Spotters, Binoculars, VT´s

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Warhawks97
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Spotters, Binoculars, VT´s

Postby Warhawks97 » 14 Apr 2015, 17:58

I open this topic as i think that too often games end up in a reccon fight and for a long time booth sides only try to get reccons in a better position by countering others. Its a bit stupid that the entire offensve planing is based on two units actually. Those are often put carefully on a position and when chance occurs to start an assault somewhere else which would need some recconassaince quickly there is no unit with good view available. I want to expend binocular abilities to some other units so the recconassaince (which is very important to get a fluid game which stucks not in heavy camping) is better and easier available where it is really neccessary. Also VT is often not available where it is neccessary. Inf doc for example has spotters often somewhere but out of range for quickly and usefull use of VT during an assault where VT´s are most usefull and neccessary. Luftwaffes VT is good during offensives but it requires too much. A unit that builds 88, 88, VT unlock, unlock of a expensive combat unit and then again deployment of those.

General:

-Binoculars for US captain, PE Hauptsurmführer and WE officers.
-Binocular ability for Snipers. But when active they wont be able to shoot.


PE:
-Binocluars for Hauptsturmführer.
-Binoculars for the Scout vehicle (?)
-Luftwaffe 88 VT for Kettenkrad and Vampire HT

US:
-Binocular for Captain
-Inf doc 105mm VT for captain to have it available during assaults where it is neccessary. (Btw should also affect 105 sherman)
-Binoculars for M20 Scout Car
-Binoculars to AB Observation Squad

CW:
- Binoculars to M5 Recce. RAF has it already but maybe they could get a new one. The abilities for the other Recces of other docs would stay and Binoculars just added.


WE:
-Binocluars for WE officer.
-def doc VT ability for officer but thats already the case iirc.
- I was looking for a Vehicle which all docs have in common but i found only Puma with 50 mm. Thing is i actually dont want a vehicle with heavy firepower that has also Binoculars. If so then all other docs/factions would get Binoculars for counterpart units (e.g Greyhound) . Thats why i thought to have this schwimmwagen not as reward for Bike and instead booth available. The schwimmwagen would have Binocular ability. Maybe anyone has a better idea here.





I think that would help the game dynamics without that booth sides would end up in "anti recon missions" and instead quick reconassaince could be done during assaults to continue those once they started. Maybe spotter Binocular range would get increased to be still better than those of other units and to make them not usless and unused.



Tell me your minds.
Last edited by Warhawks97 on 14 Apr 2015, 19:43, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Spotters, Binoculars, VT´s

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 14 Apr 2015, 19:01

Cool idea, but vehicles shouldnt than have as huge sight as raf recce. This jerking off with recons started after snipers sight decrease btw.

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Re: Spotters, Binoculars, VT´s

Postby MarKr » 14 Apr 2015, 20:00

I once tried to add Binoculars to AB scouts but the ability is a real mess if assigned to multi-soldier squads - The dude with binocular cannot move but the rest of the squad can move normaly :/. So this would apply to Hauptsturmführer too, I guess. Also AB scouts have ability switch and binocular in combination with ability switch creates other bugs :/...

Also VT is often not available where it is neccessary. Inf doc for example has spotters often somewhere but out of range for quickly and usefull use of VT during an assault where VT´s are most usefull and neccessary.

Isn't this more of a tactical decision? Either you keep them somewhere to keep a watch over some place, you leave the place and let the Scout follow your attack and use VT if necesarry...

-Binocular ability for Snipers. But when active they wont be able to shoot.

Doesn't this give you just another Scout unit? Evasive action for camo movement, passive camo when you get to cover and then turn on Binoculars...except for the fact that snipers have guns, but they are more expensive which evens it.

Some vehicles could get binoculars, I don't see a problem there (which doesn't mean there are none :D). But Binocular for snipers and more units with VT - I don't like these two.
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Re: Spotters, Binoculars, VT´s

Postby Warhawks97 » 14 Apr 2015, 21:29

MarKr wrote:I once tried to add Binoculars to AB scouts but the ability is a real mess if assigned to multi-soldier squads - The dude with binocular cannot move but the rest of the squad can move normaly :/. So this would apply to Hauptsturmführer too, I guess. Also AB scouts have ability switch and binocular in combination with ability switch creates other bugs :/...


The RE artillery spotters had been a two men squad and there wasnt any problem. Maybe you can remember them.


MarKr wrote:
Also VT is often not available where it is neccessary. Inf doc for example has spotters often somewhere but out of range for quickly and usefull use of VT during an assault where VT´s are most usefull and neccessary.

