Does SE need changes right now?

[Walderschmidt]

Trying to declutter Warhawks' LEIG thread. Title says it all - do you SE needs any changes at the moment?

I am not sure myself, but Warhawks seems to think so.

Wald

Reminder - the poll doesn't guarantee the devs will or won't change something because of it. It's just to give the devs an idea of player thoughts on the matter.

[Walderschmidt]

Warhawks' thoughts on SE:

No, it's not broken because rushing for arty can also be a significant reason for defeat.. remember Def doc player doesn't have any infilteration tools (CQB for example which can spawn to kill the 105 howitzers) or crawling inf (such as Rangers) that can sneak up & camo, or any potent multi-role tanks for assault.. and no such close combat ready inf units with Thompsons installed for Free, since all Def doc inf require loads of ammo upgrades to be combat ready at last.

yes, i know, like the last 4 vs 4 i had when our enemie with double SE and def doc overused artillery. They had an overkill of artillery on the field but never actually attacked. So we couldnt lose despite the fact that we were out of units many times over. We won because i just mass produced rifle squads to make them expand all their ressources. If only they had one 20 mm car on the field they had won. But they only got artillery.

And if you keep your arty away from houses or put units into them or turn them into HQ there is no way to "simply sneak up" on them. And even if, you lost 450 MP minimum. Your enemie will just recrew the gun and lost perhaps 50 MP. All that "crawling" and "sneaky house spawn" maybe works once but its risky and expands all the ressources of your enemie.

So one way or another, rushing the 105 always pays off. Even if it doesnt whipe whole units, it will still prevent your enemie of planning attacks in the early-mid stage by constantly throwing barrages. And if your enemie decides to counter them, they will always need to spend a lot more CP´s while also taking higher risks. Why does he take higher risks:

1. Trying to sneak on them requires lot of skill, ressources (they cost a lot) and research. And still they take the risk to fail that which results in a huge harm to their war economy. Meanwhile, Def player didnt take any risk. 2 CP´s is not hard to get (build base, OP ammo points and tada, its there) and can tec other branches while the enemie is trying to figure out how to counter it (sneak, counter arty, planes). So the pressure you can put up on your enemie to react to this threat is huge while you didn risk much at all to get it.

2. Trying to get superior arty to counter it takes massive ressources and CP´s away that makes you vulnerable to other threats such as tanks (eg you dont get a M10 for 0 CP).

In short: Getting the 2 CP howitzer always brings you in a favourable position, even if you dont kill a single target with it. Its pure existence so early into the game.
So i would prefer to increase Tec and cost requirments to field such artillery but at the same time giving them more range. So going for them will always be a deep strategic decision. If i remember correctly, this is what devs wanted after the doc reworks. Longer term base strategic decisions on where to spend CP´s on.

Firestorm is actually a joke compared to much cheaper & much more powerful RA doc spotters off-map.
Sector Arty is a pure defensive arty that can be easily avoided as it's used only in friendly territories.
I dare to say SE doc is one of the easiest Axis docs to deter.. since the removal of Wespe from this doc, and every single arty piece SE doc can provide is super hungry in terms of ammo upkeep.. starting from 210mm Nebels, 120mm Mortars, & all the way up to Hotchkiss & Hummels.. each of these consume nothing less than 10 ammo upkeep for most of them.

I am honestly getting a lot bothered by these recent complaints.. it makes me feel that every match u play, there is always something to complain about or lead to a request for complete overhaul on something... Can u tell when was the last time i had this attitude or any other player here? I haven't posted any such topics for quite a long time myself.. that's because i think the game currently is super balanced & fun. So i only stick to bug reports or representing ideas every now & then (such as ALRS for Pershing ACE as an example) but really i don't get how everytime u play, things will be broken to you! No matter what changes would take place...

It is not a joke. Its an offmap that absoloutely forces a retreat and leaves a burning ground for quite some time. Nice against forward HQ´s. In that 4 vs 4 they revealed the forward CW HQ and dropped firestorm on all the inf there. The player just so run away from it just to be hit by the second firestorm from the second player. And from then onward only hotchkiss bombardments.
Also you need to get spotter unlock and the artillery unlock and bring your spotter into position. Firestorm is an off map artillery strike. WH officers offmap is the best counterpart to CW spotter arty,

So far, SE currently is: Get the off maps-> get hotchkiss-> Use cheap Hummel.

Wald

[Walderschmidt]

Consti's thoughts on SE:

I agree with Hawks on the Arty topic.
For SE and Def doc.

