Flank speed

[Krieger Blitzer]

kiwi birds are pretty cool though. they dont have wings.

I know u like kiwi birds, but cats like them even more cause they are too helpless.
Convert them to kiwi birds & they will become the favourite dish for cats.

[idliketoplaybetter]

Well, voting is voting.

You will only ruin more of the fun stuff in the game and more stupid threads will come up in order to fullfil new gameplay picture.
Thing is, there is a reason why Coh is Coh and not men of war or anything else. This is exactly because of the abilities and random events generated by player or engine.

Because, apparently majority, of players don't get it/can't play it as is, we are gonna lose the rest.

I am disappearing again. This is only more depressing.

Tarakancheg, remember all my prophecies.

Was I right about everything? modest and rhetoric question..

[Krieger Blitzer]

Voting is a method of which a small margin of the communiy players can participate with their opinion over a certain period of time to provide ideas & insights.. however, the devs are not inclined to always follow the results, regardless whether the outcome is either positive or negative.. and there has been various occasions before when that was the case.

For example, if somebody creates a poll that all heavy tanks should be removed from the game with overwhelming majority voting positive, would it mean that devs would have to achieve that? Absolutely not.

Speaking of which, apparently here Kwok seems to be personally supporting the change as his tendency being a community player himself favors the removal of the ability, and this could be due to his personal preferences or other reasons.

And while i don't exactly applaud this approach of his, yet i understand that every player has his playstyle so i am not really blaming him for trying to get this change implemented.

My opinion on this was clear though; that this ability is one rooted part of the game.. and it helps making the game more passive & dynamic with aggressive flanking maneuvers, therefore i am against the removal of the ability from the game specifically given how it's limited to few units which are currently unique compared to other units of the same category, thanks to this particular ability.

Another reason why i am against the change, is the vague answers provided on how exactly the change would be compensated.. it was mentioned that basic speed values of such units could be modified in return, but no solid list of new values were provided. Meaning that this could either easily get overdone or badly underestimated. Potentially leading to an unpleasant result where these units could suddenly over-perform.. or be significantly downgraded.


From my perspective nonetheless, as i mentioned; i am letting this poll be.. not trying to create much fuss about it, since i actually find it not so much of a big deal if the ability remains or gets deleted, yet i expressed my concerns.. to which it might be worth to mention that i could have been a lot more stubborn & suppressive of the idea if i wanted to undertake this topic as more of a serious matter.. which at the moment i really don't. As i think that this change after all would highly depend on how it will be compensated on the other hand, as previously stated.

So, for now.. i will wait to see.

[Warhawks97]

Tell me, what will be the difference between Cromwell & CW 75 Sherman after removal of Flank Speed?
& How are Comets going to fight Panthers & Tigers??

Lmao, really?
The cromwell has a 100% better base acceleration than a sherman, has more than 50% higher top speed and is harder to hit by most guns. It is getting out of harms way better than any other tank, flank speed or not. Its acceleration is twice that of an current Hellcat and its Top speed is only topped by M10/M18 which have weaker armor and less HP.

Comet? Current comet has 50% better acceleration than a Firefly and 50% higher top speed and while costing much less than those while housing an equally powerfull gun. I bet when i would say that Firefly needs a buff/cost reduction of flank speed, you would answer: "No, it is good as it is, no change needed". So tell me, when a cumbersome 550 MP/80 fuel tank is good in its current configuration, why does a tank, that is in every regard better than that said Firefly for a lower price at the same time is all out of a sudden unable to fight Panthers or Tigers? So, if you dont feel Firefly needs flank speed ability or lower cost in order to be a counter to Panthers and Tigers, you will just make yourself a liar when you say a Comet cant without flank speed. Stop fooling yourself.

Sdkfz 222?
It has the best base acceleration of all wheeled vehicles with an acceleration of "6" and a top speed of "7". M20 and Puma have "4.5" acceleration and "9" and "8.5" top speed respectively.

So the sdkfz 222 already is the most agile vehicle in the game that can get away from danger faster than anyone else.

"Give them much better basic speed values" wouldn't be an appropriate solution either because that could make them OP actually.

depends how far you set them. However, having a speed of 6 for a Tank is quite good considering all others usually barely hit 4 speed. Only very light TD´s are slightly faster with 7 speed or 8. So i dont think a speed buff is even needed here.

