75 mm leig AoE

[Warhawks97]

That gun has some wrong AoE brackets i suppose. I was wondering why it can whipe full squads easily well beyound its actual AoE blast area.

For most artillery units of its type (eg 81 mm mortar, pack howitzer and so on) the AoE brackets are usually like 1.5/3.5/6/10. However this thing is 1.5/5.5/7.5/10.

Considering esspecially that at mid range AoE bracket the blast still has 50% of its power. I think the AoE should be arround the same as all the other guns have it.



I was actually about to open up an entire Topic about HE in BK since HE is an over brutalized effect in BK. I dont want to downplay its importance or how deadly this stuff is, but since pretty much everything above the 60 mm US mortar is essentially a "super blaster" that oneshots squads so fucking often right with the first hit, i would say we should have a debate about HE in general.

Esspecially 37 mm HE is so crazy currently in BK, well beyond what it should be and even more deadly than cromwell 75 mm HE (which for some reason is a really really poor HE). Also mortars have an blast area that exceeds that of an 105 mm howitzer. I dont get why in BK everything is like "downscaled" compared to reality while HE has blast areas comparable, if not being even larger than in reality.


On top of that there are tons of stats i dont really get with completely different damage/effects of weapons that are essentially equal in cost/role etc.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I think LeiG18 is fine as it is currently.. limited to 1 doc, and has very narrow cone of fire, these downsides are comoensated by the ability to camo, compared for example to the RAF field gun which has a very wide range (similar to 17pdr) on the other hand, and btw; did u know the AB 75mm howitzer (also in RAF) can destroy a full HP Flak88 emplacement in just 1 salvo? The damage vs houses & fortifications is much greater than LieG barrage.

LieG18 is a very specialized weapon & other docs can only access this via FHQ.

Moreover; i don't think we need an HE revision.. each unit is mostly balanced at the moment, just as v5.3.0 generally is.

infantry game-play is also very potent since vehicles vision reduction.. not to mention HE rounds can still miss, and are less lethal vs inf behind heavy cover.

P S
Cromwell HE isn't as good cuz of flank speed.

[Redgaarden]

Tigar the Leig is a mix between a pack howitzer and the field gun. It's a camo arty piece that neutralizes any infantry that comes near it and can bomb. It's barrage is almost completely silenced furthering it's silent ninja assassin kit.
The thing is super op with how deadly it is.
And a wide arc is only a + if it helps you hit more targets. Leig has no problems tracking infantry so it's lower arc is not actually a problem.


It's HE should definitely be nerfed, The gun should be louder, And maybe also the impacts because they feel like they are less noticeable than a 2 inch mortar bomb.
It's easier to hear an anti tank rifle shooting than that thing.

I was actually about to open up an entire Topic about HE in BK since HE is an over brutalized effect in BK. I dont want to downplay its importance or how deadly this stuff is, but since pretty much everything above the 60 mm US mortar is essentially a "super blaster" that oneshots squads so fucking often right with the first hit, i would say we should have a debate about HE in general.

People are complaining about squads surviving HE blasts. HE is pretty meta defining and without it Tanks would be destroyed by any AT infantry.
Dont think we should force infantry to become meta since it would only mean that rushing high tier arty will become even more important if you want to stay competitive. 81 mortar are pretty easy to counter with the addition to so many medium caliber arty pieces.
So I think the HE is pretty fine for the most part.
Cromwell has bad HE because its speed and how cheap they are. If you need better anti infantry you can always go for a crusader.

[Redgaarden]

Tigar the Leig is a mix between a pack howitzer and the field gun. It's a camo arty piece that neutralizes any infantry that comes near it and can bomb. It's barrage is almost completely silenced furthering it's silent ninja assassin kit.
The thing is super op with how deadly it is.
And a wide arc is only a + if it helps you hit more targets. Leig has no problems tracking infantry so it's lower arc is not actually a problem.


It's HE should definitely be nerfed, The gun should be louder, And maybe also the impacts because they feel like they are less noticeable than a 2 inch mortar bomb.
It's easier to hear an anti tank rifle shooting than that thing.

