Unit statistics

[OConnor]

I have played BK for about two years now. Maybe I am just not good at it but I am really getting frustrated about some game mechanisms and ballancing. I don't want to go into detail because I know from reading the posts in here that there are many people with many different opinions. Especially when it comes to ballancing.

WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO SEE:

A document that lists every single unit with its statistics. That would help everyone to have an objective source to compare units. This document would need to contain COSTS, HIT POINTS, ARMOR VALUES, RANGE OF WEAPONS, DAMAGE, RANGE OF SIGHT, SPEED, RATE OF FIRE, ARMOR PENETRATION VALUES, SPECIAL ABILITIES. It would also have to explain abilities and buffs. What kind of bonus does the british liutenant confer to the units in range exactly? What does the PE, WM and US counterparts do exactly? How does experience change stats?
Once there was a very nice data base available online but it was for the original CoH and later Tales of Valor only.
A database for BK needs to be updated by the BK Mod team with each patch.

At the moment the whole game seems really broken in terms of ballancing. This is a subjective perception, I guess, and it depends on which faction you favour. A detailed document like the one I would like to see would help everyone to see how everything fits together (or not!).
Things like experiecing a Pz IV with the stubby 75mm cannon one hitting a cromwell cruiser tank from the front at a considerable distance without special ammunition. The same situation but the other way around worked for a standard Sherman one hitting a Tiger with veterancy levels! And then, seeing that the command truck enhancement of the british RE doc doesn't improve the population cap like stated, doesn't help building trust in the integrity of the game mechanisms. Those are just examples. There are many, many more things that seem really odd.

[JimQwilleran]

I agree with you that such a document would be a nice source of knowledge. But I disagree that the game is broken in terms of balancing. 2vs2 and 3vs3 games are currently very well balanced, and the only problems that we find and post here are details, bugs, and/or realism stuff, rarely some dramatic changes .

Things like experiecing a Pz IV with the stubby 75mm cannon one hitting a cromwell cruiser tank from the front at a considerable distance without special ammunition. The same situation but the other way around worked for a standard Sherman one hitting a Tiger with veterancy levels! And then, seeing that the command truck enhancement of the british RE doc doesn't improve the population cap like stated, doesn't help building trust in the integrity of the game mechanisms.

Yes, there are things that are not more or less ok, but they are not surely game breaking. Everything depends on random factors, for example there is 5% chance of "hitting ammo in the tank" which causes even KT to die after 1 shot from Shreman. I dont argue if it realistic or not, but it surely makes this game more entertaining imo .

I understand that you ask for "detailed" information about bonuses etc. but I think that most of bk player of 2 years know what bonuses Lt gives (generally basing on their experience)

Anyway I support the idea of database, but in the same time I already know the answer (I tried to find it to quote it but I can't remember where it was). One of devs said that even if we post general values of penetration, armor, speed etc. there are MANY other factors that combined are the only true image of units capabilities. In other words even if Sherman's penetration is X, there are 5 other factors that affect it. You still think it's X, but in reality it's ó or even ź with tank commander, while driving on road and using smoke cover .

[Devilfish]

A database for BK needs to be updated by the BK Mod team with each patch.

Man, we are grateful that there are any developers at all, releasing patches from time to time, killing bugs or two, changing thing or three. So we are not in a position to demand some databases and guides and shit, though it would be awesome.

And btw if you are too interested, you can always check it with modding tools the way the modders are actually changing things .

[MarKr]

There are several problems with what you demand. One of them is what JimQwilleran wrote - pretty much this:

One of devs said that even if we post general values of penetration, armor, speed etc. there are MANY other factors that combined are the only true image of units capabilities.

Also:
COSTS - you can see that in game but would be easy to list
HP - would probably be as easy as the one above
ARMOR VALUES - impossible to list since nothing like that exists in CoH. Each unit has some "armor type", but each weapon has defined buffs and nerfs against each armor type, so you would actually need to list all the values of ALL the weapons in game against each armor type = thousands on lines of stats that will be incomprehensible to most people
RANGE OF WEAPONS - usually fixed for given weapon type (tank canons have usually the same range, AT movable gus, small arms...)
DAMAGE - there are base values of minimum and maximum damage and the game randomly selects from this range a damage value if the shot penetrates. However there are many applied ways of multiplying the damage (either increasing or decreasing) which, generaly speaking, change based on on what target type you are shooting at. So one weapon can deal 500 damage to one unit while 0.0001 to other.
RANGE OF SIGHT - again, basic value is set but can be boosted or nerfed (usually by abilities or moving penalties)
SPEED - this one is usually not modified very much, but also canbe in some cases - especially for many light vehicles the speed increases with the first veterancy level by 25%
RATE OF FIRE - this one is again quite hard to list. Some weapons (like tank guns) fire a single shot after which they reload (so the RoF is basically defined by how long the reloading sequence takes - but stil there are aim times and other stuff that can tweak it). Other weapons (like smgs/mgs..) fire a burst, which takes some time, then there is a defined delay before another burst and then there is defined after how many bursts the weapon reloads (usually the delay betwen bursts is shorter than reloading) - but then there are multipliers that change the reload time based on how far is the target...just again - it's not just one value.
ARMOR PENETRATION VALUES - similar to damage - basic value differs at different distances and then the penetration is affected by armor type, abilities (like AP ammo) and possibly other factors.