A mild acceleration boost or whatever won't make them any unique either.

Yes, it would. A Tank with a 17 pdr that has a faster acceleration than any other tank in the game would make them unique for sure. Maybe Comet doesnt need to have the cromwell level. Perhaps "2.7" acceleration would be enough. It would still be the most mobile tank in the game with one of the most powerfull guns for a cost that is less than that of a Tank IV H or Firefly or E8. Tell me how that is not unique pls!

My opinion on this was clear though; that this ability is one rooted part of the game.. and it helps making the game more passive & dynamic with aggressive flanking maneuvers, therefore i am against the removal of the ability from the game specifically given how it's limited to few units which are currently unique compared to other units of the same category, thanks to this particular ability.

Flanking moves? Lol. I havent seen flanking moves with flank speed ever i think. M10 cant even flank due to its low turret speed.

Flank speed is uaually used in two situations:

1. Troll your enemie by frontally rush lets say an AT gun, get passed it before it can effectively stop the tank with flank speed, and troll everything and everyone with insane forward and backwards moves, with instant stop, reverse, stop and full forward speed movments.

2. Drive foolishly into harms way, notice the mistake you just did, click no-brainer flank speed and rush away backwards in light speed.


Did you know that:
1. In coh 1 flank speed does not exist for units like M10. Cromwell has flank speed but makes it just as fast the regular cromwell in BK. The 222 has flank speed but dies super quickly to small arms fire, so it has a trade off. So even in vcoh flank speed isnt nearly as stupid as it is in BK.
The base acceleration in vcoh for a cromwell is "2.2" and stop speed is "5". The Sherman was even faster with "5.2" speed. With flank speed cromwell reached "7.5" top speed.

So to compare: Cromwell in vcoh had "2.2" acceleration and "5" speed. Flank speed boosted this to "6.6" and "7.5". In BK its "3" and "6.4" as base value and boosted up to "9" and "8". So, combined also with deacceleratio, this tank speeds up and slows down faster than an m20 and also has a top speed of a Puma.

The 222 in BK with flank speed reaches an acceleration of 12. Thats almost 3 times that of an M20. And its top speed goes up to 11.25. In vcoh its the same but its not nearly as powerfull in terms of damage output while taking a lot more damage (and requires more tec, so it has some tec balance).

If you ask me, the two units that have the fastest base acceleration of all tanks and vehicles already dont need abilities that makes them accelerate three times as fast as any other.

The M10 base speed is currently 5. If we manage to get this base speed up to roughly "5.4" (vcoh has it set to 6.4) then we ould not need a flank speed that boosts it up to currently 7.65.

2. In coh 2 "Blitzkrieg" ability is unlocked at vet 1 for german tanks and brits get a similiar one for their comet later. Its the most hated ability in the game because it enables players to get away from punishment when having made a big mistake. in 90% of the cases, this ability is used as an "emergency quick escape button" rather than for actual attack moves. In BK its the same. Flank speed gets activated in 90% of all cases to escape punishment that would result from a fatal micro and tactic error that would otherwhise result in a loss.

So flank speed or whatever we call it doesnt make the game more dyncamic or less passive or anything. It just makes it more stupid. And as i said, not even vcoh to my memory was so stupid to add this but i gonna check it. Only the 222 seems to have had flank speed there but the vehicle took lots of damage even from small arms and BARs, so it had a trade off there for the insane mobility.


So as conclusion: Do we really need the units with already the highest base acceleration need to have abilities that makes them accelerate three times as fast as the next best unit of its kind? And do we need Tanks that can outrun even the lightest and fastest vehicles?

[Krieger Blitzer]

The cromwell has a 100% better base acceleration than a sherman, has 50% higher top speed and is harder to hit by most guns. It is getting out of harms way better than any other tank, flank speed or not. Its acceleration is twice that of an current Hellcat and its Top speed is only topped by M10/M18 which have weaker armor and less HP.

Not going to revise ur calculations, but the Cromwell without Flank Speed is hardly different from CW 75mm Sherman in RA doc as both would serve exactly the same role.. the Flank Speed always made the Cromwell very different from the Sherman.