I was actually about to open up an entire Topic about HE in BK since HE is an over brutalized effect in BK. I dont want to downplay its importance or how deadly this stuff is, but since pretty much everything above the 60 mm US mortar is essentially a "super blaster" that oneshots squads so fucking often right with the first hit, i would say we should have a debate about HE in general.

People are complaining about squads surviving HE blasts. HE is pretty meta defining and without it Tanks would be destroyed by any AT infantry.
Dont think we should force infantry to become meta since it would only mean that rushing high tier arty will become even more important if you want to stay competitive. 81 mortar are pretty easy to counter with the addition to so many medium caliber arty pieces.
So I think the HE is pretty fine for the most part.
Cromwell has bad HE because its speed and how cheap they are. If you need better anti infantry you can always go for a crusader.

[Krieger Blitzer]

The barrage isn't that silent, probably just not as loud as other combat sounds u would hear in-game.. thus it's covered up, but btw; the LeiG18 barrage got nerfed a couple of patches ago and is now MUCH weaker (and i mean MUCH WEAKER) compared to other 75mm howitzers.

So direct shooting is the only real advantage LieG currently has, since it's not an effective arty piece anymore.
Also, btw.. speaking of silent barrages; the 75mm howitzers aren't that loud either and take multiple hits for them to finally reveal their location in Fog of War.

The cone of fire is also a big deal, makes it a lot easier to flank.
Don't forget it's also more expensive than other howitzers of its caliber.

I barely see LieG18 at all except in games with Def doc players, and it's usually 1 single unit.. scoring several kills, yes.. but it's pretty much the top unit Def players had until mid game.
Def doc inf isn't that competent early to mid game... So, i don't see why LieG should be nerfed at all (also consumes ammo upkeep btw).

[Warhawks97]

The barrage isn't that silent, probably just not as loud as other combat sounds u would hear in-game.. thus it's covered up, but btw; the LeiG18 barrage got nerfed a couple of patches ago and is now MUCH weaker (and i mean MUCH WEAKER) compared to other 75mm howitzers.

You dont get my point. I watched the our 3 vs 3 replay and there your opponents leig 18 took out an entire unit in a yellow trench cover despite the shot actually landed on the street and fairly from a far distance to you unit. However, they all died.

Usually the AoE brackets for these type of guns are:

1.5/3.5/6/10 (short to long range AoE)

However, the leig 18 has 1.5/5.5/7.5/10.
The damage modifiers are usually 1.5/0.7/0.4/0.2

So from short to medium and medium to long range AoE blast area is the damage drop most significant and thats where this gun has the greatest advantage due to its unusual range brackets.

for instance a Pack howitzer shell lands at at a distance of arround 5.5 range away from target. The 100 damage it originally deals drops down to almost 40. However, the leig 18 impacting this far away still deals 63 damage. Sounds like its not much, but it is very significant since many soldier models, weapon crews and basic inf have not more than 60-65 HP.

I think LeiG18 is fine as it is currently.. limited to 1 doc, and has very narrow cone of fire, these downsides are comoensated by the ability to camo, compared for example to the RAF field gun which has a very wide range (similar to 17pdr) on the other hand, and btw; did u know the AB 75mm howitzer (also in RAF) can destroy a full HP Flak88 emplacement in just 1 salvo? The damage vs houses & fortifications is much greater than LieG barrage.

Thats because of this:

The 75 mm pack howitzer enjoys two advantages: 1: Higher basic damage that is 100 vs 90 damage from leig 18. 2: Damage in impact point is 180 vs 135 for leig 18. However, that doesnt matter so much since any solider dies from a direct hit.

But that can be tweaked as well.

I have always been surprised on the unusual powerfull AoE blast the leig 18 has even when compared to much bigger artillery units. And the leig 18 is in general the better unit since its a lot more mobile, can ambush (which btw adds 25% damage) so even at a pretty big AoE area the damage is as high as 78,75 damage. So, among all medium type artillery, this one has pretty big oneshot squad whipe capabilities.

I just want to adjust the AoE brackets to 1.5/3.5/6/10. And even those are in my opinion pretty strong already. But when i get time i want to open a general discussion about AoE effects for 37 mm guns, 50,60,80 mm mortars and 75 mm artillery units and tank guns because some of the effects are beyond reason.

