Several issues with AB and RAF docs

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

After the latest patch I have been playing allied air docs extensively and there are still problems that need to be addressed in my opinion.

1) New RAF unlock that reduced the airplane call-ins cool down time is useless and contributes nothing to the doctrine. On most of the maps it’s barely possible to use Rocket strike after every default CD time, because there is simply not enough ammo, given that you play with commando proactively using smoke and etc.

So you spend 2 CP for nothing, the cool down time doesn’t matter when the use of ability is mainly limited by the cost.

It especially hurts due the absence Firefly. Which was the only vehicle that could handle German mediums front to front more or less reliably.

I think this ability should go to AB doc, where it will have a synergy with ammo drop. Firefly should be returned to RAF.

2) I still cannot accept how miserable is 101s squad, Pioniers with Mp40 can literally sprint and wipe them out. Luft paratroopers are able to parachute right on their heads and kill them all. If your concept was to make them sort of Airdrop rifles they should cost like rifles. I wouldn’t pay more than 300 MP for a squad that needs another 100 ammo to start actually causing damage, dies like flies and has a joke recoiless rifle. Even if they have 2 AT a scout car still has a decent chance to drive right into them and kill the entire squad.

3) HQ team should become a potent 6 men squad with good firepower. Since paratroopers are so squishy their officer unit should be capable of fighting along them causing decent damage and survive as long as possible. Current attempts to pull off rushes with paratroopers is just so miserable, volks kill half of the 101s squad with a single mg34 burst, HQ team gets killed by a random arty/mortar shell or forced to retreat after a single sniper shot - here is your rush.

4) Rocket strike unlock should be swapped with bomb run for AB. It’s just too far away for single offensive ability the doctrine has against heavy tanks.

[Consti255]

Agreed on the 101st and HQ squad.
Buf if you are willing to change the HQ squad to 6 men there will be Luft players insist on a LEER Battalion change. (which i´d be cool with but not the Devs.)

Hard no for the CD swap. Since the SAS changes i dont need that much ammo on other things and i think the CD fits the theme just right. I think RAF is awesome now. SAS AT squad normally shits on every medium they face with their 2 zooks and piat and the capability to break supression with smokes.
The Achillies is enough for RAF imo.

Just imagine lower CD on strafes with unlimited ammo swaps. Jesus thats god awful balance.

[Warhawks97]

1. yeah, i suggested such an ability for AB due to the fact they rely more on them. Instead RAF got it now and lost a valuable unit in return. Weird.
I still think fuel cost on airstrikes would be cool like luft has it. Devs told me luft can make them cost fuel but in return hampering their tank production. But it doesnt hamper my tank production there at all. It only makes it a lot easier to call in airstrikes.

But yeah, anyways, i agree.

2. true. Volks with lmg can shred a lot of stuff. I often try to get like 2 or 3 squads, They shred not only 101st . But the 101st is by far the easiest enemie for Volksssquads. I agree for a drastic cost drop.

4. It should be seperated after the strafe or even recon flight.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Agreed on the 101st and HQ squad.
Buf if you are willing to change the HQ squad to 6 men there will be Luft players insist on a LEER Battalion change. (which i´d be cool with but not the Devs.)

Hard no for the CD swap. Since the SAS changes, i don't need that much ammo on other things and i think the CD fits the theme just right. I think RAF is awesome now. SAS AT squad normally shits on every medium they face with their 2 zooks and piat and the capability to break suppression with smokes.
The Achillies is enough for RAF imo.

Just imagine lower CD on strafes with unlimited ammo swaps. Jesus that's god awful balance.

Strafe run needs to be nerfed, no other ability guarantees an insta wipe of any infantry regardless of their vet. level and cover.

