Brainless Tactics

[MEFISTO]

I want to make some suggestions to improve and balance some doctrines.
Propaganda:
Most of the time players playing propaganda just rush Tiger Ace 1550 mp (NO FUEL NEEDED), no tactic, no gameplay, boring game, just camping and use Nebelwerfer. Sometimes you check the replay and players just pay 75 fuel to upgrade to the Endsieg Phase and that's it.
My recommendation is, to make tiger Ace cost fuel to avoid this brainless play stile tactis. Reduce Tigers fuel cost to 900mp and 155 fuel. In return make Tiger Ace Buildable with a cost of mp 1000mp and fuel cost 170fuel. Also, limit King Tiger to 1 and make it a Call in at no fuel cost and 1900 or 2000mp.
Armor doctrine something similar, make Pershing Ace buildable for a similar price to Tiger Ace and keep Pershing Ace limit to 1.
I would limit Jadtiger also to 1 and reduce its ridiculous price.

About propaganda, I still think this doctrine needs some rework. I feel when playing this doctrine if I don't have any vehicle support for my Volktrum I can't push or assault a position or have a fair fight vs any Allie infantry squad in the game. ( I am not a big fan of Start Craft Voks spam plus the lieutenant can't be giving support to all my Volkstrum on the map at the same time.)

[Krieger Blitzer]

I don't think ACE units should ever be buildable or require fuel.
At earlier stages when Propaganda got reworked, Tiger Ace required 5 CP and at that time it was indeed too early accessable. However, this already got changed.. and now the Tiger Ace costs 7 CP meaning that Churchill Mk7 (which is at 5 CP) is more likely to appear before the Tiger Ace, and i have seen players trying to rush Tiger Ace since then.. but lost the battle miserably as a result (even when they managed to get the ACE) because there is no way you can camp for 7 CP vs good players until you finally get the Tiger Ace, and in case you do.. ur situation would be super bad when it arrives and therefore still lose the game.

Another thing is that there is no way i would agree to reduce Tiger tank prices, because currently the cost is set to a value that is noticeably higher than the cost of Panthers, which means that dropping down the price of Tigers would bring us back to the issue of "Tigers & Panthers cost the same!" Which used to be a problem.

The prices currently are fine as they are in my opinion.. so are the ACE units, except that i suggested Pershing Ace should get ALRS because it costs 12 CP since it's sharing the same unlock as SP, but other than that.. all the ACEs are currently at the right spot.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

It would be great to get rid of the ridiculous anti-climatic volksturm + propaganda concept. Unfortunately, devs don't want to give up this dead end.

As much as I loved some aspects of the BK rework with the new team, ironically it failed to reach its primary goal. Which, if I am not mistaken, was to make docs able to compete against each other better and elevate the outsider docs (RE and TH were meme docs back in the days).

Eventually, we got even less playable docs than we used to have. AB, Propaganda, and Panzer Support are designed very poorly. Though Panzer Support has great potential if the tech tree gets reorganized a bit and PE generally becomes less Sandbags + Scout Car + Camoed Pak 40 puma faction.

It would be so amazing if docs that aren't played much or rely on a single effective meta-strategy could get the same amount of love as Armor doc or the entire British faction did.

Imo it is very fun to play brits, US with Armor and Inf. BUT in general, it's not fun to play the mode in general because Axis gameplay is extremely dull and uncreative. Every doc besides Luft and BK (which I feel are chosen in 70% of the games with the rest of the 4 docs occupying just 30%) is being played the same - dig down and try to attrition the enemy with arty or unbreakable defense, get big tanks and hope they will win.

Their power composition in the doctrines is absolutely terrible, which in return ruins the gameplay for both factions.

An example of decent early power composition is RAF. With 7 points you have a potent Airstrike, 2 Gliders that help a lot for cunning maneuvers and early defense breakthrough and mobile 17p (Achiles) that poses a threat to every Axis tank. On the top of that the 2nd glider even has some extremely useful rather unique units that have a clear purpose: filed gun, SaS jeep and also 75mm arty, which is not annoying like Nebler that one-shots squads all the time and is impossible to dodge, but does it's job of breaking defenses.

Another great example is Armor doc - where just with 5 points you have: tactical arty, unique assault infantry and Sherman mass production.

Basically, besides AB I would say that all Allied docs are very well designed and entertaining to play.

At the same time, every Axis doc besides Luft and BK literally feels like you play without picking a doc for the first 20-25 minutes.

Prop doc 5 points - a bunch of cannon-fodder infantry and Stug - LOL

SE and Panzer Support - super slow, you don' have any sufficient unlockable power composition until the very end of the game most of the time. 2 off-maps for 3 CP, wtf?

Def doc - early arty and bunkers are the only useful things it can offer within 7-8 points.

I think you got the idea - the biggest factor that holds the mod from being very fun to play is poor design of Axis docs.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Not sure about you, but AB doc is HELL LOT OF FUN to play with & against.. i dare to say it's more powerful & versatile than Armor doc.

Propaganda is fun as well with the officer + VolkSturm and then Tigers which fit super perfectly in the doctrine with Propaganda abilities.. Tigers really are fearful and fulfil a fearsome factor in most games as they score many kills when used by Propaganda in particular.

SE with the BeuteShermans, SturmPios & 210 Nebel with Sabotage squad is extremely offensive.. and as soon as Elefant arrives, it becomes extremely dominant.

Panzer Support, 2 different ways you can play this doc.. and both are fun in my opinion. Even the JagdTiger isn't an outsider btw, despite it's huge cost... I have still seen it in various games where it literally pushed the Allied to their limit and eventually led to Axis victory. One other way to play this doc is Schwims spam + early Tiger1 + command Pz4 for 0ff-map arty supported by Heavy Grens.

The current design of all doctrines is perfect to me and absolutely better than ever before.

[Redgaarden]

I just hate tigerphobia. It's so dumb that you lose speed by driving near a tiger.

About propaganda, I still think this doctrine needs some rework. I feel when playing this doctrine if I don't have any vehicle support for my Volktrum I can't push or assault a position or have a fair fight vs any Allie infantry squad in the game.

