Panzer IV H

[MEFISTO]

Red suggested 480-500MP, the production unlock drops that by 25MP and 10F so we'd get to 455-475MP 55F per H while J is 410MP 45F - is that difference big enough to make people still consider getting the J over the H version?

I think Red suggestion goes in the right direction, Any ways this mass production unlock cost 3 more CP to get and they are in a different CP unlock branch, making players don’t go for it and just keep rushing panthers, so it will up to the player to play a cheaper medium tank H mid game or, keep its higher PIV H price and just keep rushing panthers, that will lead to more use of the PIV J and stugs in general.
Also after seeing the HP it would be nice to have similar HP as Sherman, any ways PIV H still will cost more and can be bully by any faster tank because its mobility.

the HP increase to the shermans were done so that it operates between the Panzer Iv and Panthers. As i said, shemans facing way more potential threats to which it dies quickly than Panzer Iv´s usually do+ shermans is most of the time the best tank allied can get. Panzer IV´s do not need to match shermans in every aspect. Thats not what they are supposed to. The only issue people had are the high cost of over 500 MP even after mass-production upgrade. In terms of Tankiness they are doing very well. More HP will just add more frustration to the bazooka use and forcing M10 rushes even more. The HP difference mainly has an impact on how well they can surivive handheld AT weapons. And despite the slightly higher sherman HP pool, the Panzer IV afterall has an edge when it comes to handheld AT resistance.
The TS tank IV H and J version also have 650 instead of 636 HP. So the HP difference is small and both require too shots to kill each other since their gun damage is max 600 anyways.

Yep, you maybe right about HP, that makes sense, but I still feel this PIV so weak vs any race tank that can hit and run because its mobility ( acceleration) really sucks, specially vs hellcat. But as I said Red suggestion goes in the right direction.

[Warhawks97]

Panzer IV was not known for its mobility, esspecially not the overweight H/J variants.

So what we got? The Panzer Iv´s in general are well armored, have a gun capable to take out so far any target except for a very few, two have a top mount MG and H skirts by default. If you look at the pure performance when in conbat, the stats are among the best of its class. Mobility is a thing that puts a burden on it, but in return dont have to fear as many guns/Handheld AT as shermans have to which usually have to rely purely on their speed unlike panzer IV H and J´s. since the J is doing very well its job, the only real issue i see with the H is their Mp cost, but thats all.

So before we end up creating again a super medium tank with armor, HP, firepower and mobility, lets just focus on one thing (MP cost) and see how it works out.


Edit:
Watch from 4 H 38 min 52 seconds onwards. That tank IV H stands against a 76 sherman, Tanking several zooks from AT inf nearby and still get away after being penetrated from a zook and probably a 76 gun shot as it seems. So for anyone asking for HP boost, mobility boost etc. to get in pair with shermans again, watch this first. Dropping cost while adding HP and mobility of a sherman would create a monster at spamming prices that has literally no drawbacks. This is an experience ive been making many times over and over and can be seen in multiple yt vids already if you keep watching Tarakanchegs and Tigers channels.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRhSWUIl_sQ

[MEFISTO]

Panzer IV was not known for its mobility, esspecially not the overweight H/J variants.

So what we got? The Panzer Iv´s in general are well armored, have a gun capable to take out so far any target except for a very few, two have a top mount MG and H skirts by default. If you look at the pure performance when in conbat, the stats are among the best of its class. Mobility is a thing that puts a burden on it, but in return dont have to fear as many guns/Handheld AT as shermans have to which usually have to rely purely on their speed unlike panzer IV H and J´s. since the J is doing very well its job, the only real issue i see with the H is their Mp cost, but thats all.

So before we end up creating again a super medium tank with armor, HP, firepower and mobility, lets just focus on one thing (MP cost) and see how it works out.

To be honest any 76mm Sherman perform really good vs any PIV H, I don’t see any advantage for the PIV neither mobility main gun performance or 50call vs mg, and as I said hellcat easily bully a PIV. Also it would be nice to know why HQ 37mm for some reason is easily penetrating this PIV, as well axis 37mm doing the same to Sherman. Shouldn’t happen in both cases.

[Red]

Personally, something I am still a bit struggelling with is why the Panzer IV cost reduction for Blitzkrieg only affects the H version. If it would also effect the other variants (not necessarily to the same degree), then it would be easy to still keep the cost difference between F/J/H material enough to make a difference.
Alternatively, one could think about moving the Panzer IV J out of Blitzkrieg and to a different doctrine (e.g. I would love to have it in the Def Doc with a CP unlock between the two Jagdpanzer IV).
Hence, I believe there are numerous solutions for the narrowing cost-gap between Panzer IV J and H.

PS: The MP suggestion came from Redgaarden, not me, so all credit to him!

[Warhawks97]

Personally, something I am still a bit struggelling with is why the Panzer IV cost reduction for Blitzkrieg only affects the H version. If it would also effect the other variants (not necessarily to the same degree), then it would be easy to still keep the cost difference between F/J/H material enough to make a difference.
Alternatively, one could think about moving the Panzer IV J out of Blitzkrieg and to a different doctrine (e.g. I would love to have it in the Def Doc with a CP unlock between the two Jagdpanzer IV).
Hence, I believe there are numerous solutions for the narrowing cost-gap between Panzer IV J and H.