Isn't this more of a tactical decision? Either you keep them somewhere to keep a watch over some place, you leave the place and let the Scout follow your attack and use VT if necesarry...


come on. So some docs have it only for combat units, some for booth and others only for spotters? srsly. And yeah it depends for which it is more usefull but usually and most usefull VT´s are those called by the combat units itself during assault. Its also doctrinal depending where is what more usefull. But during an assault where you mostly have combat units and trying to keep those alive you then expect that a player will quickly search his spotter, start moving it (which will kill him probably) and get it close enough to use VT but fast enough before all combat units are dead already. Either VT is neccessary to begin an assault (then spotters need it) lke using it on a bunker or 88 or its neccessary when an assault is already going when a new defensive unit suddenly appears or a large concentration of enemie units which then requires VT ability for a unit close that is in the combat area (which in this case is surely not a spotter as this will follow a bit later when player has time to move them carefully forward not to lose 160 mp.

MarKr wrote:
-Binocular ability for Snipers. But when active they wont be able to shoot.

Doesn't this give you just another Scout unit? Evasive action for camo movement, passive camo when you get to cover and then turn on Binoculars...except for the fact that snipers have guns, but they are more expensive which evens it.


Once they used evasive action to get in the middle of enemie units and while doing so view range was a large as nowdays spotter with binoculars. To choose either using binoculars or to shoot or to do evasive maneuvers is really not OP.

MarKr wrote:Some vehicles could get binoculars, I don't see a problem there (which doesn't mean there are none :D). But Binocular for snipers and more units with VT - I don't like these two.

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Re: Spotters, Binoculars, VT´s

Postby lunarwolf » 14 Apr 2015, 22:52

not big on the idea of more VT, there is enough arty spam as it is

my 2cents

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Re: Spotters, Binoculars, VT´s

Postby MarKr » 14 Apr 2015, 23:51

The RE artillery spotters had been a two men squad and there wasnt any problem. Maybe you can remember them.

I don't...Do you mean RA? Since I cannot see a reason why there would be an arta spotter for RE with only one arta unit :D
OK, maybe I did something wrong and because of that it didn't work...

So some docs have it only for combat units, some for booth and others only for spotters?

Diversity? :D

I just don't like the idea of adding VT to several units. Only US spotters can use VT? So what? Few patches ago US Infantry had no VT at all and the doc was usable. Now they got VT, but it is not enough...so let's add more units to call VT, oh but still not enough, let's add Sherman 105 to VT too. What will come next? Snipers with VT?. In this case I'd say make do with what you have.

Once they used evasive action to get in the middle of enemie units and while doing so view range was a large as nowdays spotter with binoculars. To choose either using binoculars or to shoot or to do evasive maneuvers is really not OP.

Yes, but I presume there was a reason behind limiting sniper's range and increasing Spotter's range. IIRCthe reason was to make spotters, well...spotting units while snipers were meant to be long range infantry killers. By adding them binoculars they would almost be the same as they were before. Not to mention that snipers would take over the role of spotters and the only reason to build a spotter then would be the VT...
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Re: Spotters, Binoculars, VT´s

Postby Warhawks97 » 15 Apr 2015, 00:12

MarKr wrote:
The RE artillery spotters had been a two men squad and there wasnt any problem. Maybe you can remember them.

I don't...Do you mean RA? Since I cannot see a reason why there would be an arta spotter for RE with only one arta unit :D
OK, maybe I did something wrong and because of that it didn't work...


RA, yes.

MarKr wrote:
So some docs have it only for combat units, some for booth and others only for spotters?

Diversity? :D


-.-

MarKr wrote:I just don't like the idea of adding VT to several units. Only US spotters can use VT? So what? Few patches ago US Infantry had no VT at all and the doc was usable. Now they got VT, but it is not enough...so let's add more units to call VT, oh but still not enough, let's add Sherman 105 to VT too. What will come next? Snipers with VT?. In this case I'd say make do with what you have.


well..... in luft and inf doc VT is a waste.... simply that. In case of luft even a wasted unlock mostly. SE and CW have VT for so many units and terror at least for a combat unit which is actually always in VT range against a usefull target and during attacks. Instead saying "i dont want more arty" maybe start thinking about to balance the VT´s at least if they are in some docs and that they are realistically useable. And about sherman: when def doc uses VT all howitzers, Grille and 88´s do shoot. So instead calling "stupid stuff, disbalance, uselesness" "diversity" rather think about it, balance, change and fix it or?

MarKr wrote:
Once they used evasive action to get in the middle of enemie units and while doing so view range was a large as nowdays spotter with binoculars. To choose either using binoculars or to shoot or to do evasive maneuvers is really not OP.

Yes, but I presume there was a reason behind limiting sniper's range and increasing Spotter's range. IIRCthe reason was to make spotters, well...spotting units while snipers were meant to be long range infantry killers. By adding them binoculars they would almost be the same as they were before. Not to mention that snipers would take over the role of spotters and the only reason to build a spotter then would be the VT...