I have asked for a long time to give these guys some real guns. And not the pioneer rifle they got. Maybe Give them their own rifle that has 30% long range accuracy.

limit King Tiger to 1 and make it a Call in at no fuel cost and 1900 or 2000mp.

Make it a one time call in?

[tarakancheg]

I want to make some suggestions to improve and balance some doctrines.
Propaganda:
Most of the time players playing propaganda just rush Tiger Ace 1550 mp (NO FUEL NEEDED), no tactic, no gameplay, boring game, just camping and use Nebelwerfer.

So you are saying that you lost to an opponent who had wasted 7 CP's and almsot 2K MP on nothing else then tiger ace and managed to get it without being cut off of most res and you being not ready for the most forseeable heavy tank rush in entire game cuz the only other prop unlock that only provides passive benefits is Zeal+IA, and was not ready for it too?

Sometimes you check the replay and players just pay 75 fuel to upgrade to the Endsieg Phase and that's it.

If you played prop more then you would know that prop abilities get upgraded with each phase:

Taken from this topic:viewtopic.php?f=32&t=1771 but ingame description shows each phase upgrade too
Propaganda abilities (Officer):
Basic level:
Effect on enemy squad: accuracy lowered by 5%, shoots 5% slower, easier to hit and suppress by 5%. Lasts 20 seconds.

After the 1st Phase upgrade (in HQ):
Effect on enemy squad: accuracy lowered by 10%, shoots 10% slower, easier to hit and suppress by 10%. Lasts 20 seconds.

After the 2nd Phase upgrade (in HQ):
Effect on enemy squad: accuracy lowered by 20%, shoots 20% slower, easier to hit and suppress by 20%, maximum health lowered by 10%. Lasts 20 seconds.

Propagand "Area" Ability (used from the control pannel, can be used anywhere and affects units in a certain radius):
Basic level:
Effect on enemy squads in area: accuracy lowered by 5%, shoot 5% slower, easier to hit and suppress by 5%. Lasts 30 seconds.

After the 1st Phase upgrade (in HQ):
Effect on enemy squads in area: accuracy lowered by 10%, shoots 10% slower, easier to hit and suppress by 10%. Lasts 30 seconds.

After the 2nd Phase upgrade (in HQ):
Effect on enemy squads in area: accuracy lowered by 15%, shoots 15% slower, easier to hit and suppress by 15%, maximum health lowered by 5%. Effect on enemy vehicles in area: accuracy and reload speed lowered by 5%, moves 10% slower. Lasts 30 seconds.

After the 3rd Phase upgrade (in HQ):
Effect on enemy squads in area: accuracy lowered by 15%, shoots 15% slower, easier to hit and suppress by 15%, maximum health lowered by 5%. Effect on enemy vehicles in area: accuracy and reload speed lowered by 15%, moves 15% slower. Lasts 30 seconds.

Sector Propagand Ability (used from the control pannel, affects units in an entire sector):
Basic level:
Effect on enemy squads in sector: accuracy lowered by 5%, shoot 5% slower, easier to hit and suppress by 5%. Lasts 130 seconds.

After the 1st Phase upgrade (in HQ):
Effect on enemy squads in sector: accuracy lowered by 10%, shoots 10% slower, easier to hit and suppress by 10%. Lasts 130 seconds.

After the 2nd Phase upgrade (in HQ):
Effect on enemy squads in sector: accuracy lowered by 15%, shoots 15% slower, easier to hit and suppress by 15%, maximum health lowered by 5%. Effect on enemy vehicles in sector: accuracy and reload speed lowered by 5%, moves 10% slower. Lasts 130 seconds.

After the 3rd Phase upgrade (in HQ):
Effect on enemy squads in sector: accuracy lowered by 15%, shoots 15% slower, easier to hit and suppress by 15%, maximum health lowered by 5%. Effect on enemy vehicles in sector: accuracy and reload speed lowered by 15%, moves 15% slower. Lasts 30 seconds.

Effects of different Propaganda abilities do NOT stack! This means that applying the Propaganda ability from your Officer on a squad that is already affected by the Sector propaganda will only apply the debuff that was applied first, the second one is ignored.

EDIT by MarKr:
The "spolier" tag doesn't work so I changed it for a quote.

And you know... officer mortar call in.

My recommendation is, to make tiger Ace cost fuel to avoid this brainless play stile tactis. Reduce Tigers fuel cost to 900mp and 155 fuel. In return make Tiger Ace Buildable with a cost of mp 1000mp and fuel cost 170fuel.

Ok. But why? Because

Also, limit King Tiger to 1 and make it a Call in at no fuel cost and 1900 or 2000mp.

You contradict yourself in the next paragraph making the problem worse, after this you will come back here complaining that your opponent rushes KT with 12(?) CP's

Armor doctrine something similar, make Pershing Ace buildable for a similar price to Tiger Ace and keep Pershing Ace limit to 1.
I would limit Jadtiger also to 1 and reduce its ridiculous price.

Again, there is no reason for it imo, especially jagtiger because it needs to be either reworked or removed.

About propaganda, I still think this doctrine needs some rework. I feel when playing this doctrine if I don't have any vehicle support for my Volktrum I can't push or assault a position or have a fair fight vs any Allie infantry squad in the game.

Ever heard of combined arms? A thing that is essential for every doctrine in a game?

I am not a big fan of Start Craft Voks spam plus the lieutenant can't be giving support to all my Volkstrum on the map at the same time.

Vgrens with mg34+zeal+officer aura+debuffs will shred any squad that will try to push them, and if enemy elite rifles are in green cover/building/trench and are heavily outweigh you with their vet then
1)learn how to play with inf
2)just mortar them with the officer lul.
3)prop debuffs are global and some works like sector arty which is just OP on some maps
and you dont have to push with your Vsturm close because they have 2x mp40 because the rest 3-5 men are armed with rifles.

[Warhawks97]

It would be great to get rid of the ridiculous anti-climatic volksturm + propaganda concept. Unfortunately, devs don't want to give up this dead end.