Comet? Current comet has 50% better acceleration than a Firefly and 50% higher top speed and while costing much less than those while housing an equally powerfull gun. I bet when i would say that Firefly needs a buff/cost reduction of flank speed, you would answer: "No, it is good as it is, no change needed". So tell me, when a cumbersome 550 MP/80 fuel tank is good in its current configuration, why does a tank, that is in every regard better than that said Firefly for a lower price at the same time is all out of a sudden unable to fight Panthers or Tigers? So, if you dont feel Firefly needs flank speed ability or lower cost in order to be a counter to Panthers and Tigers, you will just make yourself a liar when you say a Comet cant without flank speed. Stop fooling yourself.

How did u forget that Firefly has static mode?? Firefly can fight off Tigers & Panthers thanks to that.. whereas Comet doesn't have this ability, the difference between Comet & Firefly was that Firefly is meant to be used at long range while Comet is meant to have the advantage of superior speed. Therefore, i wouldn't be fooling myself or be a liar if i were to say that Firefly now is fine (although i suggested giving it ALRS at vet2) but Comet won't be fine at all without Flank Speed knowing it's also later available.

Sdkfz 222?
It has the best base acceleration of all wheeled vehicles with an acceleration of "6" and a top speed of "7". M20 and Puma have "4.5" acceleration and "9" and "8.5" top speed respectively.

So the sdkfz 222 already is the most agile vehicle in the game that can get away from danger faster than anyone else.

Without the Flank Speed to escape, 222 will easily die to Recce.. armored AB jeep will also easily deal with it because 222 hardly hits that jeep.

It would still be the most mobile tank in the game with one of the most powerfull guns for a cost that is less than that of a Tank IV H or Firefly or E8. Tell me how that is not unique pls!

It's not unique because Comet requires 6 CP, it's in a different tier from Pz4 or Firefly.
Now don't tell me that buffing the Comet, giving back its old better armor, or changing the entire RE doc CP tech tree just to compensate with this uncalled change, would be ever an option...

Flank speed is uaually used in two situations:

1. Troll your enemie by frontally rush lets say an AT gun, get passed it before it can effectively stop the tank with flank speed, and troll everything and everyone with insane forward and backwards moves, with instant stop, reverse, stop and full forward speed movments.

2. Drive foolishly into harms way, notice the mistake you just did, click no-brainer flank speed and rush away backwards in light speed.

Axis TDs rely on armor for protection, whereas Allied TDs rely on overall mobility & Flank Speed.. not just to attack but also to escape, so it's also a form of defense & protection instead of relying on armor... The 2 scenarios u provided only highlight the attacking manuevers, but have u never seen them being rushed head on by inf & escaping only thanks to Flank Speed ability?

in 90% of the cases, this ability is used as an "emergency quick escape button" rather than for actual attack moves. In BK its the same. Flank speed gets activated in 90% of all cases to escape punishment that would result from a fatal micro and tactic error that would otherwhise result in a loss.

So what about being rushed by AT inf ?? That's not a tactical error by the TD player... it's not his fault. Flank Speed is his only possible way to protect his TDs by fleeing away due to lack of armor. Removing the Flank Speed would only force the player to build more MG nests to protect his TDs as he knows that escaping quickly isn't an option anymore.. leading to more camping gameplay style.

[Warhawks97]

Not going to revise ur calculations, but the Cromwell without Flank Speed is hardly different from CW 75mm Sherman in RA doc as both would serve exactly the same role.. the Flank Speed always made the Cromwell very different from the Sherman.

.... Having twice the acceleration speed and 50% more speed isnt enough for you to make a difference between units? LOL
Flank speed makes it even accelerate more than 3 times faster than a sherman and more than twice as fast. This is what you need to see a difference between units? Its like saying you see no difference between a Panzer IV gun and a Panther gun......

How did u forget that Firefly has static mode?? Firefly can fight off Tigers & Panthers thanks to that.. whereas Comet doesn't have this ability, the difference between Comet & Firefly was that Firefly is meant to be used at long range while Comet is meant to have the advantage of superior speed. Therefore, i wouldn't be fooling myself or be a liar if i were to say that Firefly now is fine (although i suggested giving it ALRS at vet2) but Comet won't be fine at all without Flank Speed knowing it's also later available.