The spotter would be able to detect enemie hidden units. Also snipers wouldnt stay on such forward positions. I request more binoculars and scouting abilties simply to have some quick scouting and to get an overview. You should see what a bullshit "reccon fight" occures. Reccons would be used for longer and more forward recconassaince. The others mainly for some fast overview arround the friendly units to plan faster the next tactical step. A sniper wouldnt replace a reccon as the threat would be too great to get spotted by a real enemie spotter. This is simply some stuff which you learn during pvp games. A unit with binoculars wouldnt suddenly replace the reccons. As if others than spotters are to stupid to use some binoculars and to check the enviroment.

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Re: Spotters, Binoculars, VT´s

Postby MarKr » 15 Apr 2015, 11:00

in luft and inf doc VT is a waste.... simply that. In case of luft even a wasted unlock mostly.

I'd say that Luft specifically has it as kind of a "support" ability since they have other toys to fool around with + they are not arty based doctrine so there is no real reason to give them some super effective VT, right?

SE and CW have VT for so many units and terror at least for a combat unit which is actually always in VT range against a usefull target and during attacks.

SE and CW and arty doctrines so it makes sense that they have more units able to call in VT. Terror has it as part of the "terrorizing enemies" stuff. Also you can have like what? 2 Nebels? (We're going to introduce an anti-cheat mechanics which should make you think twice before killing nebel crew, building new nebels and then recrewing the old ones).

So instead calling "stupid stuff, disbalance, uselesness" "diversity"

I don't remember I called something "stupid" to be honest. But yeah, sometimes I have doubts if some changes won't bring disbalance or make some units useless - what's wrong with that? If we don't consider these possibilities most changes would bring disbalance factors with them.

rather think about it, balance, change and fix it or?

What you suggest with VT is certainly a change but not really a fix and as far as balance goes - are you sure it is a balance issue? It seems to me that you only want some doctrines to get what others have. This is quite popular by the way - an example:
If there is a situation when majority of factions have some feature and minority has some equivalent feature then there are two possible situations:
1) feature of majority is somehow better than feature of minority
2) the other way around - feature of minority is better than feature of majority.
However people always want the better feature to be same for everyone which totally nuliffies the thought behind it.
Like in:
Majority of doctrines has one-man commanders (USA - Ranger captain, CW - Lieutenant(max 3x), Captain, Commandos Captain, WH - Officer) while there are only few doctines which have command squads (2/3 of them are doctrine specific - US HQ squad, WH Storm squad, PE - Hauptsturmführer). These squads have an obvious advantage over their one-man counterparts and people demand all command units to be squads.
HOWEVER:
US, CW and WH have triage centers (they have different names but same function = heal + free squads) and people say "Hey, where is PE's free squad source?" demanding same feature for PE. But these are made different for a reason.
I hope you can see what I'm saying - and your demand for VT isn't much different.

The spotter would be able to detect enemie hidden units.

I didn't get from the comments that sniper would only extend sight without revealing hidden units.

I request more binoculars and scouting abilties simply to have some quick scouting and to get an overview. You should see what a bullshit "reccon fight" occures.

And I'm just against the snipers with binoculars since they would be too much like spotters I don't mind vehicles.

A unit with binoculars wouldnt suddenly replace the reccons. As if others than spotters are to stupid to use some binoculars and to check the enviroment.

But you have to admit that Spotters (and potentionally the snipers with binoculars) are more useful since you can sneak them into a position and use the binocular ability and keep them there until they get discovered while vehicles would be seen and probably destroyed - just compare Spotters and Kettenkrad. Kett is faster but cannot move while being camoed so placing it somewhere for a spotting duty is significantely harder.
Even if the shiper binocular wouldn't reveal hidden unit, you would just get another sneaky unit that boosts your view range. That's why I say yes to vehicles with binocular but not to snipers.
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Re: Spotters, Binoculars, VT´s

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 15 Apr 2015, 12:14

@Mark
Yep man, you rigth about terror VT, 2 nebels is a joke and i said many times its not even able to kill an mg nest, moreover sometimes when you throw it on naked 17 pounder only crew dies but not a gun lol. So rise it up to 4 nebels at least.

