SAS as Sabotage sqaud

[Consti255]

As in this thread viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4527 already suggested.
I'd like to present the new role of SAS , Royal Marines and Sten Commandos.

To sum things up, RAF is played like a SAS only doc after the recent changes and their role is kinda unknown right now.
Should they be a AT sqaud, a line infantry sqaud or a breakthrew unit or maybe somehing different? Their place of them right now is just so versitile it is unreal (changing kits for nearly no ammo and almost instantly) and they make nearly every commando unit obsolete. After 2 CP, the party gets started. They are strong as hell, i am not calling them op in anyway, but RAF used to be one of the most interesting doc the game offerd, but now it is just the SAS going straight for airstrikes after.

I think their best intended role should be a sabotage role (as they were in reality btw.). This would force players more to get different unit types to get a good comp.
Moveing SAS to a sabotage sqaud would also open up more playroom for the royal marines (which were a frontline unit).

Hawks made a beautiful suggestion in my opinion in the thread above and i wanna build up oppon it.
Summerized, SAS gets a paradroped badass sabotage sqaud and Royal Marines become the main frontline infantry with the ability to get zookas.

SAS
Cost: 400MP
Squadsize gets reduced to 5
Equiped with silenced 5x Stens (allow the sqaud to shoot 5-7 shots before getting revealed) and can get 5x Thompsons if they want more firepower
Abilitys: 1. crawl (not beeing able to get reinforced while crawling) , 2. strategic sabotage, 3. boobytraps , 4. demo charge, 5. gammon bombs, 6. commando smoke
Build menu : AP mines, radio , trench

getting unlocked after the commando stealth upgrade for 2 CP. , beeing limited by 2 and beeing deployed via parachute.


Royal Marines
Cost: 450MP via glider
Equiped with 3x Stens and 3x Thompsons but they keep the bundle idea from SAS.
Abilitys: 1. Grenade ,2. smoke grenade, 3. demo charges, 4. Fire UP
Bazooka AT Bundle: gives them 2 x M6A3C zooks and gammon bombs.
CQC Bundle: gives them commando smoke and willy phosphor grenade (instead of the smoke grenade)

Royal Marines come only via Glider and are limited by 2 and available after the Captain and the first glider CP unlock.
They come in different gliders as the current HQ glider (look at Sten commandos).

Sten commandos
Cost 450MP via HQ glider and 380 in the HQ
Equiped with 6x Stens while beeing able to get Bundles aswell
Abilitys: 1. Grenade, 2. demo charge , 3. Commando smoke
Thompson Bundle gives them 6x Thompsons and gammon bombs
Demo Bundle gives them the ability to crawl, throwing satchels and Boobytraps (limited by 1 at a time)

The RAF HQ glider will automaticly bring in one Sten commandos sqaud while its cost is reduced to 450 MP from the current 550MP and buildable in the Infantry Truck or HQ Glider for 380MP. HQ Glider availabe after the Captain.


All Bundles will take some time to get and not beeing like the current once in terms of duration. I think 20 secs, should do the work.
This changes will designate specific units more into their designed roles and shift the meta away from this one all purpose SAS right now.
Also takeing away Brens and Rifles from SAS would bring back the beloved Rifle Commandos as main line infantry for RAF.
The historical bli bla blub would also be more accurate.
I would appreciated some Feedback

[Warhawks97]

Liked

[Jagdpanther]

No crawl, crawl is shit. 6 men crawling on plain ground right next to enemy infantry and they are invisible, then they magickly appear 3 meters next to the enemy infantry and wipe out everything. Dont start again with the bunker comparison, this is shit on another level. I thought bk is supposed to be about strategy not magic

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

No crawl, crawl is shit. 6 men crawling on plain ground right next to enemy infantry and they are invisible, then they magickly appear 3 meters next to the enemy infantry and wipe out everything. Dont start again with the bunker comparison, this is shit on another level. I thought bk is supposed to be about strategy not magic

Didn’t you play Call of Duty 4 the Pripyat mission? BK is super realistic.

[Consti255]

No crawl, crawl is shit. 6 men crawling on plain ground right next to enemy infantry and they are invisible, then they magickly appear 3 meters next to the enemy infantry and wipe out everything. Dont start again with the bunker comparison, this is shit on another level. I thought bk is supposed to be about strategy not magic

nothing to say about realistic things in BK to be real. IMO crawling is one of the most fun abilitys the game offers. It has a long planning time, it is micro intensive while also having a clear counter.

[MEFISTO]

I like the whole idea guys the only thing I would suggest is after SAS drop they shouldn’t have the ability to reinforce as a paratrooper squad since they also will have the ability to crawl, in addition they can reinforce from a glider that can be deploy anywhere in the map anyway.

