Doctrinal unlocks

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Warhawks97
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Re: Doctrinal unlocks

Post by Warhawks97 »

idliketoplaybetter wrote:
13 Jun 2022, 17:42


It's been always about the same strats for a jerky players , I simply cant undersatnd how your possible rebuild will help with it?
That is rhetorical question.
Make every unlock a special one instead of having same unlocks accross all factions which, ironically, are often a must have unless you have far superior skills or simply like to suffer more than you have to.

I mean for reference, i do play vcoh from time to time and there its a lot more interesting and exciting to see how many real options you have with build orders, unit set ups, tecing speed, doc unlocks etc. It has something called flexibility and diversity and there is no brain dead unit that is always a good option (like rush 105 arty, rush maultier, rush medium tanks). There is no unit that is absurdly cost effective compared to others.

vcoh has more depth in my opinion despite having far less units available. I would love to see BK being an upgrade to vcoh, adding even more depth.

On a macro level you always have to adjust but in BK you can play down the same strat. It doesnt matter what your opponent does, this one strat you play down every game is simply always good. Thats what bugs me in BK. It doesnt matter what your opponent does, rushing 105 arty is always a good thing. Rushing medium tanks is also always a pretty good decision, regardless what your enemie does.
This and the said repetetive unlocks like 76 sherman and m10 or stugs or whatever. Some unlocks are always a pretty good pick while others are not really relevant and even a suicide decision.

Edit:
Let me make an example.

Unlocks that are always a good pick and which most rush for or which are even mandatory unlocks:
Panzer IV
76 Sherman
Tigers in prop doc
Walking stuka
105 Arty and any SPG
Grille
Panther (Ace)
M10
off map arty
....

Unlocks that are in many games barely relevant or even suicide unlocks:
RA doc 114 mm arty barrage (ive never ever seen this ability in 10 years of playing)
RA global sector smoke
Mark Target in TS doc
....

and there is a lot of other stuff that only get unlocked very late into the game without any real effect or which can be unlocked only when your teammate provides the necessary unlocks.

Like imagine a game in which player decide to pick RA, AB and perhaps inf doc. But none of them unlocks M10 or 76 sherman or Firefly and no Priest and instead go for airstrikes, Rangers (but no inf mass production) and RA sector smoke screen. The would get crushed when your enemie would show up with BK doc Panzer spam and Maultier, TS doc panzer spam and Luftwaffe wirbelwinds.

Thats what i mean with many mandatory unlocks to ensure survival. I feel like there is no such thing like "options" in this game.
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Consti255
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Re: Doctrinal unlocks

Post by Consti255 »

Warhawks97 wrote:
13 Jun 2022, 18:33

Unlocks that are in many games barely relevant or even suicide unlocks:
RA doc 114 mm arty barrage (ive never ever seen this ability in 10 years of playing)
RA global sector smoke
Mark Target in TS doc
....
- SE boobytraps and sabotage squad
- Mortar bunker
- Inf doc emplacements
- RAF airstrike cooldown

The list goes on.

Ever tried going the SE sabotage path in a serious game or even when you took the upper hand early on to make the boobys kinda worth?
Absolut nonsense since you get steamrolled since you dont have good TDs or anything else to stop the enemy.
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Krieger Blitzer
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Re: Doctrinal unlocks

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

Consti255 wrote:
13 Jun 2022, 19:17
Ever tried going the SE sabotage path in a serious game or even when you took the upper hand early on to make the boobys kinda worth?
What is this??
The booby traps in SE doc are so effective & important.. not sure where u get this experience from.
And no, it doesn't have to be used early game.. even in late game it's useful.

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Re: Doctrinal unlocks

Post by tarakancheg »

I just want to add to this debate 1 thing.
There will ALWAYS be Meta unlocks if "basic unlocks" become free, then people will rush other stuff like CQB Inf or arty path for inf. 101St for air and cheaper shermans for armor.

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Re: Doctrinal unlocks

Post by Consti255 »

Krieger Blitzer wrote:
13 Jun 2022, 22:00
Consti255 wrote:
13 Jun 2022, 19:17
Ever tried going the SE sabotage path in a serious game or even when you took the upper hand early on to make the boobys kinda worth?
What is this??
The booby traps in SE doc are so effective & important.. not sure where u get this experience from.
And no, it doesn't have to be used early game.. even in late game it's useful.
Ive watched many of your videos.
There is not a single one, where you go staight for the booby unlock and overall sabotage tree. Because it is a absolutely maniac move.