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Re: Spotters, Binoculars, VT´s

Postby Warhawks97 » 15 Apr 2015, 12:21

OK. But can at least officers and some scout vehicles get binoculars? Just to get the game a bit more fluid and for improved dynamics. Something to get a quick check over the enviroment when an advance is already on the go and without need to search the spotter placed somewhere on the map and to get him again safely to the new point where he is needed while figthing at the same time with some other units. Its really too often that when a game starts to get a higher dynamic those stop again just because a reccon died or because nobody else is smart enough to get a god damn view out of his vehicle using a binocular for a quick enviroment check. And yeah, Vehicles that observe are visible and targets for the enemie but unlike spotters they are nto supposed to remain for a long time on one point to observe an important area. Sometimes it happens that you gonna attack the area which is already observed by spotters and during the assault you quickly need somehting to check the flank of the assault and here vehicles could drive quickly into position, checking out the flanks as long as the assault is going on and then relocate or escape when spotters follow up. I call such things simply improvment of tactical gameplay.


About VT: I dont want to make things equal and one or two units more with VT for luft and inf doc wouldnt bring them on pair with SE or CW which can call VT by several vehicles, Tanks even, officers and whatsoever. But for luft its never used as the doc is playing either with 88 as more defensive doctrine and using units which can repair and protect them or they play with luftwaffe inf mainly as offensive doc and supporting those then rather with Nebler, Marders or the sdkfz 234/4 with 75 mm pak. Seldomly two 88´s and two regiment 5 are fielded at the same time. It happnes and the VT can be usefull there but its not often. Maybe VT not for krad if you dont like it but maybe for the Vampire HT?`Its a doctrine specific unit.

And for inf i do request VT for a unit that can and sometimes do participate during assaults and which is more often in a situation that requires urgent and quick arty support than one of these two spotters. Its just for the captain, thats all i request. And as kind of counterpart in arty strenght is the def doc and here the officer has VT as well.


what i meant with recons do detect hidden units i do mean the range where they can spott hidden units. A sniper wont have such a detection range. So if someone would use sniper as recon and coming into detection range of an enemie recon the sniper would get revealed while the spotter would still be invisible.

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Re: Spotters, Binoculars, VT´s

Postby lunarwolf » 15 Apr 2015, 15:13

Warhawks97 wrote:OK. But can at least officers and some scout vehicles get binoculars? Just to get the game a bit more fluid and for improved dynamics.


spotters are not synonymous with a dynamic/fluid game in my book, sounds more like "artifest" camping to me.

US already get 2 spotters, brits have captain, up to 3 lieutenant and 1 doc has Reece - why do we need anymore is beyond me. also if you play in teams, your teammates also have spotters. otherwise what is the point of having Fog of War in this game?

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Re: Spotters, Binoculars, VT´s

Postby Devilfish » 15 Apr 2015, 18:07

Only one who lack proper spotters are brits because they can't camo (except artilery spotters i think, though still no sneaky crawling mod).
US and WE both have pure spotters, PE has kettle which can camo in a sec.
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Re: Spotters, Binoculars, VT´s

Postby Warhawks97 » 15 Apr 2015, 20:41

lunarwolf wrote:
Warhawks97 wrote:OK. But can at least officers and some scout vehicles get binoculars? Just to get the game a bit more fluid and for improved dynamics.


spotters are not synonymous with a dynamic/fluid game in my book, sounds more like "artifest" camping to me.

US already get 2 spotters, brits have captain, up to 3 lieutenant and 1 doc has Reece - why do we need anymore is beyond me. also if you play in teams, your teammates also have spotters. otherwise what is the point of having Fog of War in this game?


do you play pvp or larger teamfights? it becomes sometimes very nasty when games end up in recon hunting. Booth sides spam recons covered by snipers which should shoot enemie recons as soon as they become visible and the team which spams more recons covered better win at the end.


Spotters should be for some longer observations. The others rather situational for a short time during some ciritcal moves where you just cant get a recon fast enough and to make a quick view to know how to continue an attack if the situatons allows it. I mean in reality i am sure that some officers and tankes used binoculars to change tactic or to react on enemie moves and to rethink/reconsider the own strategy, tactic and to change the tactical goals if neccessary which wouldnt mean they would keep sitting at that point for the next view weeks. So hard to understand? oO

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Re: Spotters, Binoculars, VT´s

Postby Warhawks97 » 03 May 2015, 16:12

I have a question about VT´s.


i noticed that the VT radius is often very different. I want to know which doc has which VT range on which unit.

I could use Terror VT, Luft VT and SE VT over a great distance (with SE Haupsturmführer, Observation tank, Observation HT). CW arty needs to get closer and US inf doc also very dangerous close.


Can we have VT activation radius more standarized and not so randomly set? it sucks.

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Re: Spotters, Binoculars, VT´s

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 03 May 2015, 17:17

Ye, and im all for long range ( as SE or Defence have). You reduced VT activation range of recce and made it so shitty, its impossible to use it on bunker\88 because you need to get TOOOOO close, the old one was MUCH better.