[MarKr]

I like the idea to make SAS a sabotage unit as that is pretty much the only role where they would not overlap in their function with normal commandos squads, but:

Equiped with silenced 5x Stens (allow the sqaud to shoot 5-7 shots before getting revealed) and can get 5x Thompsons if they want more firepower

I would stay away from "can shoot more shots from camo, because silencer" because the number of "camo shots" cannot be modified later in the game so if they get the Thompsons, they will still be able to take those stealth shots even when Thompsons have no silencers.

getting unlocked after the commando stealth upgrade for 2 CP. , beeing limited by 2 and beeing deployed via parachute.

If they get unlocked with this, what will take their current unlock slot in the tree?

Royal Marines
Cost: 450MP via glider
Equiped with 3x Stens and 3x Thompsons but they keep the bundle idea from SAS.
Abilitys: 1. Grenade ,2. smoke grenade, 3. demo charges, 4. Fire UP
Bazooka AT Bundle: gives them 2 x M6A3C zooks and gammon bombs.
CQC Bundle: gives them commando smoke and willy phosphor grenade (instead of the smoke grenade)

Royal Marines come only via Glider and are limited by 2 and available after the Captain and the first glider CP unlock.
They come in different gliders as the current HQ glider (look at Sten commandos).

Sten commandos
Cost 450MP via HQ glider and 380 in the HQ
Equiped with 6x Stens while beeing able to get Bundles aswell
Abilitys: 1. Grenade, 2. demo charge , 3. Commando smoke
Thompson Bundle gives them 6x Thompsons and gammon bombs
Demo Bundle gives them the ability to crawl, throwing satchels and Boobytraps (limited by 1 at a time)

The RAF HQ glider will automaticly bring in one Sten commandos sqaud while its cost is reduced to 450 MP from the current 550MP and buildable in the Infantry Truck or HQ Glider for 380MP. HQ Glider availabe after the Captain.

Honestly, I would just remove the Marines. Marines are just another close combat unit that shares function with Sten Commandos.

Sten Commandos with 6 Stens + possible upgrade for 3 Thompsons, Grenade, smoke, satchels and fire up - a good short range assault squad.
PIAT Commandos would get renamed to "AT Squad" or whatever, they will have 1 zooka and 1 PIAT with possible upgrade for another zooka. Or 2 zookas and possible upgrade for a PIAT or something. If other squads get AT weapon bundle upgrade, they will only make the current PIAT squad obsolete and then, why even have the PIAT squad if everyone will go for the better option. Also, the AT squad has only 4 men so they won't be such a cancer vs tanks because one lucky shot can wipe them, which is really hard to do with a 7-men squad.

I like the whole idea guys the only thing I would suggest is after SAS drop they shouldn’t have the ability to reinforce as a paratrooper squad since they also will have the ability to crawl, in addition they can reinforce from a glider that can be deploy anywhere in the map anyway.

This could work too, with their role, they don't need reinforcement in the middle of a fight so they can retreat, reinforce at glider and crawl back if needed. Or the idea with disabled reinforcing while crawling.

[Consti255]

I like the idea to make SAS a sabotage unit as that is pretty much the only role where they would not overlap in their function with normal commandos squads, but:

Equiped with silenced 5x Stens (allow the sqaud to shoot 5-7 shots before getting revealed) and can get 5x Thompsons if they want more firepower

I would stay away from "can shoot more shots from camo, because silencer" because the number of "camo shots" cannot be modified later in the game so if they get the Thompsons, they will still be able to take those stealth shots even when Thompsons have no silencers.

Ah okay. So IMO they should just get Stens and no Thompsons. Other way they just turn into another ambush unit instead of a sabotage sqaud.

getting unlocked after the commando stealth upgrade for 2 CP. , beeing limited by 2 and beeing deployed via parachute.

If they get unlocked with this, what will take their current unlock slot in the tree?

Maybe swap them with the Def Bonus CP unlock? So after the "loss" of a combat sqaud, you should get faster access to more beefy commandos?
Just an idea. Or do you think they should just stay as a 2 CP standalone unlock ?

Royal Marines
Cost: 450MP via glider
Equiped with 3x Stens and 3x Thompsons but they keep the bundle idea from SAS.
Abilitys: 1. Grenade ,2. smoke grenade, 3. demo charges, 4. Fire UP
Bazooka AT Bundle: gives them 2 x M6A3C zooks and gammon bombs.
CQC Bundle: gives them commando smoke and willy phosphor grenade (instead of the smoke grenade)

Royal Marines come only via Glider and are limited by 2 and available after the Captain and the first glider CP unlock.
They come in different gliders as the current HQ glider (look at Sten commandos).

Sten commandos
Cost 450MP via HQ glider and 380 in the HQ
Equiped with 6x Stens while beeing able to get Bundles aswell
Abilitys: 1. Grenade, 2. demo charge , 3. Commando smoke
Thompson Bundle gives them 6x Thompsons and gammon bombs
Demo Bundle gives them the ability to crawl, throwing satchels and Boobytraps (limited by 1 at a time)

The RAF HQ glider will automaticly bring in one Sten commandos sqaud while its cost is reduced to 450 MP from the current 550MP and buildable in the Infantry Truck or HQ Glider for 380MP. HQ Glider availabe after the Captain.