This new strafe is of the most bizarre things ever happened to the mod in my opinion. It's even funny to think how this idea came up:

- Alright, 101s are an easy target for any Axis elite inf and vehicles, but some people consider them OP, lets cut down their HP, nerf weapon loadout and also remove flame nades.
-That sounds great, but maybe they will have trouble dealing with volksgrenadiers then....let's tune the strafe run to be able to kill 550 MP SS squads in a blink of an eye.

[Warhawks97]

The german strafe if not much better. It also whipes whats in its path. I whiped a couple of ranger squads and a Halftrack in one go when those where fighting a reg 5.


I think these strafes should remain pretty deadly vs vehicles, while inf in cover would have some chances to survive but being heavily suppressed for quite some time though.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

The german strafe if not much better. It also whipes whats in its path. I whiped a couple of ranger squads and a Halftrack in one go when those where fighting a reg 5.


I think these strafes should remain pretty deadly vs vehicles, while inf in cover would have some chances to survive but being heavily suppressed for quite some time though.

From my experience, Luft strafe pretty often leaves 1 or 2 men at least, whereas Thunderbolt is 100% death zone.

[Consti255]

101st can be tweaked really easy with a cost reduction. But i think what is more of a pain is that the HQ is damn useless imo.
The drops they can provide are meh and i mostly see noone useing them + their loudout is wired aswell.
I would hard press for a change to that unit and make it a more potent fighting squad as it used to be.
Remove the sniper or leave it i dont really care. Just heads on HQ vs Luft LEER ? ill take the Luft squad ANY day over the HQ. i think the support style airdrop officier units are okay but not ideal. I think if one doc in the whole game gets one of that kind Okay but please not both sides.
I think it is way more fitting into Luft in terms of loadouts,abilitys etc. than the HQ squad from AB doc.

Since 82. got his medic ability removed they could get a medic unit, 3 normal rangers,one captain and one zook. Sniper? Maybe i dont care and i really dont get why the HQ was removed and lost their snipers while the SS squad keeps it. I can only see it while playing PS because they have no anti sniper capabilitys but the other docs? Luft gets drained by snipers but you really dont have the MP to maintain FjR5 and a Sturmführer + SS sqaud on the field anyway.

I think we have enough aura providing units in the game which fits their role way better then the Air oriented doc officiers.
They cost a SHIT TON, provide NO momentum and the HQ is objectivly worse than the LEER sqaud.

[MarKr]

The drops they can provide are meh and i mostly see noone useing them + their loudout is wired aswell.

The sniper is meh? People keep saying how snipers are best counters to some elite-level infantry so when you play against that, they can help you level the playing field.
Engineers? Not really the best combat unit but still provide extra firepower and get buffed by the HQ squad aura + they are the only allied unit that has the "Scavenge" ability so they can get you extra ammo and fuel from wrecks.
Medic team that passively heals is meh? You even asked for such a unit later in your post.

Since 82. got his medic ability removed they could get a medic unit

The HQ squad has a Medic and can use the healing ability + the squad can drop a dedicated medic team that heals passively without any need to activate abilities.

3 normal rangers,one captain and one zook.

No to the zook. It is a command squad, not a tank buster squad. "Normal Rangers" are equipped with Garands. 5 men Garand squad will still not make it a super-combat effective unit. Also keep in mind that the aura is not provided by the squad but rather by the commanding soldier. If the soldier dies, the aura stops working until the commander is reinforced back into the squad (works this way for all command squads). Putting the squad into combat means risking you temporarily lose the command bonuses on all surrounding soldiers.

Maybe i dont care and i really dont get why the HQ was removed and lost their snipers while the SS squad keeps it.

SS squad and the HQ squad have only one thing in common - they are infantry. Comparing them and asking why one has something and the other doesn't is like saying "Why KT has such a strong armor when Stuart has a paper armor? They are both tanks."
The sniper in SS squad will most likely be removed too as it creates glitches in some cases and the squad is strong enough even without the sniper.

They cost a SHIT TON, provide NO momentum and the HQ is objectivly worse than the LEER sqaud.