Of course boobys are effective early and late, but i think you miss understood me. I mean, you get punished, for unlocking stuff in your doctrine instead of the "basic" unlocks like a Hetzer or Panzer 4. EVEN if you won ground early on to make good use of a boobytrap and sabotage scenario. You still get punished not to went straight into TDs and that is what bothers me.
That you are forced to unlock the same stuff over and over again before you can make a clear unlock pattern and playstyle choice for that game.
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Re: Doctrinal unlocks

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

I don't think that such stuff is necessary to unlock in every single game. I can see SE doc surviving just with the 75mm Puma & Marder.3 while unlocking other things apart from the TDs, it highly depends on the situation.. the same thing for AB doc as an example; having the M10/Hellcat isn't always mandatory, and the 76 Sherman there makes total sense as unlock.. having it as basic default unit, would allow AB doc to be much more aggressive than it is already.

These "basic" units are not really basic.. 76 Sherman in AB doc is quite deadly at a certain stage of the game.
We already have basic units available by default, that includes; 75mm Sherman, Pz4 early versions, Cromwell, Pz3, etc.
Anything bigger isn't really basic.. and the same unit can have different "weight" from 1 doc to another. Therefore i don't support the proposal of making these so called "basic units" CP free.

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Re: Doctrinal unlocks

Post by idliketoplaybetter »

Debate is a loud word. I just hope this people don't study law or something. Cause this is Amber Heard lawyears level of logic :D

Analogy with vCoh is simply out of touch. Go watch old Sunday Night Rounds and see how and what people do back then.
Professional game is something that would clear ur understanding, not turtle games.

This is a lot more counterintiutive than u think, the more stuff u make "not basic" the more linear game will be, or rephrase this, How rework will change the atitude of people who are running for Meta units and find Meta unit build orders?
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Warhawks97
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Re: Doctrinal unlocks

Post by Warhawks97 »

Krieger Blitzer wrote:
14 Jun 2022, 02:41
I don't think that such stuff is necessary to unlock in every single game. I can see SE doc surviving just with the 75mm Puma & Marder.3 while unlocking other things apart from the TDs, it highly depends on the situation.. the same thing for AB doc as an example; having the M10/Hellcat isn't always mandatory, and the 76 Sherman there makes total sense as unlock.. having it as basic default unit, would allow AB doc to be much more aggressive than it is already.

These "basic" units are not really basic.. 76 Sherman in AB doc is quite deadly at a certain stage of the game.
We already have basic units available by default, that includes; 75mm Sherman, Pz4 early versions, Cromwell, Pz3, etc.
Anything bigger isn't really basic.. and the same unit can have different "weight" from 1 doc to another. Therefore i don't support the proposal of making these so called "basic units" CP free.
A TD like M10 or stug isnt "bigger". I mean what do you understand as "bigger"? A Bigger gun with good armor piercing capabilities? Or whats your definition of "Bigger"? Is a F2 Panzer IV "Bigger"?

The cromwells, early panzer IV models and early sherman dont really help you when your opponent rushed medium tanks unless that guy is a complete fool.

And when three doctrines share the same unlock, it is pretty much a basic factional unit.
PE has honestly the best chance to survive a different unlock path thx to its 75 mm Marder. TS doc in particular due to its F2 being a non-unlock. Armor doc has also a good position thx to its M10 being a 0 CP unit. There you can go whatever you want (engis, arty, vehicle cap points etc) without risking to be lost against medium tank rush/spam.

But as AB you get insanely punished when not going for M10 and 76 shermans relatively early. I watched replays, played against players and tried it myself to go the AB inf path first or weapon drops. It works only untill the enemie starts spamming medium tanks with MP40 Volks. I have had games with 85% map controle and thought i can go a different route than M10/76. But a few medium tanks crushed that dream and non of my mates has gotten any armor unlock. The RL rifle isnt that strong and the AT HT has a good chance not to penetrate and thats it. Stopping a medium tank rush and spam without TD´s or medium tanks by your own is nothing short of a suicide.



tarakancheg wrote:
13 Jun 2022, 22:34
I just want to add to this debate 1 thing.
There will ALWAYS be Meta unlocks if "basic unlocks" become free, then people will rush other stuff like CQB Inf or arty path for inf. 101St for air and cheaper shermans for armor.
Well, these are then doctrinal metas. Armor doc is a good example since it doesnt need to unlock M10´s. Some use the Combat engi meta, others the tank commander arty meta, others mass-production meta and others unlock free ammo. But you dont get punished by doing this unlike its the case with inf or AB.

idliketoplaybetter wrote:
14 Jun 2022, 08:02
Debate is a loud word. I just hope this people don't study law or something. Cause this is Amber Heard lawyears level of logic :D
This is a normal debate. I feel sorry when you cant distinguish between a debate with arguments and a psychotic women and its crazy lawyer.

Analogy with vCoh is simply out of touch. Go watch old Sunday Night Rounds and see how and what people do back then.
Professional game is something that would clear ur understanding, not turtle games.

