PE Nashorn

[Kasbah]

Hi,

I know this is not new but PE Nashorn is almost never used. For the same price you get a long-barreled jagdpanzer IV which, excepting the gun, is better in everything.
As some stated in the old forum, especially Warkhawks, I would like seeing a Panther G back in this doc. So my suggestion is to replace the Nashorn with the Panther, and leave the Nashorn for the Scorched Earth doctrine where it perfectly fits.
Also, the Luftwaffe's Panther is too weak and it doesn't make much sense in this doc in my opinion.

What do you think?

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Agreed. I somewhere already said that it will be awesome if docs will be like that: No tigers in blitz doc, Panter A with mass production unlock (so it will continue the idea of pz4 mass prod) + Panter G Ace as call in. Terror will have Tiger late version + King tiger. TH as in old times: Panther G, early version Tiger + Ace as call in.

[Warhawks97]

Agreed. I somewhere already said that it will be awesome if docs will be like that: No tigers in blitz doc, Panter A with mass production unlock (so it will continue the idea of pz4 mass prod) + Panter G Ace as call in. Terror will have Tiger late version + King tiger. TH as in old times: Panther G, early version Tiger + Ace as call in.

Panther A in BK doc (G as reward)

Old PE elite armor doc with Panther G, Tiger (later version as reward) and KT.

Terror Tiger and KT (or here the late version Tiger instead normal one or as reward)



btw: Nashorn cost are now a bit cheaper as IV/70 now since last patch but in general yeah, mainly people got for IV/70 and then JP. In SE Nashorn fits well.
Luftaffe Panther is weak because of silly coaxial MG:) (Same as the brits standard sherman)

[lunarwolf]

I must admit I don't use the nashorn in TH doc (in fact I don't think I ever built it except as SE doc). not because of price tbh, but mostly because as TH I usually am more mobile and push through which the nashorn doesn't really suit, since it's more a camping/ambush tank due to its very weak armour. also the nashorn is 2 cp points and honestly I tend to go hertzer->jagpanzer->jagpanther->jagtiger when spending points to unlock tanks in TH

I would love to have the panther ausf g back in TH - but it was removed along with Tigers, because it was argued that panther is not a dedicated TH. which always made me laugh because a panther's main role is a tank killer first and foremost. anyway I am OK not having it for the sake of balance between ally/axis and diversity between axis docs even though I admit I miss it. (even WH Def doc had it a while back)

speaking of panthers the one from PE Luft needs a buff because it's a Sherman 76 (without turret gunner and double sandbags) disguised as a panther currently. I don't believe for a second that it has the same armour/hp of other panthers

[Krieger Blitzer]

Weird, for me.. the Panther D seem to be having even a better armor than the other Panthers actually!

[Kasbah]

Well, even if I miss A LOT the call-in Tiger, Ialso like the TH doctrine as it is now, purely TH. I can understand if the Panther and the Tiger (not to mention KT) got back probably the jagds wouldn't be used anymore. This said, the Nashorn doesn't fit at all in TH doc and I think replacing it with the Panther, that for the sake of balance should obviously cost more cp than the Nashorn, is a good idea

And yes, Luft Panther is not only weak but a little nonsense. What is a Panther doing in a air doc? I know the Goering division had some but if we talk about history a huge numbers of Tigers went to the Waffen-SS and there is none actually in the game.

[Warhawks97]

I must admit I don't use the nashorn in TH doc (in fact I don't think I ever built it except as SE doc). not because of price tbh, but mostly because as TH I usually am more mobile and push through which the nashorn doesn't really suit, since it's more a camping/ambush tank due to its very weak armour. also the nashorn is 2 cp points and honestly I tend to go hertzer->jagpanzer->jagpanther->jagtiger when spending points to unlock tanks in TH

true.

I would love to have the panther ausf g back in TH - but it was removed along with Tigers, because it was argued that panther is not a dedicated TH. which always made me laugh because a panther's main role is a tank killer first and foremost. anyway I am OK not having it for the sake of balance between ally/axis and diversity between axis docs even though I admit I miss it. (even WH Def doc had it a while back)

It made me laughing too. Actually every axis tank turned into a tank destroyer or got used to do so (the stugs and Tank IV´s had been inf support tanks but received long barreld guns to fight tanks mainly to stand against the masses of russian tanks). The Tiger was created mainly as breakthrough tank but it finally fought as a tankbuster running from one front area to another wherever enemie tanks engaged. I mean in BK main job of tigers without top turret gunner is to fight enemie tanks. And the Panther received such a high performence high velocity gun to fight enemie armor. Weird i know.

speaking of panthers the one from PE Luft needs a buff because it's a Sherman 76 (without turret gunner and double sandbags) disguised as a panther currently. I don't believe for a second that it has the same armour/hp of other panthers

uh. The armor is the same as those of other Panthers (The G seems still to be a bit more sturdy). Also gun penetration values are equal to other panthers and much better as those of shermans.

