Regular AT Infantry Secondary Weapon(s)

[Red]

Fellow gamers,

I would like to bring forth a proposal regarding the regular AT infantry, built at the barracks without any CP investment:
The suggestion is to have those soldiers not equipped with AT weapons carry SMGs instead of rifles. While this would buff their anti-infantry effectiveness at short range, it would at the same time also reduce the effective range drastically.
And this is actually what the change is about for me.
Currently I keep having the issue, that when trying to set up an AT ambush the knuckleheads with the rifles will take pot shots at other infantry over quite a distance, giving away the position of the squad and rendering the ambush useless. Giving them SMGs, I would hope that they would only open fire at much shorter range.
As this change is advocated for all doctrines, I would not believe that it would cause much of a balance issue.

I would like to use this thread to also pose a question where I am currently lacking the historic knowledge:
Why does the Panzer Elite AT squad only come with one AT weapon, when all the others come with 2? (If I remember correctly Tank Support has an upgrade possibility for CP, but the other PE Docs do not.)
This currently is an imbalance in my view, and it could obviously continue to be so under my proposal (3x MP40 instead of 2x).

Happy to gather your views!

[Consti255]

No for me.
Since they are a 4men without a heavy weapon they shouldnt get MPs.
To counter AT inf you should walk close to them to kill them.
I can see already rifles getting fucked by the 2 guys while pushing into them.

PE is general stronger from the stats iirc and also have the ability to faust and hollow charge.
Getting the CP upgrade turns them into insane tankbuster capable of destroying any tank nearly instant except the MKVII.

[MarKr]

The PE AT squad is what Consti said - they have just one schreck but they can throw the AT nades and also have panzerfaust ability. So when you have the ammo and really need to destroy some tank, they usually do it easier than other faction's AT squads.

[Consti255]

Do they have better stats aswell?
Because i feel like they do even good vs infanty when in buildings.

[kwok]

This idea was already "tested" in patches long ago where an AT squad had just 1 mp40 smg with just a team of 4 people. This was a nightmare to balance against because that squad became an all purpose every squad that countered any opening unit. There was never any reason to build a jeep or a riflemen squad in the opening, it was always US build HMG then riflemen to cap while the WM player had a free early game win with just 1 squad. If everyone had this, then the game just becomes AT squads vs AT squads. Even right now, I'd probably vote to remove SMG's from MG teams because it makes flanking clearly frontally strong units a risk. Units should excel in their role and lose out in others, otherwise units that are intended to be well rounded (riflemen, volks, etc.) become useless.

As for the 2 schrecks vs 1 imbalance, PE gets the luxury of a lot more AT options relative to other factions. A highly mobile AT unit (28mm armored car) at t1 for an entire faction is something only the US faction has within the armor doctrine (recoiless rifle jeep). Access to 37mm halftracks, 50mm AT guns at t1, 75mm AT guns, marders with no need to unlock CP, etc... All these units should provide plenty of options to counter allied vehicles whereas the other factions either need to commit to a doctrine or make CP unlocks to have the same level of variety/options. Learning how to select, combine, and optimize among many options is the skill in the game that gives PE a high skill cap as a faction, which means it's hard to use but extremely rewarding to use.

As for "same as all other factions for the sake of balance" argument: PE also gets a huge advantage of T1 vehicles. Wouldn't that be an imbalance for allied players? Should greyhounds and m20's be available right at tier 1? Not every faction is meant to be the same. Otherwise we should give all US/CW units farther grenade range because that's an "imbalance".

[Consti255]

100% on Kwok.
When i get a penny for every time my Inf. got moe down by a MP gunner from an MG team i´d be rich rich.
Just the fact that the squad gets so much firepower is stupid. Even pushing on them when they are in a building is almost suicied in the early fights.

[Red]

Thank you very much for your replies!

I mostly see the point about SMGs, especially if this was tried and discarded. On that issue, there are two things to further discuss:

• The SMGs for the MG teams (different topic, but I totally agree with the reasoning, that if it is not ok for At teams, why should it be ok for MGs or Mortars)

• The original problem I observed with AT teams: how to keep them from fireing their rifles when they should be concealing themselves?

