Blitz Doc Panzer F2, J, and H Changes

[kwok]

Before you vote, please PLEASE read through the thread found here to catch up to the latest debate and ensure you've a well informed opinion.
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4714

There's been heated debate on a topic that the dev's can't comfortably come to a decision. Please take a vote to help gauge the general opinion of total BK players. As always the vote is just a factor for consideration, not a resolute decision.

If you're voting for status quo... don't be dumb and ONLY vote for status quo...
If you did NOT vote for status quo, please also try to provide some counter-balance suggestions. Lessons learned from balance tweaks are a counter balance is almost always needed.
If you're voting for all 5 changes, well then you better suggest a good counterbalance or expect a big nerf bat somewhere. No one likes it when Kwok gets too nerf happy...

[Consti255]

voted for a speed buff and the cost should stay.
I think the only real issue i have with it that this thing is slow as balls and dies almost 95% of the time to AT infnatry, while it even has a bigger chance to bounce a zook.
As Redgaarden mentioned, you pay for the top MG and the already equiped skirts.

I am still for a change to overall medium costs, when it comes to fuel. Especially the Shermans in armor doc, since 35fuel is just rediculous for a M4 which later even gets its high ammo HE costs removed.
But thats a different topic.

[tarakancheg]

I am for any buff to pz4 except the speed buff because with mg42 suppression this tank will be uncatchable by any infantry even with Sprint. HP buff combined with TC and tank vet 3-4 may make pz4 into a bullet sponge that can tank a couple of bazooka shots and a 76 pen on top of that. Voting for J and H cost reduction F2 is fine.

[Warhawks97]

I am for any buff to pz4 except the speed buff because with mg42 suppression this tank will be uncatchable by any infantry even with Sprint. HP buff combined with TC and tank vet 3-4 may make pz4 into a bullet sponge that can tank a couple of bazooka shots and a 76 pen on top of that. Voting for J and H cost reduction F2 is fine.

Agreed (at least in terms of MP cost. Fuel cost shouldnt get even lower for any tank).

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

I voted for the acceleration buff as its slowness is the main reason for death most of the time. Not only by zooks, but in tank warfare as well. Shermans can easily drive back and save when they get their gun destroyed with the first shot. Pz IVH on the other hand cannot kite shermans and always dies if doesn't get to hit first. That's why in 76mm vs Panzer 4 H scenario I always feel more confident with Sherman as I can dictate when to engage and retreat if I see that the odds are against me.

HP is still an issue, due to the small amount the unit is not viable late game, as 90mm\17p always oneshot or do a crit. But with better mobility it at least will be a decent mid game unit.

[MEFISTO]

I vote for price reduction, Redgarden gave us a good idea about what would be the price. When you take in consideration, this price reduction comes after 5 cp and they are in a different branch cp unlock, what means that some players will prefer rush Panthers and not go for cheaper PIV H so panzer for still will be like 470 and like 55.
At the other hand, If a player decide to go for a strong mid game and spam medium tanks, It will be up to him to use those 3 cp in price reduction and spam PIV j and H in this case PIV H would cost 450 pm and like 50 fuel, the price is still higher than PIV j.

[Warhawks97]

I voted for the acceleration buff as its slowness is the main reason for death most of the time. Not only by zooks, but in tank warfare as well. Shermans can easily drive back and save when they get their gun destroyed with the first shot. Pz IVH on the other hand cannot kite shermans and always dies if doesn't get to hit first. That's why in 76mm vs Panzer 4 H scenario I always feel more confident with Sherman as I can dictate when to engage and retreat if I see that the odds are against me.

Where can i vote for acceleration? Devs should add this to the vote options as well instead of speed increase. the speed is not the problem actually. Its not far away from a normal sherman, but it takes while to get there. Thats one thing we could work on perhaps. However, iirc the acceleration of M10 and M18 without using flank speed stuff is just slightly better. I think its 1,3 for the IV vs 1,7 for the light TD´s. So we might screw this balance a bit.

HP is still an issue, due to the small amount the unit is not viable late game, as 90mm\17p always oneshot or do a crit. But with better mobility it at least will be a decent mid game unit.