It's not that we're trying to keep the stats hidden from the community, it's just so complex that listing these things would take several months of a full time job and that kind of free time is something we don't have.

[Warhawks97]

A forum member in old froum posted some stats of weapons. For example he listed all rifles with their basic damage per bullet and accuracy. But there is also aim time etc.

Pen stats should actually be more easy. Each gun has distant multipliers (pen lose over distance) and then a TT (Target table) against each type of enemie vehicle. The TT shows the basic pen chance at point blank against any tank or vehicle and this TT factor is muliplied with the distant muliplier.



ABout your Tank IV story. The stubby Tank IV is overperforming a lot. It has 30-50 mm armor and even basic shermans with 75 mm would penetrate them but here even the 76 mm guns has like 50:50 chance to bounce or pen it on max range. Stubby tank IV is one of the most weird units in game for sure.

[JimQwilleran]

ABout your Tank IV story. The stubby Tank IV is overperforming a lot. It has 30-50 mm armor and even basic shermans with 75 mm would penetrate them but here even the 76 mm guns has like 50:50 chance to bounce or pen it on max range. Stubby tank IV is one of the most weird units in game for sure.

Stubby Panzer IV is over performing while guns of Stuarts, Grehounds etc. are underperforming also with too long reload time.

[Warhawks97]

ABout your Tank IV story. The stubby Tank IV is overperforming a lot. It has 30-50 mm armor and even basic shermans with 75 mm would penetrate them but here even the 76 mm guns has like 50:50 chance to bounce or pen it on max range. Stubby tank IV is one of the most weird units in game for sure.

Stubby Panzer IV is over performing while guns of Stuarts, Grehounds etc. are underperforming also with too long reload time.

The inside of stuart tank was "uncomfortable" and unpractical. Its true and someone told me that in old forum and so it has long reload time (realism). What he didnt consider at that time that 57 mm pak (which has no uncomfortable space ) had a reload time of an elephant which had to load bulky heavy 88 rounds . That got fixed by wolf.


For the stuart i would simply prefer a cost reduction to 300 mp and 30 fuel and avaialble with motor pool (it requires upgraded production currently and thus available when axis get the Puma with 50 mm and not even to mention PE´s 28 mm vehicle which kills stuarts easily and being thus completely usless again. The units it could conter (mainly vehicles with 20 mm kwk) are often already on a killing spree. The speed and firepower of that tank is very poor and can bounce off from pumas somtimes. The Greyhound is OK just overpriced. A reduction to 340 mp/25 fuel and slightly increased rof could help (note that 340/25 would still be without the armored skirts).

[MarKr]

Pen stats should actually be more easy. Each gun has distant multipliers (pen lose over distance) and then a TT (Target table) against each type of enemie vehicle. The TT shows the basic pen chance at point blank against any tank or vehicle and this TT factor is muliplied with the distant muliplier.

Not exactely. In the weapon's file, the pentration table shows BASIC values at each distance and each of these is further multiplied by TT (according to what distance it is in). So if the basic penetration table is something like 0.9/0.8/0.7/0.6 and TT is 0.85 and you attack at max range then the calculation is not 0.9*0.6*0.85, but simply 0.6*0.85. orat short range it is 0.9*0.85.
However units can simply have "received_penetration_multiplier" which simply tweaks the penetration further, no matter what weapon fires at it. Further some abilities tweak penetration, as well as TCs, also if a weapon has AoE the penetration chance goes down with bigger distance from the centre of the blast - it is more complex than just "goes through armor or not"

[Warhawks97]

Pen stats should actually be more easy. Each gun has distant multipliers (pen lose over distance) and then a TT (Target table) against each type of enemie vehicle. The TT shows the basic pen chance at point blank against any tank or vehicle and this TT factor is muliplied with the distant muliplier.

