Remove of the SP

[Consti255]

Hello everybody,
ive been thinking about this topic now a really long time and discussed or asked many other BK players about this topic.
So ive made a poll over this unit as a whole, to get feedback from the whole community and the Devs and see it statisticly.

Why the remove?
The SP is just a 1 time call in unit, which just f*cks up the balance and is in my opinion nearly impossible to balance.
People will say: its too good i cannot kill it. People who loose it will say: their is no way now to deal with a vetted Tiger/Panthers/KT what ever.
1 time call ins have to be GOOD as heck to justify the 1. time call in. So if people back in the days said that the pershing is too weak compared to axis counterparts, we just threw in this random unit to "balance" it out.

I personally and other members agreed here and i think we should instead buff the pershing ace with special abilitys, better accuracy or anything else and remove this 1. time UBER tank from the game which messes up the balance.
Since the Panther changes, Pershings got anyway very valid and can stand atleast against them on their own, when the Panther has no vet.
But its not always about balance, because sometimes its about fun aswell. And its not fun fighting with or against a SP.
You are always sweating when getting it out that you gonna get immobilized, henschels, mines or anything else, why the axis players just throws everything he has against it and keep loosing stuff.
Now the HiStOrIcAl stuff, this unit was so super rare and not valid in the whole conflict and didnt represent ALLIED superiority in tank warfare in my opinion.

The game displays both factions pretty pretty good in my opinion and is fun but this single unit is just OFF which means:
Off balance
Off context
Off fun


I am curious to find out, if more people agree here with me and what is the result of this poll

[Krieger Blitzer]

Well, i voted "No" mainly because buffing the Pershing Ace in return would only make it another SP instead, but just in disguise.. so game-play wise; there would be no real achievement.

What should happen however is the following;
Pershing Ace should be available to call-in after the SP is gone.. this way you don't spend 10+ CP only for 1 time unit unlock.

[Consti255]

This isnt the case, unless you give it better pen and better armor.
So just by its raw stats, it would be worse than a SP by a mile.

Buffing the SP unlock even more and giving it a pershing ace replace is even more a no no for me.
Just getting rid of it and making the pershing ace more attractive would be better.
Just look at Blitz doc, where it just works out nicely.

[MarKr]

I don't think people would say that there is no way to deal with Tigers and Panthers, but there might be a rant about directly fighting KTs because quite frankly, it is the best option to counter KTs in a direct combat.

What Tiger says is pretty much true - if you buff the stats of the Ace even more than it is now, it will be pretty much just SP which looks like Pershing. If you just give it some abilities, it will be a "slightly better Pershing" which will still most often get one-shot by KT and we're back at "I cannot kill KTs now". There will just be requests for stronger TC offmaps or what not to have ways to kill the super-heavies and Axis players will in turn complain that their super-expensive toys get always destroyed by offmaps.

Or I don't know...what abilities would you give to pershing ace to make it a solid replacement for the SP?

[Walderschmidt]

I would go with Pershing Ace being call in after Super Pershing with option of having a better TC so it has faster aim time/reload even if KT/Panther have better base stats.

Wald

[Erich]

what is wrong with u guys. no

[kwok]

personal opinion? simple. get rid of SP's. get rid of KT's. lol. balanced. both those units are just flagship endgame meme units that only counter each other unless you get hyper lucky with abilities. but will the general population agree with that ever? nope. so ill just end it there.

[Consti255]

I would go with Pershing Ace being call in after Super Pershing with option of having a better TC so it has faster aim time/reload even if KT/Panther have better base stats.

Wald

only if it comes with a nerf to the SP.
Other than that, no.

I would like to see an armor nerf for example against handheld AT.

[Consti255]

I don't think people would say that there is no way to deal with Tigers and Panthers, but there might be a rant about directly fighting KTs because quite frankly, it is the best option to counter KTs in a direct combat.

What Tiger says is pretty much true - if you buff the stats of the Ace even more than it is now, it will be pretty much just SP which looks like Pershing. If you just give it some abilities, it will be a "slightly better Pershing" which will still most often get one-shot by KT and we're back at "I cannot kill KTs now". There will just be requests for stronger TC offmaps or what not to have ways to kill the super-heavies and Axis players will in turn complain that their super-expensive toys get always destroyed by offmaps.

Or I don't know...what abilities would you give to pershing ace to make it a solid replacement for the SP?

