idea. Sorry bro, this is still way better than that moronic garbage about fuel-arty or camo tetrarch, but won't help intensify games.
If you dont allow the Luft commander to set down a retreat point for FsR5, they wont be blobbing as you said. And iirc only 2 Gebirgs are allowed at once to field. So 2 Sqauds can only fall back to the glider and reinforce. Is this blobbing?
I mean sure, you can send your FsR5 to that glider aswell, but isnt it more easy if you just let them fall back to the commander and reinforce them on the go ?

And as i said already, playing RAF is super agressive, and is way LESS blobbing than for example infantry doc, Blitz doc or anything else with a forward HT to fall back to.
idliketoplaybetter wrote:
02 Jul 2022, 10:05

This will encourage nothing but overplay that we had few patches (heck) years now before.

99% of PE games - luft only.
There will always be a meta. Right now it is nearly 80% of the games someone playing SE with PE. Thats not an argument.
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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by Red »

My understanding would be, that the glider would replace the LeiG Para-Drop, so while it would be a buff, the Doc would also lose something.

Overall I see two ways to go with such a glider:

1) Gebirgs - Falls joint operation:
For this, the glider would have to be able to build units in territory not connected with the base (maybe even enemy territory). The Gebirgs would be linked completely (buff & retreat) to the Lehrbatallion-Officer, so the Hauptsturmführer would in effect become obsolete for Luft Doc (probably should move the 88mm Artilery to the Lehrbatallion then).

2) Gebirgs as line infantry:
Under this scenario, the glider could only build units when in own territory connected with the base. The Gebirgs would be linked completely to the Hauptsturmführer. I would also propose to then link the Luft Pioneers completely to the Hauptsturmführer as well, and change them from Para-reinforcement to cheaper "regular" reinforcement.

The first scenario would favor a very aggressive playstyle, while the second would be more defensive minded. Personally, I have no preference, as I believe both could be fun to play as long as I would adapt my playstyle accordingly.
For the second scenario, if the glider should technically be problematic, I could also imagine a buildable bunker with the same effects.

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MEFISTO
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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by MEFISTO »

idliketoplaybetter wrote:
02 Jul 2022, 10:05
Okay Mefisto, so just plain buff for one doc that isnt even the weakest, just not as versatile, so no need for tradeoffs.

Just one point to mention here. Saying "this doc got nerfed" before, is not really a true. All docs were changed in a while or vice-versa in order to maintain balance. However, just Luft want more buff now.


I dont mind this idea not at all, but as I said previously, most of players dont play/use docs intentionally, nor they will this time. Most just blob elite infantry and hope for 1 click strafe to push forward..there is also pleyade of people only doing "Airborn" docs, cause, I dunno, fanatics, as well as, only bkdoc players or so. This will encourage nothing but overplay that we had few patches (heck) years now before.


99% of PE games - luft only.


I just can't like this idea. Sorry bro, this is still way better than that moronic garbage about fuel-arty or camo tetrarch, but won't help intensify games.


@Mefisto awkay
Yes bro, I understand your point, players pick always the same doctrines. I personally, if I have to make a PE preference I will go with 1-Panzer Support because I have everything I need, 2- Luftwaffe and 3- SE.
Whit that been said, That is not luftwaffe fault. If you check all change in the past year Allies got buff, more complemented Jackson or Jumbo for infantry, weapons a new load out for airborne, 75mm artillery relatively easy to deploy from airborne and I can continue, Allies really need this buff, I am ok with those.
But at the same time Some axis units have been severely Nerfed, like falls and girbs, yesterday I had a game when I kill a whole Falls squad with rifle man equipped with SMG, It was hilarious seen fallas getting evaporated by RM.
I am just asking for some change for this doctrine to make it more aggressive, some times its hard to find a building to make a FHQ where is the easiest way to deploy a Leigh 18 without paying an insane price( 100 ammunition). I know and I am aware it will be a huge buff, but we should ask why players preferred to play this doctrine over others, not to nerf it, to make change and improve the less playable doctrines without brake the balance of the game. I know this is an extremely hard job, people will always complain and bith..ch about some change, I can be included in that list. But the main goal must be improve without brake the balance of the mod.

