MG42 / Browning balancing suggestions.

[Nypermax]

Hi everyone ! (Sorry for bad english)

My friend and I often play that excellent BK mod against AI (Often in difficult mode, but the observation below is for easy and regular mode too), and after a lot of games, we have some balancing suggestions.

First of all, we both agree to say that the MG42 is way too powerful. Way more than the Browning.
When a MG42 shoots, it block every single infantry unit in a stupidly high area, while having no problems killing everything that come across in a few seconds.


For Example, on St Lô, a MG was posted at the red position with approximatively the red firing angle. My units in blue was insta-blocked and killed in a few seconds. (Paratroops, 82st and 101st) But the real problem is that the units in green (they wasn't AT ALL aimed by the machinegun) was blocked too. (82st, officier veterancy 3 and Rangers veterancy 2) They was no enemy troops near to the green units. (Sorry i didn't screen the original map, but i will remember my entire life what happened in this game )



We made a test, in order to compare the german MG to the US Browning, against 60 infantry units.

This test was realised in a 1 V 1 game on the Beach assault, with Veterancy 0 units, with no upgrades and no additionnal weapons.
The covers for the experiences was exaclty the same for the 2 machineguns and for infantry units.

the results are :

- The MG42 block infantry units a bit slower than the Browning, BUT The Mg42 kill units a lot faster than the Browning
- . The infantry nearly reached the Machinegun squad before it started to kill the units.
After 20 seconds of shooting, MG killed 5 soldiers, and Browning only 1.

Again, this video is pure Theory. In a regular game against AI, the MG can butcher two veteran 82squad lead by a HQ section in exaclty 20 - 30 seconds.

Replay of the experience : http://youtu.be/0rsGXfpjFxs

This Mod is very good, and makes us enjoy the game like we never do. But, maybe re-balanced the machineguns ? Thanks for reading, and keep on going !

[Tony_Frost]

"It was done for balancing reasons" - that answer you will receive from most of forum members.

[Nypermax]

I don't understand... Make a machinegun more powerful than an other okay, but here the MG is way overpowered.
Or bugged.

[Tony_Frost]

For some reason almost every US unit is crap as hell, even if in irl it was good.

Another reason - in VCOH US MG was bad, but had AP bullets abulity, while WM MG was better but without AP.
In BK developers buff all damadge also gives almost all MG AP abulity, as a result - Axis MG became better in every point.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Well, the MG42 had a higher rate of fire than the Allies HMGs in real life as it's probably regarded to be one of the best Machine guns ever built... And btw, both the US 30.cal and the Brits Vickers 'suppression' seem to be much buffed since 486! But hey Tony.. ur claim about that all US units are crap here is surely just a mislead.

[Nypermax]

Oh okay. But the fact that in BK MG has AP AND Higher damage is not unbalanced ?

I have read some things in this forum about balancing teams, and many of people think same as us. Axis is more powerful than US Army. With British it's different.
But when we play US, it's difficult to win a game.

In Infantry Only it is worse, beacause of that MG literraly ANNIHILATE my sections veterancy 4 lead by officier and HQ... It's kind of frustrating..

(out of topic )( Same on Antitank infantry. US Rangers and 82st are CRAP, they keeps missing or ricochet.
But Panzerschreck are very powerful.)

[Krieger Blitzer]

Playing as Allies maybe requires more skills... While playing as Axis requires u to be smart. It's not hard to win as US anyhow!

[MarKr]

Afaik Xali made MG42s superior because he wantd them to be kinda iconic for the mod and didn't want them to be changed in any drastic way. However that wide suppression area seems a bit off've never noticed that

I have read some things in this forum about balancing teams, and many of people think same as us. Axis is more powerful than US Army. With British it's different.
But when we play US, it's very difficult to win a game.

If you read some more you'll find a post from Wolf where he said that in BK Allies have cheaper but weaker units while Axis have more expensive but also deadlier units. Because of this it is harder for Allies to win sometimes because you need to make more units and take care of them in order for them to be effective which requires a lot of micro management which takes time to learn properly, while as Axis you can usually build only a few strong units which are much more capable of doing quite a mess on their own, therefore you don't need to micro them so much which makes it easier to play as Axis.
However since this was an intention from the start of BK it won't be changed.