So why not suggest some other change that would improve their intended support role? You could ask for lower cost, stronger aura buffs, some additional abilities or replacement of some abilities you feel are not so useful but instead you ask to turn them into a front-line, ass-kicking, tank-busting hero unit.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

As I said many times, HQ team was amazing before the update. Great support and combat unit that is unique for a very high price.

Idk why are you trying to defend that shame of the doc so much. Literally everyone plays it as Strafe Run + Shermans doctrine as their infantry is completely underwhelming.

[Diablo]

Isn't this the subjective preference of "ultra cost uber units" versus "moderate cost mortal men"?

[Consti255]

Maybe i dont care and i really dont get why the HQ was removed and lost their snipers while the SS squad keeps it.

SS squad and the HQ squad have only one thing in common - they are infantry. Comparing them and asking why one has something and the other doesn't is like saying "Why KT has such a strong armor when Stuart has a paper armor? They are both tanks."
The sniper in SS squad will most likely be removed too as it creates glitches in some cases and the squad is strong enough even without the sniper.

They cost a SHIT TON, provide NO momentum and the HQ is objectivly worse than the LEER sqaud.

So why not suggest some other change that would improve their intended support role? You could ask for lower cost, stronger aura buffs, some additional abilities or replacement of some abilities you feel are not so useful but instead you ask to turn them into a front-line, ass-kicking, tank-busting hero unit.

Well if you compare the old HQ troop (which i meant by the post) with the SS troop they behaved pretty similar. The SS still had/have better weapons but the loudout idea was kinda the same.
It was just a super cool unique unit fitting really well into that role of a HQ AB troop. Right now it should just be called AB captain.
I mean it was just like the SS troop a situational unit which costs a ton but they were the KT or SP of infantry units but still infantry. They still couldve get ambushed or got their ass pounded by arty or HE. If you could afford them they were great (same as the SS), but playing without them was totally viable (as the SS). Keep in mind they were only available in AB not as the SS in every doc.
In terms of sniper. I really dont had any issues with it to be honest. . I had a ton of more bugs or glitches with the section snipe ability and i think the sniper as it is right now in the SS squad works fine.

I mean yeah you are right, but i requested it to be a more potent fighting unit because since you can build a AB headquarter the HQ is seriously obsolete, the only reason is to build them as forward retreating point same as the headquarter where you can drop your units aswell but for 0 CP .--> obsolete. I personal dont think a unit like this (costing 6CP and 400MP) has any impact on the game in that specific doc. This doc is so god dam MP draining that wasting 400MP on a unit that dies like flyies, if you dont baby sit them like crazy isnt worth at all.
And no i dont think it will be get used more often even if it costs like 280/300MP.
Also i think "tank busting" is overreacting. 1. Zooks alone are kinda....meh. They are great vs light vehicles but running at tanks is mostly suicied. 2 When you got such units where every model is defined a loadout you can loose the zook carrier first and loose the whole AT capabilitys of that squad. (same as truck rangers)

Luft lacs the ability to break suppression thats why the LEER unit can get that for up to 3 FrG5 at once. Besides the 3 FGs you get which are alone more worth the HQ + their abilitys. Storm leader have the supression break + even crawling to sneak in off map and even do ambushes on sappers or weaker units. HQ just sucks compared to those units.
And i think that auras are generally better fitting at axis playstyle than allies. (just personal opinion).
Maybe i am gonna make a whole post about the HQ in general, because right now they are underused, disliked by many players and not useful in their role.
The HQ troop should either removed or reworked. When reworked you can change the Ranger captain from the baracks to a AB Ranger captain.

I think overall Sukin is right with most of his post he made. AB right now is just a plane heavy,Shermans and support units intended doc.
I mean it even gets so far that you drop your ATs for the recon squad so they can hide because 101st are so damn squishy. ( i am fine with them but not with the price).