As far as the Panzer Elite AT goes, I have a vastly different view, at least for Luftwaffe.
I am 100% certain that the AT team has a regular hand grenade and not an AT hand granade.
I see that the PE has the 28mm car, but for me that is more comparable to the AT Rifle squad of the Brits than the Panzerschreck, Bazooka or PIAT. The 28mm works well against light tanks, whereas with the standard weapon of the AT team, it is possible to destroy heavy tanks. Honestly I have never tried to go against a Pershing with 28mm car, but I know a Wehrmacht AT team can deal with that tank in confined quarters. Likewise Bazooka and PIAT for Tiger and Panther.
The 50mm AT gun is the standard AT gun of the Germans, just like the UK has the 6 pounder and the US the 57mm (same gun, different designation). So this is not a PE specificity. And it works well against light tanks, works so-so against mediums and does not work at all against heavies.
Luftwaffe to my knowledge neither has access to 37mm Halftracks nor 75mm AT guns. And again, it would be the same predicament as for the 28mm. While the 75mm is great against standard medium, especially when it comes to Jumbo Shermans I have massive issues with this gun (when playing as Def Doc) in terms of performance. If I manage to ambush a Jumbo with Schrecks, that is much less of an issue.
Overall, when speaking about Luft, I often struggle later in the game against allied heavies. There is the 88mm emplacement for 5CP as long as the allies do not have artillery or planes. There is the Panther for 5CP, but the turn speed and turret turn speed is so slow, if it gets outflanked it is not hard to take out (and it is quite exensive, so hard to spam them). Panter IV F and Marder I are also inadequate against heavies.
What is of course possible is to combine the Schrecks of all 3 Fallschirmjäger squads with one Squad and use this as AT infantry. But at 1200 resources, that is a bit pricy, and once that squad gets wiped out you need to sacrifice the other squads in order to call in new ones and get new Schrecks. Which is very uncool, if you have veterancy, so not really a viable option.

When it comes to Scoreched Earth, I hardly play this so I cannot comment. I play Panzer Support a bit more frequently, pretty much always with tanks, but a bit more frequently for me is still not enough to properly make a stement for that doctrine.

So I will make a seperate topic on the AT capabilities of the Luftwaffe, in order to keep things proper.

[Warhawks97]

PE AT squad has normal grenade and Panzerfaust. In TS doc it gets access to second schreck which also upgrades the Panzerfaust to have more range and the HL thing.
The thing with double schreck upgrade in TS doc is, that i barely see a reason getting it currently. Sometimes i think about having this upgrade rather in the SE doc than TS doc which actually has plenty of stuff to deal with enemie armor.


About the HMG squads having smgs guards, in the past only axis used to have this luxury and was often able to even defeat against jeeps when those got too close. So we added it to US HMG crews (which only had carabines) as those often got shred to pieces when a schwimmwagen flanked it. I think brits still have the Rifles. I wouldnt mind with HMG crews having rifles. I am ok either way.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

PE AT squad has normal grenade and Panzerfaust. In TS doc it gets access to second schreck which also upgrades the Panzerfaust to have more range and the HL thing.
The thing with double schreck upgrade in TS doc is, that i barely see a reason getting it currently. Sometimes i think about having this upgrade rather in the SE doc than TS doc which actually has plenty of stuff to deal with enemie armor.


About the HMG squads having smgs guards, in the past only axis used to have this luxury and was often able to even defeat against jeeps when those got too close. So we added it to US HMG crews (which only had carabines) as those often got shred to pieces when a schwimmwagen flanked it. I think brits still have the Rifles. I wouldnt mind with HMG crews having rifles. I am ok either way.

I would add that 3 CP for a Schreck + longer faust range is INSANE. Besides, this doc is missing fuel trade so hard. It has all the heaviest tanks in the game, but barely ever able to get more than 1 at the same time due to insane prices.

[Consti255]

PE AT got:
normal grenade, Faust and a hollow charge (the same that Grenadiers in def doc have)

[Warhawks97]

PE AT squad has normal grenade and Panzerfaust. In TS doc it gets access to second schreck which also upgrades the Panzerfaust to have more range and the HL thing.
The thing with double schreck upgrade in TS doc is, that i barely see a reason getting it currently. Sometimes i think about having this upgrade rather in the SE doc than TS doc which actually has plenty of stuff to deal with enemie armor.


About the HMG squads having smgs guards, in the past only axis used to have this luxury and was often able to even defeat against jeeps when those got too close. So we added it to US HMG crews (which only had carabines) as those often got shred to pieces when a schwimmwagen flanked it. I think brits still have the Rifles. I wouldnt mind with HMG crews having rifles. I am ok either way.

I would add that 3 CP for a Schreck + longer faust range is INSANE. Besides, this doc is missing fuel trade so hard. It has all the heaviest tanks in the game, but barely ever able to get more than 1 at the same time due to insane prices.

I am playing TS doc a lot (basically only) and there are quite many shortcomings in my opinion. 3 CP for a schreck is one issue.

I have been trying to use different unlock schemes. Like going inf first or arty. But at the end it all comes down to having tanks or not. You can go whatever unlock path, when the first churchills, jumbos or 76 shermans occure, you must have tanks on your own on the field. Usually Jagdpanzer IV/70 and Jagdpanther or straight panther. But thats a lot to go for.

The cheap production of F2´s and Marders also dont help that much usually. And the Mark target thing for inf is kinda pointless. The combat and esspecially tank combat can go so quick, that there is no time to pick the inf, get it into range and mark a stupid target. Just put a Tank commander inside a tank, go for vet level and thats it. So, there are unlocks you just cant go in this doc because it delays other important stuff (in particular tanks).

But thats a thing for an entire new topic.