This is a lot more counterintiutive than u think, the more stuff u make "not basic" the more linear game will be, or rephrase this, How rework will change the atitude of people who are running for Meta units and find Meta unit build orders?
Dude, i did watch all the top players tournaments. I did that in the past frequently and ieven watch tournaments today sometimes.
So stop assuming things that are not true and dont act is if you are the "most super cool coh bad boy".


I am not saying there arent metas or build orders, but vcoh seem to have a lot more of them per faction and doctrine. I have yet to see a AB, Armor and Inf doc player unlocking M10´s and 76 Shermans via CP´s.

You can play down different tec orders, build orders etc. Something BK doesnt really offer due to very strict tec systems and doctrines wasting CP´s for common units such as Panzer IV´s and M10´s.

And what is wrong to have howitzers locked behind 5 CP´s 450 MP and 75 fuel rather than 2 CP and 375 MP/25 fuel as BK does it? Nothing.
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Re: Doctrinal unlocks

Post by idliketoplaybetter »

Debate with arguments that arent even fit as arguments. Examples that are not adding up on the subject of the problem.
How more obvious you can get to understand you see problem cause u want to see it?

I am not acting like one, I want to point, you seem to comprehend nothing about gameplay and even more, you are not playing the game at all anymore. It's just cringe how and why people meant to react to this threads all the time. It has no basis AT FKN ALL. Like your point of view has to be worth something, when you cant even prove it with an example that shows it.

If I would have agreed to your changes after "I found nice example video", this logic discrepancy would have not been existed. That is how this garbage works. You just literally ignore this part of the "debate" :D omg

U fkd up to prove ur point and pretend like nothing happened and we should discuss it further :DDDD

Come now
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Re: Doctrinal unlocks

Post by Red »

For me "experience", which is required for CP unlocks, is just another resource like manpower, ammo and fuel. Only the method of gathering this resource is different. Hence, I see CP very much as a part of the cost-balancing going on.

I do not think it would be a good balance, if in games other than 1 vs 1 one of the players could just hang back and save all resources to go and build a superior unit. This could lead to combinations, e.g. WH Def Doc & PE TS Doc, where one player acts purely defensive on a relatively small area while the other will then go straight to fielding a unit the opponents have a lot of difficulties countering.

Do I like having to spend one CP to unlock the Panzer IV F2 when playing PE Luft Doc? No. Have I cursed when I went for 88mm emplacements first and then needed a "real" tank, but did not have the experience for this one CP? Definitly!
But is this a problem of the CP unlock (game issue), or is it an issue of CP allocation (my personal play issue)?

When playing Us Armor Doc, do I ususally go for the 2 CP Sherman cost reduction unlock first? Most certainly! But are there instances, when I realise that I need a 76mm Sherman urgently, and so I go for that 1 CP unlock first before the cost reduction, and then produce a Sherman at higher cost? Yes.
So here again the resource managment of experience and therefore CP comes into play. If the 76mm Sherman was a given, there would be no trade-off. If the choice I make onlocking is wrong, it can cost me the game. If it is right, it can win the game (maybe not outright).

Overall, I do not believe that units which will eventually be unlocked or in all games should be CP free, as this would in my opinion require a massive re-balancing in terms of income (e.g. supply yard), upgrade cost (e.g. the WH Tiers) and unit cost.

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Re: Doctrinal unlocks

Post by Warhawks97 »

idliketoplaybetter wrote:
14 Jun 2022, 10:04
Debate with arguments that arent even fit as arguments. Examples that are not adding up on the subject of the problem.
How more obvious you can get to understand you see problem cause u want to see it?


I am not acting like one, I want to point, you seem to comprehend nothing about gameplay and even more, you are not playing the game at all anymore. It's just cringe how and why people meant to react to this threads all the time. It has no basis AT FKN ALL. Like your point of view has to be worth something, when you cant even prove it with an example that shows it.

If I would have agreed to your changes after "I found nice example video", this logic discrepancy would have not been existed. That is how this garbage works. You just literally ignore this part of the "debate" :D omg

U fkd up to prove ur point and pretend like nothing happened and we should discuss it further :DDDD

Come now
Oh, forgot dear god master of arguments, You have brought not a SINGLE argument except for your point of view but without any evidence by your own that matches dont look all the same.

Go, play a competetive pvp, 2 vs 2 or 3 vs 3 and try to not to unlock a single 76 sherman, m10 or whatever on your side of the team while your enemie is playing a aggressive, high pressure game with medium tank spam backed by artillery. Just show me how well it works as AB not to unlock any armor within the first 30 mins. I´ve never seen a single game from your side, never saw you in BK, never in a match in over 10 years that i play, never saw a replay and never a single game on YT in which you play. Really dont, point your finger in all direction while not doing any better.

