short RAF beta feedback

[Consti255]

After playing some games now, i really like the new direction which you Devs took with RAF but i think minor changes could be done, without touching CW as a whole.

SAS are in general a cool unit and i think they can be pretty usefull if used correct, but i would do some changes to them still.
The sten is still a terrible gun and unless the enemy just got Kar98s it most likely loosing the engagement.
But thats where the SAS sqaud comes in, they are equiped with the silenced version of the Sten so we are free to buff them seperate to the normal gun. As well, SAS where the most trained unit in the whole war and they should be be combat effective behind enemy lines, but they could be keeped in place by reducing the sqaud sice.
What i would change:
- reduce the SAS sqaud to 4 members
- buff the silenced stens in terms of damage (more accuracy or pure damage, so it shoots slow but hits hard with a RoF of 500)
- give SAS the ability to lay down AT mines aswell
- cost get reduced to 380
- put them behind the sabotage unlock for 2 CP while beeing able to crawl even without the camo unlock and justify the ability to lay down AT mines
aswell

So the SAS sqaud is more than capable of taking fights with enemy sqauds when they are better positioned like in green cover, but still can be wiped out pretty fast when they engage more than one sqaud at once, or a higher vet sqaud.

Buff up the little john adapter from the tetrach in terms of damage, this adapters where highly effective when it comes to penetration and should behave like that. Also, there is almost no reason to get the upgrade in the HQ truck, because its not worth the cost/time to get. While this unlock is purchased, the tetrach gets absolutley outclassed by everythin what the enemy can get. (P4s,stugs, even panthers).
I dont think they would be OP, if we give them more damage per shot so they atleast 2-3 shot a P4/StuG and dont need a minimum of 4.
They still get oneshoted by every axis 75mm gun.

Sadly, i had 2 replays where the Stens absolutely underperform, but the game crashed 2 times because the AI was driving over units throwing bundles. I am gonna upload a new one as fast as possible.

[Warhawks97]

Thing with silenced sten is its insane accuracy drop. Everything that is beyond arm length away is very hard to hit. A normal MP40 as Pioneers use them have twice the accuracy at distances to 25 range. So unless your target is beyond standard grenade range, you wont hit anything with silenced stens.

[MarKr]

4 men squad won't be more combat effective even with better stens because one casualty means you need to retreat, even against Kar98s.

AT mines probably possible but I doubt they are necessary.

Littlejohn already puts the penetration of the 2pounder to the level of 6pounder/57mm AT. The Tetrarchs are faster and cheaper than StuGs and medium tanks and with the global upgrade you start building light tanks with mounted 6-pounders. If you get more of them, you can take out those mediums. It requires micro, but if we make light tanks to take out mediums in 1v1 with minimum effort, we'll have a crapload of complaints from Axis players coming our way.

[Consti255]

If you would boost up the weapons, they sure become more combat effective since they normally just engage out of a good position (green cover, ambush in close engagements). They also scale with the CP upgrades which could make them tanky enough to stand even when one guy gets killed.
See the storm demolition sqaud as an example, if you give them full STGs, they can take on higher threads like pios.
4 men are also one men less that can be revealed by spotter or random enemy movement which can be a life/death or sucessfull/unsucessfull infiltrate difference for a sabotage unit, since pathing is a little bit clunky, its easier to dodge enemys with 4 men than 5 men.

for the adapter, yeah sure they become 6 pounders in terms of pen, but not in terms of damage, unless the enemy isnt paying attention, you will never get a kill on a P4, even when you are in a 2v1 scenario. The P4 oneshots you, while the little john tetrach needs 4 shots to kill you.
I think buffing up the damage so you only need 3 shots is reasonable.

AT mines can be pretty strong if you can lay them into common used spots for tanks, when you sucessfully infiltrated with crawling.

Opinions from your side Markr towards the CP unlock path/crawling?

[Krieger Blitzer]

just got myself on the BETA & tested SAS changes;

First of, good job with the AT Commando squad, very good solution.

