Detection range for units with Crawl ability

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Should units with Crawl be detected at longer range?

Poll ended at 30 Nov 2021, 17:28

Yes (possibly add at what range they should get detected)
4
44%
No, keep them as they are
5
56%
I would like a different change to crawl (explain in a comment)
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 9

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MarKr
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Detection range for units with Crawl ability

Post by MarKr »

Hi,

during our discussions about SAS and when the crawl should be available for them, we got to the topic of the crawl ability in general. Several people even here on the forum or other platforms have expressed their dislike in the idea that enemy infantry with SMGs or other weapons can "ninja-move" without being detected to such a short range that the enemy is basically standing on their heads and cannot see them. This in turn gives even more advantage to the crawling units as they can stop the crawl and start spraying the enemy infantry with their SMGs at their most lethal range without risking anything while getting this close (but short-range squads have to take some risk while sprinting to the target from the range of 60).

One of the ideas here was that units with crawl would be easier to detect at longer ranges. We didn't go much into details at what distance they would get revealed, but most SMGs get relatively good accuracy at the range of 20 and then extremely good accuracy at the range of 10. So units with crawl could get spotted at the range of, e.g., 23 - so you could still get a good jump at the enemy but it would no longer look like in this video.

The range of "23" is just an example so if you are for such a change, feel free to suggest a reveal range you feel is appropriate.

This would also apply only to units that can crawl and also carry weapons, so US and WM Spotters would remain the same. Units affected would be: SAS, Infiltration Rangers, Stormtroopers, Sabotage squad. I hope I didn't forget any unit, simply armed units with ability to crawl.

The poll has also an option for possible other solutions. If you have any other idea, write it in the comments. However, please, stay on topic. Try to come up with (at least relatively) simple solutions, not a crawl change that also for some reason requires implementing weapon packages for all infantry and/or making Shermans/M10s/Hellcats/StuGs and PIVs 0CP.

A few technical things in case you have some suggestions to this topic:
- detection range is a static number that cannot be modified by abilities. This means that we cannot make the detection range lower when standing still and larger when the squad is crawling (on the move).
- detection range cancels camouflage no matter if it is passive camo or crawl. This means that if the detection range gets increased, (for example) SAS will get detected at longer ranges no matter if it is camoed because of active crawl ability, or because of standing still in cover (passive camo).
- detection is applied per soldier, so it is possible to reveal just one soldier and keep the rest of the squad hidden if the rest of the squad stays far enough
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Krieger Blitzer
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Re: Detection range for units with Crawl ability

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

No, keep them as they are.
Similarly, i also was (and still) against any nerf to the current TDs ambush system.

- Game-play reasons of why i think so:
Players have dedicated units that are mainly used to spot hidden stuff in all factions.

- Balance reasons of why i think so:
Crawling units are specialised inf that require CPs, or - in some other cases - units already on the field wouldn't be able to crawl except with a CP unlock.

- Realism aspect:
What players complain to be a "short range" isn't actually that short.. because weapon ranges are adjusted in-game based on a 1,000 meters distance at 60 range... So, when a unit is "5 cm away" that's actually a 100 to 200 meters away... Otherwise, we would have to implement realistic range(s) which would require super huge maps! Bottom line is, there is nothing to complain about.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Detection range for units with Crawl ability

Post by Warhawks97 »

I wouldnt mind about an overall increase of detection range. Its often just too hilarious that you literally have to stomp on them first.(Or drive right into the tank before seeing it)
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MarKr
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Re: Detection range for units with Crawl ability

Post by MarKr »

Krieger Blitzer wrote:
21 Nov 2021, 00:57
- Game-play reasons of why i think so:
Players have dedicated units that are mainly used to spot hidden stuff in all factions.
Counter-argument: Do you bring these dedicated units along with every infantry squad to make sure they can spot a crawling unit that is right next to them?
Krieger Blitzer wrote:
21 Nov 2021, 00:57
- Balance reasons of why i think so:
Crawling units are specialised inf that require CPs, or - in some other cases - units already on the field wouldn't be able to crawl except with a CP unlock.
Counter-argument: Specialised or not, CP or not they would still be very deadly at the reveal range, they would only not be able to crawl right up to the range of maximum lethality.
Krieger Blitzer wrote:
21 Nov 2021, 00:57
- Realism aspect:
What players complain to be a "short range" isn't actually that short.. because weapon ranges are adjusted in-game based on a 1,000 meters distance at 60 range... So, when a unit is "5 cm away" that's actually a 100 to 200 meters away...
Counter-argument showing how "realism" arguments are pointless: If "5cm = 100-200m" then we have SMGs that can shoot in burst mode at 100-200m distance with 90% accuracy which is an utter BS.
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Re: Detection range for units with Crawl ability

Post by Redgaarden »

think camo is too deadly as it is right now in infantry vs infantry engagements. I would like the nerf.