As much as I loved some aspects of the BK rework with the new team, ironically it failed to reach its primary goal. Which, if I am not mistaken, was to make docs able to compete against each other better and elevate the outsider docs (RE and TH were meme docs back in the days).

Eventually, we got even less playable docs than we used to have. AB, Propaganda, and Panzer Support are designed very poorly. Though Panzer Support has great potential if the tech tree gets reorganized a bit and PE generally becomes less Sandbags + Scout Car + Camoed Pak 40 puma faction.

It would be so amazing if docs that aren't played much or rely on a single effective meta-strategy could get the same amount of love as Armor doc or the entire British faction did.

Imo it is very fun to play brits, US with Armor and Inf. BUT in general, it's not fun to play the mode in general because Axis gameplay is extremely dull and uncreative. Every doc besides Luft and BK (which I feel are chosen in 70% of the games with the rest of the 4 docs occupying just 30%) is being played the same - dig down and try to attrition the enemy with arty or unbreakable defense, get big tanks and hope they will win.

Their power composition in the doctrines is absolutely terrible, which in return ruins the gameplay for both factions.

An example of decent early power composition is RAF. With 7 points you have a potent Airstrike, 2 Gliders that help a lot for cunning maneuvers and early defense breakthrough and mobile 17p (Achiles) that poses a threat to every Axis tank. On the top of that the 2nd glider even has some extremely useful rather unique units that have a clear purpose: filed gun, SaS jeep and also 75mm arty, which is not annoying like Nebler that one-shots squads all the time and is impossible to dodge, but does it's job of breaking defenses.

Another great example is Armor doc - where just with 5 points you have: tactical arty, unique assault infantry and Sherman mass production.

Basically, besides AB I would say that all Allied docs are very well designed and entertaining to play.

At the same time, every Axis doc besides Luft and BK literally feels like you play without picking a doc for the first 20-25 minutes.

Prop doc 5 points - a bunch of cannon-fodder infantry and Stug - LOL

SE and Panzer Support - super slow, you don' have any sufficient unlockable power composition until the very end of the game most of the time. 2 off-maps for 3 CP, wtf?

Def doc - early arty and bunkers are the only useful things it can offer within 7-8 points.

I think you got the idea - the biggest factor that holds the mod from being very fun to play is poor design of Axis docs.

Very well said. Sadly I doubt that things will improve.
Right now I feel like only BK doc is enjoyable on axis side. TS doc is the only other with interesting creative features which would be a good idea as faction design l.

Everything else is no fun at all and full of stupid stuff and gameplay. Right now I play axis more often in vcoh than in BK.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Not sure about you, but AB doc is HELL LOT OF FUN to play with & against.. i dare to say it's more powerful & versatile than Armor doc.

Idk what you base your statement on. When 2 AA locks the sky the entire AB doc is just cannon fodder. Weak inf that doesn't have anything special besides satchels, speaking about the 101s, 82nd are cool. I played dozens of games against AB in 2021, it was a stomp every time even against the best players, unless they got an upper hand in the beginning with basic units + a couple of strafe runs wiped out the squads.

Propaganda is fun as well with the officer + VolkSturm and then Tigers which fit super perfectly in the doctrine with Propaganda abilities.. Tigers really are fearful and fulfil a fearsome factor in most games as they score many kills when used by Propaganda in particular.

Everything has already been mentioned on the forum. The doc needs a BUNCH of CP to get the ball rolling. Propaganda abilities including TigerPhobia are retarded and seem like they came from a different game. The concept of having a super expensive tank that requires 90% of the attention in order not to be killed by offmap/arty/ambush combined with a bunch of squishy squads that are arguably the most micro-heavy units in-game is EXTREMELY poor.

SE with the BeuteShermans, SturmPios & 210 Nebel with Sabotage squad is extremely offensive.. and as soon as Elefant arrives, it becomes extremely dominant.

What you mentioned is basically 60% of the doc unlocks. I claim the situation to be problematic exactly because most Axis docs require an enormous amount of CP to start being effective and fun. This is the reason why 90% of Axis players simply camp for the first 30 minutes.

Panzer Support, 2 different ways you can play this doc.. and both are fun in my opinion. Even the JagdTiger isn't an outsider btw, despite its huge cost... I have still seen it in various games where it literally pushed the Allied to their limit and eventually led to Axis victory. One other way to play this doc is Schwims spam + early Tiger1 + command Pz4 for 0ff-map arty supported by Heavy Grens.

Schwim spam + early Tiger 1 + Command PZ4 + Heavy grens? Hah mate, probably only in BK fun mod. There is no way you stockpile that much res to get all of it in the first 30 mins UNLESS you go full camping mode with classic Scout Car + Grens behind Sandbags + Pak 40 Puma etc.

The current design of all doctrines is perfect to me and absolutely better than ever before.

I had no doubts about it, of course, the biggest tanks lover will be fine with the way it is now.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

It would be great to get rid of the ridiculous anti-climatic volksturm + propaganda concept. Unfortunately, devs don't want to give up this dead end.

As much as I loved some aspects of the BK rework with the new team, ironically it failed to reach its primary goal. Which, if I am not mistaken, was to make docs able to compete against each other better and elevate the outsider docs (RE and TH were meme docs back in the days).

Eventually, we got even less playable docs than we used to have. AB, Propaganda, and Panzer Support are designed very poorly. Though Panzer Support has great potential if the tech tree gets reorganized a bit and PE generally becomes less Sandbags + Scout Car + Camoed Pak 40 puma faction.

It would be so amazing if docs that aren't played much or rely on a single effective meta-strategy could get the same amount of love as Armor doc or the entire British faction did.

Imo it is very fun to play brits, US with Armor and Inf. BUT in general, it's not fun to play the mode in general because Axis gameplay is extremely dull and uncreative. Every doc besides Luft and BK (which I feel are chosen in 70% of the games with the rest of the 4 docs occupying just 30%) is being played the same - dig down and try to attrition the enemy with arty or unbreakable defense, get big tanks and hope they will win.