I gladly repeat myself aswell as Hawks, 2 CP arty is a absolutely no brainer for such price and low tiering cost. No matter what, if you face def doc, you face early 105mm, thats a fact.
And please, dont come along with the same old argument, PLAY BIGGER MAPs.
First, we lack big maps which are balanced out well ( i dont wanna play rosmalen or lafiere 2v2 over and oaver again), second the majority of players are unwilling to change their map pool. I think ignoring that is a mistake in such a small community, where it is not normal to find games.

I think we went the wrong path with SE overall, since now it is just a copy paste Def straight arty doc, with powerful offmaps and devastating 150mm barages but without emplacements.
In my head, when i am thinking about SE its general purpose should be a mobile and guerilla like defense, with a concentration with ambushes, mines fire and traps.
SE lacks to be SE in general. Its just a PE doc with PE base units and big dick guns, which needs a fuck ton of CP and ammo to even enter the game.
Arty is just way to effective in this game not to go for, so i think just limiting it among ALL docs would be a welcome change. Arty just destroys the shine off many docs and overshadow their fun and unique gameplay styles and units.
Who even uses mines as SE or even goes for the sabotage unit? Noone since you need all the CP for arty or ammo for their salvos.

there is actually nothing in this game what 75mm howitzer cannot take care of speaking of emplacemnts, except bunkers. But bunkers are a whole new topic on their own, because even 105 and even 150mm struggle to put them down. So approaching them is a different story anyway.

What i dont agree with, is the straight nerf to the Leig18. I like it as it is, a mobile 75mm howitzer to give decent fire support to your units.
Heck make it more expensive and add a ammo price on top as the US 75mm , but please dont touch its general numbers and stuff.

Wald

[Krieger Blitzer]

No, the SE doc is fine currently.

[Consti255]

No hate, but how often did you even play SE in the current patches?
I always look your videos and i cannot remember the last time you picked it.

Playing against a doc is WAY different as playing as it. Thats why Axis/Allied mains always have stronger oppinons on ceratin docs, since they dont know how to react or play in certain scenarios. This goes aswell as for balance thoughts and overall thought for a doc, in my opinion.
Thats why i cannot take a feedback into account from a player (even tho he is a vet) that doest play SE regulary.

As i lightly scrachted my thoughts on the current SE in the post Walder marked, i think SE just aimed for a whole wrong direction when it comes to gameplay and overall doctrine design.
Its a doc that relys heavy on arty,grenadiers and tank destroyers...mhhh i wonder which other doc does this?
I think it is overall wasted potential paired with a stupid boring and copy paste gamestyle.
Aswell as Hawks mentioned, 2 heavy offmaps for 3 CP and a ton of ammo is not just boring as a concept, it is also obnoxious to face in teamgames.

As i also wrote, i think a overall more fitting doctrine design for SE would be arround ambushes (tanks and infantry), mines , traps and overall more Grurellia fight style with specilized infantry and tanks. Sure every doc should get access to sort of arty, but right now it is just a straight overload of this in this doc which isnt even necessary.
You dont need 5 different arty pieces that do basicly the same.

[Warhawks97]

As a short term SE solution:

Replace firestorm with Hotchkiss missiles.
Slot of Hotchkiss missiles are being replaced by 105 mm Howitzer.
Hummel cost get increased again. Someone said in a topic that Hummel needs to be cheap because there is no alternative. I agree to some degree, thats why a normal 105 would make its way to it for in total 4 CP.


I also hope that howitzer arty such as the 105 will become more expensive to build and maintain along with a higher range.


On top of that SE needs to get some sort of unlock that enables its Grenadiers to ambush.... something in this direction. But right now SE is just broken. Heavy camping with grens and scout cars and artillery overkill.

[Krieger Blitzer]

No hate, but how often did you even play SE in the current patches?
I always look your videos and i cannot remember the last time you picked it.

Last video where i played SE doc:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wzmeFHid4pQ

10 months ago, so ye.. not that recent, it's v5.2.7 (with re-worked SE doc but Firestorm wasn't there yet).
Observing the video i can see i starved for ammo nearly the entire game just because i had one 210mm Nebel.
And when i got rid of it by killing the crew myself, so that my mate could capture it instead.. ironically, it caused him ammo starvation too as soon as he captured it, and then i had to use Fuel Trade For Ammo so i can just kill the crew again to rescue my team-mate who had 0 ammo income at that point as a result of capturing my 210 Nebel.

it was fun playing with the Elefant nonetheless.. covered by AA along with Schwims spam & BeuteShermans.



However, the last published SE video doesn't mean that this was the last time i played SE doc.
Recently I had a very intense game a couple of weeks ago vs "Idliketoplaybetter" as Armor doc & "FeelsBadMan" as RA doc where i had TRUX as my team-mate, he was Blitz & i was SE doc.. game lasted around an hour & half.