Well, even if I miss A LOT the call-in Tiger, Ialso like the TH doctrine as it is now, purely TH. I can understand if the Panther and the Tiger (not to mention KT) got back probably the jagds wouldn't be used anymore. This said, the Nashorn doesn't fit at all in TH doc and I think replacing it with the Panther, that for the sake of balance should obviously cost more cp than the Nashorn, is a good idea

And yes, Luft Panther is not only weak but a little nonsense. What is a Panther doing in a air doc? I know the Goering division had some but if we talk about history a huge numbers of Tigers went to the Waffen-SS and there is none actually in the game.

well. Adding only a Panther but no tigers? not sure. Either all or nothing:D

[Kasbah]

Well, adding also a Tiger would need more doctrine rework than replacing a Nashorn with a Panther. And as I said, if the Panther is there, I would surely build less pure TH. So if we also add the Tiger it would make things worse and I'm sure I won't be the only one to go for them instead of hetzer, jagdpanzer, jagpanther, jagdtiger...

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

I believe that TH`s still will be in use even with tigers and panthers, just need to organise tech tree smartly, i mean in old times tanks and tankbusters trees were separated and mainly all were going for tanks due to there better all arround perfomance. But if trees could be like pz4 > jagdpz4 > Panther > Jagdpanter th's still will be reliable. Currently its really stupid that th players producing Jagdpanthers and hetzers for hunting commando and m4 shermans....especially when alies team have no armor doc th guy feel himself really jobless.

[Warhawks97]

Well, adding also a Tiger would need more doctrine rework than replacing a Nashorn with a Panther. And as I said, if the Panther is there, I would surely build less pure TH. So if we also add the Tiger it would make things worse and I'm sure I won't be the only one to go for them instead of hetzer, jagdpanzer, jagpanther, jagdtiger...

dont you remember the old TH doc? Hetzer, IV/70, JP, JT and then Tank IV, Panther, Tiger, KT. Still all of them got used depending on playerstyle. One of my mates ran for Tigers and Panthers and playing aggressivley. Others more carefully which based their game on ambushes and on Jagdpanther and JT for offense. And sometimes in longer games i used even Panther and Jagdpanther together. I then had just those two tanks and an inf squad. I payed a lot for them but i had a powerfull army still facing at the other side lots of enemie infantry and tanks. Was quite fun and panthers etc did not replace the tankbusters. It was always situational. This pure TH thing came first in 4.7

I believe that TH`s still will be in use even with tigers and panthers, just need to organise tech tree smartly, i mean in old times tanks and tankbusters trees were separated and mainly all were going for tanks due to there better all arround perfomance. But if trees could be like pz4 > jagdpz4 > Panther > Jagdpanter th's still will be reliable. Currently its really stupid that th players producing Jagdpanthers and hetzers for hunting commando and m4 shermans....especially when alies team have no armor doc th guy feel himself really jobless.

Thats cool. Nice idea. It would look like the tree as it is currently. Hetzer in fist line and Tank IV below. Then from Hetzer also to tank IV/70 and below the tiger optional as unlock. From IV/70 to Jagdpanther and from Jagdpanther optional to Panther and finally from JP to JT and below JT optional KT. Idea looks cool though i would prefer the other way arround^^. Like Battle tanks mainly in first unlock line and to each battle tank one optional Tankhunter as unlock. Like if you dont have the res anymore to get a battletank with a certain gun you can build a cheap Tankbuster version carrying the same canon. That idea could be tought further and more detailed.

And TH doc is quite often jobless. Thanks to better effective tank production of US armor doc this doc has at least a bit more to do then before but its role is still minor in teamfights and seldomly neccessary.

[Alman]

i think TH with panther and tiger will too powerfull. I am TH player and this doctire is fine. Maybe price reduction may decrease Panzer4 too. It can be fine. And Jagdtiger's can be more armored on front. It is nearly useless and 17 pounders can penetrate its front armor.

[Warhawks97]

i think TH with panther and tiger is too powerfull. I am TH player and this doctire is fine. Maybe price reduction may decrease Panzer4 too. It can be fine. And Jagdtiger's can be more armored on front. It is nearly useless and 17 pounders can penetrate its front armor.

One thing i dont really get is why this doc would suddenly be more powerfull just because it has more tanks? If you remember all these tanks had been available but also very expensive. Right now you have less tanks but cheaper than in old doc. So what exactly would become OP on it? I could understand when the doc would suddenly receive a new elite inf squad or more arty but simply more tanks available which will never occure at the same time wouldnt make the doc stronger or weaker. With JT i agree.