People are complaining about squads surviving HE blasts. HE is pretty meta defining and without it Tanks would be destroyed by any AT infantry.
Dont think we should force infantry to become meta since it would only mean that rushing high tier arty will become even more important if you want to stay competitive. 81 mortar are pretty easy to counter with the addition to so many medium caliber arty pieces.
So I think the HE is pretty fine for the most part.
Cromwell has bad HE because its speed and how cheap they are. If you need better anti infantry you can always go for a crusader.

i know, dont worry. I have been one of the greatest supporter of "dont make tanks frontally rushable by inf". So i wouldnt dare to change it.

What i would want to say in the coming topic is to change the HE meta. It totally makes basic inf kind of usless once they show up and have a too large impact in the early game. I mean for real, the 37 mm HE deals sometimes more damage than a sherman (just saying) and thus one shot decides too often about a quick victory. The past games the Hotchkiss tanks could defend themselves vs pretty much everything for themselves except for beefy medium tanks. But inf always died to one shot.

HE should not be so limited in range and instead should use normal gun ranges. However, the effects should be a lot more damaging/suppressing. For instance: German 75 mm HE shells from lets say Panther has 95 base damage and thats boosted to 142,5 vs inf due to modifiers. The AoE blast area is 7 and at its furthest range still deals 50% of its damage, meaning 71,25 in total. That totally whipes the floor of any inf.

There is one sort of inf that can resist though: Boost heavy elite inf with infinite health and damage reduction bonuses. I think thats what people complain about.

My general though on this is:
1. HP differences should not be so big, varrying only between 60- max 80 or 85 HP.
2. AoE blasts of medium guns and mortars (81 mm mortar, 75 mm howitzers, 75 mm tank guns) should be standardized in terms of AoE to be arround 8-9 range. Right now it ranges from 7 (tanks) to 12 (mortar).
3. Damage should be pretty big on impact point and closely arround it, but then falling off a bit more. Suppression values however should be doubled or trippled.
4. HE fired from guns should use normal gun ranges (except for AT guns).

[Walderschmidt]

Do you have a link to the replay?

I don't think there's a problem with the LeIG since it got nerfed but I'm willing to double check the replay.

Wald

[CGarr]

Leig as it is now helps a lot in dealing with early CW inf spam without resorting to hard camping, I don't think it'd be a good idea to change it. The 37mm AT gun's HE is more obnoxious than the LeiG by far IMO, as you can't push against that unit with anything except for indirect fire if it's well positioned.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Leig as it is now helps a lot in dealing with early CW inf spam without resorting to hard camping, I don't think it'd be a good idea to change it. The 37mm AT gun's HE is more obnoxious than the LeiG by far IMO, as you can't push against that unit with anything except for indirect fire if it's well positioned.

Ye, can agree on the 37mm AT gun HE.. i think it should be turned into single-shot for 35 ammo and not timed ability.
This way, it will perform similar to US 37mm AT guns with canister shot.. 1 shot only, but just HE for Axis.

The timed ability allows it to fire 3 or 4 consecutive rounds in short duration of time.

[Warhawks97]

Do you have a link to the replay?

I don't think there's a problem with the LeIG since it got nerfed but I'm willing to double check the replay.

Wald

I have played quite numerous games with this unit being used and i think i even made a topic about it years ago to check its AoE stats. I might have the replay saved in which the shell landed fairly in a distance to a mortar crew but yet taking them out entirely.

I cant see what exactly was nerfed. I compared the current files with old once.

Its also not rare to see players who are aware of this use two of them right in the beginning of the game. A moment when the ammount of units is still limited and also squishy. So every shot being a potential one shot kill when used as arty unit or defensive unit is outright broken.

Leig as it is now helps a lot in dealing with early CW inf spam without resorting to hard camping, I don't think it'd be a good idea to change it. The 37mm AT gun's HE is more obnoxious than the LeiG by far IMO, as you can't push against that unit with anything except for indirect fire if it's well positioned.