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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by tarakancheg »

MEFISTO wrote:
02 Jul 2022, 16:32
But at the same time Some axis units have been severely Nerfed, like falls and girbs, yesterday I had a game when I kill a whole Falls squad with rifle man equipped with SMG, It was hilarious seen fallas getting evaporated by RM.
I dont know how your opponent deployed his Falls to lose to grease gun rifles, but he definetly did something wrong like rushing SMG squad or running out of cover against garands that have 1.25 acc and damage against open cover. Anyway with all the nerfs Falls got their price reduced and lategame i dont see how unveted rifles w/o captain (vet 2 at least) trade good enough against falls.
MEFISTO wrote:
02 Jul 2022, 16:32
I am just asking for some change for this doctrine to make it more aggressive
This is already 2nd most agressive doc in axis roster right after BK.
MEFISTO wrote:
02 Jul 2022, 16:32
Some times its hard to find a building to make a FHQ where is the easiest way to deploy a Leigh 18 without paying an insane price( 100 ammunition).
I would like to remind you that most of the time Luft works in tandem with other doctrines, in team games people always go for balanced doc picks like AB-Armor-Inf because with good teamplay you cover each other weakneses (Armor tanks destroy enemy anti inf, while Inf doc Arty kills all of the AT and AB player escorts tanks with their elite infantry to cover AT inf rushes.
MEFISTO wrote:
02 Jul 2022, 16:32
I know and I am aware it will be a huge buff, but we should ask why players preferred to play this doctrine over others, not to nerf it, to make change and improve the less playable doctrines without brake the balance of the game. I know this is an extremely hard job, people will always complain and bith..ch about some change, I can be included in that list. But the main goal must be improve without brake the balance of the mod.
People play luft for SPACEMARINES. Also as luft you can stack Shrecks on 1 squad, your inf with officer always outguns any other inf, you have click-to-kill airstrikes and gerbigs to infiltrate enemy backlines to kill any AA near houses. Pak 50 is useless for PE when everyone spams Pakwagens.
Your entire sugesstion is built upon 1 single problem:leig is 100 muni and needs a crew, so, maybe we have to work on this issue? and not make 2nd most agressive axis doc even more agressive when it has almost all aspects of the other 2 air docs in game while being at the same level of proficiency with it if not better than allied counterparts?

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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by MEFISTO »