[Kasbah]

Of course I remember the old tech tree, this is why I am saying that in those times I almost never built tankhunters because, as Sukin said, tanks had overall better performances and could deal way better against infantry. I waited for the call-in fully equiped vet 3 Tiger for 1500 mp who was a total game breaker (and could hardly be penetrated by 76') and then I went for the two more Tigers that could be built with some Panthers, or waited for the King Tiger the only version it was available. I almost never built JP as Tiger was way enough, and only sometimes built JT if the game like a Kursk battle with a lot of ressources

I am suggesting to change Nashorn for Panther because it's less work for the devs, no full doctrine rework and less things too discuss, so maybe more likely to happen. Also because I pretty like much the doc as it is now. However I like Sukin idea: pz4 > jagdpz4 > Panther > Jagdpanter to make TH still reliable.

Also, I agree with Alman. Panzer IV should get a price decrase. 550mp and 70 (80?) fuel is way too much.

[Warhawks97]

Of course I remember the old tech tree, this is why I am saying that in those times I almost never built tankhunters because, as Sukin said, tanks had overall better performances and could deal way better against infantry. I waited for the call-in fully equiped vet 3 Tiger for 1500 mp who was a total game breaker (and could hardly be penetrated by 76') and then I went for the two more Tigers that could be built with some Panthers, or waited for the King Tiger the only version it was available. I almost never built JP as Tiger was way enough, and only sometimes built JT if the game like a Kursk battle with a lot of ressources

I am suggesting to change Nashorn for Panther because it's less work for the devs, no full doctrine rework and less things too discuss, so maybe more likely to happen. Also because I pretty like much the doc as it is now. However I like Sukin idea: pz4 > jagdpz4 > Panther > Jagdpanter to make TH still reliable.

Also, I agree with Alman. Panzer IV should get a price decrase. 550mp and 70 (80?) fuel is way too much.

Firts that doc had tiger ace and later KT. I mean sure, TH had been less often build but i dont consider it as a problem (Those are mainly used in camo and defensive and so contribute to a more static gameplay. Thats why i liked the old more as axis TH´s are pretty often used in ambushes only and thus defensively. Axis TH´s had been just as rare as in reality but therefore very effective in their role stopping entire tank platoons alone.


Also suggestetion was not Panzer IV-> Jagpz IV. There are two Jagdpanzer IV (actually three: IV/A in def doc with panther canon and IV/70 in th doc and the IV/48 in def doc and in TH doc as reward for Hetzer. So it would be Panzer IV->Hetzer/Jagdpanzer IV/48, Tiger-> Jagdpanzer IV/70, Panther-> Jagdpanther, KT->JT. Or the other way arround which would mean first the TH´s unlocked and then the Battletanks. Or without Tiger and KT and the Panther unlock would come after Jagdpanther or JP after Panther. Currently Nashorn requires IV/70.


About tank IV price suggestion: Currently a 76 sherman cost 55 fuel and up to 4 in upkeep (after supply yard upgrade approx 3). A Tank IV H 2 in upkeep. I also said that i wouldnt mind about Tank IV cost decrease but the balance against 76 sherman and 76 guns at all would need to be rebalanced. Currently a Tank IV H has much higher chance to pen 76 sherman as the 76 gun to pen Tank IV. From the basic cost the Tank IV H would cost as much as a easy eight with basic cost and thus booth would need to be pretty equal. The BK doc pays already 55 fuel compared to US armor doc 52 for e8 after mass prod. This chance would make Tank IV effectively cheaper and better at the same time.

[Kasbah]

I think you can keep dreaming before there will be a such huge doctrine rework... The devs will also need to delete actual cp slots to replace them with the new tanks so...which ones? I pretty much like TH squads options.

The PE Panzer IV should get a slight price decrease, the BK one is more than OK with mass prod. I'm thinking about 500 mp and 70 fuel for example (I think fuel is 80 now)

[Warhawks97]

I think you can keep dreaming before there will be a such huge doctrine rework... The devs will also need to delete actual cp slots to replace them with the new tanks so...which ones? I pretty much like TH squads options.

The PE Panzer IV should get a slight price decrease, the BK one is more than OK with mass prod. I'm thinking about 500 mp and 70 fuel for example (I think fuel is 80 now)

it probably keeps a dream. But replacing Nashorn with Panther wouldnt be that hard to do. It could keep the current slot. 1 CP Hetzer, 2 for IV/70 and 3 for the Panther unlock.


I am still not sure about panther cost. I mean it once cost 100 fuel and 75 after mass prod in BK doc in used this tank very often for that cost and it was a usefull tank. Now further dropping without rebalance it against counterpart units... i am really not sure. And what shall the J then cost? They are getting cheaper than the counterpart 76 shermans but keeping superior.