CW inf spam? Well, thats quite new. There is one moment when CW comes after you with Boys AT, LT, Sappers and perhaps a inf squad and mortar crew. But once you got over it there is not much CW can make a comeback from. Playing as PE or WH you can quite easily get sufficient numbers onto the field to counter that and have a higher degree of mobility as well. The Leig tbh is in my opinion the definition of hard camp. Pios, Volsgrens+ HMG, pak 36 and Leig is the instant beginning of hard camp. And right after that comes the cheap 2 CP 105 mm howitzer. So i dont get how to argue that leig is "counter hard camp". Or lets say it does both. It offers hard camp capabilties for the user, while breaking pretty much every potent early enemie defense instantly. So its a one sided hard camp enabler.

The 37 mm HE is by far the most broken in the game. The stuart has better HE than a cromwell and the axis 37 mm HE might only have "5" range AoE instead of 7, but deals extroadinary damage. IIRC it does 60 base damage+ 50% vs inf makes it 90 damage and thats doubled right in the center of the explosion making it dealing 180 damage vs inf (more than any other HE except for the very big HE guns and howitzers). And even within this 50 range blast area, any basic inf will likely die. The 37 mm HE rounds are probably the most disturbing AoE weapons in BK.

So, in a HR game as def doc, it is quite easy to get quick access to a huge arsenal of oneshot killers and artillery such as 37 mm Paks, 75 mm leig and 81 mm mortars.

[Consti255]

tbh, i always felt it is underperforming and not even close to overperforming.

Still, its sounds could get an update so it is louder.

[CGarr]

CW inf spam? Well, thats quite new. There is one moment when CW comes after you with Boys AT, LT, Sappers and perhaps a inf squad and mortar crew. But once you got over it there is not much CW can make a comeback from. Playing as PE or WH you can quite easily get sufficient numbers onto the field to counter that and have a higher degree of mobility as well. The Leig tbh is in my opinion the definition of hard camp. Pios, Volsgrens+ HMG, pak 36 and Leig is the instant beginning of hard camp. And right after that comes the cheap 2 CP 105 mm howitzer. So i dont get how to argue that leig is "counter hard camp". Or lets say it does both. It offers hard camp capabilties for the user, while breaking pretty much every potent early enemie defense instantly. So its a one sided hard camp enabler.

Why would you go for a 105 after getting a leig? the leig already eats into your ammo if you use it regularly, a 105 on top would just be overkill. The leig allows you to pursue the emplacement and inf trees while still having something to uproot campy CW players who are going inf heavy.

So, in a HR game as def doc, it is quite easy to get quick access to a huge arsenal of oneshot killers and artillery such as 37 mm Paks, 75 mm leig and 81 mm mortars.

I agree, but this isnt a solid argument for a nerf of any specific weapon and I don't agree with your reasoning for wanting to nerf the leig. Go after the 37mm HE if you're going to ask for a nerf to address this issue, that little demon gun is way more problematic than the leig has ever been.

[Warhawks97]

I agree, but this isnt a solid argument for a nerf of any specific weapon and I don't agree with your reasoning for wanting to nerf the leig. Go after the 37mm HE if you're going to ask for a nerf to address this issue, that little demon gun is way more problematic than the leig has ever been.

I want it to bring it to a level other weapons with same calibre and role have. Would you say the Pack howitzer is weak and unable to do its job? I guess not. I just want the leig 18 to have same or similiar AoE stats.

Right now the leig 18 is miles aheas of the packhowitzer. It is faster and less cumbersome, can ambush, has direct fire, insane AoE stats which in combo of the ambush damage boost literally boosts it into a real steroid gun which in the early game is extremely dangerous since it whipes squads with literally every shot even when those land at a fair distance to the target. Being able to inflict so many losses so easily in the early game is often time a matchwinning factor, esspecially when the enemies capabilities to just like that "whipe away units" are a lot more limited which means you also get tec lead and not just an advantage in a tactical sense.

but as i said, when i get time i wanna talk about AoE weapons in bk in a larger sense since a lot of AoE weapons are just insanse, esspecially the 37 mm guns and also medium mortars with a larger blast area than a 105 mm arty has.

[MarKr]

I checked the stats and they are different than those of the Pack howitzer. On the other hand, pack howitzer has different settings even in TTs so e.g. it always "penetrates" the infantry armor while Leig can roll a "non-penetration" roll in its AoE and so cause that a target in AoE takes no damage, LeiG's damage vs emplacement is unchanged while Pack howitzer has it halved etc.