Think camo should be more about not getting killed by long range units like snipers and artillery.

20 range sounds good to me. 23 sounds also good.
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Re: Detection range for units with Crawl ability

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

MarKr wrote:
21 Nov 2021, 02:46
Krieger Blitzer wrote:
21 Nov 2021, 00:57
- Game-play reasons of why i think so:
Players have dedicated units that are mainly used to spot hidden stuff in all factions.
Counter-argument: Do you bring these dedicated units along with every infantry squad to make sure they can spot a crawling unit that is right next to them?
Krieger Blitzer wrote:
21 Nov 2021, 00:57
- Balance reasons of why i think so:
Crawling units are specialised inf that require CPs, or - in some other cases - units already on the field wouldn't be able to crawl except with a CP unlock.
Counter-argument: Specialised or not, CP or not they would still be very deadly at the reveal range, they would only not be able to crawl right up to the range of maximum lethality.
Krieger Blitzer wrote:
21 Nov 2021, 00:57
- Realism aspect:
What players complain to be a "short range" isn't actually that short.. because weapon ranges are adjusted in-game based on a 1,000 meters distance at 60 range... So, when a unit is "5 cm away" that's actually a 100 to 200 meters away...
Counter-argument showing how "realism" arguments are pointless: If "5cm = 100-200m" then we have SMGs that can shoot in burst mode at 100-200m distance with 90% accuracy which is an utter BS.
Using the detecting units is always efficient.. whether spotters (which are now unlimited) or jeeps\bikes.. it's a common tactic that M8 US scout car is often used as recon unit to detect hidden stuff.

Currently, you pay 7 CP to unlock crawling for Storms, and about as many for SAS, i would be fine for detection range to become higher only if the required CPs are less.

Also, you have officers\Captains\Leutinants that can detect units at longer distance.. preventing them from being 5cm away.

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Re: Detection range for units with Crawl ability

Post by Consti255 »

I am 100% against a nerf to camo overall. Its really hard to pull of passive camo ambushes, since its hard to get all units getting into camo mode.

Also, i agree here with Tigar. You have the spotting ability, detection vehicles like Swimms, Krads, M20s, Jeeps or even Officiers.
Another agreement on Tigar here aswell, the amounts of CP you have to spend for storms for example are really huge and shreks even disable the crawling ability.

The US infantry also rely heavy on their SMGs and ambush capabilitys when it comes to infantry vs infantry combat.

i am pretty sure where this discussion is comeing from, its from a game were Kwok was facing me and my infiltration rangers and he even had a vampire truck to track their positioning. So when you even know where i am, just use the Krad spotting tool or a schwimm to stop me crawling to certain locations.

Crawling mostly just kicks in vs unsupported units in backlines or points that are far off from the heavy fighting frontline. Also crawling mostly comes in handy to sneak up in a good position (green cover for example) and wait for a good ambush opportunity.

Just a question, what is the detection range for crawling right now? I am sure, it could be increased for officiers and i think its a pretty solid suggestion by Tigar.
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Warhawks97
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Re: Detection range for units with Crawl ability

Post by Warhawks97 »

Consti255 wrote:
21 Nov 2021, 11:52

Crawling mostly just kicks in vs unsupported units in backlines or points that are far off from the heavy fighting frontline. Also crawling mostly comes in handy to sneak up in a good position (green cover for example) and wait for a good ambush opportunity.

Just a question, what is the detection range for crawling right now? I am sure, it could be increased for officiers and i think its a pretty solid suggestion by Tigar.