The vast Majority of tanks has 636 HP. Shermans, Firefly i think as well... 76 got upped to 700 due to being top tier tank in most US docs and to compensate for the power Schrecks have and giving it enough durability to not instantly explode by whatever shoots at them. Overall my impression is that panzer Iv survives overall more battlefield combat actions than any sherman does which mainly survive due to smoke and better mobility.
And as said, the IV H from TS doc has even 650 HP instead of 636 used by BK doc H version.

keep in mind that all 17 pdr tanks are either super squishy as well and very specialised. In case of the Firefly you can take advantage of its slow reload. The 90 mm tanks are the same + they are expensive as fuck while being also super squishy. When the H gets cheaper a loss will hurt less. And the J variant is already doing very well in simply overwhelming 17 pdr defenses by sheer numbers.

[kwok]

Where can i vote for acceleration? Devs should add this to the vote options as well instead of speed increase. the speed is not the problem actually. Its not far away from a normal sherman, but it takes while to get there. Thats one thing we could work on perhaps. However, iirc the acceleration of M10 and M18 without using flank speed stuff is just slightly better. I think its 1,3 for the IV vs 1,7 for the light TD´s. So we might screw this balance a bit.

Updated speed to acceleration. That was our intent and I think everyone's intent on vote here.

[idliketoplaybetter]

Voting for F2 price reduction. PZ4 H is reliable unit, nor price or speed is the issue in my eyes, just occasional gameplay situation u may end up with by the time it is available.
Making F2 cheaper, will reduce stress on the player encounter for the M4/76 rush and losing it, will be less punishable, as if used properly, F2 can maintain ground up until u banked additional Fuel and res for another T3 unit. Although again, unsure how specifically MP is a proplem in public eyes, as it was always the Fuel itself.
You mostly always have enough MP for ATgun but never to tech up or use more T3 units or spare Puma to build. E8 comes out and ur trapped between the late tech up for heavy tanks or heavy AT equipment.

This is exactly the stage of the game you decide to Rush for T4 and/or not to risk F2.

Making PZ4 H faster and more agile, will bring us to another mid game almost Panther. I believe it was the case already years ago..

[kwok]

We'd need to discuss counter balances too. It makes sense this comes up as a topic because the Panzer H is hardly used. However, there's no doubt that blitz doc is one of the most popular docs right now and has a decent win rate when paired with Luft. My personal assessment is because Blitz provides really great early to mid game carry potential and luft picks up the middle to late preventing the obvious Pershing counter. Game ends before full game is played. Buffing the Panzer H will only solidify that synergy even more and these already popular docs will only be MORE popular.

Blitz doc is THE most popular 1v1 doctrine because its early game is unparalleled. In higher level games, winning the early game and getting map control best ensures a victory compared to other doctrines that need to wait for their powerspikes. Just as before, any buff to Panzer H solidifies that strategy even more and we'll have a wave of players asking for Allied buffs to make THOSE early games stronger (e.g. the hyper carry assault engineers right now).

One thing I ask is to think about not just the improvements the changes would make but the disruptions that would happen. Think of counter balance ideas.

[Walderschmidt]

I'd take a different tack.

Reduced cost unlock would do two things.

1) Reduce MP cost to 500, not 525.
2) Give free AP/HE ammo upgrade.

Still thinking about possible implications, just wanted to post my idea before I forgot it.

Wald

[MEFISTO]

We'd need to discuss counter balances too. It makes sense this comes up as a topic because the Panzer H is hardly used. However, there's no doubt that blitz doc is one of the most popular docs right now and has a decent win rate when paired with Luft. My personal assessment is because Blitz provides really great early to mid game carry potential and luft picks up the middle to late preventing the obvious Pershing counter. Game ends before full game is played. Buffing the Panzer H will only solidify that synergy even more and these already popular docs will only be MORE popular.

Blitz doc is THE most popular 1v1 doctrine because its early game is unparalleled. In higher level games, winning the early game and getting map control best ensures a victory compared to other doctrines that need to wait for their powerspikes. Just as before, any buff to Panzer H solidifies that strategy even more and we'll have a wave of players asking for Allied buffs to make THOSE early games stronger (e.g. the hyper carry assault engineers right now).

One thing I ask is to think about not just the improvements the changes would make but the disruptions that would happen. Think of counter balance ideas.