Funnily enough, i did not record it because i thought the game was going to end so quickly anyways due to team imbalance.. but surprisingly we won after a super hard fight. SP was locked by the Elefant and later died by Panther 5% chance 1-shot kill.. so we were super lucky. Despite the Priests kept sniping my Hummels none-stop.. so i gave up building them & again just relied on a single 210mm Nebel.. i was very mad how i did not record that game at the end, and even the replay file doesn't work because it's on a map from the workshop.



All in all, i think both SE & Def docs currently have their strength & weaknesses.. but i think are also balanced with other docs, given that any attempt to make them more fun or versatile would only lead to becoming a mirror of other docs, therefore i disagree with any suggestions such as giving 105 arty to SE and i don't mind the Humnel being this cheap knowing it's late available & consumes huge ammo upkeep... To sum this up; i think both SE & Def docs can't be any better unless we break the balance again or create mirrored docs, thus i call for no changes in this regard.

[CGarr]

Camo for P4s on SE as an alternative to the stupid hetzer would be nice, definitely would help differentiate it from the 4 other Axis docs that have casemate TDs as one of their core units (BK and Prop stugs, PS doc TD line is objectively better in most cases, Def doc is literally entirely casemate TDs). I've proposed it multiple times in the past.

The arty line isn't necessarily my favorite part of the doc, I usually don't get anything beyond the hotchkiss anymore since it's so overkill in most cases. Wouldn't mind it being changed, but didn't suggest any changes to it when I originally proposed revisions to the doc, as I figured people would shit the bed if I did and ignore the rest of my suggestions.

I think more emphasis on snipers would be nice, considering their whole theme is traps and ambushes, maybe bring back the sniper to their 7 man squad? Snipers are definitely effective at baiting even good players into making dumb plays. It'd definitely help in games against CW players who are using more inf, as SE generally has a pretty rough time against them in the early-mid game (coming from someone who mainly played SE for pretty long while after the rework).

[Consti255]

All i see in SE is just a slightly different def doc with more arty options and PE options in the beginning.
SE has many great and unique attempts to set this doc appart from def doc, but after all, you just go for arty since it is the best path you can take.
And aslong this arty tap with offmaps, 150mm and also Hotchkiss rockets exist in this docs, absolutely noone will ever decied to go for mines, boobytraps or other things (which was actually the main purpose of this doctrine back than). I know no realism i get that, but there is no need of such an doc as it is right now in the game aslong def doc exists as it is right now.
We could way better build a more rounded and more CP investing def doc with the units available in SE and also build a doc which actually fits the flare of the name "Verbrannte Erde".
With ambushing SS sqauds, mines, boobys and maybe even new mechanics to hold of the enemy. Build something more arround the mortar bunker or more arround storm pios, sabotage units and maybe even passive unlocks and new abilitys for the tank destroyers ort tanks or Beutepanzer. Like yeez this whole doc concept gives you the most creative room out of all docs in the whole mod. And what do we do? Just make it a super narrow boring arty spam doc which sits behind TDs. Like seriously? We already have that with Def doc and its a reason why it is called DEF doc.

[Krieger Blitzer]

All i see in SE is just a slightly different def doc with more arty options and PE options in the beginning.

This is really untrue in my opinion.
While i might have not played SE doc a lot, yet i have played against it several times.. very unique compared to Def doc thx to Sabotage squad, booby traps & disabling sector points in addition to the BeuteShermans which are much more offensive than Def doc TDs.. in fact, Def doc has superior arty as it's more affordable there. Whereas in SE doc it's often a single arty piece, either 1 early 210mm Nebels, or 1 mid game Hotchkiss, or 1 late Hummel, u can never combine the 3 or even 2 of them unless maybe in a 4v4 match.

Def doc on the other hand has the advantage of 105mm Howitzers, more fortifications & later the Grille but lacking infilteration tools (unlike SE doc Sabotage units) & no offensive tanks such as BeuteShermans or Panzers.

Camo for P4s on SE as an alternative to the stupid hetzer would be nice, definitely would help differentiate it from the 4 other Axis docs that have casemate TDs as one of their core units (BK and Prop stugs, PS doc TD line is objectively better in most cases, Def doc is literally entirely casemate TDs). I've proposed it multiple times in the past.

Pz4 camo seems really off & super weird.

Personally i think both docs are currently unique in their own ways & balanced as everything has a counter.
Suggestions given here would only make it all over the place.

[Consti255]

The funny thing is, that Def doc is even more agressive than SE in the most games.
You have cheaper infantry with cover buffs which overcome enemys pretty hard, you have the access to Leig18, officier offmap, Stubby PZ4 anyway and Jagdpanzer which can function as a normal StuG for example.

SE these days is just getting scout cars asap, lock down ammo sectors, build trenches with heavy grens and set up a Puma or maybe a TD behind. After that just bomb the enemy to hell with your trillion arty options. Its a heavy camp doc, which shouldnt be a heavy camp doc in the first place, we have Def doc for that.

