The infamous AB HQ squad

[Consti255]

After the recent days and conversations with Markr and other community members about the HQ ive come to an Idea.

It is not a secret many players wish back the old HQ squad for the AB doctrine mine included. The recent HQ is disliked, underused and way to weak compared to the german counterpart.

Why?
1. the 101st the HQ should support as a command unit is way to overpriced for what you get. (you have to put 100+ ammo in it to make it a better equiped rifle sqaud)
2. Its ability to call in units via paradrop is cool, but the buildable HQ can do the same for 4 CP and do have additional buffs and a triple strafe call in.
3. 400 MP and 6 CP ( holy moly) is way to expensive in such a MP draining doc.
4. Their loadout just blows compared to the LEER squad.
5. The abilitys overall arent good enough to justify the high MP and CP cost and get only good after they reach vet 3. (which is basicly impossible)

What does AB right now?
AB is recently undenieable a plane heavy doc mixed in with AT guns and shermans/Hellcats. Most people dont even bother to go further than the 101st unlock unless the game goes into super late game.
The goal is to make AB doc a more infantry oriented doc (what it supposed to be) and also viable.

What should be changed?
Strafes in the game should be looked at. They are way to devastating vs infantry and guarantee way too often a full wipe of infantry squad.
Hawks brought up a good solution. Infantry in grenn cover or buildings should get less damage theirfor they get supressed for a long time.
Strafes will still be devastating vs inf in red cover and HT standing arround. This goes for the AB strafe and Axis one.

Now to the beloved HQ squad.
I came up with 2 different approches with it.
1.
Price: 500MP
The HQ squad comes in with thompsons and having the option to go anti Inf heavy or Infiltrator kit. Same like the SAS (which was honestly one of the coolest change since patches imo). Anti Inf: 2 Browing 1 sniper 3 Garands, Infiltrator Kit : crawling, 6 Thompsons and the ability to set charges, mines and boobytraps. Limited to 1 at a time.
Why no AT capabilitys? AB already got the 82., 101st and dropable 76 guns.
For the loss of the aura you swap out the Ranger Captain for an AB captain at the baracks. 1 Thompson 2 M1A1. Abilitys are roughly the same instead of loosing the the ability to call in units which just go exclusively for the buildable HQ.
2.
Price 250-300MP
Leave them as they are but swap out the ability to drop down a sniper and change it with the ability to call down the Squad ive presented in number 1.
The name of the squad could be 506th Infantry Regiment ( the guys out of the series Band of Brothers) could be fitting.
The initial price of the HQ squad goes down significant to justify the price of the called in 506th regiment for 400MP.

[Warhawks97]

I think the aura should stay because thats afterall the main job of this squad. Otherwise it becomes kind of another AB inf squad aside 82nd and 101st.
Also a special AB captain from the barracks will be difficult to deploy behind enemie lines.

I agree that each US doc should get a different captain with different abilties and so on (i already made a topic about it a long time ago). But that should not remove auras from other doctrinal command units.


A lot of issues come just down to MP and CP cost as well as overall poor performance. 6 CP for an command squad + the fact that you got to spend 2 CP for the mandatory M10 sucks. Most Luft players for example get the reg 5, Puma with 75 mm pak 40 and lehr squad. So for a low ammount of CP they do get a lot of bang.

[Consti255]

Yeah sure.
But did you ever saw anyone useing 2 command sqaud at once?
Its defnitly not necessary at all as it is right now in the game that you are able to get 2 command squads because NOONE will ever get both.
For what do you need the ranger captain as AB or the offizier as Luft ? Total waste.

[Warhawks97]

A standard officer affects standard inf as far as i know, while those special units with special command units get only affected by the special officer squad. idk if its true for luft doc as well.

But so far storms and AB get only affected by their own command units. Rangers dont have such special command unit.


In BK doc i do use both officer so that all my units have a forward retreat. And both are quite affordable. In BK doc it just makes sense to get an officer squad early while getting the storm HT and command squad later on.

[Consti255]

A standard officer affects standard inf as far as i know, while those special units with special command units get only affected by the special officer squad. idk if its true for luft doc as well.

But so far storms and AB get only affected by their own command units. Rangers dont have such special command unit.