Honestly, I would just remove the Marines. Marines are just another close combat unit that shares function with Sten Commandos.

I wouldnt mind that.

Sten Commandos with 6 Stens + possible upgrade for 3 Thompsons, Grenade, smoke, satchels and fire up - a good short range assault squad.
PIAT Commandos would get renamed to "AT Squad" or whatever, they will have 1 zooka and 1 PIAT with possible upgrade for another zooka. Or 2 zookas and possible upgrade for a PIAT or something. If other squads get AT weapon bundle upgrade, they will only make the current PIAT squad obsolete and then, why even have the PIAT squad if everyone will go for the better option. Also, the AT squad has only 4 men so they won't be such a cancer vs tanks because one lucky shot can wipe them, which is really hard to do with a 7-men squad.

Great idea.

I like the whole idea guys the only thing I would suggest is after SAS drop they shouldn’t have the ability to reinforce as a paratrooper squad since they also will have the ability to crawl, in addition they can reinforce from a glider that can be deploy anywhere in the map anyway.

This could work too, with their role, they don't need reinforcement in the middle of a fight so they can retreat, reinforce at glider and crawl back if needed. Or the idea with disabled reinforcing while crawling.

i wouldnt mind that. But i think the ability to get reinforced via air, would make them a really badass sabotage unit.

[Red]

From my side, in case the SAS become a Sabotage Squade, I believe when selected they should say
"Beastie Boys reporting"
and when throwing a Satchel, they should say
"Listen all of y'all it's a sabotage".

If that happens, I think I would be very interesting in trying such a reworked RAF Doc.

[Frost]

Okay, if we're going to look into the issue, we need first ask ourselves why everyone uses these units all the time. It's not very fascinating for many players to keep repeating the same thing over and over again, even though they can always use sten commandos or whatever. unless you are a specific player *cough* *cough* i will leave the explanation to the repetitive players phenomenon to you we have something else at hand...

alright the answer may surprise you, but it's fairly simple: the plane takes so long to produce units, so even if you want to play anything other than SAS, you'll be easily overrun. and i do mean it i tried to unlock CP for plane upgrade route my sniper needed long time to get out ....... to kill mg inside building and mg same to prevent enemy advances this is especially frustrating because as air you have no time So what you're doing with the change is effectively destroying the doctrine and rendering it obsolete or simply too slow to keep up, and what you'll find players doing is simply using other doctrines or going around the core doc units crossing fingers.....with that being said here is what i suggest you do instead.

1- reduce the production time of all commando units yes no exception treat everyone equally (btw i still don't know why everything take long for them).

2- or as alternative make it possible to produce commando units from field HQ if you truly want commandos to still take very long to produce for whatever reason.

here's another idea how about making HQ Gilder act the same like airborn HQ.... what do i mean by that? well you see airborne HQ is pretty special it does not produce units inside the building instead from the building you can paradrop anything around certain area, i think to solve the production issue you can instead make commando units arrive in similar fashion but if you want to keep historical accuracy yeah they came with gliders not much airdropping except SAS so it's an interesting idea that we could apply to Glider HQ alternatively with additional cost they come with obsolete glider let's say 50 more manpower or 100 open to objection so here's the summery of the ideas.

3- make commandos paradroppable around Glider HQ.

4- make commandos come with gliders around Glider HQ.

5- Field support truck is now HQ of all RAF units and can produce all of them gliders are just forward HQ to quickly bring units to the front (just like suggestion number 2).

in other words my idea is to make RAF truly special doctrine by making it relay on field support HQ to push the advance while deploying gliders to exploit enemy weaknesses and utilize commando units in such fashion.
There is also STEN, which is a problem. I'm not sure exactly why but from what I've seen, STEN is total dogshit in terms of effectiveness and Please verify corsix and correct me if I'm wrong, and even historically speaking, we know sten was dreck but largely brits being brits utilised because.... reasons. else Thompson is just way better, so here's what I recommend. If you want to make sten commandos the main assault unit, either improve sten or make all units spawn with half tommy loadouts instead, otherwise it's a massive nerf to RAF tbqh simply because STEN absolutely sucks I keep using mp40 to win games but never assault infantry of British curious i did really like the idea of introducing those to british btw it's just really sad that sten is the way it is right now and ultimately i leave the judgment to you lads ..

ok some of you might remember in vanilla there was HQ glider that you can get which does not come with any units just glider itself, while if you go with HQ suggestion we might not actually need this one but as player who play raf a lot recently (yes because i like to use sas for giggles what did you expect give you fair play for example? ) i noticed that it sucks that you have to invest very large manpower pool so you can get other units in glider so make it that you can get what's in the glider without having to go through massive sink.

also royal marines --->>>> long reinforcement time that made them fair since they were ninja squad after all you see it's not easy to train ninjas neither magic paint is easy to come by...........if you gonna make them upgradable with bazookas make it exactly like current sas because all other doctrines have bazooka unit which comes for free so it's fair to give RAF cheap bazookas.