[Warhawks97]

This is one of the other "quality at all cost" vs "quantity trash at all cost" thing i described:

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=421 (the long post)


The Mg42 shoots (1200-1500) approx three times faster as an 1917 (450-600 rounds) but thats once again not the only advantage. As the accuracy would actually be lower (its pure logic that a very high rof results in a bigger waste of bullets. The chance to hit something is bigger as there isnt so much "space" between the bullets but as side effect a lot more bullets would not hit any target.) But in BK the 1917 and mg42 have same accuracy which means that out of 100 rounds the ammount of bullets which hit the target is the same just that the time span in which this is done is shorter for the axis weapon. And even that would be "acceptable" but nooooooooooo.... each axis bullets deals once again more damage than an allied bullet (altough calibre is actually the same or different not really notable). Its again made just to add quality on one side and quantity at the other.


We had btw (or a mate rather) some fun during a pvp in a game that was won already. More important as the fact that he did it just for fun is that a single alli HMG can stop maybe one axis squad but two stormtooper squads will overrun it under most circumstances. Then he did that with allis and as inf doc and he used 24 infantry units (rangers and combat engineers) to engage an MG42 frontally. All units got shred (the best allis have) within seconds losing 50% of all men almost at once (144 rangers and combat engineers with some of them vet 2). The MG42 crew lost not even one men during that fight.


The justification is that axis cost more than allis (US 270 mp/15 ammo and brits 300/15 and axis 350/30). Its approx 30% more expensive but more than twice as deadly.

Here it would help again if the accuracy values (here in game they describe the number of bullets that hit the target and not how handy or unhandy something is and thus the Mg42 would simply waste more bullets over time and distances) would be readjusted for mg42 ( still number of bullets hitting the target per second would still be higher due to massivly higher rof even when accuracy values would be lower) and if the US bullets would deal the same damage as an axis bullet. At the same time cost differences would be lower between the HMG´s and mg42´s would cost maybe less mp as US HMG but more ammo- just a thought. The result of mixed infantry and HMG weapon engagment would be more dependend on better micro managment and not on the cost of the units. Performence differences would still be there but not so unrealistic drastically.

From my personal experience i´ve seen an HMG42 crew running into an HMG ambush which had green cover and the HMg42 started setting up in yellow cover and winning the HMG vs HMG engagment with one men left while all of US HMg died. So axis HMG survived and beat allis HMG ambush just because "it was more expensive and a superior quality weapon". Such things really bother me in every game.

[Wolf]

You can also see quite a difference in price. Damage and suppression of MG42 is wanted feature. You can also capture it (and I was thinking about making mg42 droppable, like other weapons, even when its not deployed - currently its always lost).
Suppression area setup isn't exactly good on many BK weapons, I noticed that when I was reducing crusader AA too, so its not entirely unknown, but isn't considered as huge deal. Some tuning may be done in future, but priorities first. MGs are currently kind of skill testers for many people, you can see how fast it suppresses, but almost nobody seems to cover their units with it properly or do something with them at all.

Warhawks example is pretty unreal (or rather ultra dumb) scenario in non-fun game, because you have much more means of killing the MG than rushing it front, which will of course pin them down fast (+ there are still blob debuffs, so...). And IIRC US HMG has better accuracy and damage difference is minimal.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Wolf said:-
" Warhawks example is pretty unreal (or rather ultra dumb) scenario in non-fun game, because you have much more means of killing the MG than rushing it front, which will of course pin them down fast (+ there are still blob debuffs, so...). And IIRC US HMG has better accuracy and damage difference is minimal. "

+1 I totally agree...

[Erich]

'' playing as Axis requires u to be smart'' Frontally rush is very smart. Not always there are many ways to kill a mg,.
'US HMG has better accuracy and damage difference is minimal.'' US HMG cant supress a single volks squad in green cover while mg42 supress everything even in green cover.


hawks example is real,more shots more chance to miss.

[Krieger Blitzer]

@Erich;
Regarding the frontal rushes btw..
Those US AT inf squads specifically when equipped with 3 inf doc upgraded Zookas or those AB units with 6 Recoilles rifles as well... Are probably the most ugly frontally tank rushers through the whole game. Also while keeping in mind that it's even worse since there is actually no such a similar great HE tank like the Sherman on the Axis side in order to effectively protect their heavies from them unless u have an Ostwind which is only available on a significant single doc!
Allies HMGs are suppressing very sufficiently after the patch 4.86 already; So I don't really know what's the problem then.