Also i recently told to Hawks in teamspeak that arty balance is sucks actually and needs a lot of rework, in old times alies could compensate axis arty adavantage with using endless VT's of CW arty, but now axis arty is dominating even when alies have experinced arty doc player ( not long ago i played 3v3 as arty doc and my 2 priests had to counter 2 Hummels, Wespe, 210 nebel, 2 150mm nebels, Stuka and some stationary Howitzers from Defence doc).

Just count powerfull arty units which usually occures in late game:

Axis: Stuka, Hummel, Wespe, Grille, 210mm nebels, Maultier, Nebel VT, Flaks VT, 105mm Howitzer.

Alies: Priest and.... thats all? Arty sherman have joke accuracy and range even on vet. 4, 95mm churchill also short range pak killer. Inf Howitzers usually stating alive untill first barrage, then immidiately killed by one of the motorized arty pieces. 25 pounder is joke.

My suggestions here: As you know, im always only for solving a balance problem with buffing, not with downgrading, thats why - Infatry doc recieves Priest unlock instead arty sherman ( 2 available (or 1?)). Arty sherman moves to Armor doc and becoming available together with Calliope unlock.

CW 120mm mortar must be non CP, so as SE one.

Pak Howitzer in AB doc must be non cp, so as luft Nebels.

All VT should have equal LONG range.

95mm Cromwell moves from arty doc to Raf (seriously, somebody ever seen that somebody used it? But in raf doc which have no arty at all it will be very usefull and ofthen buildable)

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Re: Spotters, Binoculars, VT´s

Postby Warhawks97 » 03 May 2015, 18:28

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:Ye, and im all for long range ( as SE or Defence have). You reduced VT activation range of recce and made it so shitty, its impossible to use it on bunker\88 because you need to get TOOOOO close, the old one was MUCH better.

Also i recently told to Hawks in teamspeak that arty balance is sucks actually and needs a lot of rework, in old times alies could compensate axis arty adavantage with using endless VT's of CW arty, but now axis arty is dominating even when alies have experinced arty doc player ( not long ago i played 3v3 as arty doc and my 2 priests had to counter 2 Hummels, Wespe, 210 nebel, 2 150mm nebels, Stuka and some stationary Howitzers from Defence doc).

Just count powerfull arty units which usually occures in late game:

Axis: Stuka, Hummel, Wespe, Grille, 210mm nebels, Maultier, Nebel VT, Flaks VT, 105mm Howitzer.

Alies: Priest and.... thats all? Arty sherman have joke accuracy and range even on vet. 4, 95mm churchill also short range pak killer. Inf Howitzers usually stating alive untill first barrage, then immidiately killed by one of the motorized arty pieces. 25 pounder is joke.

My suggestions here: As you know, im always only for solving a balance problem with buffing, not with downgrading, thats why - Infatry doc recieves Priest unlock instead arty sherman ( 2 available (or 1?)). Arty sherman moves to Armor doc and becoming available together with Calliope unlock.

CW 120mm mortar must be non CP, so as SE one.

Pak Howitzer in AB doc must be non cp, so as luft Nebels.

All VT should have equal LONG range.

95mm Cromwell moves from arty doc to Raf (seriously, somebody ever seen that somebody used it? But in raf doc which have no arty at all it will be very usefull and ofthen buildable)



thats true. I also fought with Hummels vs Priests and i instantly oneshoted all priests (even with low lvl hummel)

Thing here is that as SE i can wait untill Priest shoots. With Hummels i usually ONLY have to counter priests. Allied defenses are taken out by elite inf, heavy armored tanks or arty from other docs. At the other hand the single CW arty player has to destroy enemie defenses, counter enemie arty, killing units like very heavy tanks (or finishing those as those are usually immobilized by sticky and commandos and arty must finish them (except there is an SP maybe).


The inf doc is s joke. A defensive doc using only 88´s has more firepower already. As i mentioned an unemplaced 88 from def doc takes several 105 barrages but 88 arty barrage kills howitzer with 3 shots.

Also pls def doc has as only doc in this game endless access to arty with 88´s. And the VT activates all of them+ 105+grille while inf doc shoots only with howitzers. Also def doc 105 can use long range shots and thus outranging inf doc arty. This makes def doc much stronger in arty than inf doc.


And then all the 0 CP arty. There is only arty doc able to get some 0 CP arty. Axis can get maultiers for 0 cps, walking stuka, nebler and they all just need like 2-3 buildings and all can counter howitzers.