tarakancheg wrote:
02 Jul 2022, 17:04
MEFISTO wrote:
02 Jul 2022, 16:32
But at the same time Some axis units have been severely Nerfed, like falls and girbs, yesterday I had a game when I kill a whole Falls squad with rifle man equipped with SMG, It was hilarious seen fallas getting evaporated by RM.
I dont know how your opponent deployed his Falls to lose to grease gun rifles, but he definetly did something wrong like rushing SMG squad or running out of cover against garands that have 1.25 acc and damage against open cover. Anyway with all the nerfs Falls got their price reduced and lategame i dont see how unveted rifles w/o captain (vet 2 at least) trade good enough against falls.
MEFISTO wrote:
02 Jul 2022, 16:32
I am just asking for some change for this doctrine to make it more aggressive
This is already 2nd most agressive doc in axis roster right after BK.
MEFISTO wrote:
02 Jul 2022, 16:32
Some times its hard to find a building to make a FHQ where is the easiest way to deploy a Leigh 18 without paying an insane price( 100 ammunition).
I would like to remind you that most of the time Luft works in tandem with other doctrines, in team games people always go for balanced doc picks like AB-Armor-Inf because with good teamplay you cover each other weakneses (Armor tanks destroy enemy anti inf, while Inf doc Arty kills all of the AT and AB player escorts tanks with their elite infantry to cover AT inf rushes.
MEFISTO wrote:
02 Jul 2022, 16:32
I know and I am aware it will be a huge buff, but we should ask why players preferred to play this doctrine over others, not to nerf it, to make change and improve the less playable doctrines without brake the balance of the game. I know this is an extremely hard job, people will always complain and bith..ch about some change, I can be included in that list. But the main goal must be improve without brake the balance of the mod.
People play luft for SPACEMARINES. Also as luft you can stack Shrecks on 1 squad, your inf with officer always outguns any other inf, you have click-to-kill airstrikes and gerbigs to infiltrate enemy backlines to kill any AA near houses. Pak 50 is useless for PE when everyone spams Pakwagens.
Your entire sugesstion is built upon 1 single problem:leig is 100 muni and needs a crew, so, maybe we have to work on this issue? and not make 2nd most agressive axis doc even more agressive when it has almost all aspects of the other 2 air docs in game while being at the same level of proficiency with it if not better than allied counterparts?
No you don’t really got the point , the issue is after HP drop for falls, it would be good to have a retreat pint near by the battlefield where to heal plus have some support units like 50 pack AT and light artillery Leigh 18, (must of the time there is not any building tho use as FHQ ) that is my mayor issue. While others paratroopers have this kind os support this doctrine really lack on it. It is sad as a paratrooper doctrine to have to retreat all the way to the base to walk back 4 or 5 minutes later. Also this will especially benefit Girbs ( which I would make this glider work around ).
Any ways this is just an idea, I just trying to help, I don’t want no body to think I give a fuck about balance, this is something that can work with any other trade. It is up to Devs. Any ways thank you for your thoughts.

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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by MarKr »

MEFISTO wrote:
02 Jul 2022, 16:32
we should ask why players preferred to play this doctrine over others, not to nerf it, to make change and improve the less playable doctrines without brake the balance of the game.
We did. We asked about that while working on 5.1.8 changes. What answer did we get? "I like it because it is the most fun." when we asked "what makes it the most fun?" the answer was almost always "I don't know, it just is.". When we kept asking a bit longer we eventually got "I win with Luft most often." So we asked "why do you think you win the most with Luft?" and the answer usually was "It just fits me the best." which is an answer that doesn't answers anything. However, the answer was pretty easy - Luft was easy to play and had everything.
Strong infantry? Yes.
Strong defenses? Yes.
Strong tanks? Yes.
Strong arty (back in the time airstrike was pretty much offmap arty)? Yes.

The doctrine was "fun" and "easy to win with" because every unlock gave you a huge power spike. Infantry was very strong because you unlocked a squad and they didn't need any other unlocks to become efficient. Fallshirms dropped fully equipped with FG42 and a panzerschreck. They had crapload of HP, which allowed them to be dropped into FoW, sometimes directly on an AA unit, and still survive. Gebirgs had also ton of HP but also those defensive bonuses in cover (which allowed them to survive direct hits from CW bombing strike), were paradropped, could reinforce anywhere came equipped with scoped G43s and also an LMG. These guys could easily 1v2, sometimes 1v3 enemy infantry squads.
As for tanks, Hetzer was usually enough to keep most enemy armor at bay and when that failed, Panther (a.k.a. "Tiger 2.0") took care of everything else.
Defense was also easy with 88s covering tanks and flakvierlinks were good against infantry + Gebirgs with defensive bonuses.
With airstrikes you had a plan B for situations when opponent showed up with Pershings and your Panthers/88s didn't do the trick, because Henschels were click-to-kill for any tank, actually many tanks because they fired at any enemy vehicle along the flight path.

When we asked them if Luft needed some nerf, everyone said something like "absolutely not, Luft is a balanced doc". So then I asked "what if we made Commandos start with all unlocks applied?" (because you know...Luft has it and is balanced), and "should AB rocket plane aim at targets rather than shoot blind at the position where you click?" (a.k.a. Henschel) and "should AB get a Pershing?" (closest thing to Panther), "should RAF get 17pounder that rotates 360° and auto targets stuff?" (a.k.a. 88s). The answer was pretty much always something like "LOL you wanna make allies OP, right?".

