Beta Stormtroopers

[Consti255]

I need to test that change out so i have no real opinion right now, but what i can say is, that the HT should be untouched as it is. Why do you need to deploy the UAS out of the HT, when you can call them into a building AND build them in baracks? They excell in close range, so flanking with them out of a building is what makes them good. Storms on the other hand are now more than a long range/ medium range sqaud that is good to deploy with the HT since they are mostly more powerfull to defend the FQH.

I think it should stay as it is right now, i am going to play the beta and try to get some replay when i can find time.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Storms with elite Kar98 are unique.. so there is no reason to remove the Kar as their load-out.

Therefore, i'm not really in favor of removing UAS while making regular Storm spawn with MP40 while having possible G43 & StG upgrades.

It's better to have 2 units, just as it is now.. let's not remove the elite Kar98.

[Warhawks97]

@consti: storms in HT cost 360 vs 450 from house spawn. Barracks take too long to deploy and get them to the front.

I deploy stg assault units in the open field. Why should I not. It would be extremely bad to lose stg squads from the halftrack for reasons I mentioned already. But apparently no one can read.

@tiger.grens use k98 elite as well. And since k98 buff the Volks have the same k98 as stats as storms and grens used in the past.

I am 10000% sure that I will never see storms on the field that stick to their k98.

[MEFISTO]

Ok then, at least give me the chance to deploy the UAS from the HT, all stormtroopers should be able to be deployed from “stormtroopers HT” right? Since you already pay the HT price in return.

[Walderschmidt]

I have no objection to UAS spawning from the Sturm HT.

Is there any reason why we cannot just add the UAS instead of removing one of the 4 squads currently deployable from said halftrack?

Its not about bad. The G43 is lethal as fuck. As i said: Do we even need a Storm squad that comes with K98 at all when they will be upgraded everytime anyways?

Because otherwise they’d be OP for the price and it would reduce Blitz doc’s need to balance muni spending which is one of the limits on its power curve.

With that line of questioning, why don’t we just spawn volksgrens with the LMG34 already equipped? Why not spawn grenadiers with two shreks equipped? These are rhetorical questions.

Wald

[Warhawks97]

I have no objection to UAS spawning from the Sturm HT.

Is there any reason why we cannot just add the UAS instead of removing one of the 4 squads currently deployable from said halftrack?

Its not about bad. The G43 is lethal as fuck. As i said: Do we even need a Storm squad that comes with K98 at all when they will be upgraded everytime anyways?

Because otherwise they’d be OP for the price and it would reduce Blitz doc’s need to balance muni spending which is one of the limits on its power curve.

With that line of questioning, why don’t we just spawn volksgrens with the LMG34 already equipped? Why not spawn grenadiers with two shreks equipped? These are rhetorical questions.

Wald

Commandos, 82nd, infiltration ranger and so on come with the weapons equipped they need to fulfill their main task. And I wonder who unlocks storms and build them just to have them as very long range k98 main line inf?

Generally I would like to see more units that come equipped with specific weapons that fit the purpose instead of always starting with more or less same weapons.

[Walderschmidt]

Commandos, 82nd, infiltration ranger and so on come with the weapons equipped they need to fulfill their main task. And I wonder who unlocks storms and build them just to have them as very long range k98 main line inf?

Generally I would like to see more units that come equipped with specific weapons that fit the purpose instead of always starting with more or less same weapons.

And yet Rangers don’t come already equipped with Thompsons, LMGs, or Bazookas, 101st don’t come already equipped with Johnson LMGs or Recoiless Rifles, and so forth and so on.

And sure you would. Do any other players feel this way?

Have you even played with the new stormtroopers?

Wald

[Warhawks97]

And yet Rangers don’t come already equipped with Thompsons, LMGs, or Bazookas, 101st don’t come already equipped with Johnson LMGs or Recoiless Rifles, and so forth and so on.

And sure you would. Do any other players feel this way?

Have you even played with the new stormtroopers?

Wald

Imagine the 101st unlock would unlock two 101st squads. One dropping with carabines and that can only upgrade to Garands. The other dropping with 1x Thompson and 5x Grease guns and they can only upgrade to more Thompson. Would that makes sense to you?
No, it doesnt. We have one squad that can either upgrade for better mid-long range weapons or close range weapons. Same is true for Rangers: They start with rifles but can at least upgrade lmgs (so that it makes actually sense to keep their base rifles) or short range thompsons. We dont build different Ranger squads which are exactly the same only to have different upgrades.