These improvements will not only alleviate the RAF problem right now, in my opinion, but some of them will truly make RAF such an intriguing doctrine that is extremely distinct from the rest of the doctrines in the game.

[Frost]

Also i would like to highlight that if you gonna remove royal marine that actually is a tremendous nerf as i mentioned before and i will stress it again "STEN SUCKS" also sabotage sas is honestly on grand scheme of things CP sink, you badly need something to counter enemy tanks your main concern, so 90% you gonna unlock plane first unless you make SAS dependant on plane otherwise CP sink issues again and without unit that can reinforce from air while having anti tank capabilities , i personally don't think taking RAF over airborn is worthwhile at all again i do not think your idea is bad but sadly it's nothing special just having better infantry which is .... meh better just go for royal engineers or canadian infantry since they HEY GUESS WHAT? THEY CAN UPGRADE BAZOOKAS FOR FREE! no CP needed.

[Warhawks97]

The production time of units inside the Glider could or should be lowered then. Esspecially after spending a few CP to upgrade that thing.
Also having an empty glider version for lower cost would be appreciated.


What if we make Royal Marines to be deployable from the field support truck and ready to be upgraded with zooks right away?
Sten commandos will pop out of the Glider as they did in the past. Inside the glider you can also build the marine commandos later on.
SAS becomes an independent doctrinal branch with all the sabotage/booby traping thing and can crawl right away.
Other commando units will become able to crawl after some training unlocks.

[Consti255]

Also i would like to highlight that if you gonna remove royal marine that actually is a tremendous nerf as i mentioned before and i will stress it again "STEN SUCKS" also sabotage sas is honestly on grand scheme of things CP sink, you badly need something to counter enemy tanks your main concern, so 90% you gonna unlock plane first unless you make SAS dependant on plane otherwise CP sink issues again and without unit that can reinforce from air while having anti tank capabilities , i personally don't think taking RAF over airborn is worthwhile at all again i do not think your idea is bad but sadly it's nothing special just having better infantry which is .... meh better just go for royal engineers or canadian infantry since they HEY GUESS WHAT? THEY CAN UPGRADE BAZOOKAS FOR FREE! no CP needed.

Sten Commandos can get Thompsons right?
So it wouldnt be as bad as you point it out.

I agree on the deploy time as well. It should be lowerd.
Also as Hawks said, a cheaper glider without units would be nice to have. Maybe even let is cost few MP and a bit of fuel?
But moveing them to the HQ or Field truck meeeh i dont like that idea. Its enough, that you can get sten commandos in the field truck in my opinion.

Compareing RAF to AB is a little bit wired...
You have a whole different unit and tier rooster. US dont got sections or rifle commados which are damn strong line infantry for 0 CP.
You still got 17 pounders or Achillies which are a way more potent gun than the 76mm which AB is stuck with.

Also, your infantry still gets hella strong and versitile with CP unlocks aswell.

Not to mention that a Sabotage sqaud can be really good on bigger maps with taking out points and laying mines etc.
In my opinion Royal Commandos should get flat out removed and Stens/Rifles should be the main infantry with the ability of getting zooks after a certain 2 or 4 CP glider upgrade.
CW has so much good AT options and i dont think that 2 or 4 CP would make them "uSeLeSs AgAiN".
You can still get Piats

[Redgaarden]

I'm against hiding gammon bomb behind weapon unlock. I kinda dont want to waste muni on a squad that I want to get close to a tank.

We could buff Sten guns since (almost) all units that use it are elite units. like putting the moving accuarcy to 0.9

So how will Marines and SAS be different? Are we just switching them? Could kinda work. That would limit the "OP" squad to either be LMG or Rockets. And having two squads crawling could be decent?

[Warhawks97]

So how will Marines and SAS be different? Are we just switching them? Could kinda work. That would limit the "OP" squad to either be LMG or Rockets. And having two squads crawling could be decent?

SAS becoming a paradroped 5 men sabotage squad and some sort of special force for small ambushes, planting mines and ambushes. Marines would be the main assault unit with thompsons, zooks etc. Sten commandos coming out of the glider being a mix in terms of abilities and roles. I tried to create a doctrine arround that idea in the "doctrinal unlock" topic

[Frost]

Also i would like to highlight that if you gonna remove royal marine that actually is a tremendous nerf as i mentioned before and i will stress it again "STEN SUCKS" also sabotage sas is honestly on grand scheme of things CP sink, you badly need something to counter enemy tanks your main concern, so 90% you gonna unlock plane first unless you make SAS dependant on plane otherwise CP sink issues again and without unit that can reinforce from air while having anti tank capabilities , i personally don't think taking RAF over airborn is worthwhile at all again i do not think your idea is bad but sadly it's nothing special just having better infantry which is .... meh better just go for royal engineers or canadian infantry since they HEY GUESS WHAT? THEY CAN UPGRADE BAZOOKAS FOR FREE! no CP needed.