So we got to a point where Luft players seemed to think that giving Allies mirrored Luft abilities would turn Allies OP but the same abilities on Luft side were "balanced". So when we worked on the doc reworks we could either put all docs on the level of Luft - which would make every doc as universal as Luft and Luft would then no longer feel strong and people would complain that "Luft is now weak". Or we could put Luft to the level of other docs and then Luft players would complain that "Luft is too weak".
We went with the other option. So Fallsh and Gebirgs start weaker and get stronger with more unlocks - just like AB and RAF. They start with weaker weapons and need to upgrade to stronger stuff - just like AB and RAF. Airstrikes are still strong but Henschels no longer shoot at everything along the flightpath. They still keep their defensive options, they still have their Panther - even if Panthers in general got a nerf but their frontal armor and gun are still as strong as they've always been. They also got the command squad with aura, so with unlocks and the aura they are stronger than before. It just takes longer to get to that point - just like for other docs.

So, we put Luft down from its very above average position to be more in line with other docs. Do we really need to make changes to push it above the line again? Will it be fair to other docs? In this case I don't wonder why idliketoplaybetter asks for counterbalance changes because that would keep Luft in line (or at least closer to the line) rather than push it above the line.
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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by idliketoplaybetter »

I am not sure if this is specifically on point and if related, but is it possible to make Doctrines and CP tech tree's alike Tank Support doctrine model more, when we have eventual late game choice to go for Tank hunter brench (jagdpanther and so on) or Tank tree?

For example, to make Luft (and potentially other docs in future) have some sense of that with access for More infantry upgrades and deployable support equipment/weapon crates or better tanks OR work around cheaper emplacement and emphasis on defensive style of the game?

Something like that


It's just, maybe these tradeoffs could be presented somehow else?

It will be simillar to some doctrines conceptually, but not mechanically.

Like, yet we have some CP unlocks on some doctrines (luft in this case) that are not "prioritized" by players, but what if some brenches be more linear and that more risky but stronger/weaker if you see how the match evolves?
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MEFISTO
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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by MEFISTO »

MarKr wrote:
02 Jul 2022, 22:19
MEFISTO wrote:
02 Jul 2022, 16:32
we should ask why players preferred to play this doctrine over others, not to nerf it, to make change and improve the less playable doctrines without brake the balance of the game.
We did. We asked about that while working on 5.1.8 changes. What answer did we get? "I like it because it is the most fun." when we asked "what makes it the most fun?" the answer was almost always "I don't know, it just is.". When we kept asking a bit longer we eventually got "I win with Luft most often." So we asked "why do you think you win the most with Luft?" and the answer usually was "It just fits me the best." which is an answer that doesn't answers anything. However, the answer was pretty easy - Luft was easy to play and had everything.
Strong infantry? Yes.
Strong defenses? Yes.
Strong tanks? Yes.
Strong arty (back in the time airstrike was pretty much offmap arty)? Yes.

The doctrine was "fun" and "easy to win with" because every unlock gave you a huge power spike. Infantry was very strong because you unlocked a squad and they didn't need any other unlocks to become efficient. Fallshirms dropped fully equipped with FG42 and a panzerschreck. They had crapload of HP, which allowed them to be dropped into FoW, sometimes directly on an AA unit, and still survive. Gebirgs had also ton of HP but also those defensive bonuses in cover (which allowed them to survive direct hits from CW bombing strike), were paradropped, could reinforce anywhere came equipped with scoped G43s and also an LMG. These guys could easily 1v2, sometimes 1v3 enemy infantry squads.
As for tanks, Hetzer was usually enough to keep most enemy armor at bay and when that failed, Panther (a.k.a. "Tiger 2.0") took care of everything else.
Defense was also easy with 88s covering tanks and flakvierlinks were good against infantry + Gebirgs with defensive bonuses.
With airstrikes you had a plan B for situations when opponent showed up with Pershings and your Panthers/88s didn't do the trick, because Henschels were click-to-kill for any tank, actually many tanks because they fired at any enemy vehicle along the flight path.

