RAF tanks

[Krieger Blitzer]

RE gets:
Firefly - Achilles - Comet - 76W Canadians - Tulips + all Churchills & of course fortified 17p emplacements.

RA gets:
Firefly - Churchill 6pdr (good at holding vs Pz4 & Stugs) - 76W Canadians - Canadian Zookas + normal 17p emplacements + HE Sherman.

RAF gets:
Achilles - Commando AT teams - airstrikes.

Luft gets:
Panther.D - Pz4.F2 - Marder 3 + Puma 75mm & Flak 88s + airstrikes.

AB Gets:
Hellcat - 76W & HE Shermans - 82nd + airstrikes & dropp-able 76 AT guns with crew air reinforce.



Now, looking at this.. it's a quick comparison of all CW docs & air docs with current RAF doc.

I gotta say, i really like the new Commando AT teams & SAS, but i highly suggest giving the Firefly back to RAF instead of faster airstrike cool-down unlock...

OR at least make the 75mm Sherman more useful in this doc.. RE gets Tulip on it & RA gets HE mode; yet RAF gets nothing special for this tank.. maybe give it Tulips in RAF too? It won't be OP because Tulips now have 75 range only.

[Warhawks97]

RE gets:
Firefly - Achilles - Comet - 76W Canadians - Tulips + all Churchills & of course fortified 17p emplacements.

RA gets:
Firefly - Churchill 6pdr (good at holding vs Pz4 & Stugs) - 76W Canadians - Canadian Zookas + normal 17p emplacements + HE Sherman.

RAF gets:
Achilles - Commando AT teams - airstrikes.

Luft gets:
Panther.D - Pz4.F2 - Marder 3 + Puma 75mm & Flak 88s + airstrikes.

AB Gets:
Hellcat - 76W & HE Shermans - 82nd + airstrikes & dropp-able 76 AT guns with crew air reinforce.



Now, looking at this.. it's a quick comparison of all CW docs & air docs with current RAF doc.

I gotta say, i really like the new Commando AT teams & SAS, but i highly suggest giving the Firefly back to RAF instead of faster airstrike cool-down unlock...

OR at least make the 75mm Sherman more useful in this doc.. RE gets Tulip on it & RA gets HE mode; yet RAF gets nothing special for this tank.. maybe give it Tulips in RAF too? It won't be OP because Tulips now have 75 range only.

agreed. At the very least Tulips use the same rockets the Typhoon Fighter fires: The RP-3 missile.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Ye, so it definitely fits RAF theme.

Damn, now that i think about it.. i am not asking for Firefly to be added back anymore...


just add Tulips for RAF doc, that would help & makes sense at the same time.

[MarKr]

RE gets:
Firefly - Achilles - Comet - 76W Canadians - Tulips + all Churchills & of course fortified 17p emplacements.

RA gets:
Firefly - Churchill 6pdr (good at holding vs Pz4 & Stugs) - 76W Canadians - Canadian Zookas + normal 17p emplacements + HE Sherman.

RAF gets:
Achilles - Commando AT teams - airstrikes.

Luft gets:
Panther.D - Pz4.F2 - Marder 3 + Puma 75mm & Flak 88s + airstrikes.

AB Gets:
Hellcat - 76W & HE Shermans - 82nd + airstrikes & dropp-able 76 AT guns with crew air reinforce.

RE doesn't get:
Some of the strongest infantry squads in the game, airstrikes nor "maphack".
But they do get:
Turtling chuurchills that are resistant to most guns of their tier

RA doesn't get:
Some of the strongest infantry squads in the game, airstrikes nor "maphack".
But they do get:
The best arty options in the game

AB isn't even the same faction so it has completely different faction-dynamics, but they also have:
Option to swap MP for ammo, options to drop vatious units and crewed weapon teams anywhere, drop smoke anywhere from the the HQ, High-critting infantry AT.

Luft isn't the same faction, it's not even the same side.

Point being that requesting a change because "look what tanks others have" while ignoring everything else the doctrines have and don't have doesn't make the request justified.

i highly suggest giving the Firefly back to RAF instead of faster airstrike cool-down unlock...