Regarding SAS;
- Crawl shouldn't require unlock, however.. SAS gets a 50 MP upgrade called "infilterative Operations" that allows the SAS to crawl, but disables their ability to reinforce from the air.

Then fix their crawl retreat glitch.

Further feedback will later be provided regarding other stuff.

[MarKr]

Air reinforcement cannot be disabled with unlocks/upgrades.

Opinions from your side Markr towards the CP unlock path/crawling?

I don't like it too much. It's packing too many things under one unlock while making one unlock slot empty and we would have to figure out something to fill that spot.

Another thing is that people seem to still try to get the SAS as soon as possible and then they complain that they cannot crawl and cannot hold their ground in a fight. That's what they used to do in the past but it is not what the SAS is supposed to do now. If you want the squad to set up the triangulation network early on and possibly harras opponent by capping their sectors and forcing them to diverge their forces there, get the SAS early. If you want them for crawl, get other things first and unlock the SAS only when they have the crawl available. Their simply no longer the "always get ASAP to win" unit so people should treat it as such.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Air reinforcement cannot be disabled with unlocks/upgrades.

Are you sure?
Well, here is another idea then:

We have 2 SAS squads, right? Let's make them behave differently, 1 squad can reinforce from the air but can't crawl and has LMG loadout.

The 2nd squad is basically the current one with SMGs being able to crawl without any unlocks.. but spawns in buildings like Gebirgs and are not paratroopers.

[MarKr]

As far I can tell, it cannot be changed. Or at least I don't know how to do it. Or can you think of some vCoH or mod unit that can activate and deactivate air reinforce on the go?

Two different SAS is counter productive as one of the reasons for the change was to make the squad not overlap in putpose with other squads. Lmg loadout will just oveshadow enfield commandos again.

[Krieger Blitzer]

As far I can tell, it cannot be changed. Or at least I don't know how to do it. Or can you think of some vCoH or mod unit that can activate and deactivate air reinforce on the go?

Two different SAS is counter productive as one of the reasons for the change was to make the squad not overlap in putpose with other squads. Lmg loadout will just oveshadow enfield commandos again.

iirc, i have seen a unit before (can't exactly remember which MOD) which can reinforce from air in friendly territory but can't reinforce in enemy sectors.. technically speaking though; i'm aware that this is something to do with enabling/disabling the reinforce ability altogether, and not the air reinforce in particular.. so still, you might be right, as i can't recall anything else.

As for the LMG unit.. well, it's not necessary to have it... As much as i would like to keep the SAS as paratroopers, yet.. i actually wouldn't mind changing both SAS squads to be spawning in buildings (with view required) becoming pure sabotage units and no longer paratroopers in the first place. That's if we really wanted to keep the crawling ability... Or if we wanted to keep at least 1 SAS being para-dropped, then we would have to think of a different load-out to make them more unique.

[Warhawks97]

And what if they are paradropped but not paradrop reinforced and able to crawl earlier? This way they would work like other infiltration units. Doing havoc untill getting detected and cornered. If you want to keep their pressence you can drop a glider in support. But sabotage+crawl+air drop reinforcment seems a bit too much to me. Aside from that i would not add weapon packages etc. Their purpose isnt main line duty anymore and more sabotage/support.

[MEFISTO]

And what if they are paradropped but not paradrop reinforced and able to crawl earlier? This way they would work like other infiltration units. Doing havoc untill getting detected and cornered. If you want to keep their pressence you can drop a glider in support. But sabotage+crawl+air drop reinforcment seems a bit too much to me. Aside from that i would not add weapon packages etc. Their purpose isnt main line duty anymore and more sabotage/support.

Agree +1

[tarakancheg]

+1 on Hawk's suggestion.

[MarKr]

Not possible to do. Paradrop on the map = reinforce by paradrop.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Ya, i was about to post that too...

it would be a bit weird anyway to have an air dropped unit being unable to reinforce from the air.. i think at this point it's better if they spawn in buildings instead, and become able to crawl right away.