When we asked them if Luft needed some nerf, everyone said something like "absolutely not, Luft is a balanced doc". So then I asked "what if we made Commandos start with all unlocks applied?" (because you know...Luft has it and is balanced), and "should AB rocket plane aim at targets rather than shoot blind at the position where you click?" (a.k.a. Henschel) and "should AB get a Pershing?" (closest thing to Panther), "should RAF get 17pounder that rotates 360° and auto targets stuff?" (a.k.a. 88s). The answer was pretty much always something like "LOL you wanna make allies OP, right?".

So we got to a point where Luft players seemed to think that giving Allies mirrored Luft abilities would turn Allies OP but the same abilities on Luft side were "balanced". So when we worked on the doc reworks we could either put all docs on the level of Luft - which would make every doc as universal as Luft and Luft would then no longer feel strong and people would complain that "Luft is now weak". Or we could put Luft to the level of other docs and then Luft players would complain that "Luft is too weak".
We went with the other option. So Fallsh and Gebirgs start weaker and get stronger with more unlocks - just like AB and RAF. They start with weaker weapons and need to upgrade to stronger stuff - just like AB and RAF. Airstrikes are still strong but Henschels no longer shoot at everything along the flightpath. They still keep their defensive options, they still have their Panther - even if Panthers in general got a nerf but their frontal armor and gun are still as strong as they've always been. They also got the command squad with aura, so with unlocks and the aura they are stronger than before. It just takes longer to get to that point - just like for other docs.

So, we put Luft down from its very above average position to be more in line with other docs. Do we really need to make changes to push it above the line again? Will it be fair to other docs? In this case I don't wonder why idliketoplaybetter asks for counterbalance changes because that would keep Luft in line (or at least closer to the line) rather than push it above the line.
I understand your point, that is true, is a fact, but it is also a fact that after Falls HP got nerfed they came down to Airborne and RAF infantry level but with the difference they don't have a natural FHQ like the glider or airborne FHQ that give those doctrines huge support and make them more front line units, it is also a fact that Achilles can 1 shut a panther and it is no worth to play this doctrine and rush this panther, that is why I am asking for this glider, to make Falls and Girgs more front line and have some support coming from this glider, as you said Falls are not space marines no more.
This glider would be deployed by Luftwaffe officers and would have a cost of a normal FHQ , on-Axis territory will be able to deploy some support units like AT 50mm, Leight, MG, and mortar (after unlocks). If this glider is deployed on enemies' territory only will be able to reinforce and heal in order to help Girbs to stay on the front line longer.

Consti255
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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by Consti255 »

idliketoplaybetter wrote:
02 Jul 2022, 23:13
I am not sure if this is specifically on point and if related, but is it possible to make Doctrines and CP tech tree's alike Tank Support doctrine model more, when we have eventual late game choice to go for Tank hunter brench (jagdpanther and so on) or Tank tree?

For example, to make Luft (and potentially other docs in future) have some sense of that with access for More infantry upgrades and deployable support equipment/weapon crates or better tanks OR work around cheaper emplacement and emphasis on defensive style of the game?

Something like that


It's just, maybe these tradeoffs could be presented somehow else?

It will be simillar to some doctrines conceptually, but not mechanically.