Therefore this a "no" from me.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Ye, i actually changed my mind already since i posted this (LOL) as i didn't even give it much thought to be honest.. so i can't really argue against what u mentioned. Therefore, a "no" at bringing back Firefly isn't all that bad to hear. (although it hurts my feelings a bit that it's coming from you )

Though, let me elaborate my viewpoint a bit more in details.
My thoughts started about this all after watching RAF getting stomped by Pz4 spam (later Panthers) in 2 games in the row.. here, it made me question the capability of RAF tanks.

For some reason, RAF gets no offensive tank at all apart from the Cromwell which u can use effectively in early game only, but would be deemed useless later.. whereas other air doctrines also have good inf & airstrikes, yet have access to offensive tanks such as Panther (Luft) & 76 Shermans (AB) along with good TDs as well.

So, on a serious note.. i feel like RAF is a bit left behind in terms of acessing offensive armor.
And now that i think about it.. i see that the 75mm Sherman was improved in RA doc as it received HE mode, and is already useful in RE doc thx to Tulips, yet.. it is unexplained how it is left useless in RAF doc on the other hand.

All in all, i think that giving Tulips to 75mm Sherman in RAF would be a much better idea.. so i wonder what others think about this.

[MarKr]

i feel like RAF is a bit left behind in terms of acessing offensive armor.

We can change the skin on Cromwells so that it has a big writing in the front saying "Axis have small dicks!"...would that be offensive enough?

[Redgaarden]

Dont see that Tulip or sherman is a good counter to pz4. You already have tetrarch for all your anti tank needs.

[Consti255]

Dont see that Tulip or sherman is a good counter to pz4. You already have tetrarch for all your anti tank needs.

i wish tetrachs would fullfill their job better with the little john adapter... It still needs to many shots to fight a P4.
You have to micro on WAY higher levels to make this thing work.
I never get this upgrade since it is simply not worth to spend ressoures for.

I personally have just 2 complains about the new RAF.

1. Tetrachs are to weak for its price with the little john

2. AT rifle commandos need to come back against light vehicle spam

[MarKr]

I kinda get your point in "Tetrarch vs medium tanks" but why can't you use Tetrarchs to counter light vehicles? They penetrate halftracks and armored cars even without the upgrade. Also why do you need Commandos with the AT rifle when you still have the normal BOYS squad?

[Krieger Blitzer]

Tetrach (2pdr) & Diamler are very weird in Bk Mod.
They deal as much damage as 6pdr, and take forever to reload (penetration is fine though).
Due to this long reload, they often lose vs Axis 37 & 28mm cars.

I would much prefer if their damage is lowered, in return.. 2s reload, becoming similar to the 28mm car, which is actually great vs Shermans as u can keep harassing them with ur speed and good penetration, takes u around 4 or 5 penetrative hits to kill a Sherman.

Tetrach should be same vs Pz4, but somehow currently.. it takes just 2 penetrative hits to kill Pz4, with whooping 7 sec reload, iirc.

That's another topic though.. let's focus on the proposed suggestion, i think adding Tulips for RAF is fair, as this would make the 75mm Sherman in this doctrine finally valuable.. as described in the other topic.

[Consti255]

Okay here a scenario which almost happens in everygame.

You wanna advance or take ground against the enemy with your comp out of commandos and the tetrach (+ little john).

The enemy builded a 20mm/puma call it what ever and holds your infantry at bae. The thing is that AT guns exists, even the small once penetrate the tetrach reliable. As well as the 20mm. So putting everything on one card is damn risky.
20mm just bleed you hard playing as RAF. Its not like AB where your units are cheaper and on top you can reinforce via air which is not possible with RAF. Dont forget the supply yard.
So when you killed 2-3 men from the commandos, even volksgrens should handle them and your push is over.
AT commandos on the other hand have smoke to break supression and more important are pretty tanky behind green cover with a big ampount of range to keep the vehicle at bae. AT rifles dont scale that well and AT rifle commandos were a blessing with the RAF captain nearby which can cloak aswell.

The only thing is see with RAF now after the update is light vehicle (aka 20mm) spam. I mean AT rifle commandos do exists already in the game files and just could be added back. I think noone would argue against such change.

[Consti255]

Tetrach should be same vs Pz4, but somehow currently.. it takes just 2 penetrative hits to kill Pz4, with whooping 7 sec reload, iirc.

