SE Beta changes

[Consti255]

I spend some time testing arround in the new beta against my brother.

Overall i like the changes to SE made and especially PE, its a step in he right direction!
But there are 2 things that bother me with the updated SE.

Oberver HT unlock:
the observer HT is usefull when unlocked later on, since you can VT with hummels and can get vision.
The big problem is, why does it get unlocked first? You spend 2 CP for a units, which is straight worse than a Kettenkrad since it cannot camo and cannot lay mines. The VT gets unlocked after the first Hummel enters the field.
i think there are possible ways to make it usefull:

1.
give it a offmap 81mm call in strike

2.
give it passive camo when it enters into bino mode + additional view range over a Kettenkrad.

3.
Swap unlock places with the Hotchkiss Rockets.


Firestorm:
Even tho it was an outspoken bug that double the ammunt of Flame rounds were hitting the ground, now its absolutely trash, like literally griefing spending 200ammo in the most ammo hungry doc on such an ability.
You get 8 rockets (correct me if i am wrong), in a wide AoE with flares and wapping 200ammo ? Thats nuts.
Either it should get a drastic price reduction or its old flame rocket counts back.

[Warhawks97]

guys, for real, can we just get rid of these "magic spell orbital bombardment" rockets falling from the sky?

Remove firestorm, no one needs it when its not bugged, and when its bugged its stupid.
SE will do fine without.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Against the removal of Firestorm or what you call "orbital bomardments" as such.
Also, quite annoyed Sector Arty got removed.. like, why? it was only used in friendly territories & was quite unique for SE doc... i would request to bring it back but with reduced duration and decreased cost.

I understand how there were complaints about 2 early off-maps in SE doc.. but the request wasn't to remove them! What happened is; now Firestorm is complete trash.. and Sector Arty is gone, that's an extreme way to approach the matter.

Not to mention that it was requested to set an alarm for such abilities (whether it be a sound or red flares) OR to nerf them with wider spread & delay between the rockets... However, certainly not BOTH nerfs applied at once.
The red flare of 3 seconds is already a big nerf.. so i think the ability values should be reverted, as dense as it was.. same for the 280mm rockets.

Furthermore;
No one complained that Long Tom & 150mm off-map were OP, actually the compliant was that both of these were doing little damage to tanks (& Long Tom costed 250 whereas the Def 150mm costed 200) so now after adding the red flares, i suggest increasing their damage output by a large margin.. nothing should escape these strikes, and both set to 250 ammo accordingly.

Rest of the changes feel nice, but still more testing need to be done.

P.S agreed with Consti on observation truck.

[Viper]

yes. red flare is big nerf to any offmap. no need to make any strike weaker if we already add red flares alarm to them.................


1 idea about sector artillery:
firestorm deleted from the doctrine tree and replaced by sector artillery again.
firestorm will be available to haupt officer when sector artillery is unlocked. still with red flares. but with no rocket nerf.

[Redgaarden]

I'm just happy that I can play SE exactly how I like to play them and everyone else has to play like me now.

SE will do fine without.

Agree

Oberver HT unlock:
1.
give it a offmap 81mm call in strike

2.
give it passive camo when it enters into bino mode + additional view range over a Kettenkrad.

3.
Swap unlock places with the Hotchkiss Rockets.

1:Dont think we want more 81mm strikes. Those things are quite strong and serve the same purpose of firestorm. Dont think we nerfed firestorm just to get more orbital bombardment abilities.

2: Dont know if it should get camo because it reveals stealth in a huge radius. It would have to lose some of its detection ability then.
And then you have a ketten that costs fuel and has some abilities. Otherwise you could park this thing in a crater and it would spot other spotters before it got spotted itself which is very strong.

3:I dont see how swapping places with hotchkiss is a buff to it. right now it leads down a useful line.

As it is now it can stay on the frontline as the tankiest spotter in the game with the biggest reveal range. And i'm pretty sure it gets more view range over ketten.

Edit: Didn't see hotchkiss is in same line as Obs HT. I would rather have the HT over the Hotch.

[Krieger Blitzer]

guys, for real, can we just get rid of these "magic spell orbital bombardment" rockets falling from the sky?

Remove firestorm, no one needs it when its not bugged, and when its bugged its stupid.
SE will do fine without.

The "magic rockets falling from the sky" isn't an argument.. otherwise, following this logic.. so called "magic big shells" falling from the sky (aka Long-Tom and pretty much any other off-map in the game) would be also nonsense.

Such off-map abilities are essential part of the game, thus i'm against removing them.
Adding red flares of 3 seconds or even 5 seconds without nerfing the off-maps themselves would be already more then sufficient.
This way the player can see the arty incoming and has enough time to react/dodge them.. yet, the abilities themselves would still maintain their strength.. and not super weak as of now.