Like, yet we have some CP unlocks on some doctrines (luft in this case) that are not "prioritized" by players, but what if some brenches be more linear and that more risky but stronger/weaker if you see how the match evolves?
Actually cool idea.
Would like this.
Its always super good when i play Panzer Support to be able to respond to a certain playstyle of a enemy player or doc. And also as you say risky (just doc units and not the "basic" CP units should effected by this)
Red wrote:
02 Jul 2022, 13:19
2) Gebirgs as line infantry:
Under this scenario, the glider could only build units when in own territory connected with the base. The Gebirgs would be linked completely to the Hauptsturmführer. I would also propose to then link the Luft Pioneers completely to the Hauptsturmführer as well, and change them from Para-reinforcement to cheaper "regular" reinforcement.
I would like this approch, and rename the Hauptsturmführer into Offizier der Luftwaffe, so people dont bitch about it. It would make sense in terms of the defensive role of the Gebirgs + Pio Combi.
Nerf Mencius

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MarKr
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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by MarKr »

MEFISTO wrote:
03 Jul 2022, 01:40
but it is also a fact that after Falls HP got nerfed they came down to Airborne and RAF infantry level but with the difference they don't have a natural FHQ like the glider or airborne FHQ that give those doctrines huge support and make them more front line units
They can retreat to the command squad. The squad can provide healing for free, can call in paradrop sniper, can call in smoke barrage to allow advancing without getting suppressed, provides aura bonuses and also extra bonuses through the "Heroic attack" ability and calls in a bombing strike (at Vet4 but still). This is a lot more than what the AB or Commandos command squads have.
MEFISTO wrote:
03 Jul 2022, 01:40
it is also a fact that Achilles can 1 shut a panther and it is no worth to play this doctrine and rush this panther
In this game, technically anything can 1 shot almost anything. But the chance of Achilles to penetrate Panther frontally from camo is 59% at max range. 47.2% at max range without camo. Panther 1 shots Achilles every time it hits. You now also have the "reveal area" ability on Kettens so you can spot the Achilles. Panthers need more support and especially make sure that you limit side shots against them to minimum but they are still way better tanks than Panzer IVs.
And yes, you shouldn't rush Panthers and hope that they will win the game for you, but as a supporting unit for your infantry, they are still very good.
MEFISTO wrote:
03 Jul 2022, 01:40
This glider would be deployed by Luftwaffe officers and would have a cost of a normal FHQ , on-Axis territory will be able to deploy some support units like AT 50mm, Leight, MG, and mortar (after unlocks). If this glider is deployed on enemies' territory only will be able to reinforce and heal in order to help Girbs to stay on the front line longer.
And here are the things that would require some counter balance. I presume that the LeiG, MG, Mortar and 50mm gun would come with crews, right? Normally, dropping the MG/Mortar thing costs 50 ammo + you crew the gun and then reinforce the squad so it also costs around 100 MP (based on what squad you use to crew the guns). Normal MG/mortar teams cost no ammo, so by doing this, Luft is saving 50 ammo, or technically 25 ammo on each mortar/MG they get this way. LeiG costs 100 ammo, so that is another 100 saved for each LeiG you get. So, you save crapload of ammo on these support weapons, the ammo can be used on guns for Falls/Gebirgs and so you'll get very strong infantry, equipped to the max with the strongest infantry weapons in the game and still supported by MG/Mortar/LeiG fire. For RAF/AB we can at least say that their weapon upgrades are not as strong as Luft, but for Luft this has a huge potential for sliding to the OP region again.

Managing ammo and deciding what to spend it on is intentional for Luft. So what would be the counter balance? Should the support weapons from glider cost ammo? Should the glider cost a big chunk of ammo to call in and support weapons cost just MP? Should it be something different? I really think that "Let's give them the glider with these units and it will be fine" will end up in a balance problem.
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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by Consti255 »

Would be fine for me, if the Glider costs ammo + fuel to call in.
Nerf Mencius

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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

Have no strong opinion regarding the suggestion of adding a Glider for Luft, so i won't be commenting on that.

However, i just wanted to say;
MarKr wrote:
03 Jul 2022, 13:06
For RAF/AB we can at least say that their weapon upgrades are not as strong as Luft, but for Luft this has a huge potential for sliding to the OP region again.
To be honest, AB 101st with Thompsons is extremely powerful as they are cheap, early available & can upgrade them anywhere. 101st combined by 82nd is just too strong later with 6 durable AB inf squads (in addition to the HQ unit) supported by Shermans & Hellcats.. that's really all u need to win as AB doc, that's why i think it's currently the best Air doc in the game hands down (cuz u also have supply drops) and not many people realise it.