I mentioned the reasons why i dont want and cant play as much as i would want to. Exactly for the reasons i brought up here. I play for a week, see all the bullcrap over and over again, going same boring unlock paths that is Panzer IV, Shermans and artillery.

I have been uploading vids, sometimes i participated in games that you can see on yt. But i dont want to play a silly game for 3 years, upload 5 replays a day just that narrow minded f**** like you understand just a little bit. I did that in the past and wasted a lot of time with that.

Tell me why should i play a single game anymore when i have to play, face and see the same bullcrap again and again.
The games Tara uploads on regular basis is reason enough not to play it. I watch the games and think "my god, good that i dont play this game right now". Honestly, i enjoy the "Europe in Ruins" mod games from tara a lot more than his BK mod uploads which trigger frustration and anger every time while Ruins mod games are really really exciting to watch.


So, perhaps you go first and upload a few BK replays that prove that you dont have to go through the same unlock procedure aka unlock same medium tanks and tds again and again. I mean sure, you can ask your mate to do that for you but it still stands. You got to spend CP´s into common factional base units first like the M10 before you can actually start pursuing doctrinal related unlocks.
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Re: Doctrinal unlocks

Post by Consti255 »

Red wrote:
14 Jun 2022, 10:07
For me "experience", which is required for CP unlocks, is just another resource like manpower, ammo and fuel. Only the method of gathering this resource is different. Hence, I see CP very much as a part of the cost-balancing going on.

I do not think it would be a good balance, if in games other than 1 vs 1 one of the players could just hang back and save all resources to go and build a superior unit. This could lead to combinations, e.g. WH Def Doc & PE TS Doc, where one player acts purely defensive on a relatively small area while the other will then go straight to fielding a unit the opponents have a lot of difficulties countering.

Do I like having to spend one CP to unlock the Panzer IV F2 when playing PE Luft Doc? No. Have I cursed when I went for 88mm emplacements first and then needed a "real" tank, but did not have the experience for this one CP? Definitly!
But is this a problem of the CP unlock (game issue), or is it an issue of CP allocation (my personal play issue)?

When playing Us Armor Doc, do I ususally go for the 2 CP Sherman cost reduction unlock first? Most certainly! But are there instances, when I realise that I need a 76mm Sherman urgently, and so I go for that 1 CP unlock first before the cost reduction, and then produce a Sherman at higher cost? Yes.
So here again the resource managment of experience and therefore CP comes into play. If the 76mm Sherman was a given, there would be no trade-off. If the choice I make onlocking is wrong, it can cost me the game. If it is right, it can win the game (maybe not outright).

Overall, I do not believe that units which will eventually be unlocked or in all games should be CP free, as this would in my opinion require a massive re-balancing in terms of income (e.g. supply yard), upgrade cost (e.g. the WH Tiers) and unit cost.
No for me, since balanceing with such a "ressource" just creates more snowballing than even high fuel points on maps.
I think it is for a reason that you can use such EXP for dotrinal stuff to evolve your tactics from your doctrine itself and not to unlock vital surviveing tools. We already have 3 ressource types that are treated as such. I dont think flatten out such system which the game gave us is not necessary nor healthy for the gameplay.
While i have to agree on you that it WILL come with ressource re-balanceing and i am absolutely not refuseing to admit such.
While i also have to say, tiering in general should be looked at and the requirements of medium tanks in general.
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Re: Doctrinal unlocks

Post by idliketoplaybetter »

First of all, this thread was not created by me. Therefore, I am here to dispute what it is provide.
Second, it is kinda weak to actually point me on the fact that I am nitpicking on your own arguments provided here. Again nobody was forcing you to attach weak example here, to already weak position of debate.
It is not my fault that your own provided example is not confirmed even by the player, who you attempt to stand behind on the views.
More to say, you didnt bother to confirm or to ask said player :D

I dunno how exactly its bad to necessarily point to the weak spots in your logic here.

Nonetheless, although that is not my prerogative, I did post games even against Tarakancheg here on the forum. I think I must to have another replay somewhere on my PC to post just cause you appear to want it..

All games that I ever posted are example by itself, since played against good players (like one named above) played without any structure.
Basically, only thing I could counter good player was improvisation. Exactly what I meant few posts above - good players play and find tools for a specific game. Which also was my main argument against you, someone who does not even play the game.
More to add, every match we had together, I played the least fitting doctrine or units within the doctrine.

So..my experience is just up against anything you describe as a problem. And again, since you have made:

Problem -> backed it with a wrong no practical example -> created solution. How specifically should I approach you? It seems to me, we are simply talking of different personal tastes here. Which I specifically discuss, your taste against my.

Sadly, not a single time Tarakancheg streamed it, so you, personally, could not watch those matches (oh, and btw, imagine 99% of the players dont stream their matches, so how many experiences are left behind your thinking process here? Whatever, watch one game, call it "nice example" and place here so we can talk..)