Hehe, i knew you would come up with static mode. Most of the time its a suicide ability. Without command tank you have the same range as Panther but you cant move for a while while also being 25% easier to hit and you are helpess against fast rushing AT Pumas or schrecks. I barely see static modes being used on anything more costly than a stug III.

A Command tank with comet would give you also 65 range without making yourself a big ass target. I see fireflies in stationary modes only when besieging enemie bases and when covered by lots of units and having vision in all directions. Unless this favourable conditions are met, you just make yourself a big jucy target.
Also, down low you say you need flank speed to escape AT squads, but a firely can be put into stationary modes while being just as vulnerable to AT squads. So how can you say that a tank needs flank speed to escape AT rushes and at the same time propose to use stationary mode?

Thats why i once pushed for a removel of stationary modes on tanks since most of the time its not suited and not benefical for the tank. I asked for some temporarily range buffs like "accurate shooting" in exchange for slower reload and without hampering your ability to move.
Instead "Hull down" would take over the role of "stationary modes" whenever possible, granting range, accuracy and reload and defensive buffs while making yourself immobile. But so far stationary modes on tanks proofed to be more beneficial for your enemie under equal tactical situation.

It's not unique because Comet requires 6 CP, it's in a different tier from Pz4 or Firefly.
Now don't tell me that buffing the Comet, giving back its old better armor, or changing the entire RE doc CP tech tree just to compensate with this uncalled change, would be ever option...

You get it later and for lower cost while still having an overall better mobility as any other tank in the game. Its armor is better than that of any other TD as well.

Overall, the Jackson B suffers a lot more due to cost and mobility issues and costing a lot more. A 17 pdr tank with 6.6 acceleration when using flank speed and 7.5 flank speed is in my opinion not needed. Slight acceleration buff (or at least advantage over others) and things would be ok.

So what about being rushed by AT inf ?? That's not a tactical error by the TD player... it's not his fault. Flank Speed is his only possible way to protect his TDs by fleeing away due to lack of armor. Removing the Flank Speed would only force the player to build more MG nests to protect his TDs as he knows that escaping quickly isn't an option anymore.. leading to more camping gameplay style.

Leaving a lonley TD in the open unchecked without early warning is a tactical arror. A really bad one actually.

Anyways, M18 has only 1.5 acceleration and no one says it needs flank speed to escape AT squad rushes.

The sdkfz 222 accelerates 50% better than M20 or Puma and no one says they need flank speed to survive.

the cromwell and comet have out of all tanks the best chances to get away from these rushes. Even Panzer IV´s manage to revert quickly enough. You can smack an HE shell against them and retreat still fast enough.


What i mean about errors is that players rush mindless and without reconassaince into an AT gun, get hit and speed backwards in lightning speed. Rushing AT squads that attempt to rush a hidden or stationary defensive TD are usually seen early enough and repelled. Leaving a TD alone in the open without enough vision and not taking care for rushing AT squads btw is an critial error. As i said, Hellcat and a super slow acceleration and no flank speed and everything seems to be fine here.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Hehe, i knew you would come up with static mode. Most of the time its a suicide ability. Without command tank you have the same range as Panther but you cant move for a while while also being 25% easier to hit and you are helpess against fast rushing AT Pumas or schrecks. I barely see static modes being used on anything more costly than a stug III.

A Command tank with comet would give you also 65 range without making yourself a big ass target. I see fireflies in stationary modes only when besieging enemie bases and when covered by lots of units and having vision in all directions.

Firefly static mode gives +10 more range, reaching 70 range.. & 75 with vet2 Command tank, in addition to faster reload.
So not 65 range...

Anyways, M18 has only 1.5 acceleration and no one says it needs flank speed to escape AT squad rushes.

Hellcat has super fast turret, good HE & 50.cal gunner.
Other TDs don't (Jackson & Wolverine in particular).


Anyway; i stated my concern.

[Warhawks97]

A Command tank with comet would give you also 65 range without making yourself a big ass target. I see fireflies in stationary modes only when besieging enemie bases and when covered by lots of units and having vision in all directions.