By mentioning 'smart playing' I meant that u seriously have to always keep ur eyes open too on ur costly Axis units not to suddenly lose them by the several 'click to kill' abilities found on the Allies side.

[Warhawks97]

You can also see quite a difference in price. Damage and suppression of MG42 is wanted feature. You can also capture it (and I was thinking about making mg42 droppable, like other weapons, even when its not deployed - currently its always lost).
Suppression area setup isn't exactly good on many BK weapons, I noticed that when I was reducing crusader AA too, so its not entirely unknown, but isn't considered as huge deal. Some tuning may be done in future, but priorities first. MGs are currently kind of skill testers for many people, you can see how fast it suppresses, but almost nobody seems to cover their units with it properly or do something with them at all.

Warhawks example is pretty unreal (or rather ultra dumb) scenario in non-fun game, because you have much more means of killing the MG than rushing it front, which will of course pin them down fast (+ there are still blob debuffs, so...). And IIRC US HMG has better accuracy and damage difference is minimal.

which example? I made no example i said what i saw already. I simply said that two (sometimes one) axis inf squad can overrun allis HMG (usually def doc grens, stormtoopers, luft inf etc. If you put Volks behind green cover they will usually beat allis HMG (even when those are in green cover as well) on max range (and even medium sometimes). But a batshit ammound of allis inf units (the best they have) cant stand a chance regardless how many they are but axis just need two squads or one to overrun the allis HMg? Where is this ok? But currently its always: "play axis and you overrun allis HMG´s.... no prob. Play allis and you must find any other ways" Thing is that not even flanking works well against HMG 42 as it simply suppresses on wide angel but also no allis squad can "draw" MG´s fire long enough so that another can successfully flank.


And nobody covers his units with HMGs..... you making good jokes today.
- As allied it makes little sense as most HMG crews get simply rushed, killed when a single axis squad has green cover or-like most of the time- get smashed by first nebler that comes after 5 mins or PE mortar car usually. So best is to rush fast for vehicles with US to get M16. HMG´s wont survive long. In late game i prefer the emplacments as allis. When tanks rushing my lines the emplacments will at least keep alive to shoot the enemie infantry and thus isolate the german tanks if those ignore the emplacments or the tanks stop to kill the emplacment first. I need them to "buy" time to get more units to counter the attack. Weapon crews would die within a second by the fire of top mounted Mg42´s etc. So in early no HMG due to early PE mortars and neblers and in late game emplacment are more durable and can slow down enemie advances.

- As axis i never buy HMG42. In early game i just cant throw grenades anymore or i cant use Pak HE rounds. So i have rather pak+ protecting inf and can use hE rounds or nades instead one HMG. Later 350 mp is too expensive. Its just wasted then against mortars and snipers. Again i rather go for vehicles and esspecially the 20 mm kwk and my offense and defense is purely based on flexibility except one 50 mm pak later. Also the firepower of volks with lmg34 supported by Puma with 20 mm kwk is the same if not better. So for gameplay reasons it would also not hurt if the HMg42 wouldnt cost so freaking much but also wouldnt shred all squads in one second even when those have some cover. The US is ok in cost and effectivness (i use it in 2 vs 2 sometimes) is it stops basic inf but still possible to beat with flank attacks.


3 vs 3 and 4 vs 4 are simply too fast for usefull tacticl use of HMG´s. The Allis cant do anything against so many grens and axis elite inf in general which come faster than in 2 vs 2 games. And the Axis HMG is freaking hell deadly and kind of "cover ignoring" but for me simply too expensive to find a place in my armies and i am not a friend of playing axis so static with only paks and HMG´s (which many other players do).



and damage different isnt much? in most cases it is.... very often the lowest possible damage of an axis bullet is as high as the highest possible damage of alli bullet with same calibre. Accuracy is also usually better for axis or at least the same but ive never found anything where allis have better accuracy values.

[V13dweller]

Warhawks is very good at fabricating this kind of thing, like the situations with the 76(w), when I debunked that with two videos.

"Oooooh oooh oooooh, Axis is godlike apocalyptic vs allies! nerf it quickly!" (Dramatization)

[MarKr]

But a batshit ammound of allis inf units (the best they have) cant stand a chance regardless how many they are but axis just need two squads or one to overrun the allis HMg?

As Wolf already said:

which will of course pin them down fast (+ there are still blob debuffs, so...)