I called Tarakancheg "Fresh", cause he is indeed a fresh player in his gameplay approach and that is the highest type of compliment can be given imo, and yet exactly what I counter to your posts and "calculations". He surprised me first after years on how and what.

Play better matches and count the game on them, not other way around.
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Re: Doctrinal unlocks

Post by Consti255 »

idliketoplaybetter wrote:
11 Jun 2022, 10:01
"high skill level games"

:DDDDDD
looks like a compliment to me
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Re: Doctrinal unlocks

Post by idliketoplaybetter »

If u really want me to be concrete here, or need, I was laughing of warhawks and what he said :D

check up the context
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Re: Doctrinal unlocks

Post by Consti255 »

You laughed at high skill level games as a quote? Wired. Which doesnt mean what Warhawks said (since i cannot find anything funny in this sentences), correct me if i am wrong but i highly doubt it :).
Its simply claiming this game (mostly Kwok vs Tara) wasnt a high skill game and you mock at the players.
Which i disagree, but i said it above already. Its a free space here to express your feelings about the game, and so is Hawks allowed to post his view of the game, if you disagree, just do it, bring the agruments, but god damn keep it civilized and dont generalize people here for their feeling arround the game. I am pretty sure the Devs see that you dont agree with him, the same as other player. But your recent post werent as near from the meaning from what you just wrote nor helpfull for the discussion not just for the arguments, but aswell as keeping this whole topic more messy as it already is.
As in many post before of you and your "arguments" where you keep switching your first intended statements.
Which are btw just full of shit which goes from i am the best player to my sight is the only right one nothing else is right to just switching meanings from previous post and even insulting players in a way that they have no clue how the game work or anything, holy macaroni. I cant even see what your actual goal is in this whole debate, other than fucking up people with your passive-agressive responses, flaming or allegedly none understanding of the game.
Add something to the discussion or just leave it. I dont know why we even have to speak in such manners here or going strikt the personal route.
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Re: Doctrinal unlocks

Post by idliketoplaybetter »

U understand difference between the context and the quote itself? re-read my sentence.
Although I have explained what is what with the game and how skilled that is. Even Tara was surprised kek.

I mock only warhawks and his example. You, from, solidarity can try to help, but yet more bringing attention to this fact.

He made a stupid example just to at least somehow live up this thread and I don't want to keep this logic alive.

It's my argument by itself.

He claims to see something special in that game to prove his point. I claim opposite and more, the guy who played it, stated opposite.
If you can't understand how this works, I don't know how to help.
I stated it many times, simply warhawks ignored this part. It's not my job to prove the point, but his. Which can't happen, as even source where example came to existing - says nope.

I did not insult anyone here, warhawks did. If he thinks writing words with stars instead of letters makes him still sound more trustworthy, welp.

Again, he must be irritated just on himself for his own stupidity, not me questioning it.

You guys are kids, who are not accepting the idea of someone not agreeing with you.

I want respectfull public to notice the fact, that warhawks never even replied to Tarakancheg response that literally unvailed his point of posting the example. Instead, he decided to just reply me and only part that I mean (lack of example in e.g), he keeps ingoring.


My goal at this discussion was to point on what is what. I asked for a better example, and am not getting it, although you are yet again trying to conceale the fact of weak and false example base.
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Re: Doctrinal unlocks

Post by Consti255 »

So this whole debate from your side is that you just want a better example?

How unnecessar is this spamming alongside the users here?
Say that you dont see this as a good example (what you did) and ask for another one and not generalize Warhawks posts, Player skill or philosophy with your super long posts when this is just your intention? How will someone else EVER read through this whole mess and shitstorm of conversation to add something from his perspective of his view?!
The last good post die Red the rest is just spamming of you Warhawks and me for no freaking reason.
Case closed, stop this nonesense, the Devs and we know your position on this debate.
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Re: Doctrinal unlocks

Post by Warhawks97 »

idliketoplaybetter wrote:
16 Jun 2022, 05:09
U understand difference between the context and the quote itself? re-read my sentence.
Although I have explained what is what with the game and how skilled that is. Even Tara was surprised kek.
I keep tracking all BK games being uploaded by him and Tigar and i think all these replays show the issues quite clearly BK has:
Immediate rushes to to arty and medium tanks.
Watching Tara playing is interesting in particular since he refuses to play down metas aka rush medium tanks and arty. Nontheless he keeps being forced at some point to go down this route.

Usually he wins though due to sheer superior micro skill which is quite literally astonishing as you can see in many of his games.
But even this sheer superior skill in micro managment isnt enough in many games to beat players with really idiotic skill levels that keep bombing Tara down with arty and Medium tanks.