TBH, the Beutepanzer are just memes, the firefly just sucks, on the other hand the 76 is quite useful with its .50 cal.
Yeah they have boobytraps and a sabotage sqaud, but since all your basic units arelocked behind CP, do not dare to go this route in a serious game. Since you will either be steamrolled by tanks, or you get overwhelmed by cheap US inf because you lack CP upgrades for yours and you lack arty. Trust me, i tried it billion times to make the sabotage sqaud work these days, it does not.

You can say a doc is unique with its unlocks and they have clear differences, but damn this doesnt come to play, if you dont unlock them and just go the same same same same path over and over again. Which is basicly the same game strat for both docs.
Arty into TDs. And if you dont do so, pray to god not getting murderd.

IDK why people connect SE with arty spam in the first place. It would be the same if you would give Def doc the acess to KT, its a whole different doctrine.
Thats what i meant with freedom in design, you have SO MUCH. And all we do is poop arty in this doc and think yes THIS IS THE WAY !

The only fitting trees of this doc, are the once getting used nearly never or even never in a serious game in an important game state.
As i said, SE isnt SE in the first place and thats whats bothers me.

[Warhawks97]

SE is the doctrine i have been playing the most over years and probably being the most successfull doc for me among PE docs. But going sabotage and booby traps first usually only worked when you had a good start with map controle. Traps helped to hold it with lower efforts. But that worked out when you played with teammates that supported each other. Being on my own in random team matches SE was for the most part 1-2 inf squads, a hell lot of krads, Medic HT or normal HT for front reinforcments, 50 mm pak and Hetzer. Other than that just arty with a high vet Hummel in the end and res trade.

I always had to make sure to have only a minimum ammount of losses because once you lost a Hetzer or an Inf squad to an unlucky random HE shell it became pretty difficult to make a comeback. So keep losses at a minimum, nonstop bombarding your enemie and slowly build up your own army while your MP income dropps very low.

Today its quite easily to get 1-2 hotchkiss onto the field which often times is enough to bring down any defense or to bring any enemie attack to an rapod hold. After that the beuteshermans come in to smack up the remaining stuff. And its arty is overall weird. The usage cost are cheap, 55 for hotchkiss and 75 for hummel and 210 nebler. But i figured out that hotchkiss consumes ammo even before the rockets are added.

And since the Puma Pak wagen became a thing the Hetzer fell out of use. So today SE became an "instant camp" doc with scout cars locking down sectors and very early Psdkfz 234/4 Puma pak vehicles denying any enemie vehicle use alltogether. So all the CP´s are now getting pumped into artillery rigth away of which this doctrine as overkill capacaties.


I think scorched earth in BK got redefined from "burning the ground while retreating, set traps and make advances as hard as possible" to "burn the entire world with artillery aka soviet style".


It would be nice to get back on a drawing board for SE doctrine using a mix of ambush, traps, emplacments and some surprising and powerfull artillery but not an overkill and overcapacity of it and which is maybe put into different branches instead of one big ass arty branch.


Edit: Just something i coolstantin reminded me and which i tested a few mins ago:
The Hummel costs 6 CP and only 500 MP. No fuel cost or anything and for only 75 ammo per barrage, later 60 Even 105 arty units cost often times more.

To give you an idea:
Inf doc priests cost 580/80 and 50 per barrage and 8 CP and has a 1 unit limit because of fears it might become "too destructive"
RA Priest costs 5 CP but with spotter etc even more to be effective.
Wespe costs also more and a barrage 80 ammo.

On top of this you get a very cheap Observer HT with an observation range larger than that of krad and a long range VT ability that doesnt need any unlock.

So.... For 6 CP you can get 150 mm mobile 500 MP expensive arty that fires for 75 ammo. If you have two, you can even nicely use VT from the 0 CP observation HT for total doomsday conditions. Technically, for in total 225 ammo you can bombard 3 different points on the map with 150 mm arty. With ammo HT 195 ammo.

So in a 4 vs 4 you can essentially destroy the entire enemie defense within righly one minute for less than 200 ammo. I know, doctrinal differences etc, but is it necessary to have that much destructive power with this little ammount of requirments? You only need 10 fuel to build the observation HT. 10 fuel to bring thermonuclear like destruction upon your enemie.

[Consti255]

Not to mention the recent buffs to the Hummel and the observer VT target.

Hummel salvo cost 75 ammo which is really damn cheap atm.
The VT from the observer HT cost 75ammo aswell.

If you combine this with the ammo HT aswell, you pay just 60 ammo per salvo.

Which means basicly when you have 2 Hummels, you can get 4x a 150mm salvo on a target for 195ammo on 3 different locations in rapid firermissions. This is lower than the Long tom costs.