Even with little johns you need atleast 3 or sometimes even 4 shots to kill a PIV.
I think it should be 3 shots at max.
Damage should be increase (with little john) and pen also increase overall. This things had insane penetration values and could even pen Tigers.
Just a historic aspect but even in the terms of gameplay, this upgrade isnt worth it at ALL.
Maybe even check the pen values for it since it bounce quite often on PIV H.

Why is this a different topic tiger?
It says RAF tanks and the tetrach is a big part of it and could helpt to fight heavy PIV spam.

[MarKr]

Tetrach (2pdr) & Diamler are very weird in Bk Mod.
They deal as much damage as 6pdr, and take forever to reload (penetration is fine though).
Due to this long reload, they often lose vs Axis 37 & 28mm cars.

I would much prefer if their damage is lowered, in return.. 2s reload, becoming similar to the 28mm car, which is actually great vs Shermans as u can keep harassing them with ur speed and good penetration, takes u around 4 or 5 penetrative hits to kill a Sherman.

Tetrach should be same vs Pz4, but somehow currently.. it takes just 2 penetrative hits to kill Pz4, with whooping 7 sec reload, iirc.

That's another topic though.. let's focus on the proposed suggestion, i think adding Tulips for RAF is fair, as this would make the 75mm Sherman in this doctrine finally valuable.. as described in the other topic.

The 2 pdr on tetrarch has the reload time of 3-4 seconds (so 3.5 on average), deals 40-65 damage per hit (further changed against different targets - 140-227 vs light vehicles, 200-325 vs PIV).

28mm gun on armored car reloads in 3 seconds (so on average just 0.5 sec faster than Tetrarch), deals 30-40 damage per hit (further changed against different targets - 105-140 vs light vehicles, 150-200 vs Shermans)

Is the 0.5 second really so much of a difference in reload time to say it "takes forever to reload"? Because I would bet many people wouldn't even notice 0.5 second difference. The Tetrarch takes on average half a second longer to reload but also deals more damage and with the upgrade has much better penetration than the 28mm car (upgrade also adds about 10% accuracy).

There is a difference in cost (360MP 25F for Tetrarchs vs 230MP 10F for the 28mm PE car) but the Tetrarch also has a bit more HP (320 vs 280), it has a turret so it is easier to shoot on the move and also hull MG which provides some protection from infantry with no cover (not much but still...).

[Consti255]

can we maybe up the damage and penetartion from the tetrach with the adapter for a more significant price increase ?

Say like 360MP and 35F after the upgrade ? While the upgrade costs stay the same ?

[Krieger Blitzer]

The 2 pdr on tetrarch has the reload time of 3-4 seconds (so 3.5 on average), deals 40-65 damage per hit (further changed against different targets - 140-227 vs light vehicles, 200-325 vs PIV).

28mm gun on armored car reloads in 3 seconds (so on average just 0.5 sec faster than Tetrarch), deals 30-40 damage per hit (further changed against different targets - 105-140 vs light vehicles, 150-200 vs Shermans)

Is the 0.5 second really so much of a difference in reload time to say it "takes forever to reload"? Because I would bet many people wouldn't even notice 0.5 second difference. The Tetrarch takes on average half a second longer to reload but also deals more damage and with the upgrade has much better penetration than the 28mm car (upgrade also adds about 10% accuracy).

There is a difference in cost (360MP 25F for Tetrarchs vs 230MP 10F for the 28mm PE car) but the Tetrarch also has a bit more HP (320 vs 280), it has a turret so it is easier to shoot on the move and also hull MG which provides some protection from infantry with no cover (not much but still...).

I remember we had a discussion about this back in 2018 and that's when i checked the values of Diamler, Tetrach (2pdr) & 6pdr guns.

Thx for including the values of the 28mm, but i was more comparing with the 6pdr.

So, let me speak about the 6pdr; as far as i can remember.. 6pdr deals around 375 damage, meaning that 2pdr with a damage of 200-325 (just as u mentioned) nearly has the same damage as 6pdr.

Also, i remember the reload times back then for Tetrach were 4 to 5 seconds, and 5 to 6.5 seconds for Diamler, despite sharing the same gun.. the Diamler reloaded slower.

So, unless these values were tweaked ever since then (maybe following our old discussion.. but can't remember exactly when) the Tetrach would have 4 to 5 seconds reload still.. but as i said, they might have actually been tuned down a bit at some point.