I mean look at this game:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMnWBlSyPcU&t=2113s

Ete and these guys are really not great players from my experience when i played against them. But the arty/Tank meta is just kicking asses. Meta unlocks and abusive units are always better than actual player skill in BK and real doctrinal unlocks.

And yes, Tara said he played like shit and fucked up everything. But when this happens, you are even more forced to unlock basic stuff like M10´s and 76 shermans and thus further delaying actual doctrinal unlocks.

So in short you can unlock real doctrinal things only when you are (1) a much better player and (2) dominating the game and map right from the first game. If these points arent true, you are forced to unlock M10´s and 76 shermans (or stugs/Panzer IV on the other side) in order to have a realistic chance of a comeback. Any investment into infantry will be fruitless against the never ending waves of cheap medium tanks from your opponent and artillery barrages (which kwok and his team was so kind not to use)

More recently check this out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuJycyNVawA

At 12:55 he already had unlocked Storms and then unlocked the stug which in my opinion is a basic unit. At least the stug III should be a basic unit as it used to be for many many years in BK and Terror doc. But instead we have to throw CP´s for that now slowing really doctrinal tec.

If you watch closely, if he had rushed medium tanks -and in particular Panzer IV J for 3 CP total+ Maultier- he could have completely finished the entire enemie team. He was dominating the game with his recons and sniper already. So Panzer IV J and Maultier would have been a complete neckbreaker for the enemie team which in turn would have been forced to get an M10 unlock minimum since paks would have been killed by sniper and Maultier.

However, he refused to go straight for Maultier and any aggressive Medium Tank spam which in the long run cost him the entire game.


I mock only warhawks and his example.
which is just proving what i said above:

" And yes, Tara said he played like shit and fucked up everything. But when this happens, you are even more forced to unlock basic stuff like M10´s and 76 shermans and thus further delaying actual doctrinal unlocks.

So in short you can unlock real doctrinal things only when you are (1) a much better player and (2) dominating the game and map right from the first game. If these points arent true, you are forced to unlock M10´s and 76 shermans (or stugs/Panzer IV on the other side) in order to have a realistic chance of a comeback. Any investment into infantry will be fruitless against the never ending waves of cheap medium tanks from your opponent and artillery barrages (which kwok and his team was so kind not to use)"
He made a stupid example just to at least somehow live up this thread and I don't want to keep this logic alive.
I dont care what you want. Its a truth that a lot of CP´s ending up in unlocking stug III´s (which btw used to be a basic unit in Terror and BK doc for many many years), M10 and 76 shermans during the first 20-30 mins of the game. Thats what i see from my opponents every time and thats what i do myself all the time since its the best strat and investment.


He claims to see something special in that game to prove his point. I claim opposite and more, the guy who played it, stated opposite.
If you can't understand how this works, I don't know how to help.
I stated it many times, simply warhawks ignored this part. It's not my job to prove the point, but his. Which can't happen, as even source where example came to existing - says nope.
You could never prove that its not true that a huge junk of CP´s dont end up in M10´s, 76 shermans, stugs and artillery. You just cant prove it that people dont do that.

And Tara did not say the opposite, he said he fucked up the game. Which, as i can say again, forces you even more to unlock 76 shermans and m10 because Paks and Rangers wont bring you back into the game when your enemie spams Panzer IV´s and artillery against you.
So yeah, he played like shit=forces him to unlock basic units.
I did not insult anyone here, warhawks did. If he thinks writing words with stars instead of letters makes him still sound more trustworthy, welp.
No, but your general behaviour in any topic is like "Oh, i am so cool, everyone needs to love me because i am so cool. I am always right and dont need arguments or proves. I am always the best and omg, i am sooooo fucking cool. I make a few smilies and look like i am so fucking bad ass cool."

Like for real, when you can show me that its not true that 90% of the players spend their first 2-4 CP into Medium tanks and TD´s and artillery and dont even unlock them after 20-30 mins and instead unlock other really doctrinal stuff, i would admit that i was wrong. But i am arguing for like 2 years about repeating unlocks which are many times unlocks shared accross doctrines and i have never seen a game ever where this is not the case unless its some sort of gentlmen agreement between Kwok and Wald not to do this.

Again, he must be irritated just on himself for his own stupidity, not me questioning it.
I see just on irritated guy that is fooling himself ever since due to its own stupidity and who thinks who is always the coolest out there but who never ever brought any arguments and evidence to whatever topic he replied. He is just a waste of time of valuable life and who tries to look cool because thats all he can.