Leaving you still as big juicy target which is why i dont use this ability unless i have a certain artillery, vision and position advantage. 25% increased received accuracy is quite a big deal. You just dont get away from anything using this ability.

And units like Jagdpanther or stuff a like or ALRS will completely shred you into pieces anyways by outranging your tank and outarmor your tank no matter what.

The comet would, with or without flank speed, still have a good edge in terms of mobility and cost to a degree that i would say a slight acceleration boost would be enough.

Hellcat has super fast turret, good HE & 50.cal gunner.
Other TDs don't (Jackson & Wolverine in particular).

m10 achilles and Comet have also HE.
Tbh, i would rather get rid of that weird "APHE" round from M10 which, just as other single shot abilities, bypass any reload, and instead giving it small means of self defense like the Hellcat or M10 achilles. So with enough ammo you can fire HVAP at a target and APHE a second later. But thats another topic.

And that still leaves us with the formula 1 race tank aka cromwell (which, as i said, even in vcoh isnt nearly as dump) and sdfkz 222 lightning vehicle that can literally turn on a dime with a G factor of 100.

Anyway; i stated my concern.

Yes, you cant instantly rush backwards anymore with insane speed once you rushed into an AT gun and trying to escape to revert the mistake.

[Warhawks97]

One thing i could think off is some sort of middle ground. Right now the most mobile units have also access to flank speed turning them into super mobile troll cars.

If the Cromwell would have more or less some normal tank values, like perhaps 2.2 or 2.5 basic acceleration and normal speed of 5 instead of 6, and if the modifiers are not trippling those values and instead give modest boosts in a way that it still gives the tank the potential to strike quickly somewhere without enbaling it to easily escape punishment.

The acceleration would be increased by a factor of 1.75 (50%) instead of 3 (300%). The acceleration would then be arround 3.5 or 3.75 rather than 9. The stop speed would be 5 which would translate into 6.375 with flank speed. Deaceleration would be unchanged.

Same for the 20 mm scout car. Basic acceleration would be 4.5 like other wheeled cars have it. Flank speed would boost it to 6.75 instead of 18. Top speed would stay arround 9.3 with flank speed and 7.5 without flank speed.


That would be something that i could think off.

[Krieger Blitzer]

One thing i could think off is some sort of middle ground. Right now the most mobile units have also access to flank speed turning them into super mobile troll cars.

If the Cromwell would have more or less some normal tank values, like perhaps 2.2 or 2.5 basic acceleration and normal speed of 5 instead of 6, and if the modifiers are not trippling those values and instead give modest boosts in a way that it still gives the tank the potential to strike quickly somewhere without enbaling it to easily escape punishment.

The acceleration would be increased by a factor of 1.75 (50%) instead of 3 (300%). The acceleration would then be arround 3.5 or 3.75 rather than 9. The stop speed would be 6 which would translate into 6.375 with flank speed. Deaceleration would be unchanged.

Same for the 20 mm scout car. Basic acceleration would be 4.5 like other wheeled cars have it. Flank speed would boost it to 6.75 instead of 18. Top speed would stay arround 9.3 with flank speed and 7.5 without flank speed.


That would be something that i could think off.

If you mean tweaking the Flank Speed ability itself rather than having to outright entirely remove it from the game, then i don't mind.

[Warhawks97]

If you mean tweaking the Flank Speed ability itself rather than having to outright entirely remove it from the game, then i don't mind.

tweaking the mobility base stats of affected vehicles to be in line with other tanks and then tweaking the flank speed ability itself, yes.

[Krieger Blitzer]

If you mean tweaking the Flank Speed ability itself rather than having to outright entirely remove it from the game, then i don't mind.

tweaking the mobility base stats of affected vehicles to be in line with other tanks and then tweaking the flank speed ability itself, yes.

This would be a fair way to approach it.

[Consti255]

naah, remove that mf.

[kwok]

bump pls

[CGarr]

Kind of impartial on this one, although the units that would lose flank speed should probably be compensated in some way if the change is implemented.

I don't think I've ever seen this ability be used in a way that I found annoying though, even by players with good micro and aggressive playstyles like Figree, so I might be biased.