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Re: Luftwaffe Glider

Post by MEFISTO »

MarKr wrote:
03 Jul 2022, 13:06
MEFISTO wrote:
03 Jul 2022, 01:40
but it is also a fact that after Falls HP got nerfed they came down to Airborne and RAF infantry level but with the difference they don't have a natural FHQ like the glider or airborne FHQ that give those doctrines huge support and make them more front line units
They can retreat to the command squad. The squad can provide healing for free, can call in paradrop sniper, can call in smoke barrage to allow advancing without getting suppressed, provides aura bonuses and also extra bonuses through the "Heroic attack" ability and calls in a bombing strike (at Vet4 but still). This is a lot more than what the AB or Commandos command squads have.
MEFISTO wrote:
03 Jul 2022, 01:40
it is also a fact that Achilles can 1 shut a panther and it is no worth to play this doctrine and rush this panther
In this game, technically anything can 1 shot almost anything. But the chance of Achilles to penetrate Panther frontally from camo is 59% at max range. 47.2% at max range without camo. Panther 1 shots Achilles every time it hits. You now also have the "reveal area" ability on Kettens so you can spot the Achilles. Panthers need more support and especially make sure that you limit side shots against them to minimum but they are still way better tanks than Panzer IVs.
And yes, you shouldn't rush Panthers and hope that they will win the game for you, but as a supporting unit for your infantry, they are still very good.
MEFISTO wrote:
03 Jul 2022, 01:40
This glider would be deployed by Luftwaffe officers and would have a cost of a normal FHQ , on-Axis territory will be able to deploy some support units like AT 50mm, Leight, MG, and mortar (after unlocks). If this glider is deployed on enemies' territory only will be able to reinforce and heal in order to help Girbs to stay on the front line longer.
And here are the things that would require some counter balance. I presume that the LeiG, MG, Mortar and 50mm gun would come with crews, right? Normally, dropping the MG/Mortar thing costs 50 ammo + you crew the gun and then reinforce the squad so it also costs around 100 MP (based on what squad you use to crew the guns). Normal MG/mortar teams cost no ammo, so by doing this, Luft is saving 50 ammo, or technically 25 ammo on each mortar/MG they get this way. LeiG costs 100 ammo, so that is another 100 saved for each LeiG you get. So, you save crapload of ammo on these support weapons, the ammo can be used on guns for Falls/Gebirgs and so you'll get very strong infantry, equipped to the max with the strongest infantry weapons in the game and still supported by MG/Mortar/LeiG fire. For RAF/AB we can at least say that their weapon upgrades are not as strong as Luft, but for Luft this has a huge potential for sliding to the OP region again.

Managing ammo and deciding what to spend it on is intentional for Luft. So what would be the counter balance? Should the support weapons from glider cost ammo? Should the glider cost a big chunk of ammo to call in and support weapons cost just MP? Should it be something different? I really think that "Let's give them the glider with these units and it will be fine" will end up in a balance problem.
I would like to ask you how much ammunition cost to drop airborne AT, 81mm mortar, biker LMG? They are saving tons on ammunition plus they can also have ammunition drop packages. I am ok with all this, I really like airborne the way its design and how it works and performs. But I really think luftwaffe needs a FHQ to work with Girbs and give some weapons support. You guys can work on how to implement it and how balance it, but I don’t see no body complaining about RAF gliders or Airborne FHQ. I don’t mind if instead a glider you can give this abilities to Luftwaffe officer, but keep in mind that luftwaffe drains ammunition, 100 ammunition for a Leigh 18 is ridiculous when you have to upgrade all units and use Airstrikes all these with no air drop supply like airborne.

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