Also, when i play as inf doc i barely go for Rangers. Most of the time i get arty/Tanks and emplacments first. Only later with cheaper inf unlock i get some rangers but there they are only support to my tanks and emplacments acting as line infantry with Garands and lmgs. Cheap inf unlock, cheap weapon upgrades and supply yard allows me to use them more as spam unit where rifles still count. In BK doc i cant play this style and storms are main assault forces and not mainline inf which dont even get lmgs.


I would be ok to go back to old storms which start with K98 and can upgrade STGs and lmgs. So they would be like basic rangers essentially which achieve flexibility due to many different upgrades. Having an LMG as upgrade would then make sense to keep them with K98 rifles. Or we start off with close range weapons and G43 as possible upgrade. But having twice the exact same unit although it could be easily combined in one makes no sense to me. As i said, we dont build two different 101st squads for the same reason or two different basic Ranger squads just to have one with an lmg upgrade and the other with only thompson upgrade.



Perhaps you guys still dont understand so let me ask this question: When you build the K98 squad, why would you do that? To keep them with K98 Rifles only? I would bet you get them only to upgrade them to G43 asap. When this is the case, why even bothering starting with K98 at all (when you dont get lmgs on them like rangers can)?

[Consti255]

The G43 is still more accurate than the STG on mid range and benefit more from camo/crawling. So i would say, try it, upload gameplay before judgeing.
I can see that G43 ambushes that planned in green cover can be pretty damn usefull.

What i could see, is a MG34 upgrade for them after the 3CP Vet training.

[Warhawks97]

The G43 is still more accurate than the STG on mid range and benefit more from camo/crawling. So i would say, try it, upload gameplay before judgeing.
I can see that G43 ambushes that planned in green cover can be pretty damn usefull.

What i could see, is a MG34 upgrade for them after the 3CP Vet training.

Yes, i did not say to remove the G43. But i dont understand why we need to get a K98 squad when nobody is going to stay with this default loadout. I could understand when the K98 gets an lmg upgrade. People will get the K98 squad only for the G43 essentially. So why not just forget about the K98 and make it one unit that has close range equipment by default and able to upgrade to mid range G43?

Why this doubling?

[Constantino]

The changes never made any sense to me. Grenadiers were your long range combat unit, which where removed, then the "close quarter squad" was added which then became Stormtroopers, so the original Stormtroopers then had to be changed to become Grenadiers.

IMO Stormtroopers would be shock assault infantry who should come with STG equipped squad leader, rest of squad with MP40s, bundle grenades and panzerfaust-100s with option to fully upgrade squad with STGs along with a unit cap of 2 and have infiltration spawning.

Grenadiers should be available in this doc as multirole a later-game backbone unit which come with rifle grenade ability and have Panzerschreck, MG42, and G43 upgrades with option to get any 2 of the aforementioned upgrades.

[Diablo]

Constantino has a good point here, to be honest.

[tarakancheg]

And what with suppression storms then? If we add grens to bk then there will be no point in having them because the only reason they were added is that BK has MG42

[MarKr]

The changes never made any sense to me. Grenadiers were your long range combat unit, which where removed, then the "close quarter squad" was added which then became Stormtroopers, so the original Stormtroopers then had to be changed to become Grenadiers.

IMO Stormtroopers would be shock assault infantry who should come with STG equipped squad leader, rest of squad with MP40s, bundle grenades and panzerfaust-100s with option to fully upgrade squad with STGs along with a unit cap of 2 and have infiltration spawning.

Grenadiers should be available in this doc as multirole a later-game backbone unit which come with rifle grenade ability and have Panzerschreck, MG42, and G43 upgrades with option to get any 2 of the aforementioned upgrades.

We've said that Storms (or whatever "long range" squad in BK doc) will not get an LMG so asking to give them Grenadiers with LMG is a bug no. At that point that Grenadier squad is almost exactly what the current Storms squad is (schreck and G43 is there for Storms, too, rifle grenades are not present currently anywhere in Axis arsenal and LMG is a no-go) so why even change it? Is it just about the name? If it is reeeealy such a deal-breaker we can rename "Urban Assault Squad" to "Stormtroopers" and the current stormtroopers to "Assault Rifle Squad" or whatever but that would be purely cosmetic change.

Furthermore, Storms have more HP than Grens and Grens are not affected by the "Stormtrooper training unlock" nor the Storm command squad's aura so giving them Grens back instead of the "Storms rifle squad" would be a net nerf to BK doc.

[Consti255]

Saying so Markr, i would like to see a rename. So new players that dont often visit the forum wont be confused as much.

I played the recent change and i think it is a good one btw.