Their power composition in the doctrines is absolutely terrible, which in return ruins the gameplay for both factions.

An example of decent early power composition is RAF. With 7 points you have a potent Airstrike, 2 Gliders that help a lot for cunning maneuvers and early defense breakthrough and mobile 17p (Achiles) that poses a threat to every Axis tank. On the top of that the 2nd glider even has some extremely useful rather unique units that have a clear purpose: filed gun, SaS jeep and also 75mm arty, which is not annoying like Nebler that one-shots squads all the time and is impossible to dodge, but does it's job of breaking defenses.

Another great example is Armor doc - where just with 5 points you have: tactical arty, unique assault infantry and Sherman mass production.

Basically, besides AB I would say that all Allied docs are very well designed and entertaining to play.

At the same time, every Axis doc besides Luft and BK literally feels like you play without picking a doc for the first 20-25 minutes.

Prop doc 5 points - a bunch of cannon-fodder infantry and Stug - LOL

SE and Panzer Support - super slow, you don' have any sufficient unlockable power composition until the very end of the game most of the time. 2 off-maps for 3 CP, wtf?

Def doc - early arty and bunkers are the only useful things it can offer within 7-8 points.

I think you got the idea - the biggest factor that holds the mod from being very fun to play is poor design of Axis docs.

Very well said. Sadly I doubt that things will improve.
Right now I feel like only BK doc is enjoyable on axis side. TS doc is the only other with interesting creative features which would be a good idea as faction design l.

Everything else is no fun at all and full of stupid stuff and gameplay. Right now I play axis more often in vcoh than in BK.

Yeah, I barely played since the last Autumn, but by the end of my BK journey Blitzkrieg doc became the last and only I played so far. Veted versatile storms + officer team + halftruck backed by Panthers is a hell of a fun. It's so far the only Axis doc that gradually and consistently gains power with the CP. Storms + Stug + Maultier is an extremely solid combo for both, offense and defense, for just 3 CP.

Luft is kinda ok'ish, but with Hordes of Shermans equipped with HE in every game their gameplay is still reduced to the typical axis formula - dig in, try to score some kills with the mortar halftruck + Strafe Run, and go straight for Panther.

Idk, @MarkR and @Kwok, why don't you try to implement some ideas regarding the docs that were brought up here? I definitely saw something very cool addressing TH and SE docs which didn't even imply massive reworks. I saw your main argument for protecting the shitty docs being "some people like it, git gud with the docs" but guys, try to jump in to some PVPs. It is literally BK + Luft most of the time, with the rest of the docs being picked occasionally sticking to the same defensive formula. And it's hard to blame Axis players, since it is literally the only way to play, given that you have equally skilled teams.

I can't honestly feel any significant difference when I play against Def, SE, Luft or TH until the late game. There are minor differences, like Luft player dropping reg.5, SE bombing you with the Nebel and TH building a bit more grens, but overall winning plan is always the same for all these docs - MG\Scout car, camoed anti-tank unit, grens behind sandbags. Rush medium tanks and try to win (Luft and TH equally spams PZ4, SE goes for Beaute Panzer). If didn't work dig in even deeper and hope the big tanks will win.

It's super fucking boring in comparison to allied doctrines that offer so much variosity. Like Inf doc is so cool, that it's strategy potential is actually limited to ammo, but not to the doctrine design. You can go for cheap rifles + Shermans combo, or cunning CQB + rangers for brutal inf combat actions with ambushes and booby traps, or be like a support player with arty + emplacements + med. trucks around the front line.

Same for Canadians for example, I adoped 3 different strategies there:

1) Spam Canadian inf with zooks + 2 76mm Sherman Call in, supported by 75mm arty truck. It is almost like a Blitzktrieg doc that can finish the game early by brutal force.

2) Focusing on arty and reconnaissance - get 2-3 25 pounders early, unlock parachute recons and drop all 3 of them on the frontline. Invest early on to reduce ammo upkeep and help your mates to crush early defenses all over the map.

3) Provide a top-notch defense, go for multiple 17-pounders and hide them across the map, build crusaders as AA and Anti-inf, construct some light defenses to draw Axis arty fire and go straight for Priests to provide your mates with the counter-arty capability.

At the same time I can't even find the words to explain how boring the axis docs are. The best proof is actually every single PvP game. I watch the replays of Tiger and Tarakancheg sometimes. Every axis doc besides bk is being played literally the same way.

[MEFISTO]

I want to make some suggestions to improve and balance some doctrines.
Propaganda:
Most of the time players playing propaganda just rush Tiger Ace 1550 mp (NO FUEL NEEDED), no tactic, no gameplay, boring game, just camping and use Nebelwerfer.

So you are saying that you lost to an opponent who had wasted 7 CP's and almsot 2K MP on nothing else then tiger ace and managed to get it without being cut off of most res and you being not ready for the most forseeable heavy tank rush in entire game cuz the only other prop unlock that only provides passive benefits is Zeal+IA, and was not ready for it too?

Sometimes you check the replay and players just pay 75 fuel to upgrade to the Endsieg Phase and that's it.

If you played prop more then you would know that prop abilities get upgraded with each phase:

Spoiler: show

Taken from this topic:viewtopic.php?f=32&t=1771 but ingame description shows each phase upgrade too
Propaganda abilities (Officer):
Basic level:
Effect on enemy squad: accuracy lowered by 5%, shoots 5% slower, easier to hit and suppress by 5%. Lasts 20 seconds.

After the 1st Phase upgrade (in HQ):
Effect on enemy squad: accuracy lowered by 10%, shoots 10% slower, easier to hit and suppress by 10%. Lasts 20 seconds.

After the 2nd Phase upgrade (in HQ):
Effect on enemy squad: accuracy lowered by 20%, shoots 20% slower, easier to hit and suppress by 20%, maximum health lowered by 10%. Lasts 20 seconds.

Propagand "Area" Ability (used from the control pannel, can be used anywhere and affects units in a certain radius):
Basic level:
Effect on enemy squads in area: accuracy lowered by 5%, shoot 5% slower, easier to hit and suppress by 5%. Lasts 30 seconds.