ALRS for example. Tools to deal with KTs, JPs and JTs.
Smoke and comeing in with Vet 2.
I made this post, because people that i play often with agree on this topic so i am a little bit biased from perpectives. Thats why i asked the whole community what they are thinking. Aswell this poll, so if their is not enough agreement or maybe a better solution i think it was more or less just a overview over this unit.

personal opinion? simple. get rid of SP's. get rid of KT's. lol. balanced. both those units are just flagship endgame meme units that only counter each other unless you get hyper lucky with abilities. but will the general population agree with that ever? nope. so ill just end it there.

Thats actually not the right attampt. Not just because of a the KT or SP fanboys, more of a balance sake.
Allies got way more offmap tools to take out heavys than axis do.
So Axis mostly rely on head to head combat, while allies on support tools like airstrikes. (which is a good thing and it should stay as it is)

Thats what i meant with that the SP is just off. Its off of context and the general balance of the game, while also beeing a hot mess to balance a single call in unit.
And as you can see what Walder and Tigar are suggesting, there is something wrong with a 1 time call in unit if they are asking for a replace after you called it in. Which makes it even worse in my opinion. So you have to nerf the SP to justify a CP unlock that powerful which gives you both reward units at once.
Big mess in my opinion!
I would rather see an improvement of the Pershing Ace or even make the SP worse and change it to a normal call in.
But please, no UBER tanks which can only be "balanced" with a 1 time call in. In a game with so much RNG its just too frustrating for both sides when such unit exist.

[MEFISTO]

Well, i voted "No" mainly because buffing the Pershing Ace in return would only make it another SP instead, but just in disguise.. so game-play wise; there would be no real achievement.

What should happen however is the following;
Pershing Ace should be available to call-in after the SP is gone.. this way you don't spend 10+ CP only for 1 time unit unlock.

+1 agree

[MEFISTO]

I would go with Pershing Ace being call in after Super Pershing with option of having a better TC so it has faster aim time/reload even if KT/Panther have better base stats.

Wald

only if it comes with a nerf to the SP.
Other than that, no.

I would like to see an armor nerf for example against handheld AT.

To counter SP and armor doctrine in general you only need to pick the right axis Doctrine (Panzer Support TH path and armor have nothing to do) I have a replay I don’t know the others 3 players ( no a pro game but I think was a decent game I will upload it here if you want to check it)

[MEFISTO]

Armor/RAF vs BK/Panzer Support TH path

[kwok]

jeez... this poll is really taking off...

[Consti255]

I would go with Pershing Ace being call in after Super Pershing with option of having a better TC so it has faster aim time/reload even if KT/Panther have better base stats.

Wald

only if it comes with a nerf to the SP.
Other than that, no.

I would like to see an armor nerf for example against handheld AT.

To counter SP and armor doctrine in general you only need to pick the right axis Doctrine (Panzer Support TH path and armor have nothing to do) I have a replay I don’t know the others 3 players ( no a pro game but I think was a decent game I will upload it here if you want to check it)

Lol.
I thought we went in a other direction while making every doc viable in 1v1s and 2v2s?
So what i get from it right now is:
You have to pick Luft or PS (TH) to win if the SP enters the field?
Wired.

[MarKr]

So what i get from it right now is:
You have to pick Luft or PS (TH) to win if the SP enters the field?
Wired.

Yes, or you know...Terror with its KTs, or Def doc with its Nashorn, or SE with its Elefant/Nashorn. Or blast it with panzerschrecks with Storms in BK doc (admitedly harder to pull off but still...).

ALRS for example. Tools to deal with KTs, JPs and JTs.

ALRS gives extra range and guaranteed hit but the shot still keeps its penetration drop and because you shoot at much longer distance, the penetration drops significantly. It doesn't matter much to Axis tanks as those PaK43s have high penetration by default but the 90mm gun isn't as good. So the ALRS would allow you to take down medium tanks at longer range but when shooting at super-heavies, you will just waste ammo as the shot will very likely bounce.

Smoke and comeing in with Vet 2.

Smoke is more of a defensive tool to cover your retreat but since the 90mm on Pershings doesn't reliably penetrate the super-heavies frontally, smoke will not help you defeat them.

So these won't help much to Armor doc to deal with super-heavies. What other ideas do you have?

[Krieger Blitzer]

Now the HiStOrIcAl stuff, this unit was so super rare and not valid in the whole conflict and didnt represent ALLIED superiority in tank warfare in my opinion.

I quote this part not particularly just to discuss the historical aspect but also to react on everything else you posted.