In BK doc i do use both officer so that all my units have a forward retreat. And both are quite affordable. In BK doc it just makes sense to get an officer squad early while getting the storm HT and command squad later on.

Yeah that is right. But still. Noone ever goes for his officier as Luft when you can get the LEER Squad because FsR6 and gebirgs are your infantry.
Noone gets an extra support unit for your leftover Volks when they survived.
Thats why 2 support units are just BS in my book.

[Warhawks97]

A standard officer affects standard inf as far as i know, while those special units with special command units get only affected by the special officer squad. idk if its true for luft doc as well.

But so far storms and AB get only affected by their own command units. Rangers dont have such special command unit.


In BK doc i do use both officer so that all my units have a forward retreat. And both are quite affordable. In BK doc it just makes sense to get an officer squad early while getting the storm HT and command squad later on.

Yeah that is right. But still. Noone ever goes for his officier as Luft when you can get the LEER Squad because FsR6 and gebirgs are your infantry.
Noone gets an extra support unit for your leftover Volks when they survived.
Thats why 2 support units are just BS in my book.

so still, how to get the ranger captain behind enemie lines when the HQ squad is no longer a support unit with aura buffs?
And would the HQ squad even an "HQ" squad? Or just another combat squad like SAS which is also a combat squad next to marines and commandos?


I am just trying to figure out how it would look like at the end when the AB inf is kind of like basic ranger need the basic officer squad.

[MEFISTO]

After the recent days and conversations with Markr and other community members about the HQ ive come to an Idea.

It is not a secret many players wish back the old HQ squad for the AB doctrine mine included. The recent HQ is disliked, underused and way to weak compared to the german counterpart.

Why?
1. the 101st the HQ should support as a command unit is way to overpriced for what you get. (you have to put 100+ ammo in it to make it a better equiped rifle sqaud)
2. Its ability to call in units via paradrop is cool, but the buildable HQ can do the same for 4 CP and do have additional buffs and a triple strafe call in.
3. 400 MP and 6 CP ( holy moly) is way to expensive in such a MP draining doc.
4. Their loadout just blows compared to the LEER squad.
5. The abilitys overall arent good enough to justify the high MP and CP cost and get only good after they reach vet 3. (which is basicly impossible)

What does AB right now?
AB is recently undenieable a plane heavy doc mixed in with AT guns and shermans/Hellcats. Most people dont even bother to go further than the 101st unlock unless the game goes into super late game.
The goal is to make AB doc a more infantry oriented doc (what it supposed to be) and also viable.

What should be changed?
Strafes in the game should be looked at. They are way to devastating vs infantry and guarantee way too often a full wipe of infantry squad.
Hawks brought up a good solution. Infantry in grenn cover or buildings should get less damage theirfor they get supressed for a long time.
Strafes will still be devastating vs inf in red cover and HT standing arround. This goes for the AB strafe and Axis one.

Now to the beloved HQ squad.
I came up with 2 different approches with it.
1.
Price: 500MP
The HQ squad comes in with thompsons and having the option to go anti Inf heavy or Infiltrator kit. Same like the SAS (which was honestly one of the coolest change since patches imo). Anti Inf: 2 Browing 1 sniper 3 Garands, Infiltrator Kit : crawling, 6 Thompsons and the ability to set charges, mines and boobytraps. Limited to 1 at a time.
Why no AT capabilitys? AB already got the 82., 101st and dropable 76 guns.
For the loss of the aura you swap out the Ranger Captain for an AB captain at the baracks. 1 Thompson 2 M1A1. Abilitys are roughly the same instead of loosing the the ability to call in units which just go exclusively for the buildable HQ.
2.
Price 250-300MP
Leave them as they are but swap out the ability to drop down a sniper and change it with the ability to call down the Squad ive presented in number 1.
The name of the squad could be 506th Infantry Regiment ( the guys out of the series Band of Brothers) could be fitting.
The initial price of the HQ squad goes down significant to justify the price of the called in 506th regiment for 400MP.

+1 I like the idea, the only thing I am a bit not sure is about to give them another sniper, 3 snipers is a bit broken, may be we can use CW system ( pay 25 per sniper shot and have a cool down), that shouldn’t make them broken.

[MarKr]

I really feel like this is going in circles.