After the 1st Phase upgrade (in HQ):
Effect on enemy squads in area: accuracy lowered by 10%, shoots 10% slower, easier to hit and suppress by 10%. Lasts 30 seconds.

After the 2nd Phase upgrade (in HQ):
Effect on enemy squads in area: accuracy lowered by 15%, shoots 15% slower, easier to hit and suppress by 15%, maximum health lowered by 5%. Effect on enemy vehicles in area: accuracy and reload speed lowered by 5%, moves 10% slower. Lasts 30 seconds.

After the 3rd Phase upgrade (in HQ):
Effect on enemy squads in area: accuracy lowered by 15%, shoots 15% slower, easier to hit and suppress by 15%, maximum health lowered by 5%. Effect on enemy vehicles in area: accuracy and reload speed lowered by 15%, moves 15% slower. Lasts 30 seconds.

Sector Propagand Ability (used from the control pannel, affects units in an entire sector):
Basic level:
Effect on enemy squads in sector: accuracy lowered by 5%, shoot 5% slower, easier to hit and suppress by 5%. Lasts 130 seconds.

After the 1st Phase upgrade (in HQ):
Effect on enemy squads in sector: accuracy lowered by 10%, shoots 10% slower, easier to hit and suppress by 10%. Lasts 130 seconds.

After the 2nd Phase upgrade (in HQ):
Effect on enemy squads in sector: accuracy lowered by 15%, shoots 15% slower, easier to hit and suppress by 15%, maximum health lowered by 5%. Effect on enemy vehicles in sector: accuracy and reload speed lowered by 5%, moves 10% slower. Lasts 130 seconds.

After the 3rd Phase upgrade (in HQ):
Effect on enemy squads in sector: accuracy lowered by 15%, shoots 15% slower, easier to hit and suppress by 15%, maximum health lowered by 5%. Effect on enemy vehicles in sector: accuracy and reload speed lowered by 15%, moves 15% slower. Lasts 30 seconds.

Effects of different Propaganda abilities do NOT stack! This means that applying the Propaganda ability from your Officer on a squad that is already affected by the Sector propaganda will only apply the debuff that was applied first, the second one is ignored.

And you know... officer mortar call in.

My recommendation is, to make tiger Ace cost fuel to avoid this brainless play stile tactis. Reduce Tigers fuel cost to 900mp and 155 fuel. In return make Tiger Ace Buildable with a cost of mp 1000mp and fuel cost 170fuel.

Ok. But why? Because

Also, limit King Tiger to 1 and make it a Call in at no fuel cost and 1900 or 2000mp.

You contradict yourself in the next paragraph making the problem worse, after this you will come back here complaining that your opponent rushes KT with 12(?) CP's

Armor doctrine something similar, make Pershing Ace buildable for a similar price to Tiger Ace and keep Pershing Ace limit to 1.
I would limit Jadtiger also to 1 and reduce its ridiculous price.

Again, there is no reason for it imo, especially jagtiger because it needs to be either reworked or removed.

About propaganda, I still think this doctrine needs some rework. I feel when playing this doctrine if I don't have any vehicle support for my Volktrum I can't push or assault a position or have a fair fight vs any Allie infantry squad in the game.

Ever heard of combined arms? A thing that is essential for every doctrine in a game?

I am not a big fan of Start Craft Voks spam plus the lieutenant can't be giving support to all my Volkstrum on the map at the same time.

Vgrens with mg34+zeal+officer aura+debuffs will shred any squad that will try to push them, and if enemy elite rifles are in green cover/building/trench and are heavily outweigh you with their vet then
1)learn how to play with inf
2)just mortar them with the officer lul.
3)prop debuffs are global and some works like sector arty which is just OP on some maps
and you dont have to push with your Vsturm close because they have 2x mp40 because the rest 3-5 men are armed with rifles.

It was a 3v3, we won the game the enemy team just limit to camp and use artillery, I only see 1 PIV F from my opponent (sad) and bored. I made spam of 76mm and finally wen I broker through BUM Tiger Ace in my face, then play to retreat and fill up my side of the map with AT mines until I had my Pershing and if you ask for flank no way map was full of crap like 88 flak ( I was using my Sherman 105 to clean all that crap until Tiger ace appeared and had to retreat.
The sad part is if you try to play different going through mid game and no rushing heavy tanks you can get screwed by the enemies rushing heavy tanks

[MarKr]

Idk, @MarkR and @Kwok, why don't you try to implement some ideas regarding the docs that were brought up here? I definitely saw something very cool addressing TH and SE docs which didn't even imply massive reworks. I saw your main argument for protecting the shitty docs being "some people like it, git gud with the docs" but guys, try to jump in to some PVPs. It is literally BK + Luft most of the time, with the rest of the docs being picked occasionally sticking to the same defensive formula. And it's hard to blame Axis players, since it is literally the only way to play, given that you have equally skilled teams.

I find it amusing that when you talk on this topic, you always list all the positives about the doctrines you like (leaving out the negatives completely), and then go straight to listing all the negatives about the docs you dislike (leaving out the positives completely).

People also often misinterpret what we said. Like here where you said that the primary goal of the reworks was "to make docs able to compete against each other better" and then you said it failed. We said we wanted to do the rework so that there aren't doctrines that directly counter other doctrines and part of that was that the direct counters were changed into more general-focused rather than extremely specialised. We did that and from the large part achieved that. We probably didn't achieve it in the way you wanted, but that doesn't mean the goal failed.
We never said that all doctrines will be equally easy to play, all doctrines will have similar units available at the same time, nor that all doctrines will have their peak strength at the same game stage. Some doctrines are more micro-heavy with a good payoff if you can pull the micro, some are less micro dependant but don't offer that much edge. Some doctrines have their peak strength in late game, some around mid game. Part of the game is knowing what the strengths and weaknesess of each doctrine are, when their peak strength kicks in and use that to your advantage.
The doctrines are not designed to be all played the same way, the problem is that people often find one doctrine that they like playing (because it fits their play style and so it gives them the best results - at this point BK and Luft docs on Axis side) and then play other doctrines in the same way and when it doesn't work, they complain that the doctrines are badly designed, weak, boring retarded or whatnot.