That means that MGs get more effective when they fire into a blob and the bigger the blob the bigger the effect. So when you say that two Axis squad can rush HMG but 20 (or how many) allied squads get shreded, it is because you actually buff the HMG effectiveness if you attack in such a huge blob.

Most of MGs in the game work like this:
When an MG fires at an infantry squad, it actually targets only one soldier. Every bullet fired at this soldier has a chance to hit him and deal damage. Every shot which is calculated as a "miss" has stil chance to hit other soldiers in certain radius around the targeted soldier and the chance to hit someone else goes up the higher number of soldiers is around. I don't know how many soldiers can be crammed into the radius (I don't think it is 20 squads thou, I think less).
And suppression works on a similar principle - bullet doesn't have to hit a soldier, it is enough to land in a certain radius from the soldier but again, the more soldiers around, the bigger effect. (However MGs have nerfs against suppressed infantry and even bigger nerfs against pinned infantry - all these buffs and nerfs combine together so getting some clear numbers is hard here)

As Tiger wrote, the suppression of HMGs was increased in 4.8.6.0. We kept MG42s suppression dominant but Vickers and .30cals got quite a buff.

[Devilfish]

The way to go might be not nefring mg42, but buffing allied mgs, though they are not that bad atm, mg42 is just annihilator .

Suppression is kinda wierd, since units get suppressed or pinned even when behind hard cover like houses and such obstacles, especially annoying when facing wehr def building mgs or pe set up scout cars....(still dont know why you should get insta-pinned by these, while not from common mg42).

Idea of dropping mg and mortar even if not set up is awesome, i dont see a real reason why it should disappear while moving.

[Wake]

Suppression is kinda wierd, since units get suppressed or pinned even when behind hard cover like houses and such obstacles, especially annoying when facing wehr def building mgs or pe set up scout cars....(still dont know why you should get insta-pinned by these, while not from common mg42).

Lol scout car is a different story. It actually costs less MP than the MG42 but when you lock-down a sector, it gives you bulletproof, long range, 360 degree coverage of automatic insta-pin that denies all infantry in the game from approaching. And if you feel like leaving, you can pack up in about 3 seconds and speed away.

That's better than an MG42. Even AT squads are useless vs lock-downed scout car. You need a scout + AT gun or a tank to kill it, and often times the scout car can escape before being destroyed.

[Warhawks97]

Warhawks is very good at fabricating this kind of thing, like the situations with the 76(w), when I debunked that with two videos.

"Oooooh oooh oooooh, Axis is godlike apocalyptic vs allies! nerf it quickly!" (Dramatization)

you havent seen my replays where i literally ignore all US 76 mm paks and tanks and rushing them. Well:

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=434
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=423


Without HVAP they can pen anything. Also in this respect i want the 76 a bit better vs medium armor with basic AP rounds but less effective against JT´s etc.


Your vids had been epic fails anyway (if you talk about this funny 4 e8 vs 1 tiger bridge meeting at lyon where no tank is driving in a completely unrealistic pvp scenario).

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Oh, shit storm started again. Calm down, game is pretty balanced currently, i even feel easier when playing alies to be honest, because using good micro and skill you can beat axis units with counterparts which are much cheaper ( 1 shoted panther by ambushed Hellcat as example). Moreover, alies also have lots of benefits even in early game ( jeep absolutely superior to schwim and bike, fast cap with rifles, bullet proof brec carier with vickers, early OP points with HQ cars, earlies auto weapon - Greese guns, raf recce with insane sight, etc and etc.)

[V13dweller]

You don't understand the point of a Control Test, and I can't watch your cherry picked replays, since I run a homebrew mod, and don't even play BK anymore.

And you say I epic fail? Your the single most biased person I have ever met, and that includes diehard political sympathizers! And then you say I epic fail? Once again you lower the bar further, your the single reason I rarely visit this forum, you are a terrible person, you live in a black and white world, you only see what you want to see. It's like you don't even read what you post, you just expect everyone else to go along with you. You cherry pick your sources so they show your point of view but no one else s, you only see what you want to see.

You have no credibility what so ever, like the boy who cried wolf, I never take you seriously, since your bias is clear as crystal, bright as day.

Just anticipating what the next word that dribbles out of your mouth (Or hands and keyboard) makes me cringe, as I know it's something either an attack on myself, or a plead to the dev's to buff the Shermans, Nerf the Axis, blah blah blah! Your like a broken record, your stuck in a loop, you have been going on about the same crap since I started reading this forum, a good while before I even became a public poster yet you still go on and on about the same stuff.