I did it once in a 4v4. After i reach this CP teching, the game was absolutely over, without any counterplay.
I know, its not balanced arround 4v4s, but still this is madness. ( and this is not Sparta)

Its sad what SE has become in terms of gameplay and a camping doc:

[tarakancheg]

IMO Scorched Earth and Def are two most unfun doctrines to play as and against in the current patch.
As a def doc player the only you can push is a Grenadier moon landing with cover bonuses (basically what the maps become at mid game) and SE is just an Offmap abuse (Sector arty is just BS with how long it lasts and firestorm and both instantly hit the target as they are called in). Firefly and 76 sherman are fine as is. While firefly may look bad if you use other tanks to take hits it pens allied heavy tanks reliably and can deal considerable damage to SP with it's pen. So they are fine (especially FF as MK7 counter).

[Warhawks97]

Alright, just wanna show up two ideas for SE doc after having a test match today and brainstorming talk with coolstantin. Current SE doc is just a waste dump that gets everything other docs dont need anymore and having an overkill of off map arty and on map arty at extrem low cost.

So, lets start.

BUT DONT RAGE OUTRIGHT JUST BECAUSE SOME ABILITIES AND UNITS ARE MISSING......IT WAS JUST A QUICK BRAINSTORMING

Changes:

Denial Artillery branch:
1. Observation HT is unlocked first and can call in a light and short arty strike and has huge observation radius. Also has VT ability.

2. 105 unlocked for in total 4 CP. Cost:
- 450 MP build cost
- 50 Fuel build cost
- 275-300 Range. 335 Range with long range ammo
- 13 MP Upkeep
- 2,5 Fuel upkeep (yes, arty should require fuel upkeep, will make a topic why the next days. Ammo upkeep didnt reduce arty at all, it just hampered all other abilities of a doctrine and makes it impossible to properly outfit inf etc which leads to even heavier arty use to compensate for it.)

3. Sector arty is just a dump ability and firestorm as well and both for 3 CP is just braindead. Both have no warning, quick strike and accuracy. Sector arty is brutal because it will hit at least once. No way you can escape from it since it lands immediatly after activiation and due to GPS or laser guidance always on point.

We have several ways to make sector arty better:
A: Sector arty is an ability that obliterates the entire sector, regardless whether there are units or not. So its a several seconds long heavy bombarding of the sector.

B: Sector arty is used by the the observation HT unlocked prior for 1 CP. That way you have to get this unit near the sector before you can use it. It either then works like old sector arty but ends with the destruction of the HT. Or it works like the sector arty described in option A. A second long full bombardment of the sector.

C: My Favorit:: Sector arty is an ability of the 105 arty. Its similiar to RA observation arty just that it does not fire at a certain location when units enter it, but as soon as a enemie unit enters a sector. Arty in Sector arty mode keeps shooting as long as visible targets are in it.

4. Mortar Bunker is final unlock as area denial bunker. Idk if that makes sense. But well, why not.


Assault Demolition Branch:
1. Unlock to boost Assault Pioneers. They can also use abilities for lower cost. Like 35 ammo for Grenade Bundle. Other inf can also use nades for lower cost. Unlock to the right is incendiary weapons.

2. Stuh:
380 MP
50 fuel

3. Hummel:
600 MP
80 fuel
100 ammo per barrage minimum
300 Range, 350 with Rocket Shot (125 Ammo per barrage)
No ammo upkeep
High fuel upkeep of about 4

4. Ammo HT:
drops barrage cost of Hummel to 85 and 110

TD Branch:
1. Marder Mass Production unlock:
- Drops Marder cost to 300 MP

2. Nashorn:
- 450 MP
- 75 Fuel

3. Hetzer:
- 500 HP
- 380 MP
- 50 Fuel

SE Branch:
1. Traps
2. Mines
3. Sabotage
4. Sabo Squad and Ambush unlock:
- Also enables Grenadiers to set up ambushes.




Additional information:
- Beutepanzer Missing. Idk if its good or not

- Panzer IV J available. Really guys, get rid of stupid unlocks of Panzer IV´s, M10´s, Stugs etc.... It just takes away too many slots that should be filled to fill doctrine with usefull unlocks.

- Elephant gone. For real, i have no idea why this unit even exists except for some meme moments.

- Unique unit will be the Sdkfz 234/4 75 mm Pak Puma. It will also have some abilities which idk yet currently. So it will be a mix of a AT/Recon unit. Limit will be 1 unit at a time but can use unique support abilties. Need some help to figure out what would make sense.

- Fuel-ammo trade is gone. Instead Arty on the field requires fuel upkeep. A General change btw, not just SE.