I cannot help it but your criticism, as well as Warhawk's, really isn't about "it doesn't work the way it is" but it is only about "it doesn't work the way I want". There are people here who tell you "I think (some doctrine you criticise) is OK because I do (some explanation of how they use it)". To which you two usually reply with something that can be summed up as "lol, that's not my experience so you're wrong and I'm right". OK, so even if you don't see it the same way as the other person, you literally dismiss their opinion/experience with "I don't see it that way" and keep presenting your point of view as if that was some objective, superior truth. Sure, what they say is just their personal opinion based on personal experience but even in that case it is one opinion vs another one and so, what makes yours more valid than theirs? And don't even try to come up with "I know (whatever number) players that think exactly the same thing as me!"

On top of that: Even IF we change things the way you ask for, I can 100% guarantee that there will be people dissatisfied with those changes. Yes, you would no longer complain (hopefully) but there will be another wave of complaints from the other side. At that point you would be able to say "I don't care, I have what I wanted" but it doesn't solve the "problem", it only moves it to the opposite side of the table.

So yes, we are reluctant to make changes that are based mainly on personal preferences of a few people.

[Consti255]

On top of that: Even IF we change things the way you ask for, I can 100% guarantee that there will be people dissatisfied with those changes. Yes, you would no longer complain (hopefully) but there will be another wave of complaints from the other side. At that point you would be able to say "I don't care, I have what I wanted" but it doesn't solve the "problem", it only moves it to the opposite side of the table.

@Tigar

He is the best example for such behavior. He likes the meta, so he does the exact thing. "i dont care, i like it".

And while i DO support many ideas of Hawks or even Sukin (actually i think it is really true that axis is just camp heavy and not engageing for my part),
i think many things will just shift but not solved.
It is really hard to get a middle ground in such an old game + community.
From what i can say, it is still the best way to make most players happy with doc design. And while Markr says that docs are different (where i also agree) Axis playstyle is most just camp into heavy cats. I little mix up could do good honestly.
I mean we have a WHOLE doc just arround defensive playstyle (Def). While we have a doc full around offensive (Blitz). Buit these are the extreme and they should stay like that. My main concern arent these docs, my main concer are the PE docs and PE in general, when it comes faction desig and core unit abilitys.

I think the best soultion would be a set apart PE and in its overall playstyle among the docs.
PE is like super heavy restricted to defensive gamestyle, just in its cores. I have no problem with defensive playstyle, since it also can be pretty cool to "camp" offensive and other stuff. But if you want to do that, why not just play def doc or RE ?
That the one thing i really agree with Hawks and also Sukin, PE is just a leftover in its core (except TS doc as doctrine) from compstomps. If you look at all these units and infantry build abilitys. Best example, assault grens. They are even called assault grens, why for god sake are they able to build free trenches ?

[Warhawks97]

We never said that all doctrines will be equally easy to play, all doctrines will have similar units available at the same time, nor that all doctrines will have their peak strength at the same game stage. Some doctrines are more micro-heavy with a good payoff if you can pull the micro, some are less micro dependant but don't offer that much edge. Some doctrines have their peak strength in late game, some around mid game. Part of the game is knowing what the strengths and weaknesess of each doctrine are, when their peak strength kicks in and use that to your advantage.
The doctrines are not designed to be all played the same way, the problem is that people often find one doctrine that they like playing (because it fits their play style and so it gives them the best results - at this point BK and Luft docs on Axis side) and then play other doctrines in the same way and when it doesn't work, they complain that the doctrines are badly designed, weak, boring retarded or whatnot.

I can't honestly feel any significant difference when I play against Def, SE, Luft or TH until the late game. Overall winning plan is always the same for all these docs - MG\Scout car, camoed anti-tank unit, grens behind sandbags. Rush medium tanks and try to win (Luft and TH equally spams PZ4, SE goes for Beaute Panzer). If didn't work dig in even deeper and hope the big tanks will win.

PE is generally Sandbags + Scout Car + Camoed Pak 40 puma faction.
BUT in general, it's not fun to play the mode in general because Axis gameplay is extremely dull and uncreative. Every doc besides Luft and BK (which I feel are chosen in 70% of the games with the rest of the 4 docs occupying just 30%) is being played the same - dig down and try to attrition the enemy with arty or unbreakable defense, get big tanks and hope they will win.
I think you got the idea - the biggest factor that holds the mod from being very fun to play is poor design of Axis docs.

90% of Axis players simply camp for the first 30 minutes.

Markr: "Every doctrine is different that require different skill and tactics and some have their strenght later"
Reality: "in 99% of all games axis just dig in with MG´s, paks, scout cars and sandbags, then get arty asap and rush mediums and if that didnt work, get more arty and bigger tanks"

Yeah markr, i see how doctrines are meant to be "different". 30 mins sit down and arty whatever you can. PE is the worst camper faction of all and even between axis factions there seem to be no real difference unlike on allied side.

I cannot help it but your criticism, as well as Warhawk's, really isn't about "it doesn't work the way it is" but it is only about "it doesn't work the way I want". There are people here who tell you "I think (some doctrine you criticise) is OK because I do (some explanation of how they use it)". To which you two usually reply with something that can be summed up as "lol, that's not my experience so you're wrong and I'm right". OK, so even if you don't see it the same way as the other person, you literally dismiss their opinion/experience with "I don't see it that way" and keep presenting your point of view as if that was some objective, superior truth. Sure, what they say is just their personal opinion based on personal experience but even in that case it is one opinion vs another one and so, what makes yours more valid than theirs? And don't even try to come up with "I know (whatever number) players that think exactly the same thing as me!"