So in some ways the Leig is stronger, in others the Leig is weaker. Given that guns of similar purpose don't have to have the same stats and also given the reasons given here by other players, I'm not sure if it needs to be changed because the biggest outcome of such a change seems to be that we'll be able to say "well, now the AoE settings match".

We'll discuss it internally and see what comes up.

[Walderschmidt]

I think it is fine after the last time Warhawks made a thread about it and it got rightfully nerfed.

Wald

[Redgaarden]

My problem with the thing is how good it is on the frontlines early game. I have a hard time flanking it due to it having stealth And I wont be able to shoot it without getting very close. Each shot has a high chance of wiping a squad, and it has high accuracy and rate of fire.

So In short its early game potential where lots of weak squads are running around is where it thrives. I think the easiest solution is to lock it behind assault phase instead of skirmish phase.

[Walderschmidt]

My problem with the thing is how good it is on the frontlines early game. I have a hard time flanking it due to it having stealth And I wont be able to shoot it without getting very close. Each shot has a high chance of wiping a squad, and it has high accuracy and rate of fire.

So In short its early game potential where lots of weak squads are running around is where it thrives. I think the easiest solution is to lock it behind assault phase instead of skirmish phase.

Why not lock the camo behind assault phase?

Wald

[Krieger Blitzer]

I dare to say it's absolutely fine as it is, it's already limited to 1 doc.

Rather to nerf the 37 AT gun HE, because both combined can be very painful.
So maybe the timed HE ability can be changed into 1 shot (similar to canister) with reasonable cooldown & price.. otherwise currently, the timed HE allows it to shoot multiple times, which is OP.

[Walderschmidt]

I dare to say it's absolutely fine as it is, it's already limited to 1 doc.

Rather to nerf the 37 AT gun HE, because both combined can be very painful.
So maybe the timed HE ability can be changed into 1 shot (similar to canister) with reasonable cooldown & price.. otherwise currently, the timed HE allows it to shoot multiple times, which is OP.

True, but it also doesn’t get AP rounds that can’t take out PIVs frontally.

Wald

[Redgaarden]

Why not lock the camo behind assault phase?

Because it has heavy cover and can just walk up to enemy infantry squads and shoot jeeps.

there is little counterplay to do against that thing except for sniper + recon combo. Mortars die to it, rifles die to it, machine guns die to it, jeeps die to it. Haven't tested it against heavier stuff than jeeps.
And I know you wouldn't need the recon if it can't camo, but you can build the things before you tech up. The delay would be far shorter that way.

And it would be on par with 75mm arty piece which is unlocked after motor pool upgrade.

[Walderschmidt]

Why not lock the camo behind assault phase?

Because it has heavy cover and can just walk up to enemy infantry squads and shoot jeeps.

there is little counterplay to do against that thing except for sniper + recon combo. Mortars die to it, rifles die to it, machine guns die to it, jeeps die to it. Haven't tested it against heavier stuff than jeeps.
And I know you wouldn't need the recon if it can't camo, but you can build the things before you tech up. The delay would be far shorter that way.

And it would be on par with 75mm arty piece which is unlocked after motor pool upgrade.

1) It only available to defense doc at T2 out of the Krieg Barracks. The other two doctrines must get an FHQ to get it.

2) It absolutely cannot walk up to infantry. I respect that you’re a better player than I am but I would like to see some replays before I believe this claim. It’s got a pretty narrow cone of fire so if you catch it in the wrong position it’s usually dead, in my experience.

Something doesn’t add up for me.

Wald

[Consti255]

Why not lock the camo behind assault phase?

Because it has heavy cover and can just walk up to enemy infantry squads and shoot jeeps.

there is little counterplay to do against that thing except for sniper + recon combo. Mortars die to it, rifles die to it, machine guns die to it, jeeps die to it. Haven't tested it against heavier stuff than jeeps.
And I know you wouldn't need the recon if it can't camo, but you can build the things before you tech up. The delay would be far shorter that way.

And it would be on par with 75mm arty piece which is unlocked after motor pool upgrade.