All in all, i would reduce the damage of 2pdr guns to be around 175-250 while making sure that all 2pdr vehicles have the same reload of 3.5 seconds maximum.

@Consti
My aim isn't to allow light vehicles countering medium ones more reliably, so i am against flat out buffing 2pdr any further... And from the other topic, i already know u agree on adding Tulips to RAF which are on the same tier as Pz4s so it makes more sense being a counter rather than 2pdr cannons. Not to mention Tulips won't only help vs Pz4 but also against other stuff when u get locked by AA defence.

[MarKr]

Also, i remember the reload times back then for Tetrach were 4 to 5 seconds, and 5 to 6.5 seconds for Diamler, despite sharing the same gun.. the Diamler reloaded slower.

So, unless these values were tweaked ever since then (maybe following our old discussion.. but can't remember exactly when) the Tetrach would have 4 to 5 seconds reload still.. but as i said, they might have actually been tuned down a bit at some point.

I think it got changed along with the general changes to reload times, where (in general) smaller guns were changed to reload faster than bigger guns.

Also, in general, AT gun teams reload faster than the same gun mounted on a vehicle. For the purpose of BK, 37mm, 28mm and 2 pounders are all considered the same category. 37mm guns reload in 3 - 3.5 seconds so in this case 2 pounder would reload faster than the AT gun, which would go against the general rule. So I would be against some pretty high RoF. Especially because this would also affect Daimlers cars, which would then lead to requests to do the same to the 28mm Armored car for PE which would mean do the same for the 28mm HT in Def doc.

My point with the stats was that you basically said "28mm car is OK so make 2pounders like the 28mm" but the stats already make the 2 pounders very similar, probably even better than the 28mm. So asking for further improvements is pretty much saysng "oh, I didn't know it was already as good as I asked for...well, let's make it even better anyway".

can we maybe up the damage and penetartion from the tetrach with the adapter for a more significant price increase ?

Say like 360MP and 35F after the upgrade ? While the upgrade costs stay the same ?

I am not too much in favor of this. If we up the cost it will pretty much a hybrid between 57mm and 76mm and with the cost of Tetrarch/Daimler, they would make some of the CW medium tanks obsolete.

The adapter didn't change the weapon calibre, only increased the shot's velocity and so the penetrative efficiency went up to about the efficiency of 6 pounders (57mm guns). This is rEaLism talk so it is more of a side-note than an argument, but I'm sure some people would bring it up.

We could give it something like a bit higher crit chances compared to unupgraded 2 pounder but just straight up damage and penetration boost is probably not gonna happen.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Well, ya.. changes for 2pdr are not why i created this topic or the other anyway, i am fine with current 2pdr guns.

The main purpose of the thread is to allow Tulips for 75mm Sherman in RAF doc, and so far no one seems to oppose the idea.

[Consti255]

Realsim side note: The pentration with the adapter wa arround 115mm of armor on a range of 500 yards. Its a pretty solid value i would say. There are cases where i knocked out Tigers. So it was a really potent gun and not taking that into account would be ignorant.

I read alot yesterday and what i came up with, was that the shot had overall much higher pen, but only the speical APCR round could be fired. Which means more pen less post pen damage for the crew inside the enemy tank.

So i think, a higer crit chance and penetration would be a really cool addition which can help you fighting vehicles and mediums!
If i understood it right, you can just buff a guns penetration in general right? Or can you change a gun against specific units?
If so, i would just asking for a penetration buff against units up to a PIV H/J and StuGs. Heavys would stay untouched.

Saying so, i think putting more tech or CP into the dotrinal design of the tetrach would be cool aswell. Its a unique unit which
is often not used to a big amout which actually is kinda sad. @Markr ever thought about some CP buffs for the tetrach overall?

[Krieger Blitzer]

Tetrach & Diamler is already potent vs Stug & Pz4 btw. And their damage is high enough vs armored cars.. and yes, they can take out Stug & Pz4 in 2 hits already.. that's more than enough. Keep in mind they are hard to hit with some guns, and are able to keep circling slower mediums.

