PE minesweeper.

[MarKr]

But do you need infantry with minesweepers when your Kettens and Schwimms can detect mines? They don't even need any upgrade to reveal mines. Kettens and Schwimms can capture points in early game pretty quickly so you will most likely get at least one just for the fast teritorry grab. Why not use it for mine detection, too?

Also, a minesweeper will remove one rifle from the PGrens (or any squad) and so it lowers their combat efficiency. If you use Ketten, you'll have full PGren "DPS" and also mine detection. If you use Schwimm, you have full PGren "DPS", mine detection and also extra DPS from the Schwimm's MG.

Moreover, it sounds as if the very basic point here was "other factions have minesweepers, PE doesn't", but other factions have minesweepers because they don't have any equivalent to Ketten/Schwimm that would reveal mines, thus they need to use infantry. So the point shouldn't be "all other factions have infantry with minesweepers but PE doesn't, so let's give them one", it should be "all factions should have early game options to reveal mines" - and they do.

[Consti255]

why would you "rework" those? just give them the minesweeper.
And yes, it honestly kills my immersion, when i see a unit, wich was just designed and used for fast and hard attacks, turns into a pioneer unit.
People would go mad if rangers would do the same, why do Panzergrens suffer from vCoH as a building bitch for everthing?

The Beta makes it way better and is a step in the right direction, giving Stormpios more of that kind of work to do.

[MarKr]

why would you "rework" those? just give them the minesweeper.
And yes, it honestly kills my immersion, when i see a unit, wich was just designed and used for fast and hard attacks, turns into a pioneer unit.
People would go mad if rangers would do the same, why do Panzergrens suffer from vCoH as a building bitch for everthing?

The Beta makes it way better and is a step in the right direction, giving Stormpios more of that kind of work to do.

iMmErSiOn and rEaLiSm...
We can just rename them to "The dudes who build stuff and, like, fight sometimes" squad.

But really - what would you have them do? Let PE start with Ass.Pios and have PGrens more combat-oriented?
- PE would have hands down the strongest starting infantry with StG44 for free. This would need more balancing to nerf the pios to the level of other starting infantry, which would turn Ass.pios would to a mirror of WM Pios and then people would go crazy about "PE is just mirror to WM" again.
- PGrens would be just a weaker version of Ass.Grens. and in such a case, why have two units that do essentially the same? Then rebalancing would be needed to find them some place.

Turn Pgrens into the main combat infantry of PE because...realism?
- We already have Ass.Grens that have that role so Ass.Grens would either need a rework or they would need to be removed as their role would be taken over by PGrens. If reworked, then into what? Some elite infantry? That is available in all docs? Nope. Elite infantry only for one doc? We already have Luft for that. Keep them and just remove the repair and compensate with something? Still too similar to PGrens and also pretty much a mirror unit to Def doc Grens.

It just brings up so many smaller things to solve. If the name is what breaks the immersion for you, changing the name is literally the most efficient "fix".

[Consti255]

why would you "rework" those? just give them the minesweeper.
And yes, it honestly kills my immersion, when i see a unit, wich was just designed and used for fast and hard attacks, turns into a pioneer unit.
People would go mad if rangers would do the same, why do Panzergrens suffer from vCoH as a building bitch for everthing?

The Beta makes it way better and is a step in the right direction, giving Stormpios more of that kind of work to do.

iMmErSiOn and rEaLiSm...
We can just rename them to "The dudes who build stuff and, like, fight sometimes" squad.

But really - what would you have them do? Let PE start with Ass.Pios and have PGrens more combat-oriented?
- PE would have hands down the strongest starting infantry with StG44 for free. This would need more balancing to nerf the pios to the level of other starting infantry, which would turn Ass.pios would to a mirror of WM Pios and then people would go crazy about "PE is just mirror to WM" again.
- PGrens would be just a weaker version of Ass.Grens. and in such a case, why have two units that do essentially the same? Then rebalancing would be needed to find them some place.

Turn Pgrens into the main combat infantry of PE because...realism?
- We already have Ass.Grens that have that role so Ass.Grens would either need a rework or they would need to be removed as their role would be taken over by PGrens. If reworked, then into what? Some elite infantry? That is available in all docs? Nope. Elite infantry only for one doc? We already have Luft for that. Keep them and just remove the repair and compensate with something? Still too similar to PGrens and also pretty much a mirror unit to Def doc Grens.

It just brings up so many smaller things to solve. If the name is what breaks the immersion for you, changing the name is literally the most efficient "fix".

I get your point markr. I mean we presented ideas to make PGs more like what PGs should be. And that is still my take on that debate honestly.
Also i did praise your changes with the beta you made.
I were just saying, that i would like to get away from the overall faction design that panzergrens are your building bitch for everything and take a clear pionier role and beeing super passively used with building sandbags and so on, while their whole design was a different one.
Honestly, If you would simply rename them, it would be even welcome for me!
I know its more like a ReAlIsM thing, but why not simply change the name from them? Honestly you even said that we still have the heavy grens for that role.

This whole debate was just for minesweepers and i think it would be better fitting, if we would just give them to storm pios and luft pios.
And as you already said, PE has Kettens and Schwimms to detect mines anyway, all you need is a unit to clear them entirely.

[Diablo]

First name change I'd came up with would be "Panzerpioniere".
Although I feel like this would imply improved tank repair capabilities (e.g. the 3-man team US Repair Engineers).

[Mood]

I suppose it's impossible to have ketten/schwimm not just detect mines but also clear them?

[Redgaarden]

I kinda just want field craft to work. And you kinda need some kind of infantry minesweeping because swhimms die to easily on the frontline. You dont have an easy way to remove mines you know are there without throwing a nade or running it over with a scout car. The ketten detecion range is so low that it's almost unusable. If detection range was higher or on par with minesweeper it could also work. As I said the problem is that scout cars and armored cars functions just as well if not better than kettenkrad as a minesweeping unit.

If Field craft worked I do not think would break the balance of the game due to it mainly only working against mines you know are there, or mines that have been stupidly placed fx on the other side of cover that grens would sit behind. PE infantry doesn't stand still that much that you would accidentally find mines.

[Diablo]

Yeah I find it less than optimal to have unit groups stand completely still every now and then to be able to find unexpected mines. The ones in obvious places aren't a problem. Stopping any movement regularly doesn't really compliment an otherwise swiftly moving battlefield, which in my opinion is one of the biggest strengths resulting from BKs damage model.