1) It only available to defense doc at T2 out of the Krieg Barracks. The other two doctrines must get an FHQ to get it.

2) It absolutely cannot walk up to infantry. I respect that you’re a better player than I am but I would like to see some replays before I believe this claim. It’s got a pretty narrow cone of fire so if you catch it in the wrong position it’s usually dead, in my experience.

Something doesn’t add up for me.

Wald

i agree 100%.

I dont get this whole debate tbh. This things wont even get used often. I rarely see them.
Like where is the reason to get those, when you can just get heavy 105mm for 2 CP?
I can see in HR games, that this things can do some damage because they arrive early, but still i alost never see them lol.

Also, i cannot support the line that everyone dies to it and it is uncounterable. It suffers like every support weapons from flanks. And no dont get me with the oh it packs up so fast... The time it saves while getting uppicked, it looses when getting uppicked again due to that small cone.
Also, when the enemy already has Kriegsbaracks + tiering. You are most likely to be able to fiel M20s, greyhounds or even Stuarts if yo urush them.

Show some replays, where this things overperform, otherwhise i would let them untouched.

[Warhawks97]

Why not lock the camo behind assault phase?

Because it has heavy cover and can just walk up to enemy infantry squads and shoot jeeps.

there is little counterplay to do against that thing except for sniper + recon combo. Mortars die to it, rifles die to it, machine guns die to it, jeeps die to it. Haven't tested it against heavier stuff than jeeps.
And I know you wouldn't need the recon if it can't camo, but you can build the things before you tech up. The delay would be far shorter that way.

And it would be on par with 75mm arty piece which is unlocked after motor pool upgrade.

1) It only available to defense doc at T2 out of the Krieg Barracks. The other two doctrines must get an FHQ to get it.

2) It absolutely cannot walk up to infantry. I respect that you’re a better player than I am but I would like to see some replays before I believe this claim. It’s got a pretty narrow cone of fire so if you catch it in the wrong position it’s usually dead, in my experience.

Something doesn’t add up for me.

Wald

technically just in the way you do with pak 36 that can also be used as assault guns to clear buildings etc. Basically you make a long line of friendly inf that pushes bit forward and bring your assault artillery forward. I think this thing has more range than the pak 36 so its possible. Last match i could use the pak 36 easily as assault gun. Pios/volks at the flanks in a slightly forward position and guns in the center to use deadly HE to push the enemies out from his sandbags and cover. If you combine this with an early halftrack so that you can reinforce crew members or recrew weaoons while reinforcing the pios things get even easier. You should really try doing this. Sometimes i even use double pak 36, one to push, one as back up defense.


Anyways, regarding the leig:

1.I would make it to become thing that is in between pack howitzer and RAF assault gun. It can fire directly like the RAF gun but also has an arty ability but with shorter range than pack howitzer and about equal stats (damage, AoE).

2. Remove the damage boost from ambush. I dont get how an HE shot can somehow become more deadly in terms of AoE. Makes kinda no sense.

3. Drop cost to arround 300 MP instead 350.

4. Docs that have access to it can always build it from kriegsbarracks (second building)

i agree 100%.

I dont get this whole debate tbh. This things wont even get used often. I rarely see them.
Like where is the reason to get those, when you can just get heavy 105mm for 2 CP?
I can see in HR games, that this things can do some damage because they arrive early, but still i alost never see them lol.

Show some replays, where this things overperform, otherwhise i would let them untouched.

having a 105 for 2 CP and for the cost of about a mortar shouldnt even exist in the first place.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Anyways, regarding the leig:

1.I would make it to become thing that is in between pack howitzer and RAF assault gun. It can fire directly like the RAF gun but also has an arty ability but with shorter range than pack howitzer and about equal stats (damage, AoE).

2. Remove the damage boost from ambush. I dont get how an HE shot can somehow become more deadly in terms of AoE. Makes kinda no sense.

3. Drop cost to arround 300 MP instead 350.

4. Docs that have access to it can always build it from kriegsbarracks (second building)

I don't agree with this approach.. making it weaker but available to more docs, sounds like yet another standardization... Whereas the Lieg18 should be unique and not easily obtainable everywhere; not to mention Luft doc can only obtain this with CPs so this isn't a good idea after all.