To me crawling has never been a huge thing for the reasons you mentioned here. I barely use the infi rangers due to their cost. Using normal cheaper rangers with better loadouts is my prefered option for allied inf gameplay. Other than that allied inf is just a support asset for me most of the time for tanks. I am not sneaking into enemie lines all that often because often times they will die during the engagment or during the retreat. So i like to create a fire line with as many units as possible using vehicles and tanks with cal 50 as well as rifle equiped inf and slowly creeping forward with support of artillery. And most of the time i watch players using sneaky ranger shit will in the long run starve on ressources and their lack of back up units usually results in a quick overrun of their side as soon as stronger axis inf and tanks start to appear.

And on german side i cant remember to have used sneaky tactics with units except for sabo/demo squads and storm leader squad. But i used crawl not to get as close as possible, but to get into the right spot.

So to me, all in all crawl isnt a big thing in main combat operations. I only used it to either bring units into the right place (usually leader and suppression squad to be in the right spot) or to take out, as you mentioned, support units like AT guns. But in both scenarios it wouldnt make a difference whether the units get detected at 5 or 25 distance away.

So i am for a change simply for being less hilarious.
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MarKr
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Re: Detection range for units with Crawl ability

Post by MarKr »

Consti255 wrote:
21 Nov 2021, 11:52
I am 100% against a nerf to camo overall. Its really hard to pull of passive camo ambushes, since its hard to get all units getting into camo mode.
I am not sure if I explained it correctly. So I should probably add some points.
1) Vision range is NOT the same as detection range so e.g. the Spotter has basic vision of "60" (just as any other infantry unit) and detection range of "40". When binoculars ability is active, the vision range is extended to "100" but detection range is still "40".
2) Most infantry can detect camoed enemies at the range of "7", most non-scout vehicles (Halftracks and tanks) have detection radius of "0"
3) Each soldier (or vehicle) has set a range at which he gets revealed even if the enemy unit has detection of "0" (e.g. for SAS it is a radius of "3")

This allows to make units able to detect units at certain range and also set specific ranges at which units get their camo canceled - logically, camoed vehicles could be detected at longer range than a single soldier.

With all this explained - the poll is about increasing the "range at which soldiers get revealed" (so the point #3) and ONLY for SAS, Infiltration rangers, Sabotage squad and Stormtroopers.
Snipers, spotters, tank destroyers, Fallshirms, Gebirgs, 82nd, Commandos, MGs, AT guns (and other camouflagable stuff that stays hidden only when not moving) would remain unchanged. Spotters can crawl but have no guns, and snipers have guns but nobody crawls with them up close to shoot enemy soldier in the face from 60cm away.
Consti255 wrote:
21 Nov 2021, 11:52
i am pretty sure where this discussion is comeing from, its from a game were Kwok was facing me and my infiltration rangers and he even had a vampire truck to track their positioning. So when you even know where i am, just use the Krad spotting tool or a schwimm to stop me crawling to certain locations.
You're actually wrong. It all came from the internal SAS discussion. People asked for SAS to get stronger stats on Sten guns and to have crawl awailable sooner we agreed that sooner (or immediate) crawl with stronger Sten stats would be very strong. We also agreed that Stens are too weak (which is a remnant of how Commandos used to work several years ago) and should get a buff. But since same guns have same stats, we shouldn't buff Commandos, Assault squad, RE sappers and other units using Stens, but keep the Stens of SAS weaker.
One of the solutions would be to give them crawl from the start and also better Stens but make it harder for them to crawl right under enemy noses. This then leads to the thing where other units with crawl should be treated in the same way to keep the crawl mechanics unified.
So SAS would have crawl from the start and better combat effectiveness, Infiltration rangers and Sabotage squads are already like that so only Storms would stand out as they have to unlock their crawl but even there the CP cost could be lowered a bit with this change or get some other compensation.
Consti255 wrote:
21 Nov 2021, 11:52
Crawling mostly just kicks in vs unsupported units in backlines or points that are far off from the heavy fighting frontline. Also crawling mostly comes in handy to sneak up in a good position (green cover for example) and wait for a good ambush opportunity.
Yes, and that's part of it - how many people keep some detection units on their backline? And with the weapons these units have, even at 20 or 23 range they will still be able to crawl to cover and wait there for ambush.
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Re: Detection range for units with Crawl ability