Also, it's not ignorant to avoid taking into account such high penetrative values for 2pdr, otherwise we would allow the Ostwind with its 37mm flak cannon to destroy Cromwell & Shermans too as they realistically could... but this would be bad for game-play balance.

Remember also, Tetrach & 2pdr guns aren't RAF specific.. they are in all CW docs.
A buff to them mean buffing CW generally vs mediums.. and this is not what we want; other CW docs already have counters to Pz4 tanks.

[Consti255]

2pdr guns arent RAF specific. Tetrachs are, they are a really cool unit and deserve in my opinion better.
How about a CP little john adapter? So it justifys the buffs?
I still think some upgrades could be merged together in RAF. Like the radio triangle with the basic training (more vision for commandos). Aswell a proper SAS sabotage tree could be usefull to keep track over the tree from simply commandos and other infantry upgrades and one dedicated sabotage tree.

And no, even with the PzGr40 with wolfram the Ostwind wouldnt be able to pen a Cromwell or Sherman frontal.
It had arround 49mm pen. So since BK has just front armor and back armor it performs just right.

The little john had as i said arround 115mm of pen, which is more than double its pen power.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I didn't specify that they would pen them frontally, i said they would just pen them (generally) if it was more realistic (in rear at this case), but currently Ostwind don't pen them at all.. so - from a realistic point of view, not gameplay balance - if u were to speak about realistic pen values for little john, then u would have to acknowledge Ostwind currently is under-performing.. but again, that was just pure realism, and Ostwind was just an example.. but we aren't going down that path; therefore, i think Tetrach doesn't need any buff. It can already one-shot several HTs and armored cars with little john, and from gameplay perspective, that's enough.

Also, u seem not to realise how already effective Tetrach is vs Pz4s in-game already.. they DO pen & kill them in 2 hits currently, and are very dangerous vs turret-less Stugs when circled.

I honestly don't support any buff for Tetrach or 2pdr.

[Consti255]

they dont kill in 2 shots.

[Redgaarden]

There is a difference in cost (360MP 25F for Tetrarchs vs 230MP 10F for the 28mm PE car) but the Tetrarch also has a bit more HP (320 vs 280), it has a turret so it is easier to shoot on the move and also hull MG which provides some protection from infantry with no cover (not much but still...).

Price difference is quite huge 3 28mm are cheaper than 2 tetrarchs.
I can't think of anything that the tetrarch can survive that the 28mm can't. The important milestone to hitpoints is having over 400 hp or over 600 hp Since most guns either does up to 400 or up to 600 dmg.
The scout car doesn't require upgrades, has a way better ability and costs 37% less. or you can pay 56% more for a tetrarch that still has less of a chance of killing the scout car in a 1v1. I think the scout car can even turn faster than the Tetrach can turn its turret. Both units take 2 shots to kill each other and the scout car fires faster.

So what I'm saying is that the extra hitpoints doesn't actually make it any tankier.

So my question is what's the difference between Daimler and Tetrarch? one costs 300 mp while the other cost 360 and I haven't noticed any other difference between them. I would suggest lowering the cost of the Tetrach down to 300 and Tetrach glider down to 400mp.

If you compare them then scout car has better anti infantry thanks to its ability. Cheaper and both are comparable vs mediums tanks.

Tetrarch has a smoke ability that is overpriced and annoying to use since you have to fire it. And can't use it on the move.
So is it better to wait 2 seconds in which time you could already been out of harms way or do you use 2 seconds to let the enemy shoot you and then waste 30 muni on a smoke screen to have a chance of getting away.

I can't find a single redeeming feature of the tetrarch vs the scout car. The machine gun is useful in almost no circumstance. Having no turret is most often advantageous since when it starts firing, its back is already pointing at the best route of escape.

Tetrarch is still a good vehicle. 28mm is just amazing.

Edit: It has a coxial not hull mg.

[Warhawks97]

The 28 mm car is just stupidly cheap. I see them running around in groups to quickly battle down all enemies. And even when you lose one, your enemie usually lost always more. It became a real no brainer.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Price difference is quite huge 3 28mm are cheaper than 2 tetrarchs.
I can't think of anything that the tetrarch can survive that the 28mm can't.

i think the difference is rather in armor type.

The scout car is a scout car that dies to HMGs.
Tetrach is technically a light tank that doesn't die to HMGs, not even with HMG AP rounds active.