Sten Commandos can get Thompsons right?
So it wouldnt be as bad as you point it out.

I agree on the deploy time as well. It should be lowerd.
Also as Hawks said, a cheaper glider without units would be nice to have. Maybe even let is cost few MP and a bit of fuel?
But moveing them to the HQ or Field truck meeeh i dont like that idea. Its enough, that you can get sten commandos in the field truck in my opinion.

Compareing RAF to AB is a little bit wired...
You have a whole different unit and tier rooster. US dont got sections or rifle commados which are damn strong line infantry for 0 CP.
You still got 17 pounders or Achillies which are a way more potent gun than the 76mm which AB is stuck with.

Also, your infantry still gets hella strong and versitile with CP unlocks aswell.

Not to mention that a Sabotage sqaud can be really good on bigger maps with taking out points and laying mines etc.
In my opinion Royal Commandos should get flat out removed and Stens/Rifles should be the main infantry with the ability of getting zooks after a certain 2 or 4 CP glider upgrade.
CW has so much good AT options and i dont think that 2 or 4 CP would make them "uSeLeSs AgAiN".
You can still get Piats

oh you will easily do that, infantry lose meaning quickly as the game progress and section is hands down strong from day 1 not like you honestly need anything better and let alone canadian infantry and their 1 CP unlock and don't forget 101 and 82 can both reinforce from AIR and use bazookas, in fact you need less CP to be perhaps not as strong but you are much more versatile and you also enjoy flame grenades, so i don't know where "stronger" came from perhaps can survive more but without SAS being frontline/multirole your only advantage is achilles and 17pdr and plane recharge time but it's easily overlooked if we consider the mobility of your actual air units since with airborn you can quickly lock on strategic positions and drop whenever you want without having to be extremely careful about some unit in corner 1 shotting your plane with kar96 or art.... i did put field HQ argument because i played a game where 1 guy was just firing art at my planes 24/7 and that completely fucked my gameplay as RAF i found that to be completely silly to be denied from making any unit just because someone is having eyes on you like really? why suffer then it's honestly SE all over again "oh but it's fUn" that is why i suggest to make RAF something bit extraordinary to compensate for power gap at least in my opinion right now it's the only air doctrine that has no multirole unit which reinforce from air even with all CP unlocks... again vacuum.

[Frost]

So how will Marines and SAS be different? Are we just switching them? Could kinda work. That would limit the "OP" squad to either be LMG or Rockets. And having two squads crawling could be decent?

SAS becoming a paradroped 5 men sabotage squad and some sort of special force for small ambushes, planting mines and ambushes. Marines would be the main assault unit with thompsons, zooks etc. Sten commandos coming out of the glider being a mix in terms of abilities and roles. I tried to create a doctrine arround that idea in the "doctrinal unlock" topic

i agree with that as long as we have some sort of placeholder glider drop by let's say any by type of HQ really as long as you are within X area the main idea is to make commandos instead of paradrop just spawn from gliders for extra manpower you have more tactical options of hit and run.

that way we don't really need to give them crawl at all, except for SAS.

[Consti255]

Also i would like to highlight that if you gonna remove royal marine that actually is a tremendous nerf as i mentioned before and i will stress it again "STEN SUCKS" also sabotage sas is honestly on grand scheme of things CP sink, you badly need something to counter enemy tanks your main concern, so 90% you gonna unlock plane first unless you make SAS dependant on plane otherwise CP sink issues again and without unit that can reinforce from air while having anti tank capabilities , i personally don't think taking RAF over airborn is worthwhile at all again i do not think your idea is bad but sadly it's nothing special just having better infantry which is .... meh better just go for royal engineers or canadian infantry since they HEY GUESS WHAT? THEY CAN UPGRADE BAZOOKAS FOR FREE! no CP needed.

Sten Commandos can get Thompsons right?
So it wouldnt be as bad as you point it out.

I agree on the deploy time as well. It should be lowerd.
Also as Hawks said, a cheaper glider without units would be nice to have. Maybe even let is cost few MP and a bit of fuel?
But moveing them to the HQ or Field truck meeeh i dont like that idea. Its enough, that you can get sten commandos in the field truck in my opinion.

Compareing RAF to AB is a little bit wired...
You have a whole different unit and tier rooster. US dont got sections or rifle commados which are damn strong line infantry for 0 CP.
You still got 17 pounders or Achillies which are a way more potent gun than the 76mm which AB is stuck with.

Also, your infantry still gets hella strong and versitile with CP unlocks aswell.