You guys are kids, who are not accepting the idea of someone not agreeing with you.
No, i can accept people not agreeing with me as long as they can bring some convincing counters. Again, pls show me that its not true that in 90% of all games people dont spend the first CP´s into medium tanks and TD´s that are shared accross the entire faction (hence i call them factional base units) and artillery units. I have countless of replays and yt vids proving people doing exactly this, esspecially when in a unfavourable position like tara was in this game at la fiere.
Do you have some as well that can prove the oppostie? I dont think so. And i dont expect to from someone saying that players like Estado Mayor is one of the best you ever played with who btw seems to be inactive for many years already.
I want respectfull public to notice the fact, that warhawks never even replied to Tarakancheg response that literally unvailed his point of posting the example. Instead, he decided to just reply me and only part that I mean (lack of example in e.g), he keeps ingoring.
What do you want to hear? He said he fucked up, Yes, maybe a light AT gun would have helped, idk. Nevertheless points are true:
1. You have to get basic unlocks like M10/76 sherman, esspecially when you fucked up the early game and want to survive and fight and push back ongoing enemie medium tank spam
2 of which dozens exist. There are more tanks than infantry making any infantry orientated unlock pointless
3 and thats because medium tanks are hell cheap. The take away CP´s from really doctrinal stuff and then get spammed like mad because they cost nothing.


My goal at this discussion was to point on what is what. I asked for a better example, and am not getting it, although you are yet again trying to conceale the fact of weak and false example base.
bruh, because there exist dozens of better examples. Pretty much every replay i uploaded in i think the past 5 years or so proved that. And i am sick of keep playing this game because its always the same. I didnt do anything else but unlocking medium tanks and arty in years now and i didnt see anyone being really successfull who doesnt do that.
And people like you would never understand. People like you existed in the forum like even 10 years ago. Even when i uploaded 5 replays a day repeating one strat to prove whats wrong you guys were so narrow minded that it was not worth it. I mean in the end some changes came.
The best examples of the past had been:
1. Panzer IV armor
2. 88 takikng no damage from arty
3. 3 or 4 CP Panzer IV H mass production (thats why its 5 in total today)
4. Grille barrage cost (which once stood at 35(
5. Wespe cost (once it was at 360/40 and 3 CP)
6. Stupa (aka long range instant killer offensive camp unit)
7. OP rear armor of certain tanks
8. Bunker spam with perma MG inside
... and many others.

Basically the whole time i play BK i had to abuse broken stuff, leading crusades and pissing players off due to abuse of said units and problems.
But one thing is for sure: People like you never going to understand a shit no matter what. So after 10 years i am really sick of arguing with people like you and bringing up tons of evidence guys like you are unable to process in your backward working brains.

The points above got fixed after a long time. And the people i had to argue with still dont understand why these things got changed even though it was obvious and they insult me privately to this day. I met one in vcoh 2 weeks ago and he insulted me that "i destroyed BK" because of the changes i mentioned here. The funny part is that he was once a clan mate and we played together.

So i think now you understand why i dont want to argue with kids like you anymore or that i waste my time to gather even more evidence of what is broken in BK because you would never understand it anyways and would keep insulting me like this former mate who to this day dont understand why Stupa and Bunkers got changed.
Last edited by Warhawks97 on 16 Jun 2022, 10:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Doctrinal unlocks

Post by idliketoplaybetter »

I pointed exactly what is wrong with the example provided and requested better one. Warhawks denied it. He is not playing.

You over again make false assumptions on my behalf, claiming I insulted or whatever somebody, I pointed to it too, and u literally try to covert it "case closed".

No freaking reason indeed, if we accept for the fact, that issue you guys imply on the game, has not been even backed with a proper example but warhakws cant accept that.

Again, what would the thread be, if instead of being narrowminded stubborn dude, he would have replied to the Tarakancheg on his view on this specific game?

He could not say anything to that, as that would crumble the whole post reasoning, so he attempted to speak with me and indeed paste walls of same text and "solutions". That I, omg me, so ignorant not to take serious. Nor it matter if agree on how game can or not be linear.

I really want u to read this carefully.

What if you guys are making this look as a problem and Devs indeed replied that it is ridicoulous already? What if my posts aint here?

Rhetoric must I add?
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Re: Doctrinal unlocks

Post by Warhawks97 »

idliketoplaybetter wrote:
16 Jun 2022, 10:08
I pointed exactly what is wrong with the example provided and requested better one. Warhawks denied it. He is not playing.

You over again make false assumptions on my behalf, claiming I insulted or whatever somebody, I pointed to it too, and u literally try to covert it "case closed".

No freaking reason indeed, if we accept for the fact, that issue you guys imply on the game, has not been even backed with a proper example but warhakws cant accept that.

Again, what would the thread be, if instead of being narrowminded stubborn dude, he would have replied to the Tarakancheg on his view on this specific game?

He could not say anything to that, as that would crumble the whole post reasoning, so he attempted to speak with me and indeed paste walls of same text and "solutions". That I, omg me, so ignorant not to take serious. Nor it matter if agree on how game can or not be linear.