When it comes to MGs, the ONLY way we could implement it would be if we remove the supressions sqaud, give the MG42 upgrade to the Assault Rifle Sqaud after the 3CP Stormtrooper training AND put the Assault Rifle sqaud behind the Stormtrooper unlock where the supressions sqaud sits right now.
That beeing said, i think its not necessary, because the Supressions sqaud does excatly the role.

[Warhawks97]

The changes never made any sense to me. Grenadiers were your long range combat unit, which where removed, then the "close quarter squad" was added which then became Stormtroopers, so the original Stormtroopers then had to be changed to become Grenadiers.

IMO Stormtroopers would be shock assault infantry who should come with STG equipped squad leader, rest of squad with MP40s, bundle grenades and panzerfaust-100s with option to fully upgrade squad with STGs along with a unit cap of 2 and have infiltration spawning.

Grenadiers should be available in this doc as multirole a later-game backbone unit which come with rifle grenade ability and have Panzerschreck, MG42, and G43 upgrades with option to get any 2 of the aforementioned upgrades.

True.

And what with suppression storms then? If we add grens to bk then there will be no point in having them because the only reason they were added is that BK has MG42

Suppression squad has all the benefits Storms have. Ambush, HP, buffs, affected by command squad etc. when compared to grens.

We've said that Storms (or whatever "long range" squad in BK doc) will not get an LMG so asking to give them Grenadiers with LMG is a bug no. At that point that Grenadier squad is almost exactly what the current Storms squad is (schreck and G43 is there for Storms, too, rifle grenades are not present currently anywhere in Axis arsenal and LMG is a no-go) so why even change it? Is it just about the name? If it is reeeealy such a deal-breaker we can rename "Urban Assault Squad" to "Stormtroopers" and the current stormtroopers to "Assault Rifle Squad" or whatever but that would be purely cosmetic change.

Furthermore, Storms have more HP than Grens and Grens are not affected by the "Stormtrooper training unlock" nor the Storm command squad's aura so giving them Grens back instead of the "Storms rifle squad" would be a net nerf to BK doc.

I never understood why grens became a doctrinal unit. They were quite insane in old terror doc but having them removed everywhere was in my opinion a big mistake. On top of that, after having grens removed from 2 doctrines, the Volksgrens literally became the old gren squad in terms of damage output. personally i would have liked to keep grens as default unit everywhere able to upgrade packages depending on doctrine.
Its like in a circus: Volks became Grens, Grens got removed, Stormtrooper become Grens now and UAS become Stormtroopers.....



In BK doc grens would be able to get a standard LMG or a package would turn them into assault grenadiers with MP40´s. And the assault ability storms have would have stayed as an unlock which would be usable by volks, grens and storms ofc.

The storms later would be a pure elite assault squad spawning with STGs and MP40 and able to get more stgs and schrecks with suppression squad as a specialized support unit.

So essentially BK doc is completely about offense. Volks being able to utilize many MP40 and using the assault ability (the one that breaks suppression and makes you throw many nades) once unlocked. Then Grens can be turned into assault grens with MP40´s and assault ability but can also forms the backbone of ranged units with K98 and lmg.
The Storms at the very end will essentially just be the ultimate elite assault unit for close up engagments and lots of explosive stuff to clear the way. Hence the tons of HP, vet training, grenade bundles, sneaky crawling etc. that helps to overcome any defense.

But the backbone Infantry with rifles/lmgs etc should simply be the Grens. Having a Rifle only squad with 95 HP, combat training, crawl, assault ability and crawling makes kinda no sense. Weapons should fit with the weapons available to a unit and not randomly mixed together.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I think all Storms are fine now, and no need for Grenadiers.
Though, the only thing i'd really like to see now.. is Demo Storm squad spawning with MP40s by default.

[MEFISTO]

In my opinion, Propaganda doctrine is the one that needs Grenadiers back, I don’t really understand why this doctrine only have this paper Volkstrum unit and Volks when Allie’s Armor capabilities have been improved (I love that part) and all doctrines have strong infantry, even Armor have this assault engineer and all CW base units doctrines are strong.
It’s so tedious to play this doctrine in my opinion, because you need to have a good micro and be watching this paper unit all the time, they are like “easy veterancy” for enemies troops.

[tarakancheg]

In my opinion, Propaganda doctrine is the one that needs Grenadiers back, I don’t really understand why this doctrine only have this paper Volkstrum unit and Volks when Allie’s Armor capabilities have been improved (I love that part) and all doctrines have strong infantry, even Armor have this assault engineer and all CW base units doctrines are strong.
It’s so tedious to play this doctrine in my opinion, because you need to have a good micro and be watching this paper unit all the time, they are like “easy veterancy” for enemies troops.

Can we disscuss prop in different tread?