[MEFISTO]

guys, for real, can we just get rid of these "magic spell orbital bombardment" rockets falling from the sky?

Remove firestorm, no one needs it when its not bugged, and when its bugged its stupid.
SE will do fine without.

The "magic rockets falling from the sky" isn't an argument.. otherwise, following this logic.. so called "magic big shells" falling from the sky (aka Long-Tom and pretty much any other off-map in the game) would be also nonsense.

Such off-map abilities are essential part of the game, thus i'm against removing them.
Adding red flares of 3 seconds or even 5 seconds without nerfing the off-maps themselves would be already more then sufficient.
This way the player can see the arty incoming and has enough time to react/dodge them.. yet, the abilities themselves would still maintain their strength.. and not super weak as of now.

+1 agree.
Just keep in mind any time a BIG NERF is made to a doctrine, it will directly affect some players that fell in love with some of these doctrines, (fun, play style, etc...) traducing this frustration into players leaving the mod, also keep in mind not all players in the community are "pro" and just play 1 or 2 doctrines for fun.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I'm quite baffled how Firestorm got the same nerf as 280mm off-map...
I mean, for such a long delay between rockets & red flares.. 280mm rockets would still hit hard at least, but Firestorm can hardly score the same.

Unless a sufficient price reduction is planned ? Let's see.

[MarKr]

Firestorm is for area denial and can burn out defenses in an area. We said that we didn't want these offmaps to be a 1-click counters to the strongest units that your opponent has and if a firestorm rocket lands near a squad, they die pretty much instantly. So just as 150mm, 280mm and Longtoms are no longer the tool to quickly take out a full HP KT/SP, the Firestorm is no longer to a tool to wipe opponent's elite squads.

If you really need to hit something hard, use your Hummels.

The observation HT has 70 basic vision and 110 with active binoculars (which is more than Ketten - that is the biggest spotting radius of all units in the game. If it had camo (even if just passive) all you need is to get it somewhere near the middle of the map and you'll have vision almost everywhere. With the vision range, you should be able to move it from any danger before the danger gets close enough.

It also detects and hidden units in radius of 45 and mines in radius of 15 (also more than Ketten).

Since it does the same things as in the last update but it costs CPs now, we could give it the ability to lay mines or something, but I'm not convinced it is needed.

[Krieger Blitzer]

i guarantee Firestorm was never good enough to take out elite inf units.. most certainly not.
The rockets don't act as 150mm rockets.. it was best used vs naked AT guns, but now with red flare and delay between rockets.. the Firestorm would have hard times even killing a 17pdr. Thus, in my opinion 200 ammo is no longer justified.


Firestorm is a lot weaker than inf doc 105mm off-map, yet the inf doc 105 off-map received no nerf at all.. not even red flares.


Also, Long Tom & Def 150mm off-map can not take out a full HP anything.. that's the problem.
Now that they have red flares, their AoE should be buffed.

[Warhawks97]

i guarantee Firestorm was never good enough to take out elite inf units.. most certainly not.
The rockets don't act as 150mm rockets.. it was best used vs naked AT guns, but now with red flare and delay between rockets.. the Firestorm would have hard times even killing a 17pdr. Thus, in my opinion 200 ammo is no longer justified.


Firestorm is a lot weaker than inf doc 105mm off-map, yet the inf doc 105 off-map received no nerf at all.. not even red flares.

Firestorm was brutally strong. I saw it whipping an entire area with all units in it instantly. It also destroyed average houses really quick. At maps like valkensward the ability proved to be super cost effective.

Also, Long Tom & Def 150mm off-map can not take out a full HP anything.. that's the problem.
Now that they have red flares, their AoE should be buffed.

Remove flares. There was no reason to have them back in the game like in vcoh. Get rid of flares asap.

[Consti255]

Was just an idea.
Honestly I dont care much for Sector arty or firestorm.
Both were as Markr, Red and Hawks said just stupid 1 click i kill butoons.
Borig to use, boring to play against.

But still it think the observer HT should be looked at a little bit.
Its a 2 CP unit which is basicly the same as before the patch. For me it is just a placeholder.
Hawks made a interessting suggestion for it, that i could get the sector arty ability. Maybe worth some thought, but i would still be fine if sector arty stays removed.

and why get rid of the flares?
This was a change which just changed the idea of the ability. Use it on static targets period.
All i could see would be either some smaller AoEs (for the 150mm and Long Tom) or a small cost reduction from 250 to 200mm.

[Warhawks97]

Was just an idea.
Honestly I dont care much for Sector arty or firestorm.
Both were as Markr, Red and Hawks said just stupid 1 click i kill butoons.
Borig to use, boring to play against.

yes.