I really want u to read this carefully.

What if you guys are making this look as a problem and Devs indeed replied that it is ridicoulous already? What if my posts aint here?

Rhetoric must I add?
I wonder if you even have the skill to read or if your "omg cool sunglasses" are obstructing your eyes too much. I am NOT playing anymore because i dont have the time nor the will to play repetetive games. Each time people ask me to play one game i did regret it. Tank rush/spam+ arty, case closed.

And, as i wrote in the post above, people like you exist since i joing BK forum in 2012. And these guys never proved anything and could never understand the proves i made, even when i played directly against them and abused the units against them i wanted to fix. Just recently one of these "unteachable" former mates insulted me sayinf "you destroyed BK" but he could never say or what exactly. I know he loved to bunker in and using Stupa. Both got fixed for good reason and he is unable to comprehend this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMnWBlSyPcU&t=2113s
Min 35:40: 3 Inf combat units but 3 Tiger Tanks, 2 bad as arty unis, 1 bad ass TD and vehicles+ repair infantry.
Now dont tell me Tanks+Arty is absolute meta. Not a single CP was spend into anything infantry i suppose.
Tara has another game at hill 112 but couldnt find it vs kommodore which looked exactly the same.
Last edited by Warhawks97 on 16 Jun 2022, 10:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Doctrinal unlocks

Post by idliketoplaybetter »

Warhawks, I meant it, maybe you have just overplayed the game urself?

I am cool guy enough to accept I can make mistakes in the game, but most games I desire to play against decent players friends are fun.

What if you are just not cool enough to accept you may be wrong? Therefore, u deserve being mocked.
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Re: Doctrinal unlocks

Post by Warhawks97 »

idliketoplaybetter wrote:
16 Jun 2022, 10:25
Warhawks, I meant it, maybe you have just overplayed the game urself?
i think i did, yes.


I am cool guy enough to accept I can make mistakes in the game, but most games I desire to play against decent players friends are fun.
As long as you have mates to play with that hate the meta as much as i do then the game can be fun when both sides try to reject instant medium tank spam/arty. But i have not many mates left willing to do so since many have left for the same reason i left.

What if you are just not cool enough to accept you may be wrong? Therefore, u deserve being mocked.
As i said, i can accept to be wrong. But how can i when i go through the same torture and regret whenever i join games with and against random players? Like i would have to reject my very own experiences. I mean when you trample into dogshit by accident that is laying on the sidewalk, are you going to say to yourself: "ah, that isnt dog-shit" just because you dont want to accept it? I trample into dogshit BK games pretty much everytime that are no fun at all. Why should i refuse that its dogshit? I mean, when i got the time towards end of july to play again, i might get back into BK and hope the best. But i am pretty sure i will end up in the same dogshit situation aka "arty spam+tank rush" and me unlocking M10´s asap again.
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Re: Doctrinal unlocks

Post by idliketoplaybetter »

So, can you accept that example you provided and results within the game you watched, are not necessarily describing what your conclusions on the "previous" coh tiresome experience may be?

What I mean, that game couldda been Anything else, if Tarakancheg did go for Anything else and not fkd up. This could be a game that would not fit your description of "game is too linear" and we would not have this material posted here. He said, that too. Could be another game completely.

Would u accept that? Without posting and repeating how u are tired from seeing same maps or build orders. I understand that as much as I can as player who had spent too much time on it too :D


Would u agree to me, not cause I am right or so, just maybe we find something else to look to?
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Re: Doctrinal unlocks

Post by MarKr »

Jeeezus guys, can you stop this?

I read through the beginning, then some of the later posts and it is literally this:
idliketoplaybetter wrote:
14 Jun 2022, 17:18
It seems to me, we are simply talking of different personal tastes here.
Some people have a problem with the way the game is set and some don't have any problem with it. It is about personal taste, Hawk's personal preference (and people with similar point of view) is not more relevant than idliketoplaybetter's (and people with similar point of view) and vice versa.

Since it is not a gameplay issue but only a preference issue, one side will always end up unhappy. We (Devs) have said before what our oppinion on this topic is and our standpoind has not changed - the current CP unlocks stay. If it is a deal-breaker for you, then BK is not going to be fun for you and it might be a good idea to look for other mods or games. We are not going to change things whenever someone writes walls of text about how everything is "retarded/stupid/dumb" because they and their friends would prefer it differently, while ignoring the people who like it the way it is.

Really, what will happen if we do the changes? The ones who want them will say "Yes, it is fine now" and the ones who don't want the suggested changes will start screaming "this is retarded/stupid/dumb!!!!" and what then? Will we change it again because there will again be someone dissatisfied who is loud about it?

I don't have anything else to add here. If you keep this civil, the topic can stay open but if you don't, it will get locked.
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