[Diablo]

The devs regularly emphasize that auras are pretty powerful. Maybe players need a more clear indicator for the command buffs. Although nowadays their effects are listed in the abilities description, I think.

I thought about having one or two new or buffed abilities greyed out unless the HQ squad is close. Like how you used to be able to buy Thompsons only in the proximity of the HQ squad.
Possibly having the 82nds self heal available again, but requiring the HQ squad to be close. Of course this kind of clashes with the officers healing capability.. yet you could still use that one for other infantry.
Maybe a boosted stealth option with a few shots from ambush with extra damage? The HQ "plans" an effective ambush setup.

Edit: Same for 101st. Possibly one or two perceived short comings could be remedied through very visible buffs / the availability of abilities when the HQ squad is nearby.

[MarKr]

Well if you compare the old HQ troop (which i meant by the post) with the SS troop they behaved pretty similar. They SS still had/have better weapons but the loudout idea was kinda the same.

And that's where the problem was. SS squad = heavy combat unit. HQ squad = support unit. If they worked in a similar way, it was a design flaw. Really, what other command unit was that strong back in the days (and actually even today)? 6 men with an ability to heal soldiers around, zooka, sniper and providing buffs to units around.

It was just a super cool unique unit fitting really well into that role of a HQ AB troop. Right now i should just be called AB captain.

"Super cool and unique", probably yes. "Fitting the role of HQ AB" - not really. They are called "HQ" but they are a command squad just as any other. I don't know why they were given that weird name... And if the squad with its previous strenght was so super-mega-ultra important to the doctrine just because of its combat capabilities, then it was another design problem.

In terms of sniper. I really dont had any issues with it to be honest.

Often happens that they crew an AT gun and the sniper takes place in the crew, so 2 soldiers operate the gun, the 3rd snipes soldiers at long range too + the SS squad gets reinforced and gets the sniper back.

I mean yeah you are right, but i requested it to be a more potent fighting unit because since you can build a AB headquarter the HQ is seriously obsolete, the only reason is to build them as forward retreating point same as the headquarter where you can drop your units aswell but for 0 CP .--> obsolete.

HQ building is immobile and provides no command bonuses to infantry around. The aura gives:
At Vet0:
Received suppression: -15%
Sight radius: +25%
Accuracy: +12.5%
Damage: +2.5%
At Vet2:
Received experience: +25%
Weapon cooldown time: -10%
Weapon reload time: -10%
At Vet4:
Weapon damage: +15%
Pop cap: +4

Bigger sight radius improves map awareness. Increased accuracy, damage, weapon cooldown and reload times are applied per weapon (not per squad) and so increase the overall "DPS" of the squads around them. The bonuses also apply to each weapon, no matter what weapon it is, so even bazookas become more accurate and deal more damage per hit, reload faster etc., same goes for the AB sniper - more accurate, delays between shots are shorter, reloads faster. Thanks to the XP boost, AB squads around vet up faster (so even more stat bonuses from veterancy. The command radius of other commander squads is "40", the HQ squad has "60".

The "+4" pop cap is pretty pointless as it only plays role in games where you gain more Pop capacity by capturing sectors but BK is played with fixed 250 pop cap. It is a leftover from vCoH so it could be replaced by something else more useful, although 15% damage boost at Vet4 is pretty strong on its own. Talking of which...

I personal dont think a unit like this (costing 6CP and 400MP) has any impact on the game in that specific doc. This doc is so god dam MP draining that wasting 400MP on a unit that dies like flyies, if you dont baby sit them like crazy isnt worth at all.

It could lower the reinforcement costs of squads around the commander at Vet 4.

And no i dont think it will be get used more often even if it costs like 280/300MP.

Maybe not but maybe it is because of what Diablo said - people probably don't know what sort of bonuses they provide (even thought the information has been available for a long time in this topic. Maybe people just expect a rambo squad that will score 60+ kills in every game. If that is so, then they'll be disapointed, I'm afraid.