- Hotchkiss missiles: is there any need? I have no idea atm if they are needed at all in this game. Perhaps as reward to Stubby Panzer IV/III like in voch to give PE some non-doc arty.... but idk.

[Consti255]

Looking good so far.

I like the aerial deny arty a lot! looks pretty cool.
I would like the sector arty which gets called in by the HT and than obliterates the whole sector most.

As everbody knows, yes to the Assault Pios from my side. Also good implementation of the fire stuff.
Actually i would simply call it "SS Pioniers", it would be the most fitting and aswell reveals your picked doc. Different names could be also given same as the Def doc heavy pios.

Also, big fan of the fuel upkeep for arty, as mentioned the ammo upkeep just went into a different direction as we thought. The Ammo upkeep just nerfs your infantry and tanks, since arty is vital in many cases, or people choose arty over infantry. So in fact, we even pushed the usage of arty and not reduced it.

Fuel in general is in my books the tiering, upgrade and vehicle ressource, Ammo the ability and weapon ressource and MP the everything ressurce. Giving arty actually flue upkeep, hurts your tiering, vehicle and tank gameplay. Tiering in general should be looked at, since High res games are better balanced but sadly makes you tier like a mad man and skip for the US side instant to the motorpool. But thats a different story overall in a different topic to discuss. Still a big fan of that idea.

Cool idea with the Marder mass production, but i would actually rebuild the TD tree (more to that down)

Things i would look at:

-It would make more sense and overall a better balance if we change the TD tree.
Fast acessable Nashorns wouldnt be to great,especially for allied tank docs. Looking mainly at RE and their MK7.

I would go 1. Marder massproduction 1CP -> Hetzer 2CP -> Nashorn 3CP

- Boobytraps and AT mines could be merged to a 2 CP unlock
- Heavy ammo HT could be reduced to 1 CP

- The given Space from the merge and the 1 CP could be the Beutepanzer unlock after the Hetzer splitting up..

[Redgaarden]

Think the Elephant is fine where it is. People can use Nashorns if they want to. Hummel is very cheap MP wise so I wouldn't mind increasing it up a bit.

Can't say I like the idea of fuel upkeep on arty since I see it as a Huge boost to artillery focused doctrines. A team with no map control doesn't get arty it's as simple as that.

People aren't going to get weapons on their infantry with the extra munitions. They are going to get more arty.
Since the change I have seen atleast one less arty piece per player. Gone are the days where you could sit on 4 different arty pieces and bomb anything and everything.

Fuel upkeep on arty doctrines that usually float on at max fuel isn't a real big nerf to them. It's a nerf to axis which can build their heavy tanks anymore and need more arty to compensate because they can afford it now.

[Warhawks97]

Think the Elephant is fine where it is. People can use Nashorns if they want to. Hummel is very cheap MP wise so I wouldn't mind increasing it up a bit.

Can't say I like the idea of fuel upkeep on arty since I see it as a Huge boost to artillery focused doctrines. A team with no map control doesn't get arty it's as simple as that.

People aren't going to get weapons on their infantry with the extra munitions. They are going to get more arty.
Since the change I have seen atleast one less arty piece per player. Gone are the days where you could sit on 4 different arty pieces and bomb anything and everything.

Fuel upkeep on arty doctrines that usually float on at max fuel isn't a real big nerf to them. It's a nerf to axis which can build their heavy tanks anymore and need more arty to compensate because they can afford it now.

Thats why i would increase rather the build cost of arty units, especially heavy once, a bit more and putting more CP´s on them. That would help more to keep the ammount in check. People will have to spend the ressources into something else to stay in the fight instead of getting arty just as cheaply as a mortar. If they relax and wait untill the 450 MP drop mark is reached they might be dead already.
I would also prefer to increase barrage costs to like 65 for 105 arty and at least 100 for 150.

As for SE: They easily convert fuel into ammo, so technically it wont change a lot whether they cost fuel upkeep or ammo. Also lot have complained already about a lack of ammo here.

Meanwhile playing as inf doc ammo is a real achilles heel because it so ammo hungry but always sits on tons of fuel.


Also, thats the point: Either get arty or heavy tanks but often times its easy to spam both.

[Consti255]

i mean, there is nothing against it, that the elephant stays were it is as a reward unit in this presented Doc tree.

[Warhawks97]

i mean, there is nothing against it, that the elephant stays were it is as a reward unit in this presented Doc tree.

my idea with SE was to be different from def doc that starts with armored casemate tanks and scale into big guns on SPG.
SE idea was to go first for SPG TD´s and big guns and at the end for hetzer which in turn would become cheap enough to help SE handling the swarms of shermans and light vehicles. It was just an idea. Perhaps elephant can be unlocked before hetzer afterall, would be funny and unique.