Straffe is too strong -> nerf Straffe -> now we need to buff AB infantry to easily kill enemy higher-tier infantry -> turn the HQ squad into a rambo/hero unit that will melt enemies -> Devs: no rambo/hero units -> players: OMG!!!! why?!?!?!? btw: Straffes are too strong!

Our point of view on this is still the same - no Rambo/Hero units. Therefore a squad with "2 Browing 1 sniper 3 Garands" is a non-negotiable no-go. "Infiltrator kit" makes no sense for HQ squad as it is a command unit and so having them crawling somewhere where they cannot buff the infantry around with their aura makes no sense.
You say they could lose the aura and move the command function to the captain in the barracks. This means that the HQ squad is no longer an HQ squad but some sneaky demo squad which is a unit that Commandos/Rangers already have and this sneaky playstyle is not intended for AB doc (which is also the reason why we were so reluctant to give even passive camo to 82nd squads). The intented playstyle/intention for AB doc is that they can keep their presence in the field because they don't have to retreat that often because you can reinforce them on the go. That's also why they have paradrop commander - the unit can also stay near the fighting infantry longer and reinforce any losses without the need to retreat (which is something that normal Captain cannot do).

And the often used comparison to Luft is also off. Luft and AB are not mirror doctrines. Luft has paratrooper infantry, true, but their playstyle is different from AB, focused on fewer units of higher quality - thus they have the more combat-capable command squad but they also have Panthers for tank combat, 88s for defense purposes and what not. You cannot take one aspect of a doctrine, compare it to one aspect of another doctrine and demand them to be more similar without looking at the rest of what the doctrines have. AB has no Panther or Pershing/Jacksons so they need to rely more on other ways of dealing with tanks - thus they have the Recoilless rifles (currently the best crit-inflicting infantry-AT in the game) that have a very good chance to immobilize anything, even late game units such as Kingtigers, Jagdtigers and so on. They have high immobilization chances but low damage against the late-game unists so when they immobilize them they need to be finished off with planes, zookas or Hellcats or whatever you have. Yes, it is a different system than Luft, more micro-intensive than Luft but if you have that level of micro, it can work fine. The rambo squad you're asking for will also make a lot of other things in the unlock tree obsolete - the MG team will be pointless as its role is to help fight infantry. If you get a squad with two LMGs and a sniper, you won't need any MG squad. The usefulness of 101st will go down, 82nd too (especially if you want a 3-men "command squad" with two zookas?). Not to mention that such a squad would have to cost a crapload of MP - even more than the original HQ squad and they can still die a single arty shot and people will complain again that their super-expensive infantry gets killed so easily (we've seen this in the past with Fallshirms and Gebirgs).

Yeah sure.
But did you ever saw anyone useing 2 command sqaud at once?
Its defnitly not necessary at all as it is right now in the game that you are able to get 2 command squads because NOONE will ever get both.
For what do you need the ranger captain as AB or the offizier as Luft ? Total waste.
(...)
Yeah that is right. But still. Noone ever goes for his officier as Luft when you can get the LEER Squad because FsR6 and gebirgs are your infantry.
Noone gets an extra support unit for your leftover Volks when they survived.
Thats why 2 support units are just BS in my book.

There is probably no reason to build both in every game. But what if you want a retreat point for your non-doctrinal units as Hawks said? What if you want to use the commander early on before you get your doctrinal infantry? What if you play BK doc and want to speed up unit production in your base? What if you play Luft but still want to get the SS squad? Does anyone force you to build both the squads every time? No. Does it hurt anything if both commander squads are available? No. If you feel you don't need the squad, don't build it. If we follow this logic, we should remove every unit any time when anyone says "I don't know anyone who uses this/that unit."

[Consti255]

I really feel like this is going in circles.

Straffe is too strong -> nerf Straffe -> now we need to buff AB infantry to easily kill enemy higher-tier infantry -> turn the HQ squad into a rambo/hero unit that will melt enemies -> Devs: no rambo/hero units -> players: OMG!!!! why?!?!?!? btw: Straffes are too strong!

I see it like this. Strafes are just a basicly no brainer to wipe out Vet3 or even higher sqauds that are even in buildings and green cover.
If you compare it to your "Rambo" unit which i dont think it will be a Rambo unit btw. that you still need a fair amount of micro, gameknowlegde and makro of the game to make them work. AB just rely so heavy on planes that spamming AA is basicly the death to every AB doc player.
So yeah, i support stronger units to operate with in general. There is a reason so much players love the SS squad. The Sniper issue is just so seriously rare that someone builds up a sniper AT gun that i didnt encounterd one player doing it in 400+ games.