Not to mention that a Sabotage sqaud can be really good on bigger maps with taking out points and laying mines etc.
In my opinion Royal Commandos should get flat out removed and Stens/Rifles should be the main infantry with the ability of getting zooks after a certain 2 or 4 CP glider upgrade.
CW has so much good AT options and i dont think that 2 or 4 CP would make them "uSeLeSs AgAiN".
You can still get Piats

oh you will easily do that, infantry lose meaning quickly as the game progress and section is hands down strong from day 1 not like you honestly need anything better and let alone canadian infantry and their 1 CP unlock and don't forget 101 and 82 can both reinforce from AIR and use bazookas, in fact you need less CP to be perhaps not as strong but you are much more versatile and you also enjoy flame grenades, so i don't know where "stronger" came from perhaps can survive more but without SAS being frontline/multirole your only advantage is achilles and 17pdr and plane recharge time but it's easily overlooked if we consider the mobility of your actual air units since with airborn you can quickly lock on strategic positions and drop whenever you want without having to be extremely careful about some unit in corner 1 shotting your plane with kar96 or art.... i did put field HQ argument because i played a game where 1 guy was just firing art at my planes 24/7 and that completely fucked my gameplay as RAF i found that to be completely silly to be denied from making any unit just because someone is having eyes on you like really? why suffer then it's honestly SE all over again "oh but it's fUn" that is why i suggest to make RAF something bit extraordinary to compensate for power gap at least in my opinion right now it's the only air doctrine that has no multirole unit which reinforce from air even with all CP unlocks... again vacuum.

ive played alot AB recently and i can tell you that AB dont got even close the AT capabilitys that RAF got.
You still need 4 CPs to get access to zooks on elites (101st or 82. ince it gets unlocked with the 82.), 6 for airstrike bombs and even 2 more for M10s and Hellcats. Or you put 3 CP into paradroped 76mm guns, but still it the biggest gun you can get. the 17pounder is on a whole nother lvl compared to the 76mm 3inch from the m10/76 sherman or M1A2 55 from the hellcat.

RAF isnt as close forced to CP unlocks as AB is when it comes to AT.

I already pointed it out in the other post, i would like to see willys phosphor nades as an introduction for the Sabotage SAS sqaud or Sten commandos while beeing locked behind certain CP.
Idk, why does RAF to be the same as AB or Luft? I would like to see RAF beeing more glider focused and not paradroped. (this should included lower build costs for commandos in gliders)

[Frost]

Sten Commandos can get Thompsons right?
So it wouldnt be as bad as you point it out.

I agree on the deploy time as well. It should be lowerd.
Also as Hawks said, a cheaper glider without units would be nice to have. Maybe even let is cost few MP and a bit of fuel?
But moveing them to the HQ or Field truck meeeh i dont like that idea. Its enough, that you can get sten commandos in the field truck in my opinion.

Compareing RAF to AB is a little bit wired...
You have a whole different unit and tier rooster. US dont got sections or rifle commados which are damn strong line infantry for 0 CP.
You still got 17 pounders or Achillies which are a way more potent gun than the 76mm which AB is stuck with.

Also, your infantry still gets hella strong and versitile with CP unlocks aswell.

Not to mention that a Sabotage sqaud can be really good on bigger maps with taking out points and laying mines etc.
In my opinion Royal Commandos should get flat out removed and Stens/Rifles should be the main infantry with the ability of getting zooks after a certain 2 or 4 CP glider upgrade.
CW has so much good AT options and i dont think that 2 or 4 CP would make them "uSeLeSs AgAiN".
You can still get Piats

oh you will easily do that, infantry lose meaning quickly as the game progress and section is hands down strong from day 1 not like you honestly need anything better and let alone canadian infantry and their 1 CP unlock and don't forget 101 and 82 can both reinforce from AIR and use bazookas, in fact you need less CP to be perhaps not as strong but you are much more versatile and you also enjoy flame grenades, so i don't know where "stronger" came from perhaps can survive more but without SAS being frontline/multirole your only advantage is achilles and 17pdr and plane recharge time but it's easily overlooked if we consider the mobility of your actual air units since with airborn you can quickly lock on strategic positions and drop whenever you want without having to be extremely careful about some unit in corner 1 shotting your plane with kar96 or art.... i did put field HQ argument because i played a game where 1 guy was just firing art at my planes 24/7 and that completely fucked my gameplay as RAF i found that to be completely silly to be denied from making any unit just because someone is having eyes on you like really? why suffer then it's honestly SE all over again "oh but it's fUn" that is why i suggest to make RAF something bit extraordinary to compensate for power gap at least in my opinion right now it's the only air doctrine that has no multirole unit which reinforce from air even with all CP unlocks... again vacuum.

ive played alot AB recently and i can tell you that AB dont got even close the AT capabilitys that RAF got.
You still need 4 CPs to get access to zooks on elites (101st or 82. ince it gets unlocked with the 82.), 6 for airstrike bombs and even 2 more for M10s and Hellcats. Or you put 3 CP into paradroped 76mm guns, but still it the biggest gun you can get. the 17pounder is on a whole nother lvl compared to the 76mm 3inch from the m10/76 sherman or M1A2 55 from the hellcat.

RAF isnt as close forced to CP unlocks as AB is when it comes to AT.