[CGarr]

i mean, there is nothing against it, that the elephant stays were it is as a reward unit in this presented Doc tree.

my idea with SE was to be different from def doc that starts with armored casemate tanks and scale into big guns on SPG.
SE idea was to go first for SPG TD´s and big guns and at the end for hetzer which in turn would become cheap enough to help SE handling the swarms of shermans and light vehicles. It was just an idea. Perhaps elephant can be unlocked before hetzer afterall, would be funny and unique.

I really like the last doctrine tree you presented, I've got questions/comments on a few points though.

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Questions
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1. Elefant vs Nashorn: I honestly feel that this is just a personal preference thing. I see what you mean, and I don't think your suggestion is necessarily unreasonable, but I would personally much prefer having the Elefant in my arsenal than a Nashorn when playing SE, and it seems like others in the thread might agree. Would having the Elefant be a reward unit for the Nashorn doctrine unlock slot be a fair compromise?

- The Elefant compliments your proposed assault demolition branch quite well, acting as both heavy AT support and a bullet sponge to help you find / keep vision of targets for the StuH or Hummel.

- The Nashorn works better in a more defensive playstyle alongside the Denial Artillery branch, for presumably obvious reasons.

- On a related note, is there any reason why we don't just make both available with the same unlock (no reward unit choice needed), but make them mutually exclusive (if elefant built, no nashorns, and vice versa)?






2. Fuel for ammo trade: I wouldn't mind seeing it go away, not sure how I feel about the whole fuel upkeep replacing ammo upkeep idea though. Leaning towards no for that part.

- I feel like the fuel upkeep would hurt, considering how expensive PE vehicle / tanks are.

- I could be wrong, as you did include the cheaper marder option. I'd have to playtest to really form an opinion here.






3. Cheaper marders: I like the idea, I just feel like a small fuel cost decrease alongside the MP cost decrease would be nice.

- Again, PE's unit roster is pretty expensive in general, and all the units are already pretty strong by default, so they don't really need stronger stuff from their doctrines as much as just improvements to the macro side.

- Could be wrong, would need to playtest.






4. Inf upgrades (Assault pio upgrades and the ambush/sabo unlock): I like these, would just swap around the nade cost and ambush portions. The assault pio unlock should also be separate from the heavy demolition line. I'll attach a revised image of the doctrine tree you posted in a bit to better explain what I mean.

- Sort of impartial to the cheaper nade idea as a whole, I definitely wouldn't put it on the same unlock as the assault pio upgrade though. Nades are a short range tool, and PE inf isn't exactly lacking in short range firepower. Having nades be cheaper would be nice for quickly clearing emplacements and buildings with inf, though, so it's not a bad idea, just feels like it'd fit better alongside the sabotage/SE unlocks, as it's more of a tool for taking ground or changing the battlefield than it is a direct combat implement (unlike the ambush ability).

- more points here, running out of time so I'll post later or this weekend.





5. Hetzer unlock: If we're trying to get away from the heavy emphasis on casemates that both Def Doc and PS doc (when played conservatively) have, is there any reason we are sticking with a Hetzer for this slot?

- If it just needs to counter shermans and light vehicles, a camo P4 option would easily fill the same purpose while also allowing the doc to be significantly more aggressive in playstyle. Looking at all the complaints on this thread, the campy nature of SE in the current meta seems to be a big issue.

- The price of a P4 J is pretty close to the Hetzer.

- Both have reasonable defensive stats (at least in the context of fighting shermans), on top the first shot advantage that comes with ambush. The P4 would also be able to make better use of these armor stats on the move, as it would be able to respond much more quickly to threats while still remaining mobile (by virtue of having a turret).

- The guns would probably perform pretty similarly. The P4 presumably wouldn't have HEAT, but you have to unlock a heavy TD in the same unlock path anyways, so this probably isn't a big issue, especially in the role you described (sherman/vehicle spam counter).

Pz4 camo seems really off & super weird.

- Is it really that weird? P4's are only like 5 inches taller than an M18, I'd imagine it'd be similarly easy to camo (especially when compared to something like an Elefant). In a macro sense, the P4 would function in pretty much the exact same role that a Hetzer currently does, as a slightly better TD option that is still quite cost efficient. In a micro sense, you get a tank that can engage both inf and tanks with a decent level of effectiveness while still having the ability to ambush, similar to an M18. Again, having a noncasemate tank capable of ambush would definitely help differentiate SE from other Axis docs, as it would be the only doc with a unit that functions in this manner.

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Comments
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- I love the stuh addition. Assault guns are a bit funky to use, but they're definitely fun, and I don't really see them being a very controversial unit.