The inf doc should have priests, two of them and more usefull VT. Inf doc has no weapon that can really destroy heavy armor or that can crack heavy defenses. A few 88´s are already hard to kill with inf doc. Ok there is long tom it needs some luck and a still standing tank and defenses need to be cracked as well.


so to get the point:
- two priest for inf doc. Allis would have then at least as many spgs as axis have (SE alone can field 4 SPG´s in extrem situations).
- The 105 sherman for armor doc together with calli unlock. I also thought about it but wasnt sure. But fact is that armor doc can do a shit against defenses. And axis TH like HP and IV/70 are often also only really destroyable by arty). Armor doc simply needs something to deal with massive pak spam. BK and terror have usefull neblers, walking stukas, (Terror off map firestorm) and stormtartillery (stuh). Also elite troops with explosive stuff and even leig18 75 mm arty.
- The AB pack howitzer should not require supply drop first and independent as 2 CP unlock (see my AB tectree Topic)
- Inf doc pack howitzer in motorpool and availble without supply yard. Currently it needs supply yard and fhq.
- cromwell arty to RAF.... i would be carefull here. Maybe also to RE doc?


Thing what i dont get is that axis have heavy armored tanks capable of simply driving through defenses. They have good elite inf and two strong arty docs but at the same time crazy strong defenses which require a shitload of arty to be destroyed. But still why have axis so much more powerfull arty than allied?. It should be the opposite exactly because allied have the weaker tanks and defensive weapons.

And currently it sucks for allied as the entire arty support relys on one single player while all others have almost nothing. So Allied arty is provided exclusively by one doc (the must have arty doc). If he fails or when he is beaten by Hummels the entire team can give up actually.


Allied won the war by Superior air support, arty and fuel. In game its only true for Air support (not counting sd2 bombs).


@markr and others: Alongside with arty buff for allied the frontal armor of axis super heavies could become a way more resistant to US 76 guns and even 17 pdrs as exchange. Just as people complain about 76 shermans killing KT´s i do hate this massive arty use (in early- mid game already) of axis. When there is just like one 37 mm pak and one mg axis already shoot with neblers blindly accross the map for no reason and not even trying to win normal tactic and unit combination!


The 120 mm PE mortar should require unlock and not the heavy CW for free.

Before someone says: "Not again more arty" think about which docs cause the greatest arty use. Its SE, CW arty and maybe def. Thing is that SE is not a essential for arty support on axis side and so it happens that SE is not choosen in games and arty use acceptable from axis side (except that they get them so freaking early). On Allied side all need CW arty even for the smallest support and so allis have to choose one of the most arty causing docs. Some arty buffs in other docs would make CW arty doc less neccessary and so less arty in game.

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DaŇjeL_SK
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Re: Spotters, Binoculars, VT´s

Postby DaŇjeL_SK » 07 May 2015, 16:31

When will be allied arty improved even more it will be unplayable for axis.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Spotters, Binoculars, VT´s

Postby Warhawks97 » 07 May 2015, 21:13

DaŇjeL_SK wrote:When will be allied arty improved even more it will be unplayable for axis.



all allied arty is actually concentarted in one doc. In most games axis are the main arty producer, just saying.

Ive recently played games with random players on booth sides on different maps (even Montragis Region, a voch 4 vs 4 map). In 5 of 6 games we did not use CW arty doctrine and 4 of these ended in a bloody fiasko as we just couldnt break through enemie defenses. Even Long Tom arty failed to destroy an def doc 88 emplacment. Which makes me asking:

Is a single Hummel shell stronger than a long tom shell?

The single game we could win was without CW arty was a game at Montargis region. We had US armor, AB, RAF and inf doc vs Terror, def, BK and luft doc. We did well in the early stage but enemies put more and more units into their defense. We didnt use arty asap and tried 107 mm emplacments, AB 60 mm off map mortar call in, mortars and smoke rounds (later me and the RAF had 4 60 mm mortars from suppy drop in use shooting smoke rounds all the time. But the axis defense which was build up almost in front of their base did contain the typicall set up: MG´s in houses and trenches, snipers, mortar HT´s behind, lots of paks, Panther Bunker, 20 mm flak and even bunker iirc etc. While we tried to break through with commandos and AB´s, snipers, mortars etc we started using calli jeeps. But soon we had to use the entire arty US provides to get through and untill we succeeded the axis had lots of infantry with stgs and schrecks. Means we used everything on arty inf doc provides so far, AB with 75 mm howitzer and calli jeep, US armor calli jeep and so on and axis did not even had the res to get their best defense up (bunkers, 88´s etc) coz they hold only a small part of the map.

The one we played with arty doc is uploaded in forum btw. Luckily the RA player was in teamspeak so i could tell him where to arty and where all these billon paks are being placed.