[Consti255]

No i would raher keep them beeing paradroped than getting spawned in buildings. They are unique the way they are, while not beeing OP in any regards.

To be honest, after that discussions, i would simply just buff the silenced sten and give them AT mines (or maybe even cooler, the building demolition).
So they can get very usefull and a unique sabotage unit, while kept down by CP upgrades.
No other sabotage unit scales so good with CP as they do.

[MEFISTO]

No i would raher keep them beeing paradroped than getting spawned in buildings. They are unique the way they are, while not beeing OP in any regards.

To be honest, after that discussions, i would simply just buff the silenced sten and give them AT mines (or maybe even cooler, the building demolition).
So they can get very usefull and a unique sabotage unit, while kept down by CP upgrades.
No other sabotage unit scales so good with CP as they do.

Not at all, a unit capable to crawl and reinforce as a paratrooper plus a weapon buff is a too strong combination. What I would do is:
Bring back comandos as a 5 men infiltration with silenced sten.
Change back SAS as they were before but no AT package upgrade, only SMG or LMG, and if you want people using the glider comandos more often, limit SAS squad to 1 (players can pick SMG or LMG loadout)

[Krieger Blitzer]

Not long ago, some of you said that RAF doesn't need any para-dropped units and can work well with Gliders as it doesn't have to get any paratroopers... So, i am quite bewildered why apparently the same people like to keep them air dropped now!

Being air dropped isn't too unique anyway. We have several paratroopers in the game... Spawning in buildings and being able to crawl right away seems to be the most logical option atm.

[Consti255]

Not at all, a unit capable to crawl and reinforce as a paratrooper plus a weapon buff is a too strong combination. What I would do is:
Bring back comandos as a 5 men infiltration with silenced sten.
Change back SAS as they were before but no AT package upgrade, only SMG or LMG, and if you want people using the glider comandos more often, limit SAS squad to 1 (players can pick SMG or LMG loadout)

They would not be too strong, if you buff the silenced one up to a MP40 level. I am super against bringing them back as they used to be even without the AT package. And if you would make them limited by one, they wouldnt be worth the CP. Let them be as they are, they are good this way. Just tune some weapon stats (which basicly easy with the immersion combined, since they are the only one useing the silenced sten) and some abilitys.

If you dont time your crawling perfectly, your reinforce via air is visible for the enemy, which gives away the sqaud and makes it VERY vurnable against Schwimms,light vehicles and the simple spotter ability combined with infantry. So no, they do the job of beeing anoying and giving you good trades if used correctly, which i really like.

Not long ago, some of you said that RAF doesn't need any para-dropped units and can work well with Gliders as it doesn't have to get any paratroopers... So, i am quite bewildered why apparently the same people like to keep them air dropped now!

Being air dropped isn't too unique anyway. We have several paratroopers in the game... Spawning in buildings and being able to crawl right away seems to be the most logical option atm.

Yup that was me and what do you see, is a RAF with its MAIN combat units beeing depended on gliders which i think is a cool and unique playstyle.
If you ask me, i would like to see 2 HQ gliders where the commandos could swap between retreat points from both HQs by swapping ability pages.

The SAS right now are paradroped, yes, but making them another house call in is just simple copy paste with the Storm demolition and Sabotage sqaud. They now are a niche unit (as they were in real life aswell btw.) which isnt a must go when you play this doc and they are not as close as anoying to deal with as in the live version, even if they can crawl and reinforce by air. They are no more a core combat unit of your arsenal, so overall i think RAF is the doc which is now played only with gliders. Taking them the ability to paradrop, makes them even more niche, since many maps have so little numbers of valid houses to spawn a sabotage unit ( without getting revealed by the enemy), it would be so hard for RAF to set up the triangle. So a clear no for the house spawn from my side.