Though, let me start by responding first to what i have quoted:
in fact, from a historical point of view (even though i know this isn't a primary point) but it might be still worth to mention that SP historically makes more sense than Pershing Ace.. because SP is a real tank whereas Pershing Ace is completely fictional. When we say Tiger Ace, Wittmann comes to mind, when we say Panther Ace, Barkmann comes to mind.. but what is a Pershing Ace?? At least the SP is a different REAL tank.

Now, responding other points;
I appreciate how you are trying to balance things out.. but i am afraid you are doing it wrong.
Currently, you pay 11 (or 12?) CPs for the SP, some will say the unlock is useless because you pay too much points for just a single call-in.. others say the unit is OP and should be removed in the first place.

For those who say the unlock is useless; we already suggested to allow the deployment of Pershing Ace when SP is gone.

And for those who think SP is OP, no it's not.. given how it's a 1 time call-in.

I am against removing the SP, or nerfing it.
Also against buffing Pershing Ace.

The only thing i would support, is to allow Pershing Ace after SP gets destroyed.

P.S
Also, a little idea for those saying on Discord that JagdTiger loses vs SP; i think JagdTiger should have 80 range, not 70 range.. because it's 128mm gun with long reload time.

[Frost]

I honestly never expected this to happen at least not this quickly; even Super Pershing wasn't going to be left alone eh? Well all panthers have been modified So why am I surprised? Anyway really no.

Okay, now that I've cast my vote it's time to explain why. You see I started talking about Jagdtiger on Discord and how it failed to fight Super Pershing in 1v1; do you know why? No? well not me either. My point is that most of the time super pershing becomes a problem due to janky things like nashorn when they cannot stop fake firing and take forever to adjust invisible angle or simply things that don't do their intended role and I bring up Jagdtiger as an example of this so perhaps instead of removing the best tank armour company has to offer we should try to FIX THE DAMN USELESS UNITS THAT SUPPOSED TO COUNTER THEM?

It's just another approach to the problem, even if I don't think it's an issue in the first place if anything we should be giving armor company the ability to call in pershing ACE once the super pershing is destroyed.

[MarKr]

Jagdtiger CAN lose but just as well a 37mm PaK CAN penetrate Churchill croc...but how often does it happen?

Jagdtiger has 100% penetration vs the SP, it deals 900-1100 damage (SP has 1300 HP), with a good crit chances, including the one-shot critical. The highest "gamble" is accuracy but even there at max range the chance to hit the SP is over 70% (no matter if the SP is moving or not). TS has ways to mark targets and get the accuracy above 90%.

SP vs JT, on the other hand, has 100% accuracy but only 24% chance to penetrate at max range and deals 675-825 damage (JT has 1200 HP, crits also apply, though). With AP ability, the penetration goes up to 41% at max range but the damage goes down to 573-701.

There are other aspects, too. E.g. tank commanders and their vet level, vet level of the unit itself, terrain, unit positioning (rear hits), other supporting units etc. I don't know what happened in that one specific game, so I cannot judge the situation but in general, when JT fights the SP:

[Frost]

Jagdtiger CAN lose but just as well a 37mm PaK CAN penetrate Churchill croc...but how often does it happen?

Jagdtiger has 100% penetration vs the SP, it deals 900-1100 damage (SP has 1300 HP), with a good crit chances, including the one-shot critical. The highest "gamble" is accuracy but even there at max range the chance to hit the SP is over 70% (no matter if the SP is moving or not). TS has ways to mark targets and get the accuracy above 90%.

SP vs JT, on the other hand, has 100% accuracy but only 24% chance to penetrate at max range and deals 675-825 damage (JT has 1200 HP, crits also apply, though). With AP ability, the penetration goes up to 41% at max range but the damage goes down to 573-701.

There are other aspects, too. E.g. tank commanders and their vet level, vet level of the unit itself, terrain, unit positioning (rear hits), other supporting units etc. I don't know what happened in that one specific game, so I cannot judge the situation but in general, when JT fights the SP:
high ground.jpg

not 1 but 2 times idk people tend to develop ptsd from the first time.... so just in case it didn't trigger the 2nd time it confirmed it.


also i killed both super with jagdpanther which seriously makes me question why in the world to get jagdtiger anyway? just meh.

edit: don't forget the offmap howitzer shot for the armor company your jagdtiger takes forever to shoot and move so if you place it on centre of the thing while firing you are pretty much screwed up.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Speaking of the JT, it's actually one of the easiest units to kill.. for some reason 95mm Churchill & 105mm arty deals immense amount of damage to it.