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

MarKr wrote:
21 Nov 2021, 14:09
With all this explained - the poll is about increasing the "range at which soldiers get revealed" (so the point #3) and ONLY for SAS, Infiltration rangers, Sabotage squad and Stormtroopers.
Snipers, spotters, tank destroyers, Fallshirms, Gebirgs, 82nd, Commandos, MGs, AT guns (and other camouflagable stuff that stays hidden only when not moving) would remain unchanged. Spotters can crawl but have no guns, and snipers have guns but nobody crawls with them up close to shoot enemy soldier in the face from 60cm away.
Consti255 wrote:
21 Nov 2021, 11:52
i am pretty sure where this discussion is comeing from, its from a game were Kwok was facing me and my infiltration rangers and he even had a vampire truck to track their positioning. So when you even know where i am, just use the Krad spotting tool or a schwimm to stop me crawling to certain locations.
You're actually wrong. It all came from the internal SAS discussion. People asked for SAS to get stronger stats on Sten guns and to have crawl awailable sooner we agreed that sooner (or immediate) crawl with stronger Sten stats would be very strong. We also agreed that Stens are too weak (which is a remnant of how Commandos used to work several years ago) and should get a buff. But since same guns have same stats, we shouldn't buff Commandos, Assault squad, RE sappers and other units using Stens, but keep the Stens of SAS weaker.
One of the solutions would be to give them crawl from the start and also better Stens but make it harder for them to crawl right under enemy noses. This then leads to the thing where other units with crawl should be treated in the same way to keep the crawl mechanics unified.
So SAS would have crawl from the start and better combat effectiveness, Infiltration rangers and Sabotage squads are already like that so only Storms would stand out as they have to unlock their crawl but even there the CP cost could be lowered a bit with this change or get some other compensation.
Consti255 wrote:
21 Nov 2021, 11:52
Crawling mostly just kicks in vs unsupported units in backlines or points that are far off from the heavy fighting frontline. Also crawling mostly comes in handy to sneak up in a good position (green cover for example) and wait for a good ambush opportunity.
Yes, and that's part of it - how many people keep some detection units on their backline? And with the weapons these units have, even at 20 or 23 range they will still be able to crawl to cover and wait there for ambush.
in my humble opinion, tweaking the crawl system (which is currently counter-able & balanced given how many CPs required) just to improve SAS is not the right thing to do.

it's the main purpose of these units to sneak up to the enemy.. and counters DO already exist.. and they are sufficient enough. So, saying that crawling should change just to make it less hilarious isn't a valid argument in my view.. because - balance wise - the current ambush system has no issues in that aspect. You can - however - improve SAS in other ways, and suggestions were given.

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Re: Detection range for units with Crawl ability

Post by Consti255 »

MarKr wrote:
21 Nov 2021, 14:09
Consti255 wrote:
21 Nov 2021, 11:52
Crawling mostly just kicks in vs unsupported units in backlines or points that are far off from the heavy fighting frontline. Also crawling mostly comes in handy to sneak up in a good position (green cover for example) and wait for a good ambush opportunity.
Yes, and that's part of it - how many people keep some detection units on their backline? And with the weapons these units have, even at 20 or 23 range they will still be able to crawl to cover and wait there for ambush.
And thats what makes sabotage/crawling units usefull..
They take advantage of an enemy that doesnt cover up his fron with detection units or scouts. Keep in mind, that once in the backline, its hard to retreat aswell. Also, unit wipes are really rare once a unit reaches vet 2. from the enemy. So a tool that can wipe out sqauds that are not vetted that hard, without paying hundreds of ammo is quite a cool feature. Also it gives you a reward for carefully planning stuff and intense micro that is actually worth it.

And as Tigar was saying, there are ENOUGH tools to deal with such units.
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Re: Detection range for units with Crawl ability

Post by mofetagalactica »

Maybe just add some slight detection range to tanks and normal infantry ?
Like - 8 range as default for every unit except scout specialized units wich have more?

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Re: Detection range for units with Crawl ability

Post by mofetagalactica »

Maybe just add some slight detection range to tanks and normal infantry ?
Like - 8 range as default for every unit except scout specialized units wich have more?

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Re: Detection range for units with Crawl ability

Post by Jagdpanther »

once i click view results i cant go back and vote

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Re: Detection range for units with Crawl ability

Post by MarKr »

It was a time-limited poll. It is over now and cannot be voted on anymore.
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