Idk how many times you go online to check games. There is always the same bunch of players. Axis High valley or la fiere or 3 vs 3 bloody gulch. Thats it. And you keep appeasing these dudes by either listening to them all the time in the forum. Most of them can just so controle 2 units at a time while the rest of the units is in camp mode. The games are then called "Only good players" lol. Markr, keep kidding yourself. People who are seeking for some skilled gameplay with various units and combined arms and tactics have switched to other mods or whatever. I cant even count the ammount of players in my steam list i used to play with who just dont want to play anymore and if, then only when i beg them because they are so bored. Also people have to beg me hundred times before i am willing to join a game and in most cases i regret it because i joined some la fiere camper party bullshit game again against the same bullshit players who spread their status quo bullshit everywhere and dont want anything to be changed because they enjoy it so much to ruin everyones day with the same strat sukin described above (or me and tara and consti). And then they call themselves "pros" with their thousands of games played which were all played under the same condition with the same strat.

[MarKr]

They are even called assault grens, why for god sake are they able to build free trenches ?

Idk how many times you go online to check games. There is always the same bunch of players. Axis High valley or la fiere or 3 vs 3 bloody gulch. Thats it. And you keep appeasing these dudes by either listening to them all the time in the forum. Most of them can just so controle 2 units at a time while the rest of the units is in camp mode.
(... the rest of the post...)

1) Isn't that a fault of player choices when it comes to map selection?
2) Why do you play with them if you need to be bEgGeD to even play and you know they play this way?
3) Why don't you get together people from your friend list and play some other maps without this campy style, if you know that it is what you all want?
4)

I cannot help it but your criticism, as well as Warhawk's, really isn't about "it doesn't work the way it is" but it is only about "it doesn't work the way I want".

[Warhawks97]

1) Isn't that a fault of player choices when it comes to map selection?

Yeah, you can always blame the map. Nontheless, as sukin said already, the general layout of axis literally "invites" to play like this. And personally, when i am axis, i am like "ok, accepted" because playing axis in a different way is again difficult due to the way how their docs and esspecially is literally designed to "sit behind sandbags at an open map". Everything else is suicide (except playing as BK or luft doc) since the enemie would simply "outswarm" you with more tactical units. So i highly prefer as axis to play maps where i can cover as much area as possible with my super expepensive, long range "sandbag-proofen" units.

The opposite is the case as US where i try to avoid maps where a single sandbag unit can cover a huge area.

2) Why do you play with them if you need to be bEgGeD to even play and you know they play this way?

Because i have the passion for the game, i like my dudes and to play with them and have the hope to catch this "1%" of games where axis players try to play at least a different strat other than "sandbag+scout car+pak" camp mode.

3) Why don't you get together people from your friend list and play some other maps without this campy style, if you know that it is what you all want?

Having all at the same time online can be difficult, esspecially when going beyond 2 vs 2. And on top of that, due to the way axis docs are designed, you often time have to rely on that start. Otherwise you will never recover from an aggressive early game fail (except you have chosen BK or luft doc). So its kind if "i dont want" but i am not given the tools to do otherwise or having a real choice, esspecially when playing as PE.

4)

I cannot help it but your criticism, as well as Warhawk's, really isn't about "it doesn't work the way it is" but it is only about "it doesn't work the way I want".

If only you would watch the games uploaded or get online to see what players host which kind of game. The frustration among a huge ammount of players is just huge, esspecially among those which really showed-off their skills in unit micro, tactis and ideas.

As i said, i am perhaps the only one left trying to change things who is still arguing with the "stone-heads".

Check the replays on YT and then tell me if you wouldnt be frustrated and bored.

[Consti255]

6d0a3r.jpg

xD

[Krieger Blitzer]

On top of that: Even IF we change things the way you ask for, I can 100% guarantee that there will be people dissatisfied with those changes. Yes, you would no longer complain (hopefully) but there will be another wave of complaints from the other side. At that point you would be able to say "I don't care, I have what I wanted" but it doesn't solve the "problem", it only moves it to the opposite side of the table.

@Tigar

He is the best example for such behavior. He likes the meta, so he does the exact thing. "i dont care, i like it".

That's bananas...

If that's my behaviour then others are no different.

Although i clearly stated my standpoint before, which is pretty much the same of what MarKr just outlined:

if it's really not about balance & just about design.. then i am not ready to keep going in circles again & again for another overhaul (which won't be the last at this rate) just because somebody thinks the game should taste better... Sometimes this "randomness" in doctrines, is actually what makes it fun.. not everything has to be standardized.. not to mention most of the suggestions given only reflect a certain playstyle.

Clearly i am against the changes more because i know that it only leads to a never ending circle.. so i am happy with the current design as long as it's balanced & docs are unique.. to me it's also "fun" but that's subjective as you or others may think differently. However, all in all; my viewpoint (as clarified several times before) is pretty much what MarKr repeated here again.. these suggestions will only lead to more complaints without solving anything, specifically knowing that the motivation behind these ideas are because some players think currently the game is "boring" and so they are just looking for a different taste.. rather than addressing any actual critical balance issue, which there isn't.

So, my response to this.. you find it boring, i don't! It's super subjective to use this as an argument.
It's currently balanced.. and each doc has something special that other doctrines can't provide.
There is no point to re-work anything.

[Consti255]

So, my response to this.. you find it boring, i don't! It's super subjective to use this as an argument.
It's currently balanced.. and each doc has something special that other doctrines can't provide.
There is no point to re-work anything.

That is not Bananas thats is what Makr wrote, and i wrote?
So you basicly just wrote, you like it and i dont like it so please dont touch it.
Nothing wrong with it, i would do the same if it was the opposite.
Honestly, you just wrote the exact same, just in different words?
I even wrote, it wouldve just shifting personal preferences.

The current design of all doctrines is perfect to me and absolutely better than ever before.