@Markr
what do you think, if we just put the crawl (for the SAS) behind the sabotage CP upgrade? This would give you faster access to a unit to set up a triangle. Because now, the whole map is stacked full of enemy spotter (especially after the US/WH spotter unlimitation, after the 8 CP unlock for the SAS crawl.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Aaah, so your main concern is the triangle.. well, the thing is though; i suggested to allow SAS to spawn in buildings and become able to crawl right away by default (no unlock needed) so that should work as a trade off for not being air-dropped anywhere.

Generally speaking, crawl + air reinforce is a harsh combination.. no matter which unit or side. And that's why crawling is locked behind CP at the moment.

Spawning in a house, then crawling to setup triangulation should be sufficient enough imo. And actually, the entire CW faction doesn't have any unit that spawns in houses.. and SAS being air-dropped can be also considered a copy of AB & Luft, so this argument isn't exactly valid.

That said, i would still think that the idea of having 2 SAS units each behaving differently.. would be the best.
1 unit would spawn in houses and crawls, the other is air-dropped but can't crawl.. both can build triangulation.
Though, what would be the load-out of the air-dropped one?
I was actually thinking to give them BARs.
So, it would be a medium range suppression squad.. as it would be unique, only 1 of a kind, and doesn't negate the purpose of LeeEnfield Commandos.

This way, you get both.. SAS being air dropped, and SAS spawning in buildings.. neither being OP and both being meaningful.

[Consti255]

I never felt that the new SAS sqaud is OP in anyway. The majority even asked for a buff, so i dont get the concerns about them beeing OP.

Its not a AB and Luf copy paste. They are air docks, which are supposed to drop units via parachute/glider, what i meant is, that they are the ONLY sabotage sqaud which can be deployed everywhere on the map which no other doc can and i think its a really cool feature. I mainly dont like building spawns because they limit you with sabotage sqauds because getting detected = insta punish/awareness of mines. On top, building spawns are really clunky and i avoid them.

If we can get the crawling behind the sabotage CP unlock, i think its fair for a sqaud that cannot be used as main force. which is in total 5 CP.

I generally dont like the idea of a fight force SAS sqaud. You have commandos for that which can to the job for all tasks, unless sabotage.

[Warhawks97]

Not possible to do. Paradrop on the map = reinforce by paradrop.

alright. But i think we should keep them paradropped in order to keep them unique. Tigers idea of one para and one house spawn squad is something to think about perhaps.


But i am still inclined to change the tec tree of the RAF in general so that SAS is not a stand-alone unlock. Instead we would have one glider/commando tree with glider and unit unlocks/upgrades and one SAS/Intelligence/Sabotage tree. That way we would have them after just 2 CP but at the same time the gap between unlock and being able to use their full set of abilities would be smaller.


And buffing silenced stens a bit wouldnt hurt. Standard MP40´s from pios are currently much more potent.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

I think that SAS should be able to crawl by default, otherwise there is no reason to go for them before you unlock almost the entire glider branch. Without crawling they are just an overpriced infantry that moreover not able to cause any damage unless the enemy steps on the ambushed stens.

Crawling with sabotage upgrade as Consti suggested would also work, being 3 CP for SAS + crawling in total (Sabotage training will be an independent unlock)

[Consti255]

I think that SAS should be able to crawl by default, otherwise there is no reason to go for them before you unlock almost the entire glider branch. Without crawling they are just an overpriced infantry that moreover not able to cause any damage unless the enemy steps on the ambushed stens.

Crawling with sabotage upgrade as Consti suggested would also work, being 3 CP for SAS + crawling in total (Sabotage training will be an independent unlock)

could also work, if you just put it behind the glider tec2 unlock again, so 6 CP in total.

I also think Warhawks idea could work aswell, with SAS crawl by default. What about :

1 CP Radio Triangle -> 1 CP sabotage -> 2 CP SAS

All as a standalone tree next to the Commando tree?

[MEFISTO]

I still think crawl and air drope reinforce is too strong.

[Consti255]

I still think crawl and air drope reinforce is too strong.

Did you play the beta and test them in a pvp match?
Play with or against them?