Also, the reload time is so big and it's slow to chase anything down.. that's why i suggested to give it 80 range or 75 at least.

Keep in mind, this tank has 128mm gun; so it shouldn't be on the same category as 90mm or 88 tank cannons.

[Frost]

i think tiger suggestion there is the best way to make jagdtiger even potentially combat effective.

the way it is right now is ........ honestly resources throw away.

[MEFISTO]

only if it comes with a nerf to the SP.
Other than that, no.

I would like to see an armor nerf for example against handheld AT.

To counter SP and armor doctrine in general you only need to pick the right axis Doctrine (Panzer Support TH path and armor have nothing to do) I have a replay I don’t know the others 3 players ( no a pro game but I think was a decent game I will upload it here if you want to check it)

Lol.
I thought we went in a other direction while making every doc viable in 1v1s and 2v2s?
So what i get from it right now is:
You have to pick Luft or PS (TH) to win if the SP enters the field?
Wired.

Same thing, bk doctrine panther has nothing to do vs Pershing. Then what?

[Consti255]

Smoke is a defensive tool, but the more expensive a tank gets, the more defensive tools give you keeping a high vet or expensive tank alive.
BK is all about trading when it comes to tank combat so whenever you get the first shot out and hitting, popping smoke instantly after denys the enemy shot while you can push up and finish it off, since you mist likely gonna reload faster and push out of the smoke.

Didn't knew that about the ALRS btw, so yeah this would be good against panthers and Tigers, but not against the bigger cats.

When it comes to historical stuff Tigar, i can gladly immagine a good tanker in a M26 than on a SP. When you add a SP with only 1 combat engagement in the whole war, you could also add the maus.

But still, i think, if so many people are for a remove and against it, i think a simple rebalance of the unit would be more sensefull.

about a Pershing ACE call in after the SP is destroyed, i am not against such change, but still against it if nothing is going to change to the SP stats. This change would make this CP tree way too good if not OP. There is a reward menu for reason and there is a reason why you shouldnt be able to call in such units for the same amount of CP.

[Hamza]

No,sp is already weak , immoblize the tank and its done , KT can destroy it also ,its also powerfull and can change games ,if it will be removed ,then their is a gap should be filled for armor doc , pershing isn't enough , cant stand a chance against vet panthers or tigers . Yes it could be annoying some times , but a smart player could easly counter it ,flame thrower-mines-TDs. The unit should stay like it is , or with a unit doing the same job .

[H.Drescher]

I've always held that the Super Pershing is super unhealthy for the game. It creates an unfun game of cat and mouse. Entire late games can revolve around this singular unit which can create a frustrating experience. Often times players will just alt+f4 out of games when they lose their spershings.

Realistically as an axis player it is very hard to kill. Your only hope is to immobilize it which is hard as its a mobile tank. Your other hope is to overwhelm it with other late game tanks which is easier said than done, but certainly possible. Both of this factors create an extremely unfun late game.

In Comparison, the Big Cats of the Axis late game are extremely slow. The King Tiger, The Elephant, The Jadgtiger: are all vehicles that are easily knocked out by artillery and planes, which require them to have support elements and other things surrounded by them. Something which the Allies have a plethora of, but the axis often times do not have much of these support resources. That alone breaks the balanced "assystemtry" of the game.

The Spershing in comparison is just the old version of the Panther, a one man army that with enough micro and gamer sweat can win a game.

The Pershing Ace is also a disgusting vehicle, though not quite perceived as strong. It does however delete infantry at an astonishing rate, faster than any 50 cal vehicle I've seen due to its coaxial buffing ability. Something that I feel is slept upon by many Armor doctrine players.

Speaking of the JT, it's actually one of the easiest units to kill.. for some reason 95mm Churchill & 105mm arty deals immense amount of damage to it.

Also, the reload time is so big and it's slow to chase anything down.. that's why i suggested to give it 80 range or 75 at least.

Keep in mind, this tank has 128mm gun; so it shouldn't be on the same category as 90mm or 88 tank cannons.

I disagree with the range increase. The vehicle may be pushed over the top as it currently is. It's main gun was not impacted by the nerfs to infantry attacking, it has a ridiculous amount of armor, and it has an amazing HE shell. Its short range despite the logical inconsistency is the short coming. The range as it stands cements its place vs the Ferdinand which is a specialized long range tank duelist that is incapable of infantry murder.

As for the vulnerability to artillery, it ensures that the tank needs a lot of support units to complement it and prevents players from overextending and microgodding a game. Again, a weakness that the Spershing lacks completely.