But the sobering result was that all games (maybe even more than 6 i am not sure anymore) ended in axis defense because allied ha dno coordination. When booth teams were uncoordinated (and esspecially when nobody had arty doc choosen) the games ended for allied in a mix of fixed scout vehicles, PE mortar HT´s, half dozend paks and infantry with lmg/stgs (volksgrens, grens) sooner or later. I am not kidding when i tell you that i´ve seen a pak formation at road to cherbourgh consisting of 2x 50 mm and 1x 75 mm paks on one single ammo point. Fucking one single part got covered by 3 paks. Luckily my rifles found them before the HMG came to save the area.

Then two games at goodwood ending in a loss. Booth teams had two experienced players and 2 newbies. We did a good fight with armor and RAF doc but finally we lost against stuh and an 88. In the second game i had vet 4 arty shermans and 3 howitzers (which got vet 2-4 but later then out of range after they broke enemies first defensive line. The arty sherman killed a ot but not enough to get all the paks and AA tanks. Again a single unemplaced 88 required 3 salvos of arty sherman vet 2 or 3 to be destroyed entirely.

And all that becomes even more nasty when axis start using offensive units for defensive purpose. Means when they put all their Tanks (Panthers, KT, Tankhunters, Tank IV´s and stugs, stuhs) into their defensive closing wholes in their defense when a single pak is taken out by waiting at the same time for their own arty not seldomly consisting then of several neblers, walking stukas or Maultier rocket launchers which destroy the entire allied force without need of any offensive act. Ive recently watched a stream of sukin playing terror doc. First defending (AT squad, reccon, sniper, grens) then smashing enemie with walking stukas and grens+ Panther finished off the bloody shit that remains from allied army. So easy but effective.

Also i played a lot with SE doc and ive won all arty battles against CW arty when using Hummel and even when those got played by experienced players. Only the most experienced CW arty players can win the arty fight against the axis. It was btw relatively easy for me as rather unexperienced arty player to beat the enemies arty when using Hummels. This Brings me to the next question:

Gow is it possible that a single axis doc can field more SPG´s then the entire allied side together? I have to say that two Hummels are often enough to take on CW arty and inf doc at the same time but still, if neccessary a single axis player has the possibility to get 4 spgs which can -depending on map- shoot all when using ammo HT´s with upgrade unlock and res trade. And SPG´s are in every aspect preferable to stationary howitzers which in late are being build only for VT purpose usually.


If you would play games without CW arty on allied and SE on axis side you would quickly realize how badly inferior allied arty is when facing 88 guns (usuable as howitzers), neblers, grille etc. I whish you some enjoyable hours with 1x 105 arty sherman against a crazy wall of defensive stuff and tons of rocket arty and when you will realize that you wasted soo many hours in trying to kill all that stuff without any success. Like it happend to me last night. We accidentially choosed two RAF docs, inf doc player was newbie and i had armor doc. I told to my RAF mate to simply rehost the game and look for a good CW arty player but he didnt want to listen. We fought an hour or more just to capture one more point before the enemie assault of grens, storms+ stuh overruned us. My mate didnt want to stop even when they have got an 88 covered my luft inf and stuh knowing that neither RAF nor armor doc has the instruments to fight against it doesnt matter how god like the micro managment is and the guy i am talking about is probably the player with the best micro gameplay and unit managment!

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Warhawks97
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Re: Spotters, Binoculars, VT´s

Postby Warhawks97 » 17 May 2015, 22:47

Ok, i am watching currently sukins stream and i noticed that luftwaffe 88 VT can be used by Hauptsturmführer as well. So in all docs with VT ability the def doc is the only one where captain cant call it.

Terror, Luftwaffe, SE, CW arty doc can use their VT´s by their Officers. Just US captain cant use VT for the arty units.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Spotters, Binoculars, VT´s

Postby Warhawks97 » 24 Aug 2015, 23:39

I once again want to come back to this one.

It would be so great to have a few more spotting abilties on some units for temporarily reconassaince. It would increase tactical options and movments by soooo much. Assaults would be last longer than just few meters and generally. You often looking for one of the 1-2 spotters unit trying to bring these fragile units safety to the new area while fighting at the same time.


I mean really. Binoculars for officers and certain vehicles. It would really be awesome. And maybe spotters for brits. They suffer a lot of lacking reccons. Esspecially For RE its hard while the doc needs most recconassaince due to slow movment of units. So they have much longer reorganization times and relocating times of units (esspecially tanks) but the basically non existing warning time doesnt allow effective defensive organisation when a territory got just taken. So very often just captured territories get lost again just becuase there was a reconassaince when it was needed to orientate effectively towards instant counter attacks.


would it really be that wrong to enable a few more units to use binoculars while adding some reccons to brits?

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Re: Spotters, Binoculars, VT´s

Postby BOVindy » 25 Aug 2015, 01:40

I know that I am the new guy in this and that my opinion may not carry as much weight as the others, but I did notice a few things that I liked. I am mostly suggesting changes to Allied artillery power, as I feel like they need a mild boost to remain competitive. These suggestions are not mutually exclusive, don't feel the need to support all of them.