Even if price is reduced a bit, some players still will choose to rush the Panther instead of use 3 more CP and make panzer H even more cheaper.
PIV H price is ridiculous for what it offers, I am not saying it needs a weapon buff or armor, we don’t need another Panther, it is just its price compare to same kind in others factions is meh

[CGarr]

Voted status quo since "other" wasn't an option. Pz4 H/J/F2 performance is fine as-is when it comes to tank vs tank combat. Pz4 F2's are a bit difficult to use after the HE and 76mm changes, as kiting inf is much more costly in terms of muni since you often need multiple shots to push them away (especially later in the game), and fighting a 76mm sherman is now a pretty even gamble, despite the F2 being more specialized to fight tanks than inf by virtue of its lack of a roof MG. The Pz4 H/Js are in a similar boat, being even more impacted by these issues due to their cost.

Pz4 roof MGs currently feel pretty lackluster against anything beefier than riflemen, especially when compared to a 50 cal. Buffing them against inf would make the Pz4's a much more attractive option. Additionally, if it is possible to add a roof MG (either as an upgrade or by default) for the P4 F2, I could see that helping a lot in the absence of a full revision of medium tank pricing/performance vs inf. I don't remember if that would need a new model or not, though.



<<Off-Topic but somewhat related>>

I'd rather see mediums get price increases across the board, along with an HE nerf revert and more harsh vision nerfs. They shouldn't be so cheap and they shouldn't be as weak against inf as they are currently. A lot of medium tanks don't feel like tanks right now, their firepower is super underwhelming against inf (excluding AA tanks, 75mm shermans, and stubby 75mm Pz4s) and their survivability obviously isn't anything to write home about due to their small HP pools (compared to heavies) and often mediocre mobility. As such, many like the Pz4 H/J don't have much purpose.

IMO, all medium tanks should be extremely strong against inf (with HE tanks being the most cost efficient in terms of muni), while also being a large investment and having terrible vision range (even when stationary) to prevent them from being self sufficient. Medium tanks in general should be the strongest frontline units in your roster in terms of raw firepower against inf, while requiring the most support. Even the less specialized mediums should shred inf, HE tanks should just do it without having to spend muni every shot. Their cost should reflect this. Right now, mediums are cheap, but they are often skipped or used very minimally (excluding the US ones, as those are actually threatening to inf). Many players seem to only build a few mediums before switching over to exclusively using heavies once unlocked (unless heavies are not available).

With that being said, unsupported army should be extremely vulnerable to flanking. Right now, that just isn't the case. You will pretty much always see enemy units coming and have time to react, so flanking without 2 units is extremely difficult against someone that is paying attention. The recent vision changes were a step in the right direction, but I think it could be lowered a bit further.

Overall, I'd like to echo what Hawks said in the other thread (viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4714). This is a medium tank issue, not a Pz4 issue. We can keep doing these band-aid changes until the cows come home, or we can just do a proper revision of medium tank costs and possibly revert some of the recent nerfs.

If anyone has thoughts on this, please don't respond in this thread. Bring it to the thread linked below (or create a new one) so that this one can stay on topic (Pz4 changes):

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4220

[Krieger Blitzer]

Haven't voted, not sure what to pick.

Though, honestly i don't think any tweaks are needed for Pz4, except that the performance of the 37mm AT guns need to be checked.. since as mentioned before, it might be over-performing.

Moreover, i also don't think there are any issues with mediums overall.. so i call for no changes.

[Consti255]

I am for any buff to pz4 except the speed buff because with mg42 suppression this tank will be uncatchable by any infantry even with Sprint. HP buff combined with TC and tank vet 3-4 may make pz4 into a bullet sponge that can tank a couple of bazooka shots and a 76 pen on top of that. Voting for J and H cost reduction F2 is fine.

I wouldnt say so.
The M4 has a more deadlier roof MG, is faster and also has the supression ability, while beeing a hell lot cheaper.
Sure, its CP less and has a weaker AT gun, but we are talking about Inf counterbalance right?

I agree here with dicky, Mediums are underpriced right now when it comes to fuel costs.
They should slap, but also cost. Right now its the same pattern all over again.
The rush against each other who can bring out the fastest medium (which is basicly really fast since they are so dirty cheap). After the first mediums leaves the factory, most likely you gonna transition into heavier or more beefy tanks. Only if its an even game!! Just to be clear here.

Aswell the CP costs. I dont wanna start that debate again, but i think it plays a big part in the overall medium balance.

[CGarr]

Aswell the CP costs. I dont wanna start that debate again, but i think it plays a big part in the overall medium balance.

Prob best to just link the relevant threads in case people want to discuss. I'll look for the CP change ones after work.