Churchill MKVII - What do we do about it?

[Walderschmidt]

It either should get its armor reduced or make its cooldown to switch between HE and AP increased back to 90 seconds.

It can walk up to my 88s without fear. It can walk up to my Tigers without fear.

It's just too good. Or too cheap.

I don't know.

Wald

[Consti255]

I really dont want to let go of its armor. Its the first Time axis struggels vs a certain tank with tools and you need to coordinate to kill it.
I just think it comes to early that certain docs arent able to counter it properly.
Blitz for example struggels like CRAZY even when fully CPed.
But if you let it come too late, JPs,KTs,Nashorns etc. just eat it.

I like the armor but Panthers should get a better Pen with AP shots, especially when they now come later and are more costly.
Maybe make the goliaths harder too hit from tanks or give it a crawl ability where it moves super slow but camoed all the time + a delay when you want to detonate it in camo mode.

[Warhawks97]

Its good to have an allied tank with armor. But the thing is that the chance for a Panther gun to pen this tank with normal AP is max only arround 25-26%. But thats only when touching the tank basically. Thats equals the chance of a 76 sherman to pen a Panther G from point blank. At max range a Panther has 18-19% pen with basic AP, rougjly 25% with special AP. A 76 sherman has a 22-23% pen chance vs Panther G frontally with special AP.

On top of that the churchill has 1200 HP, later after upgrade 1300 HP. The King Tiger late model has 1250 HP just to give you an idea. The churchill also can go into hull down later on, which further boosts its armor.

So, technically that thing is a King Tiger for half the fuel cost. Its gun does not have much AP power, but still takes out medium Tanks simply because it can fire as long as necessary to pen those.

A 90 mm currently penetrates a King Tiger easier as a Panther or Tiger pens the churchill.



The current pvp situation is: Wait for the RE player to get churchill MK VII. Then follow this tank with inf and shermans when it breaches one part of the german defense. From then onward its basically GG, even when that thing drives in ass first. A Panther has at least show its front towards the enemie.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I would keep its armor as it is and increase its price from 700/90 to 950/130 or something.
I would also make 95mm Churchills a bit more expensive since their dealt damage is too high.

[Warhawks97]

I would keep its armor as it is and increase its price from 700/90 to 950/130 or something.
I would also make 95mm Churchills a bit more expensive since their dealt damage is too high.

when i began with BK like all tanks cost a ton in MP and fuel. It was 550/100 for tank IV H, 1000/180 for tiger, 1000/200 for Jagdpanther and so on.


I see a spiral coming again where all tanks become some sort of super units and insane cost. But that essentially kills tactical combined warefare.
Games will be decided even more by the RNG factor of artillery shells and anti tank weapons causing a crit damage on them.

I also dislike how we made the Panther even more expensive to an extend that is almost absurd.

I mean recently i did talk about tanks and that some of them could cost a bit more fuel. I would be ok with the MK VII being at 110 or 120 fuel. But the MP cost increase is just a no.
And any tank going ass first against the heaviest anti tank guns is bullshit, even for MK VII or KT.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I would keep its armor as it is and increase its price from 700/90 to 950/130 or something.
I would also make 95mm Churchills a bit more expensive since their dealt damage is too high.

when i began with BK like all tanks cost a ton in MP and fuel. It was 550/100 for tank IV H, 1000/180 for tiger, 1000/200 for Jagdpanther and so on.


I see a spiral coming again where all tanks become some sort of super units and insane cost. But that essentially kills tactical combined warefare.
Games will be decided even more by the RNG factor of artillery shells and anti tank weapons causing a crit damage on them.

I also dislike how we made the Panther even more expensive to an extend that is almost absurd.

I mean recently i did talk about tanks and that some of them could cost a bit more fuel. I would be ok with the MK VII being at 110 or 120 fuel. But the MP cost increase is just a no.
And any tank going ass first against the heaviest anti tank guns is bullshit, even for MK VII or KT.

Panthers are fine as they are.

Regarding the MK7, the tank is clearly very cheap.. it's a heavily armored tank that comes only at 700/90 & 5 CP which is extremely cheap compared to other heavy tanks in the game. Even at these high prices, we can still see heavy tanks being spammed in 3v3 games. Though, not saying heavy tanks should be super strong and very expensive as they used to be, but the MK7 price in particular is just very low.

It's a slow tank, thus.. reducing its armor would hurt its role so bad. Therefore i suggest to increase its price both in terms of MP & fuel, doesn't have to be exactly 950 MP as it could be 800/140 or 700/150 etc.

And even then, it would be still cheap at 5 CP in my opinion.

[Warhawks97]

I would keep its armor as it is and increase its price from 700/90 to 950/130 or something.
I would also make 95mm Churchills a bit more expensive since their dealt damage is too high.

when i began with BK like all tanks cost a ton in MP and fuel. It was 550/100 for tank IV H, 1000/180 for tiger, 1000/200 for Jagdpanther and so on.


I see a spiral coming again where all tanks become some sort of super units and insane cost. But that essentially kills tactical combined warefare.
Games will be decided even more by the RNG factor of artillery shells and anti tank weapons causing a crit damage on them.

I also dislike how we made the Panther even more expensive to an extend that is almost absurd.

I mean recently i did talk about tanks and that some of them could cost a bit more fuel. I would be ok with the MK VII being at 110 or 120 fuel. But the MP cost increase is just a no.
And any tank going ass first against the heaviest anti tank guns is bullshit, even for MK VII or KT.

Panthers are fine as they are.