Our point of view on this is still the same - no Rambo/Hero units. Therefore a squad with "2 Browing 1 sniper 3 Garands" is a non-negotiable no-go. "Infiltrator kit" makes no sense for HQ squad as it is a command unit and so having them crawling somewhere where they cannot buff the infantry around with their aura makes no sense.

Thats why i wanna stress out my second attempt. You dont loose your beloved command HQ sqaud but still get a more capable inf squad for the money and CPs you put in them to compansate the strafe tweak.

And the often used comparison to Luft is also off. Luft and AB are not mirror doctrines. Luft has paratrooper infantry, true, but their playstyle is different from AB, focused on fewer units of higher quality - thus they have the more combat-capable command squad but they also have Panthers for tank combat, 88s for defense purposes and what not. You cannot take one aspect of a doctrine, compare it to one aspect of another doctrine and demand them to be more similar without looking at the rest of what the doctrines have. AB has no Panther or Pershing/Jacksons so they need to rely more on other ways of dealing with tanks - thus they have the Recoilless rifles (currently the best crit-inflicting infantry-AT in the game) that have a very good chance to immobilize anything, even late game units such as Kingtigers, Jagdtigers and so on. They have high immobilization chances but low damage against the late-game unists so when they immobilize them they need to be finished off with planes, zookas or Hellcats or whatever you have. Yes, it is a different system than Luft, more micro-intensive than Luft but if you have that level of micro, it can work fine.

Well it is the german counterpart with many "same" things. Inf you can reinforce on the go. Strafes acting pretty much the same. A paradroped command unit. Dropable equiptment. dropable AT guns/88s.
In my eyes you can compare them.
I like the idea of the recoiless how they behave right now and i think it was a great change but this makes AB rely even more on planes to finish big cats off.

The rambo squad you're asking for will also make a lot of other things in the unlock tree obsolete - the MG team will be pointless as its role is to help fight infantry. If you get a squad with two LMGs and a sniper, you won't need any MG squad. The usefulness of 101st will go down, 82nd too

Are you really comparing this both unlocks ? The mg costs 1 CP and the HQ sqaud 6CP.....
not to mentioned that you even get a dropable mortar for the unlock aswell.
That would be the same if you say the P4 F2 gets obsolete because you can unlock the Panther D2 later.

(especially if you want a 3-men "command squad" with two zookas?).

i never asked for this?

Not to mention that such a squad would have to cost a crapload of MP - even more than the original HQ squad and they can still die a single arty shot and people will complain again that their super-expensive infantry gets killed so easily (we've seen this in the past with Fallshirms and Gebirgs).

Not true. If you go for my second suggestion you get your 506th for 650 or 700 MP. And still got your HQ sqaud for auras.

There is probably no reason to build both in every game. But what if you want a retreat point for your non-doctrinal units as Hawks said? What if you want to use the commander early on before you get your doctrinal infantry? What if you play BK doc and want to speed up unit production in your base? What if you play Luft but still want to get the SS squad? Does anyone force you to build both the squads every time? No. Does it hurt anything if both commander squads are available? No. If you feel you don't need the squad, don't build it. If we follow this logic, we should remove every unit any time when anyone says "I don't know anyone who uses this/that unit."

This is just a suggestion to improve the units or overall feel of the doc.
If you watch games normally noone ever gets a ranger captain when playing AB which is not denieable. Because it is senseless.
Noone would ever build a retreat point for his regular inf because AB normally got the roles filled. 101st = rifles, 82. = AT/Ranger sqaud, HQ = command, AB Engges =Engees and so on.
Noone wants a command unit that goes so fast obsolete because there will be no units to buff or any unit useing the retreat point.

I mean you are right noone gets hurt when this units are in the game in this particular doc but do they add something necessary ? No.
So yeah i think at them can be worked.

[Warhawks97]

I dont really see the point for having a 6 CP inf unit that can get 2 lmgs, 3 Garands and a sniper. Even when for 6 CP, its going to cost billions and makes all enemie inf quite obsolete. So people will just throw a lot of arty against it resulting in "omg my 600 MP inf squad died just like that." We went through it over years. Highly deadly single unit armies are a pain in the ass to balance bc they are either OP OP or useless, depending on whom you ask.