Also i think "tank busting" is overreacting. 1. Zooks alone are kinda....meh. They are great vs light vehicles but running at tanks is mostly suicied. 2 When you got such units where every model is defined a loadout you can loose the zook carrier first and loose the whole AT capabilitys of that squad. (same as truck rangers)

It isn't overreacting when taking into consideration their intended role described above. Even then - you said yourself that the doctrine is very MP hungry and rushing with this squad (which would have to be made more expensive with a zook and sniper) to take a shot at enemy vehicles is still suicidal because most Axis vehicles are armed with at least MG but usually 20mm cannons or guns with useable HE which will shred the squad in seconds - draining the MP even more either for reinforcing or getting a completely new squad.

I think overall Sukin is right with most of his post he made. AB right now is just a plane heavy,Shermans and support units intended doc.
I mean it even gets so far that you drop your ATs for the recon squad so they can hide because 101st are so damn squishy. ( i am fine with them but not with the price).

Even if I agreed with that statement, is the form of HQ squad you're suggesting going to change that? If the AB doc's "planes and Shermans" changes only by adding a command squad, then the squad will just have to be a rambo unit. I think nobody wants squads that can survive direct hits from 105 arty and 120mm mortars.
What is the problem with dropping AT guns? Especially now with the lates changes? Maybe you don't have the AT power on the paratroopers themselves but when you can get the AT capacity in this way, why is it a problem?

[Mood]

Like I wrote in another post last year, just because some people used the AB HQ squad like Rambo's and took constant losses, they started whining about the high reinforcement cost here which led to the squad being changed.

I loved the old AB squad as many others here.

[Diablo]

In terms of sniper. I really dont had any issues with it to be honest.

Often happens that they crew an AT gun and the sniper takes place in the crew, so 2 soldiers operate the gun, the 3rd snipes soldiers at long range too + the SS squad gets reinforced and gets the sniper back.

I believe this does not happen with upgraded weapons as they are dropped or deleted and crewmen regain their base weapons. If this is correct, a solution could be to make the sniper rifle a weapon upgrade, obviously with a 0% drop chance. Thinking this further, maybe it would become a loadout choice between sniper rifle and MG42 or Panzerschreck, thus creating a drawback to this powerful mechanic.

Edit: And thanks for taking the time and effort to answer thoroughly. It's well appreciated.

[Red]

I am honestly not very familiar with the US Airbourne HQ squad, but to me it is like the allied counterpart to the Luftwaffe's Lehrbatallion. Is that also the intention and are they comparable?
More transparency in terms of buffs an their range in the game would be greatly appreciated, I think.

When it comes to the 101st squads, my suggestion would be to give them a repair ability. It might be that I am missing something, but I can drop mortars, MGs and heavy AT guns behind enemy lines, but I have yet to find someone who can repair those things in Airborne Doc. So this would in my opintion greatly improve the usefulness of the 101st without changing the way they perform in combat.

[MarKr]

When it comes to the 101st squads, my suggestion would be to give them a repair ability. It might be that I am missing something, but I can drop mortars, MGs and heavy AT guns behind enemy lines, but I have yet to find someone who can repair those things in Airborne Doc. So this would in my opintion greatly improve the usefulness of the 101st without changing the way they perform in combat.

HQ squad or the AB "static" HQ can paradrop AB engineers - they can repair, build basic defenses and quad .50cal emplacements, and can also scavenge ammo and fuel from wrecks.

[Consti255]

As i said in my opinion they need a general overhaul as unit or needs to get replaced.
I can see what dicrections you where going desprite the 1v1 changes of certain docs.
I mean you changed the HQ AB into a support only role because of the Luft officier aswell.