I had no doubts about it, of course, the biggest tanks lover will be fine with the way it is now.

its not like i am the only one saying so, but again, its personal preference. And THAT is waht Markr was saying with his post.
If we change it from x to y, the x players want their playstlye back. While if the y players like such change.
So as i said, a middle ground is always the goal and that is what i was trying to say, taking you as an example for the x people and Sukin for an example for the y. While we have the different docs to please all the playstyles.
And thats why i was saying, that PE is overall too similar in his gameplay among ALL the docs.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Again, i said it's subjective to say that the game needs changes because "it's boring" as this is a very subjective type of argument.. because what u find boring, others may find fun... And vice versa.
Otherwise, if the changes were considered based on such arguments.. then complaints will start coming from the other side (which believed it wasn't boring and called for no changes) and therefore we keep going in a never ending circle which solves nothing.. which is the same viewpoint of what MarKr outlined.

There are no critical balance issues addressed.. thus, the re-work suggestions are not justified.

[Warhawks97]

Again, i said it's subjective to say that the game needs changes because "it's boring" as this is a very subjective type of argument.. because what u find boring, others may find fun... And vice versa.

Having 2 entire factions and 6 doctrines just to mirror each other is objectively boring and stupid. If you want heavy defensive gameplay, pick def doc. But dont make an entire faction to be based arround sandbags and defensive gameplay which on top of that gets even supported by its doctrines. As said, we can essentially remove PE and create only "axis" as faction with just one doctrine. Barely anyone would notice any difference i suppose, esspecially those who usually play against axis.

Otherwise, if the changes were considered based on such arguments.. then complaints will start coming from the other side (which believed it wasn't boring and called for no changes) and therefore we keep going in a never ending circle which solves nothing.. which is the same viewpoint of what MarKr outlined.

The only guys who dont find it boring are those who have one successfull strat which they want to play with every faction and doc so that they can say "look, i play all factions and doctrines" while in fact they play just one that only has different names.

There are no critical balance issues addressed.. thus, the re-work suggestions are not justified.

ofc, copy paste is easier to balance as to balance 4 fundamentally factions with 12 fundamentally different doctrines. No doubt about that.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Bk Mod has 6 fixed doctrines for Axis & 6 fixed doctrines for Allied.. unlike other games such as Steel Division which offers the diverse "battle-groups", or CoH2 which offers various "Commanders" per faction instead of doctrines.. or Gates of Hell which offers dynamic customizable setups. Now, after nearly 14 years of Bk Mod development, i think it has become very clear that no matter how many times the doctrines get altered or re-worked.. players will always come to the point where they find the game has suddenly become boring to play after playing out the new doctrines for a couple of months.. and therefore start requesting to modify everything all over again from scratch!

This old game with such a small dev team and vibrant but limited community can not afford this endless circle of re-works\overhauls in my opinion.. and there is no way to get rid of the "doctrine" system or convert it to something like "battle-groups" or whatever. So, actually the players need to accept that the game will have to - one day - reach a fixed state of balance that lives onwards. And in my perspective the current state of balance is exactly where this could really happen. I dare to urge the dev team to "lockdown" the Bk Mod balance updates from now on and focus only on bug fixing in the future when any glitches are found... That's how well i think the current state of balance is... Although you might think it's "boring" but others can also argue that this is the best state we could reach after 14 years of moving units around & changing doctrines upside down nonstop.

[idliketoplaybetter]

The problem with proposed changes is that I don't like them, subjective or not, they will only make the game more passive.

The game is currently played in a boring way, not that mod is boring, Imo. Meta is being changed from time to time, which is rather the best (only) solution.

Pls, don't implement any global changes. I am curious to see "what else" game can be like, but that is crazy.
From your own words, player base consists of arty guys that are stuck on according maps, but the game is fine, just nobody plays it on a proper maps, but when map is good, still someone spams something.., so that is why game has to be changed.

What's gonna change in result? Longer arty matches? Or player drain? Or endless fun?

[Warhawks97]

Bk Mod has 6 fixed doctrines for Axis & 6 fixed doctrines for Allied.. unlike other games such as Steel Division which offers the diverse "battle-groups", or CoH2 which offers various "Commanders" per faction instead of doctrines.. or Gates of Hell which offers dynamic customizable setups. Now, after nearly 14 years of Bk Mod development, i think it has become very clear that no matter how many times the doctrines get altered or re-worked.. players will always come to the point where they find the game has suddenly become boring to play after playing out the new doctrines for a couple of months.. and therefore start requesting to modify everything all over again from scratch!

This old game with such a small dev team and vibrant but limited community can not afford this endless circle of re-works\overhauls in my opinion.. and there is no way to get rid of the "doctrine" system or convert it to something like "battle-groups" or whatever. So, actually the players need to accept that the game will have to - one day - reach a fixed state of balance that lives onwards. And in my perspective the current state of balance is exactly where this could really happen. I dare to urge the dev team to "lockdown" the Bk Mod balance updates from now on and focus only on bug fixing in the future when any glitches are found... That's how well i think the current state of balance is... Although you might think it's "boring" but others can also argue that this is the best state we could reach after 14 years of moving units around & changing doctrines upside down nonstop.

No idea what you mean by "fixed". And we didnt request battlegroups or whatever. We are simply asking why axis gameplay is always the same regardless of doctrines and faction.

And its not "suddenly boring". Its an issue that is as long as BK itself i would say. We have never really gotten to a point where axis doctrines and factions provide a real variety of gameplay and gameplay options. Just digg in, arty your enemie down with attrition and get at some point some sort of a heavy tank or beefy tank that, supported by arty, has to finish the game for you. And except for BK doc there is no axis faction or doctrine that offers a really diversified gameplay, at least not for the first 30 mins.

Esspecially PE never really started off. It never really became a real faction.

[Consti255]

Honestly, PS doc is the only doc that is somehow more engageing to play in the early stages when you unlock the mechanized stuff.
That said, it is still not the optimal way to play it in the meta right now.

[Viper]

axis doctrines are the same?

se doctrine unique from defensive doctrine with sabotage abilities and shermans

luftwaffe is the most unique axis doctrine of course (obvious why)

panzer support has two ways to play so it's unique too

defensive is unique with best fortifications and anti tank mines

blitzkrieg is unique with panthers and stormtroops

propaganda is unique with tigers, stuka truck, sturmtiger and special propaganda abilities


how are they the same