PS: The MP suggestion came from Redgaarden, not me, so all credit to him!

Once this was the case. However the J at that time dropped from 450 mp to iirc 380 mp and 35 fuel or less even. It was just ridiculous. So we decided to give the J a middle ground cost. So it's cheap by default since it is a mass production version by its intention.
Currently the H is unlocked earlier (2CP) but the J is cheap by default requiring 3 CP in total. The H is cheaper available first after 5 CP in total. The J comes later but is earlier cheaper.

[Redgaarden]

To be honest any 76mm Sherman perform really good vs any PIV H, I don’t see any advantage for the PIV neither mobility main gun performance or 50call vs mg, and as I said hellcat easily bully a PIV. Also it would be nice to know why HQ 37mm for some reason is easily penetrating this PIV, as well axis 37mm doing the same to Sherman. Shouldn’t happen in both cases.

For the H you pay for the extra armor and machine gun compared to F2. Those two things dont really help against enemy tanks. The F2 is build pretty much solely for anti tank and is pretty cost efficient.

I dont see how hellcat can bully pz4 when pz4 has a 50% chance of just one shotting the hellcat while the hellcat only has 5% to one shot the pz4.

37mm from US has higher pen than axis variants due to worse anti infantry capabilities. Is gameplay reason

The pz4 has some pretty weak frontal armor compared to a sherman, 50mm flat turret armor with even weaker cheeks for the pz4 while, sherman has 60mm turret ring, and 90-140mm on other parts of the turret depending on which variant. Is the "realistic version"

Panzer IV was not known for its mobility, esspecially not the overweight H/J variants.

Think the pz4 has better Hp/t ratio than sherman due to its lower weight.

Issue with the hp. The only thing extra hp is going to do is let it maybe survive a shot from a higher calliber IF you have a TC with vet 3 in it.
It would be a nice alternative against fireflies but I think fireflies are weak enough without an extra counter towards them. And since the only thing a firefly is actually useful against is shooting pz4 it would render it even more useless than it already is.

[kwok]

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4717

[MEFISTO]

To be honest any 76mm Sherman perform really good vs any PIV H, I don’t see any advantage for the PIV neither mobility main gun performance or 50call vs mg, and as I said hellcat easily bully a PIV. Also it would be nice to know why HQ 37mm for some reason is easily penetrating this PIV, as well axis 37mm doing the same to Sherman. Shouldn’t happen in both cases.

For the H you pay for the extra armor and machine gun compared to F2. Those two things dont really help against enemy tanks. The F2 is build pretty much solely for anti tank and is pretty cost efficient.

I dont see how hellcat can bully pz4 when pz4 has a 50% chance of just one shotting the hellcat while the hellcat only has 5% to one shot the pz4.

37mm from US has higher pen than axis variants due to worse anti infantry capabilities. Is gameplay reason

The pz4 has some pretty weak frontal armor compared to a sherman, 50mm flat turret armor with even weaker cheeks for the pz4 while, sherman has 60mm turret ring, and 90-140mm on other parts of the turret depending on which variant. Is the "realistic version"

Panzer IV was not known for its mobility, esspecially not the overweight H/J variants.

Think the pz4 has better Hp/t ratio than sherman due to its lower weight.

Issue with the hp. The only thing extra hp is going to do is let it maybe survive a shot from a higher calliber IF you have a TC with vet 3 in it.
It would be a nice alternative against fireflies but I think fireflies are weak enough without an extra counter towards them. And since the only thing a firefly is actually useful against is shooting pz4 it would render it even more useless than it already is.

When I said hellcat can bully any panze IV is because hellcat mobility, can shoot and move back safely because is fast ( That is fine, I actually love it from hellcat)

[rappatix]

Is it possible to move the different tanks to different doctrines?? For example, some doc (s) can ONLY build F2 and H while some other doc (s) can ONLY get F2 + J.

[tarakancheg]

Is it possible to move the different tanks to different doctrines?? For example, some doc (s) can ONLY build F2 and H while some other doc (s) can ONLY get F2 + J.

Excuse me, but why do you want to do this and in which doctrines?

[Warhawks97]

Is it possible to move the different tanks to different doctrines?? For example, some doc (s) can ONLY build F2 and H while some other doc (s) can ONLY get F2 + J.

thats something i thought about as well many times. Sometimes its not necessary to have various units in one doc with the same purpose.

Excuse me, but why do you want to do this and in which doctrines?

BK: H
Prop: J
Def: F2

TS: H
Luft: J
SE: J or F2

[Consti255]

Is it possible to move the different tanks to different doctrines?? For example, some doc (s) can ONLY build F2 and H while some other doc (s) can ONLY get F2 + J.

Excuse me, but why do you want to do this and in which doctrines?

I think its quite simple, just no overfilling some unit rosters.

[MEFISTO]

Strongly against removing any PIV from the BK doctrine, especially because PIV H is too expensive, this change will lead players to use only Stugs in bk doctrine. Just a reminder. BK doctrine late game got NERF when Panther HP got reduced. BK mid-game should not be NERF by any means.