But for my personal perspective the reason behind these units is kinda senseless. If you want a support unit you should get the ranger captain or offizier. Prop doc got their own offizier why does AB/Luft have to play 6 or 4 CP for that kinda unit ? Aura units in my opinion are highly debateable.
People often dont go for them because their MP is better invested in an other FjR5 sqaud or 82. instead of buffing one up. Prop docs officier is just so well fitting becuase the cost of Vsturms is just so low and they get buffed to "real" units. AB and Luft on their own dont need that and take the additional firepower anyday over the aura buff.
I think a general removeing of the HQ sqaud and repacement by a more capeable sqaud or maybe a sneaky demolish/infiltrator squad woudlve been more fitting. So when you pick AB as doc you get your ranger captain replaced by an airborne one with slighty changed abilitys.
Still even when the AB headquarter didnt provide auras you can activate buffs and strafes on it which is in general way more usefull than a 81mm mortar or maybe just maaaaaaybe a 105mm barrage when vet 3. The unit drops are aswell available in the HQ.

In general what ive said in my post before is that the auras are fitting gameplay wise waaaaaay better for the axis playstyle. I mean they got a whole doc already which is balanced arround auras and buffs/debuffs and in my opinion this works fine for axis gameplaywise and immersionwise.

i mean i can see what you are saying with the auro buffs but if you just compare the damage buff on Vet 4 (i never saw a vet 4 HQ troop) it is 15% per weapon so i gets 90% up per squad. So even if you manage to somehow get your HQ unit that high vetted the MP is better invested in a second 101st or 82.

And yes i really think if the HQ squad wouldve change,101st gets cheaper and the strafes in the game overall gets tweaked this meta will change.
I like AT guns getting droped by parachute and they are fitting brilliant, but right now people just ignore the 82. as a whole unit and get them only in the super late game. i cant remember when i saw a HQ the last time.
I think you guys nailed Luft as a doc. You get units that scale super good in the late game and are worth putting money on. For some inf attacks to break supression, additional 3 FGs firepower and auras you can get the LEER sqaud.

[Consti255]

I am honestly not very familiar with the US Airbourne HQ squad, but to me it is like the allied counterpart to the Luftwaffe's Lehrbatallion. Is that also the intention and are they comparable?
More transparency in terms of buffs an their range in the game would be greatly appreciated, I think.

When it comes to the 101st squads, my suggestion would be to give them a repair ability. It might be that I am missing something, but I can drop mortars, MGs and heavy AT guns behind enemy lines, but I have yet to find someone who can repair those things in Airborne Doc. So this would in my opintion greatly improve the usefulness of the 101st without changing the way they perform in combat.

Disagree. They are like rifles with better upgrades. I like the 101st but they just need to be significant cheaper.
As Markr said. you can get AB sappers from the AB HQ.

[Warhawks97]

When 101st drops to like 300 MP or so, and when HQ squad would not require 82nd to be unlocked first, maybe then it becomes a viable start to go for a 101st/HQ combo where you have a couple of 101st combined with HQ squad buffing them. But the cost of squishy 101st and the long time it takes to get to the HQ squad is not really a viable strat when the occassional use of 101st, shermans and strafes backed by a pack howitzer can do so much better.

[Consti255]

I am honestly not very familiar with the US Airbourne HQ squad, but to me it is like the allied counterpart to the Luftwaffe's Lehrbatallion. Is that also the intention and are they comparable?
More transparency in terms of buffs an their range in the game would be greatly appreciated, I think.

When it comes to the 101st squads, my suggestion would be to give them a repair ability. It might be that I am missing something, but I can drop mortars, MGs and heavy AT guns behind enemy lines, but I have yet to find someone who can repair those things in Airborne Doc. So this would in my opintion greatly improve the usefulness of the 101st without changing the way they perform in combat.

Good Idea actually.

Like I wrote in another post last year, just because some people used the AB HQ squad like Rambo's and took constant losses, they started whining about the high reinforcement cost here which led to the squad being changed.

I loved the old AB squad as many others here.

yes

[Red]

Thanks for the elaboration on the Airborne pioneers, I was unaware of them!