Even when the original one stays as HQ squad at low cost that then only calls in a 700 MP squad, its either again that this squad goes solo vs masses of enemie inf or gets whiped by a cheap sherman. I see the SS squad often with quite a lot of kills but in the long run its impact isnt that great since it appears once in a while, kills a ton of single soldiers with its double LMG/sniper combo and retreats. And at some point gets whiped by whatever lucky enemie and the entire enemie resistance basically collapses. Thats the case with many many high cost elite units actually.



Also, that "weapon package" thinking could be applied to the 82nd as well. We could give them the ability to get two lmgs and garands. Or an anti tank package. So at the end we would have kind of 3 of the same squad that are different in as the just go up in cost and have better weapons. At the end why would we need it? I could go with (assuming we drop 101st squad to 300 MP) x2 101st squads with lots of garands and lmg type weapons as well to get the same effect that one squad with 700 MP squad with tons of super deadly anti inf weapons get. Just that i can replace a loss much easier and quicker as to wait again for 700 MP reserves to be build up.



Usually, the limit i am willing to pay for an individual inf unit is 400. And thats the case for idk how long i play inf focused docs. Everything above 400 MP is stuff i barely get. Thats why i use barely the SS squad or 82nd or suppression storm squad. Even though i did manage to get some incredible kill stats with ss and suppression squad, its like that my only life insurance is put in a few men. They can literally repell wave after wave of enemie inf, but when i want to actually attack, i dont come so far because i run into enemie mgs or well placed enemie infantry. So having such expensive units with crazy K/D´s just give you nice points towards the end of the game where you can say "look my K/D, i played better than you!" But tactically you just lost the game and didnt achieve much. The kills just barely translate into a tactical benefit in the long run. And once its completely whiped, you lost a ton of MP but also all your exp. I rather have like three vet 2 and 3 units than to have one vet 5 unit.



So i would focus on evolving a playstyle arround AB doc that is focusing on 101st+HQ squad with the 82nd being its elite branch. And since BK doc is doing pretty well with 360 MP inf unit, 400 MP command unit which all cost not more than 4 CP, i am quite confident that getting the 101st as low as 300 MP while keeping the HQ at max 400 MP and only 4 CP instead of 6, things would generally improve.

And even though strafes should perhaps not insta whipe a vet 5 squad inside a house, it should remain a vital tool for the doc with good effect on inf in non or negative cover as well as against vehicles and adding decent suppression to enemie forces.

[Consti255]

I dont really see the point for having a 6 CP inf unit that can get 2 lmgs, 3 Garands and a sniper. Even when for 6 CP, its going to cost billions and makes all enemie inf quite obsolete. So people will just throw a lot of arty against it resulting in "omg my 600 MP inf squad died just like that." We went through it over years. Highly deadly single unit armies are a pain in the ass to balance bc they are either OP OP or useless, depending on whom you ask.

You mean like the SS ? Where noone bitches arround them beeing OP ? They can basicly even have better loadouts with 2 MG42 and STGS + a sniper.

So i would focus on evolving a playstyle arround AB doc that is focusing on 101st+HQ squad with the 82nd being its elite branch. And since BK doc is doing pretty well with 360 MP inf unit, 400 MP command unit which all cost not more than 4 CP, i am quite confident that getting the 101st as low as 300 MP while keeping the HQ at max 400 MP and only 4 CP instead of 6, things would generally improve.

For the lord of god no. Not a Prop and Inf doc 2.0 aswell for the air force. If you want cheaper Inf going alonside command units you should play Inf doc or prop doc. Air should be balanced more arround more worthy units like the 82. or in particular my suggested HQ sqaud. Balanceing another doc arround early units with command units is just a straight no from my side. A big no.
101st should be at arround 300MP but then be limited to a max of 2-3 units.

As far as packages go yeah i can see that. One Inf package and an AT one with 2 zooks and one RL.
Also it moves away this anyoing uppicking from droped weapons where you have to zoom in to click on the weapon.
Yes from me.

[Warhawks97]

You mean like the SS ? Where noone bitches arround them beeing OP ? They can basicly even have better loadouts with 2 MG42 and STGS + a sniper.