I already pointed it out in the other post, i would like to see willys phosphor nades as an introduction for the Sabotage SAS sqaud or Sten commandos while beeing locked behind certain CP.
Idk, why does RAF to be the same as AB or Luft? I would like to see RAF beeing more glider focused and not paradroped. (this should included lower build costs for commandos in gliders)

alright let me break it down to you so you can understand better
First of all, those 2 CP units can be dropped anywhere around the map and be reinforced everywhere as well and not to mention flame grenade of 82 and sniper drop in everywhere with a click of a mouse and medics and so much stuff... so in terms of capabilities and versatility AB gets the upper hand, now let's go back to what you mentioned and break it down 1 by 1 ok so you said 6 for airstrike bombs right? wrong 4 and not only you get 1 like RAF but you get 2 AT capable airstrikes and 1 AA while not as good as carpet bombing of RAF but have AP rounds, alright now to paradropped 76mm well do i even need to say anything about that? for CP you get 76mm anywhere you want fully loaded with ap again click of a mouse and CP Fair to me and as bonus you also get light howitzer btw ) for your howitzer you have to drop the other glider that's 450 manpower so up yours i guess (i told you a lot of weird and questionable things around this doctrine almost as if you are expected to cheat resources) wolverine is amazing so is hellcat mostly the latter can be used as both AT and infantry support role if needed Achilles are locked behind command truck that's 70 fuel mang and 300 manpower also not to mention armor command truck.... 17pdr is too low to get to the frontline most of the time it will die to art or blitzkrieg assaults because well too slow..... and 420 manpower very unlucky to be replaced under normal circumstances. and for AB under worst conditions you can trade resources and you have supply yard........

so ye i really have no idea what makes RAF commandos stand off, aside from maybe a tad status buff, and free weapons which need 92469249 cp to upgrade and ANYWAY they take forever to upgrade "free weapons".... (i swear to god everything takes ages for this doctrine) i really think removing royal marines and making sas not multi-role infantry is such a bad idea for this doctrine because they have nothing else to make them stand off if we compare them to canada or royal engineers right now and AB as i mentioned above.

[Redgaarden]

while not as good as carpet bombing of RAF but have AP rounds

I think the bullet strafe is a lot better than RAF bombing since the strafe will kill light vehicles, artillery, and elite troops. While bombing run is only good against low level troops and some medium quality troops.

so ye i really have no idea what makes RAF commandos stand off, aside from maybe a tad status buff, and free weapons which need 92469249 cp to upgrade and ANYWAY they take forever to upgrade "free weapons".... (i swear to god everything takes ages for this doctrine) i really think removing royal marines and making sas not multi-role infantry is such a bad idea for this doctrine because they have nothing else to make them stand off if we compare them to canada or royal engineers right now and AB as i mentioned above.

Are we not making royal marines the new SAS? now you dont need to unlock them anymore. Which would help with everything cp cost. Or am I reading this wrong?

[Consti255]

You are reading correct Red.

Frost, you compare everything RAF got with CP unlocks for AB.
Everything you pointed out is CP free for RAF.
Thats why RAF is so powerful because you just need just 2 CP to get going.
Delaying power behind some CP for RAF is perfectly fine.

Make it that way. Sure AB has AT-capabilitys, but they are behind MANY CPs and almost a must go for AB every game because your standard unit rooster is so lackluster.
You are just talking like playing AB is like haveing free CP the whole time and beeing a versitile monster. You have great options but EVERYTHING behind CP, meanwhile you are decline a Royal Marine/ Commando change that puts Zooks behind CP.
This makes absolutely zero sense.

Airborne Doctrine

101st CP
82. CP (which enables zooks)
Airstrikes CP
M10/Hellacts CP
Dropable AT guns CP
Phosphor nades CP
Dropable Sniper CP (HQ sqaud or AB HQ)

CP CP CP everywhere

RAF

Achillies CP
Piat Commandos and Sniper CP
Airstrikes CP


Playing RAF is like heaven compared to
AB when it comes to CP unlocks.
You dont need to spend CP for any of your main Infantry even after the SAS change.
Which other doc has access to so much C Tier elites for 0 CP?

[Frost]

yes but you are removing everything they have special for them and simply making them yet another canadian infantry, my argument is that why in the world would i bother taking whole doctrine only to use sabotage unit? (SAS) which is the only special unit you have. STEN commandos and enfield commandos are very good if you dump way too much CP more than AB otherwise you cannot upgrade them nor buy anything for them and EVEN if you do section can easily do the same job and even better thanks to marksmen ability and well they have very good status which honestly makes all your commandos obsolete since their bren cost no CP.

my argument here is that your changes make RAF essentially frontline doctrine not air focused at all aside from abilities your infantry more or less just frontline infantry hence (Canadians) on top of that your suggestion says commandos get smoke grenade not the commando smoke O.o what do they even have left? the big reason we all went crazy and used sas all the time because they are the only unit which can be dropped everywhere and multi-role based on what you want them to do, i've seen very good player just throw random bomb and destroy glider mid-air
So you don't really need more frontline infantry what you truly need is airborn units to carry fast assaults and can reinforce wherever you want royal marines are not that great because THEY DO NOT REINFORCE FROM AIR and any commando unit without commando smoke is garbage btw

your suggestion is amazing if we have the good old firefly because it serves very well against enemy tanks to support your frontline infantry but as we way we are right now? no i think RAF gonna be low tier doctrine.



and and to answer your question about what other doctrines have elite units from the get go have you ever played as canada? or perhaps royal engineers? they are amazing i heavily recommend trying them.