Why do you think my group and I stayed on 4.8.1.0 for so long? It was balanced enough that both sides stood a good enough chance against each other to win, we play a homebrew mod now, as BK has failed to satisfy us, and on the course it is on now, I doubt it ever will, and this forum is so polluted by your nonsense, it could kill even the most basic of living things.


Need I say more?

[Warhawks97]

You don't understand the point of a Control Test, and I can't watch your cherry picked replays, since I run a homebrew mod, and don't even play BK anymore.

And you say I epic fail? Your the single most biased person I have ever met, and that includes diehard political sympathizers! And then you say I epic fail? Once again you lower the bar further, your the single reason I rarely visit this forum, you are a terrible person, you live in a black and white world, you only see what you want to see. It's like you don't even read what you post, you just expect everyone else to go along with you. You cherry pick your sources so they show your point of view but no one else s, you only see what you want to see.

You have no credibility what so ever, like the boy who cried wolf, I never take you seriously, since your bias is clear as crystal, bright as day.

Just anticipating what the next word that dribbles out of your mouth (Or hands and keyboard) makes me cringe, as I know it's something either an attack on myself, or a plead to the dev's to buff the Shermans, Nerf the Axis, blah blah blah! Your like a broken record, your stuck in a loop, you have been going on about the same crap since I started reading this forum, a good while before I even became a public poster yet you still go on and on about the same stuff.


Why do you think my group and I stayed on 4.8.1.0 for so long? It was balanced enough that both sides stood a good enough chance against each other to win, we play a homebrew mod now, as BK has failed to satisfy us, and on the course it is on now, I doubt it ever will, and this forum is so polluted by your nonsense, it could kill even the most basic of living things.


Need I say more?

ive just read your final sentence as i doubt you said anything usefull but i guess its allied fanboy blabla although more than half of the bk players or guys in forum agree with me and tell me in steam that i made fair points and no they are not all friends, fans or whatever of me. And you havent noticed that i found jeep imbalanced in 4.8.7 and OP in early game (esspecially vs WE)... YES i found an alli unit OP...

Edit: Ok ive read it and yeah, it was a fail..... NEVER ever does it happen that one tiger faces 4 e8 shermans and where no unit drives and where the tiger takes 4 shots for one own. It is all the time micro managment and backward or forward driving and sometimes the tiger can pick up one by one with good micro. Also the two replays are made in 4.8.8. If you want you can check every replay here in game and you will quickly realize that ambushed Hellcats with commander+HVAP is the only moment where the US 76 gun is usefull and very deadly (if you wait untill enemie tank comes close enough). But in offensive moments its often really disappointing and needs lots of player experience (and vet+commander+HVAP). And if you play homebrew mod why do you still care about the forum and posts here. I also dont force you to read my posts but still you do. Why? Why do you waste your time then to read them?

[Krieger Blitzer]

@Dweller; I think I saw that pretty old testing video which was urs about a Tiger tank being knocked out by 4 E8s on the bridge of the map Lyon... Actually such a combat would simply never occur or happen like this way! Unless the Axis player is then too dumb. Also, as I said through out one of my recently posts somewhere.. it makes a huge difference really if u shoot 4 shells all almost at the same time at a single target and when to shoot the same 4 shells at the same target but not all to be fired at the same time! I mean both situations would lead to totally various results anyways.
But hey; I wonder about if u r tracking my game replays or my YouTube videos maybe???!!! If the Tiger tank was so underpowered in Bk mod like u tried to prove, then how could I so frequently score all those high kills successfully while wining a lot of epic battles too??!! U just need to be more smart I guess! Don't forget that there is a luck factor also btw.

[V13dweller]

Does no one here understand the point of a Control Test? No one? I was just proving that one in 3 rounds will penetrate a tiger frontally from max range.

And Warhawks, go stick it, your a tosser and I hate reading your cringeworthy posts, I don't care what pour out of you next, your uncivilized and you have a confirmation bias.

The fact I even wasted my time on you, shows I had nothing better to do, but not anymore, I could just disregard everything you say instead of reading your pollution.

[Krieger Blitzer]

It's very well known that the 76 is damn weird, the most fking random gun in performance over the whole game currently! Sometimes they can just one shot one kill Pz4s and even Tigers.. while other times they struggle penetrating Stugs... This is something we all are used to see and not a surprising thing anymore