Not exactely. In the weapon's file, the pentration table shows BASIC values at each distance and each of these is further multiplied by TT (according to what distance it is in). So if the basic penetration table is something like 0.9/0.8/0.7/0.6 and TT is 0.85 and you attack at max range then the calculation is not 0.9*0.6*0.85, but simply 0.6*0.85. orat short range it is 0.9*0.85.
However units can simply have "received_penetration_multiplier" which simply tweaks the penetration further, no matter what weapon fires at it. Further some abilities tweak penetration, as well as TCs, also if a weapon has AoE the penetration chance goes down with bigger distance from the centre of the blast - it is more complex than just "goes through armor or not"

that what i meant. TT shows basic pen chance (in your sample 85%). Thats multiplied with the distant mulipliers for find out the chance to pen the target at the certain range. The first distant muliplier is always 1 (and not 0.9).

Some units have this i know and some upgrades. For example the easy eight sherman has a 0.85 muliplier which normal shermans do not have. Also sandbags and skirts add a muliplier. Taking as sample Tank IV vs sherman at max range is: 130% (TT)x 0.73 makes 95% chance to pen. VS e8 it would be 130% x 0.73= 95% and this multiplied again with 0.85 (e8 modifier/multiplier) which makes considerable 80,6% still.

[MarKr]

TT shows basic pen chance (in your sample 85%). Thats multiplied with the distant mulipliers for find out the chance to pen the target at the certain range. The first distant muliplier is always 1 (and not 0.9).

Well, technically speaking BASIC penetration values are those in the unit penetration table and TT and other stuff that changes it are modifiers But it doesn't change the outcome value, I just mention that to make it clear what I mean when I reffer to basic values and multipliers...

Technically speaking, all the modifiers stack and then they apply to the basic value. In case all of the modifiers are multiplicators, it doesn't matter since the outcome si the same but sometimes the modifier can be additive and then it matters

BTW: E8 has 0.82, which (at max range) makes the penetration chance of aproximately 78% .

However to return to the topic - if you wanted to list penetration of a gun, you would either need to give only the BASIC values at each range (which would be very misleading) OR you would need to give all the modifying values against all possible targets which would be a real sh*tload of work.

[Warhawks97]

BTW: E8 has 0.82, which (at max range) makes the penetration chance of aproximately 78% .

However to return to the topic - if you wanted to list penetration of a gun, you would either need to give only the BASIC values at each range (which would be very misleading) OR you would need to give all the modifying values against all possible targets which would be a real sh*tload of work.

Just to make it clear for others to avoid misinterpretations. The E8 0.82 modifier is for incoming fire. The 78% is the chance a tank IV has to penetrate the e8 at max range using basic rounds ( i was almost correct:P)


And yeah, it would be a lot. Still i am curious in some cases and in certain units. Mainly the 76 gun vs Tiger, Panther, Elephant, KT, JP, Jagdpanzer IV/70, JT, stupa Its the most common subject in topics eg 76 oneshots KT.

Then Tank IV vs churchills and Pershing and Jumbos.

Finally 17 pdr vs JT, elephant, KT etc

The basic TT against each unit and for each weapon the distant multipliers:P

[MarKr]

I'll PM you, since this is getting OT...

[Warhawks97]

I'll PM you, since this is getting OT...

OT? i am not used with that:D and what about others who would like to see?

[MarKr]

The topic was about making a list of general stats of all units. Talking about penetration chances of one particular unit against another one has something to do with the topic but doesn't exactely contribute in the global stats debate .

But if there's anyone out there interrested in bunch of calculations and some of my hypothesies (because this goes into critical hits and I don't fully understand those yet), I can post it here too .

[OConnor]

Wow, what a bunch of answers! Thank you guys for taking the time! Ok, those have been some interesting infos.
Of course I have a general understanding of what the units do. I know that a Lieutenant improves nearby infantry. I just would like to know in detail what those bonusses are and how they change with experience. And there are a LOT of details I would like to know, hence the original question.
I understand that it is a huge task to do such a database. I did not think it to be such an endeavour. Does somebody of you know this really cool database that was online until about two years ago? I can't remember the site's name, sadly. There, all the data had been given! ALL! All the basic data plus all the possible modifiers. It was quite a task to understand how everything worked together but it was really helpful.
With BK so much has changed so even if that site was still online I would not know which data was still right and which wasn't. I will try to find the site again. If I have it I will post the link here so maybe somebody is able to use it as a base. I have no clue about modding and I don't know any tools for it. Could somebody tell me which tool to use to see unit statistics, how to see the raw game data?#
Don't know if I am up to the task but I might give it a try.
Good to read that a lot of you people see those weird things in CoH/BK, too, that, for me, make it seem quite broken or at least too much chance driven. Still, despite all the frustration, there is so much fun in it.