But still it think the observer HT should be looked at a little bit.
Its a 2 CP unit which is basicly the same as before the patch. For me it is just a placeholder.
Hawks made a interessting suggestion for it, that i could get the sector arty ability. Maybe worth some thought, but i would still be fine if sector arty stays removed.

That would make sense in a way that the HT is trying to correct the fire.

So a few thoughts here:

1. After activation the first shell would arrive 5-10 seconds later and you can hear it like you do with all arty basically.
2. The scatter is a bit increased but at the same time its always two shells that are directed against a target
3. The cooldown bewteen such a double shot on a target is 10-15 seconds.
4. Ability lasts max 60 seconds
5. At best you can thus fire 4x2 or 5x2 shells against 4 or 5 targets, thats it.
6. It is an ability used by the Halftrack, not a global one.
7. When the HT is forced to move away or gets destroyed, the ability ends. So there is some counterplay against the unit.

and why get rid of the flares?
This was a change which just changed the idea of the ability. Use it on static targets period.
All i could see would be either some smaller AoEs (for the 150mm and Long Tom) or a small cost reduction from 250 to 200mm.

No matter what, we dont need flares. Its one of the best improvments over vcoh. You get a warning when you listen to your soldiers and the sound of the shells or the "deep drum sounds" in the distance. There are countless warnings for long tom and def doc 150 mm arty. We dont need these retared flares.


There was essentially one broken off-map and that was the 280 mm rocket orbital strike. But the devs mood are always like "lets smash everything like a madman" without reason or vise versa, lets buff something to a degree that its already stupid. Lets do this because nobody asked for it.

[Walderschmidt]

Honestly, I think the biggest change for those arty call ins is that I would tie them all to a unit. That way there is a little bit of skill and thinking around their use and a way to counter it (like Wehrmacht Officer heavy mortar barrage).

Wald

[Consti255]

!	Message from:

Honestly, I think the biggest change for those arty call ins is that I would tie them all to a unit. That way there is a little bit of skill and thinking around their use and a way to counter it (like Wehrmacht Officer heavy mortar barrage).

Wald

Yea i agree here.

What about some light tanks? They coule really fill that unit spot.
Pumas, Chaffes, Stuarts and Steghounds?

[Walderschmidt]

!	Message from:

Honestly, I think the biggest change for those arty call ins is that I would tie them all to a unit. That way there is a little bit of skill and thinking around their use and a way to counter it (like Wehrmacht Officer heavy mortar barrage).

Wald

Yea i agree here.

What about some light tanks? They coule really fill that unit spot.
Pumas, Chaffes, Stuarts and Steghounds?

I think Scout Cars/Light tanks would work great.

If it’s still too obnoxious, you could make the requirement for them to have tank commanders garrisoned inside.

This would make scout cars useful even in the end game and tether arty bombardments to a killable, counterable unit in the field.

Wald

Wald

[idliketoplaybetter]

From all the inconsistence above, just one question comes to my mind:

You guys want more arty in the game or less ? I thought less, as that was stated as big problem, but now more units should get off-maps "instead".

[MarKr]

I think their point was to remove Longtom, 150mm, 280mm and similar offmaps from the "command panel" and give them to units. That way you would need to get a unit into a certain range from the target instead of activating it anytime anywhere from the panel.

[Consti255]

I think their point was to remove Longtom, 150mm, 280mm and similar offmaps from the "command panel" and give them to units. That way you would need to get a unit into a certain range from the target instead of activating it anytime anywhere from the panel.

Aswell a possible counter to stop certain atillery barrages from happening by simply killing this unit, often more costs in terms of MP and fuel (maybe in exchange for cheaper ammo arty barrages) and aswell a move away from i click i kill and i want it as fast as possible.
Also, as far as i like the flares added, many people seem to dislike them, so you could also remove them again and tie this abilitys to vehicles which are possible to spot.
And at last, a justification for light vehicles/light tanks to give them a certain role in later stages of the game.

[idliketoplaybetter]

Seeing how people play and use units that are already in the game with such functions, it is difficult to say which form eventually be worse as even more pressure comes to a unit that is either overused or underused.

Also, offmap arty has it's trick, - for the most part, you can use it anywhere on the map with or without LOS.
Having unit with said arty ability requires Range of usage.

What I would think will happen, instead of having more agressive games, this will lead to a more safe or suicidal 1push dmg dealing games. Instead of less arty, we will get more arty per visible square.
Another thing barely noticable here, is that these guys are requisting more Vision. Again and again. Scouts are fast and cheap, I want them also to drop arty..

Armored car with mortar shelling ability is a great example.