[Frost]

You are reading correct Red.

Frost, you compare everything RAF got with CP unlocks for AB.
Everything you pointed out is CP free for RAF.
Thats why RAF is so powerful because you just need just 2 CP to get going.
Delaying power behind some CP for RAF is perfectly fine.

Make it that way. Sure AB has AT-capabilitys, but they are behind MANY CPs and almost a must go for AB every game because your standard unit rooster is so lackluster.
You are just talking like playing AB is like haveing free CP the whole time and beeing a versitile monster. You have great options but EVERYTHING behind CP, meanwhile you are decline a Royal Marine/ Commando change that puts Zooks behind CP.
This makes absolutely zero sense.

Airborne Doctrine

101st CP
82. CP (which enables zooks)
Airstrikes CP
M10/Hellacts CP
Dropable AT guns CP
Phosphor nades CP
Dropable Sniper CP (HQ sqaud or AB HQ)

CP CP CP everywhere

RAF

Achillies CP
Piat Commandos and Sniper CP
Airstrikes CP


Playing RAF is like heaven compared to
AB when it comes to CP unlocks.
You dont need to spend CP for any of your main Infantry even after the SAS change.
Which other doc has access to so much C Tier elites for 0 CP?

take a good look at anyone playing RAF and even back then you gonna find out that anyone who tried to unlock CP to get better units actually went to rush SAS not even bother to get anything else , all what matter is the units which reinforce from air otherwise the bleed is so massive that you just gonna be really irritated especially as HE tanks scatter around also panthers yada yada, even if you spend a lot of CP you gonna find your commandos quickly underperforming just put them in test against storms and you will quickly understand what i m talking about, SAS was the main power spike for RAF and have always been this way from countless patches and suddenly you want to make them essentially some backward squad that specializes in sabotage O.o i mean yeah sure make special commando squad for that but no don't remove the best unit the whole doctrine have just because some patch made them come so fast, especially when firefly was removed from the doctrine which btw was the main reason why SAS was made 2 cp to begin with if you gonna do that you really need to add something new to make over the massive power gap left behind otherwise as i stated above low tier doctrine.

for sniper drop you don't really need CP just 101 airborne HQ which is more durable than glider btw :^) 101 have recoilless rifle which was buffed recently and they drop with 1 as well, tho people don't use them like SAS because you cannot upgrade instantly and must wait for supplies but i've seen people use 82nd like SAS but 7 men can clear most of the stuff behind enemy lines and survive reliably well thanks to smoke ability unlike 82nd with only fireup.

and as i said maybe you pay less CP but your units are nowhere near usage of AB since they have invisible base from the skies and can be dropped everywhere with their bazooka at the ready royal marines need a mobile base that is not easy to come by in about 90% of the situations because players not gonna leave you alone with countless art that is why you play as air.

[Consti255]

I feel like you dont read the full suggestions.
so i am gonna list it in a fast way:

-Royal Marines get removed (or changed to your frontline unit with the ability to get zooks after glider CP upgrade)
- Sten/Rifle Commandos get your main unit if Royal marines get removed. With the ability get zooks after Glider CP upgrade.

- Commando build time gets decreased.
-Glider stens get the price reduced
- standalone HQ glider gets introduced for a small amount of MP and some fuel
-SAS become a sabotage sqaud


Also what could work: change for the commando AT sqaud. Give them a possible zook upgrade for 30ammo each

SOOO
you become more of a fast react glider doc instead of paradroped like Luft or AB
i see nothing wrong with it.
Commandos are a tier higher as canadians, sappers and sections, have better rifles, abilitys and more HP and possibilitys to upgrade.

[kwok]

I think frost is saying that changing SAS is not enough to make RAF an interesting doctrine relative to alternatives.
The issue I think currently is that while it’s true RAF is strong right now it’s because of SAS. I have no idea if it stays strong without SAS. I might not agree, I just see what he’s saying. All I know is right now it is ridiculous that RAF doc is basically just SAS doc. It shouldn’t stay this way for the sake of balance. People playing against it don’t find it fun. So I think frost is saying think about the balance impacts not just thematic. We can tweak SAS to make them weaker or stronger or changed, but RAF as a whole needs to stand up with the change. I don’t think we have been very explicit in thinking that through. And if someone says make all tanks not CP locked I will lock this topic lol.