SS squad alone is squishy afterall. Vehicles and esspecially a sherman makes a short job. Hauptsturm and SS costs over 800 MP in total. And when you make them full anti inf or perhaps just one schreck, any sherman kills them. Overall facing PE is a lot harder when PE players get a bunch of cheap grens backed by doctrinal stuff like Panzer IV´s or hetzers. As i said, SS can pack up a punch recking kills over time, but its not as dangerous as facing an aggressive PE player with lots of inf and good positioning of support stuff and vehicles that put pressure on you non-stop. I am actually quite glad when my opponent goes Haupt and SS squad right away. There might be one or two support assets but it takes one light arty barrage or followed by by cheap inf+ tank to get over it and make his entire army crumble.

For the lord of god no. Not a Prop and Inf doc 2.0 aswell for the air force. If you want cheaper Inf going alonside command units you should play Inf doc or prop doc. Air should be balanced more arround more worthy units like the 82. or in particular my suggested HQ sqaud. Balanceing another doc arround early units with command units is just a straight no from my side. A big no.
101st should be at arround 300MP but then be limited to a max of 2-3 units.

So AB is going to become what luft used to be? Only like 3 squads costing tons but in return rambo? Luft had been played in every game and when you put an inf squad at 500+ MP, it just has to be some sort of extremly sturdy immortal like squad (SS btw just isnt) because you cant afford support assets at all.


Another reason why its BS to try to place a US doc arround a handfull unit is the fact that the supply yard becomes nuts. You need it to be upgraded a bit because US counterpart units to always cost a bit more upkeep than other factions units. But you dont really get an advantage from it because you get most of it when your army is generally larger. But that wont be possible when you always have to wait to have 600+ MP in reserve anyways to field just one more unit. And that was one advantage AB did have over other air docs in the long run. They had cheaper 101st (back in times when commandos and fallis were like 500 MP and more) and could field a lot of it without hurting income. In the late game that MP excess reserves could be used for AT gun drops, emplacments and snipers or supply drop.


AB doc actually lost its big advantage: Cheaper and more numerous. Luft dropped to 400 MP for all its units and unit cap got increased.

Basically what you suggest is turning the doc upsite down. Besides that, AB used to be super expensive as well with 101st once being at 450 MP and 82nd at 550. In 2014, when Wolf took over the mod (or bit earlier even), one of the first balance changes (aside fixing bugs) was to drop AB in cost significantly. First then it actually became playbale.

We can increase the cost of AB but it will again struggle as it did unless you make them a lot more stronger so that they will be the most badass inf in the game and worth its cost. But that will trigger a lot of complains on axis side since these AB squads have to rely a lot more on their "ramboness" taking all enemies by their own with just little support.

And i dont consider 400 MP as "cheap". I am not really good with using "only cheap units" such as Volkssturm. But anything that goes beyond is just again "too many eggs in a basket". In the long run, even when placing them at 700 MP, a cheap PZ III and some basic inf with lmg will counter them (esspecially with officer nearby). What is that 700 MP squad going to do about it unless its stats got boosted to the moon.

[Consti255]

And so does a requested HQ sqaud? They shouldt be straight up juggernauts. And no noone said turning AB into the old Luft.
It isnt even possible because of the loadouts.
STGs,G43 and FGs are in general better weapons.
Unless we dont tweak weapons or boost theHP of the "new troop" in the sky there will nothing change. And no juggernauts will appear.
I just dislike the idea in general to turn AB arround into a Cheap 101st + HQ combi. We already have 2 docs themed arround that kind if playstyle so again big no.
101st should stay as they are but just drop in price and there for they dont get out of hand they should be limited.

As a whole standpoint. AB were the most elite units from the US in the 2.WW. Historie aside but it would be the same when your KT performa like a standard P3/4. Thats just not the case and because of that we already have a Inf doc on the US side filling that role.

Everything you sad can be the same for the requested HQ troop? HE etc. Thats not a valid argument in my eyes. I just see the SS as expensive unit which is just 0 CP. So you need to pay more instead of putting CP into them.
I love the SS its just how the old HQ very unique and awesome to play with. It also feels fair playing against.

I am gonna summerise the whole things we acchived with the conversation and list it so it gets better organised.