1.) Werhmacht and Panzer Elite - Terror, Defensive, and Luftwaffe doctrines - Increase 150mm nebel cap to 4. Test to see if it is too powerful.

2.) Werhmacht - unlocking the schwimmwagen alongside the bike sounds fantastic. Adding binoculars would make it an appealing option if you had to choose one over the other, especially in infantry only mode. Giving it a camouflage function would help it rival the kettengrad without the ability to capture points, though it might seem powerful considering Werhmacht already has aufklaerer (scout).

3.) Panzer Elite - Scorched Earth - I noticed in another post that either Mark or Warhawk suggested replacing the captured sherman with a heavy mortar halftrack. I LOVE that idea, and if it didn't replace the captured sherman, than another option would be for it to either replace or supplement the mortar bunker. (as a side note, if this ever went into effect, the delayed air burst rounds are fantastic.)

4.) British - CW Artillery doctrine - If air burst is going to cost a doctrine unlock point, then any sized artillery that the British have should be able to use it. (priest, 107mm mortars, 25 pounders, and even the little 51mm mortars). Also, it should not be on a per use basis for any unit. All units that can use air burst (including the 51mm mortar and the 25 pounder) should have a set-it-and-forget-it type of purchase, similar to the axis heavy mortar. Adding the 51mm mortar to the air burst unlock would add loads of utility to the little guys, and would make camouflage ambushes much more deadly.

5.) British - CW Artillery doctrine - On a related note, the counter battery unlock should affect the British 107mm mortar. This could be too powerful, so I'd love it if others could provide some feedback here.

6.) British - CW Artillery doctrine - Creeping barrage for 51mm mortars after veterency level 2. Similar to axis 81mm mortar unlocks, again versatility is the new black, or something like that.

7.) British - CW Artillery doctrine - Replace fake deployment unlock with a mobile 25 pounder unlock. Move it to come after the concealed smoke unlock. Built by the field support truck, similar the mighty pak 43 in the Werhmacht Defensive doctrine, only used as artillery instead of anti-tank. (manpower/fuel/munitions costs negotiable)

8.) U.S.A. - All doctrines - Calliope, rocket jeep, 107mm mortar, 105mm sherman, 105mm howitzer. Veterency level 2 incendiary barrage unlock.

9.) U.S.A. - Infantry doctrine - 107mm mortar emplacement replaced with mobile 107mm mortar group. Limited to 2, manpower/fuel/munitions negotiable.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Spotters, Binoculars, VT´s

Postby Warhawks97 » 25 Aug 2015, 16:28

I appreciate that you already figured out that allis are few steps behind the axis one. But i think everybody figures that out quickly. We have got Arty cromwell to RAF which is good thing. We currently want the 105 sherman in armor doc and the 75 mm pack howitzer in AB or inf doc motorpool (currently only in fhq and as 4 cp unlock and drop).

1. Why not, but i dont see how it will have any greater impact. I´d rather like to have increased cooldown and some more "scatter" and no accuracy increase with vet as its a rocket arty.
2. Sounds not bad. But ambush option would be crazy. Like a mobile MG42 ambush lol. But binoculars on certain vehicles and for officers would be grea.t
3. Wow... model?
4. ^^
5. wouldnt mind. But i havent played RA in a longer time since others always want to play it.
6. yes.
7. We once asked for movable howitzers. We could do that for US and axis 105 but for brits 25 pdr was no model that could move iirc.
8. nah... not with vet... such things with tec unlock but not simply generally due to vet.
9. Emplacment not removed. Its often part of the inf docs defensive strategy. Adding a mobile one would be ok for me maybe, but the emplacment is simply essnetial part of inf doc.



But that topic isnt about arty actually or at least not mainly. I generally ask for some more binoculars for tacitcal, gameplay and dyncamicl reasons but also for some realism. As if only two men with special training can use a binocular. We have besides the officers also many vehicles with receonassaince purposes and semi purposes (jeeps, schwims, bikes, rece, m20, vampire maybe and arty observer truck and even puma and greyhound actually) just that they cant really fill their role and are instead not recon vehicles but rather anti recon vehicles. So that endless spotter/anti spotter "argy-bargy" or recon skirmishes greatly slow down games and becoming from time to time frustrating when it takes like an hour before anything really happens (besides arty).
Last edited by Warhawks97 on 25 Aug 2015, 20:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Redgaarden
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Re: Spotters, Binoculars, VT´s

Postby Redgaarden » 25 Aug 2015, 18:54

The m20 feels kinda empty without any abilities so i vote 1+ for giving it binocs
Rifles are not for fighting. They are for building!


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