- Having to 105mm howitzers would be a nice breath of fresh air for PE in general. I hate being so reliant on fuel for arty on PE, and the nebelwerfer is often quite buggy, so I am always hesistant to built it. It's also extremely slow, so I feel like it's always a prime counter-arty target.

- Seeing more inf doctrinal upgrades for SE is nice, glad people are actually making suggestions to address this rather than just mentioning it in passing.

[mofetagalactica]

Im pretty good with any changes, staying with the same patch without any changes makes the game booring after a while.

[Consti255]

I personally like the P IV camo idea from dicky.
Pretty hungover right now, gonna post more later

[Warhawks97]

I am so glad to see you both, CGarr and Mofeta in the forum again. I was afraid you have also already abandoned it entirely.

And thx for the detailed feedback. And i already set the past days on the desk thinking deeply about SE doc. Bad thing is, in 1-2 weeks university work starts again so i will be short in time then.


To point:

1.Thought the same. Was about to revise some stuff. I think i am gonna remove the ammo HT from the unlock list and add Elephant there. In future i would simply hope that artillery becomes more expensive to get and operate as i wrote in the other Topic. However, in case someone faces a really heavy camping situation he should have some tools to handle that nasty situation. Hence ammo HT´s near an arty unit will always decrease the barrage cost. The barrage cost of an 105 howitzer would usually be 65. However, when placing an ammo HT near it will always drop it down to 50 as well as reducing cooldowns.
As for the Elephant and Nashorn, i would never want to be without Nashorn in SE doc. So i dont want them mutually exclusive. Having the Elephant can at times be quite usefull, but i would never sacrafice my Nashorn for it. I will give the players both options, depending which branch they go for.



2. Fuel should in future fullfill a more cruical role for tec, research, fielding and maintaining heavy equipment. So it wouldnt be like you can more or less insta full tec 6 mins into the game and start spamming howitzers and tanks for little fuel cost. So that means that fuel will be a cruical factor for every faction and doctrine, and not just for 2 or 3 docs.
That also means that you may have some struggle with fuel, but you will not be the only one who has to take care with this ressource. Also you wont have to fight never ending hordes of tanks since hopefully they all will become a bit more expensive and less easy to spam in general.
Also fuel upkeep for arty helps SE to free a CP slot as we dont need res trade anymore.

3. True, thats a huge PE problem which is why i find PE always weird to play. You rely a lot on pure unit power which you have right away, but often lack units on a tactical level. But cheaper Marders and cheaper but later available hetzers should help with that issue.
Also i still hope that the unlocks in TS doc which makes inf better near vehicles and tanks becomes a PE factional thing to be researched in the inf support building and in turn PE Gren squads would become 5 men strong. Instead of increasing squad sizes we will unlock something that makes its inf better when fighting combined arms. That would further decrease cost i hope while trading pure squad power for squad power when fighting combined arms.


4. Yes, you are right actually. But i dont want isolate unlocks and i have no idea where to put it else. Sure, it would also fit the sabo line but sabo isnt exactly "attack and clear out enemie positions". What you called the sabo branch is actually the real scorched earth branch. So its all about laying booby traps, destroy points, blow up positions in the backline with satchels, laying mines and so on. So i would keep the cheaper grenades in the overall assault/demo branch.

5. The Hetzer will so far only be in SE doc. TS would go with the Jagdpanzer IV /48. And i think Hetzer is quite fitting to this doctrine in its overall concept and its smaller size and better front armor increases its chances of surivial
As for the Panzer IV´s i would say they should be all CP free and the Panzer IV J added as default tank to SE doc. I srsly dont want to waste any CP for such tanks.

updated some thoughts. I will comment later.

Edit:
Changes to the original suggestion:

1. Ammo HT removed as unlock. Artillery barrages in general would increase by average +10-15, sometimes more. However, when investing into ammo HT´s artillery in general can be used at riughly the prices we have been used to accross all factions.
2. The TD branch has been extended. There is now an unlock that enables vehicles and and Tanks like the Panzer IV to ambush. so this doc would have a unique way of using Panzer IV´s as TD´s.
3. The assault and demolition branch now got extended by the Elephant. The Elephant would now fill the role of an assault gun like tank rather than a TD. (which was actually its main role). The Tank would ofc lose its ability to ambush since it would work now as a mobile rolling fortress that covers the infantry from enemie tanks.
4. Alternatively to the cheaper Marder unlock could be a vet unlock for TD´s. I Think we should drop marder cost to 320 MP anyways since i feel like 360 is too much. After upgrade of the Panzerjäger Command building the cost would automatically drop down to 320 MP or even 300. So there wouldnt be a need anymore to unlock a cheaper production via CP´s.
5. The Infantry upgrade would automatically enable infantry to use incendiary ammunition and Flamethrower

[Consti255]

Cool idea with the elephant.
What should its abilitys be?