Therefore, I call for no changes over the Lieg18, but i am open to changes for the HE on 37mm AT guns.

And about the 2 CP 105 in Def doc btw, no.. i think it's fine as it is too.
Because the Def doc doesn't rely much on off-maps, unlike inf & RA docs.

Let me draw ur attention that lately, u have literally complained about 2 CP 105, Lieg18, & Grille which are all in Def doc.. plus complaints about the entire SE doc as well... Which gives the impression that u aim for nothing but a flat out nerf to Def doc and the rest of Axis arty across the board.

[Warhawks97]

I don't agree with this approach.. making it weaker but available to more docs, sounds like yet another standardization... Whereas the Lieg18 should be unique and not easily obtainable everywhere; not to mention Luft doc can only obtain this with CPs so this isn't a good idea after all.

Unique in which way? That it has crazy AoE while also having the advantage of being: Extremely mobile, able to camo that also boosts damage and thus its AoE even further and can also be used as artillery unit?

Only the def doc 88 is perhaps more fersatile but it cant camo and cant move. So having a unit this tiny and cheap but still so flexible that it is a powerfull defensive asset as well as an powerfull artillery asset makes it super unique already. It doesnt have to outclass specialized arty units like pack howitzer (which it clearly does let alone its far superior mobility) and doesnt need to outclass assault infantry guns such as the RAF field gun.

And about the 2 CP 105 in Def doc btw, no.. i think it's fine as it is too.
Because the Def doc doesn't rely much on off-maps, unlike inf & RA docs.

So, throwing away almost all your starting units in a brainless manner in order to get the CP to get a big ass arty unit to start bombing your opponent right after 4 mins into the game is ok for you? Srsly, i had a couple of games now where essentially only one real engagment took place in the early game and the howitzer was up already. Thats just broken.

Def doc used to have an unlock that enabled them to throw some artillery on a capture point in order to defend that one. That would be some sort usefull off map arty to start with rather than being able to get this artillery unit instantly which grants you artillery superiority for quite some time.

Def doc does have the leig as first means of indirect fire, so.

Let me draw ur attention that lately, u have literally complained about 2 CP 105, Lieg18, & Grille which are all in Def doc.. plus complaints about the entire SE doc as well... Which gives the impression that u aim for nothing but a flat out nerf to Def doc and the rest of Axis arty across the board.

As said, 105 for such a low price is insane, regardless of faction or doctrine. It should always require more tec and CP´s.
As for the 105 arty and heavier arty in general as you asking about it:

Minimum should be:
1. 3-4 CP
2. 400 MP/40-50 fuel build cost
3. Panzer Factory, Panzer Support building or Motorpool upgrade or supply yard being up.
4. Range: 275 in order to make it less easy to counter with random rocket artillery salvos since many rockets fly well beyond the max range and target area.
4. Fuel upkeep of 2.


The game turns arty heavy real quick currently.

As for the Grille:
It is still one of those "old school BK logic" things: Make it super expensive and super bad ass. Its like the king on a chessboard that you have to beat. Or the Queen that completely destroys you when you dont take care of it. We have managed to give units roles to fit into a wider set of units rather than "single army units". We did this with every unit so far, including units like Tigers and so on.

I just want the Grille to be not just a "Hummel+" but a unit in its very own sense with its own purpose that you get for certain situations. Right now it is: "Get it, its always the right decision." So if you are unsure what you may need or what your enemie comes up with: Get Grille.

SE:
Sorry, but EVERY game i played was vs SE, usually double SE with firestorms and sector arty instantly and nonstop. 2 Off maps for 3 CP in total, one defensive, one offensive, is plain stupid.

Edit: Even wurf seems to go SE sometimes currently. Something ive never seen before in many years and dozens of games with and against him. So SE is currently absolute meta as it seems and its not rare to face two times SE and both going straight arty so that you face idk how many hotchkiss tanks and sector artillery.
So even when wurf starts playing SE now, things seem to be off. Also i forgot to mention: Who the fuck had that crazy idea to make Hummel this cheap. Holly crap. Its being used like normal 105 arty: Shoot at everything you see!
Bottom point: the 150 mm artillery units are off-balance currently and complete no-brainers.