Regarding the MK7, the tank is clearly very cheap.. it's a heavily armored tank that comes only at 700/90 & 5 CP which is extremely cheap compared to other heavy tanks in the game. Even at these high prices, we can still see heavy tanks being spammed in 3v3 games. Though, not saying heavy tanks should be super strong and very expensive as they used to be, but the MK7 price in particular is just very low.

It's a slow tank, thus.. reducing its armor would hurt its role so bad. Therefore i suggest to increase its price both in terms of MP & fuel, doesn't have to be exactly 950 MP as it could be 800/140 or 700/150 etc.

And even then, it would be still cheap at 5 CP in my opinion.

lets just face it, the armor of some tanks are plain broken. Going ass in first into heavy AT fire should not translate in a "make it more expensive" but rather in a fix.


Like everytime a tank is crazy effective, we just increase cost. We are going to enter a spiral of ever increasing cost of individual units which become "one unit armies". Thats the nightmare of every strategy based game because all it ends up finally is everybody going to rush this single unit over and over because Unit Cost>Brain.


And i dont see how this tank would become super ineffective just because a Panther has the chance to pen it roughly equal to the chance a 76 sherman can pen a Panther. This tank should tank enemie fire, but not staying under fire for minutes from some of the most powerfull anti tank guns. Basically only the Pak 43 offers an effective solution but it comes late and costs usually a lot as well.

[MarKr]

One thing that comes immediately to mind is that the MK VII can bounce off shots very effectively but at the same it cannot really deal much damage to other tanks either. So if Panther has frontally at max range chance of about 18-19% (25% with AP active), Churchill has a chance to pen Panther at max range of about 4%. So even if it takes more shots to penetrate it, it's not like Axis heavy tanks which have strong armor and devastating guns too.

Churchills also move at the speed of dirt, Panthers are much faster (actually almost any tank is faster than the Churchill). Have you tried shooting it from sides/rear? You get to 75% pen at max range with Panther if you hit the rear half of the tank. Even PIV gets to 25% at max range when hitting the rear. Do you have any replay where you tried to attack it with more tanks, trying to flank it, rather than just shooting everything from the front?

The churchill will most likely not be alone, supported by Firefly, Comet or other tanks but those are again squishy against Panthers so you can target those first and then go for the Churchill (as the Churchill with its 4% pen chance won't do much to you), also if opponent has more tanks, you shouldn't have just one either. I'm sure there will be lots of "well, that's nice but....." replies but can anyone show me some replay where the churchill was attacked with more than one tank and it still posed a serious problem to deal with?

And before anyone starts taking this as "MarKr opposes any Allied nerfs" - I'm not against it - we said that the Mk VII is out for testing and balancing in costs or performance was expected. I just want to make sure that the nerfs are applied because of necessity, not because of "my Panther cannot easily destroy Mk VII and I don't like it".

EDIT:
Btw, Panzerfausts will get their damage vs Mk VII upped to 400-500 from the current 160-200. So take that into consideration when suggesting changes.

[Krieger Blitzer]

EDIT:
Btw, Panzerfausts will get their damage vs Mk VII upped to 400-500 from the current 160-200. So take that into consideration when suggesting changes.

Good, THAT + hidden Goliath + mines + Shreck + rocket ability by 37mm HT, should be all enough.
Player doesn't always need Henschels or Pak43 to counter Churchills.

However, in addition to that; i would also just increase the fuel cost (keep MP cost as it is) so it could be 120 fuel instead of just 90 fuel.

[Warhawks97]

@markr: we attacked rear and flanks. That's how I got them. But in late game teamfights allied get a good bunch of Shermans and infantry in larger numbers than axis.

Like the games I played with RE players it was super easy to get a bunch of Shermans or infantry with emplacments and infantry. You won't keep up with the speed Shermans start to stockpile if you don't manage to take out the first few. That mk vii is just the tip of a spear while US starts to kick in with numbers and supply yard. So you either win before this happens or you go strait for jagdpanzer IV 70 or bigger.

[MarKr]

Well, the Churchill is like a very dull tip of a spearhead as its gun doesn't have much punch against tanks and the tanks that you mentioned are Shermans and those aren't that hard to kill with those Panthers/Tigers. So you even if the Shermans are hiding behind the Mk VII, you can pretty much ignore the MkVII and start picking off the tanks behind it because those 4-8% of penetration from the QF 75mm don't really have to bother you.

That's why I'm asking for some replays - to see the usual way of dealing with Mk VII and that it isn't just "we have to come up with a bit more effort than usual and I don't like that".

[H.Drescher]

Unfortunately I did not save the game we played where there were multiple engagements of Churchill 7s vs the following: All variants of the Panzer IV, Nashorns, Blitzkrieg Doc Panthers, Jagdpanthers, and Jagdtigers. The only tanks that could reliably pen the Churchill 7 at all during this 4v4 was the Panzer Support's Jadgpanthers and the Jadgtigers. The jadgtiger being the most effective tank for fighting them. Surprisingly though, the Jadgtiger was incapable of even oneshotting the majority of the Churchill 7's due to the stacking buffs they receive.

This made me very sad, as a 128mm naval cannon aka "Big Slappy" should be one shotting these tanks regardless of their buffs. buff Big Slappy pls.

As for the 95mm howitzer Churchills, I would suggest nerfing their XP gain as they can farm it too easily.

The Churchill 7, whilst frustrating, I still feel is a "balanced" tank in some sense. I would suggest increasing its fuel income.

I would also suggest mildly hampering its ability to drive backwards into a flak 88 emplacement with no fear. While hilarious, it breaks all of the game's known mechanics of "rear armor should be piss easy to penetrate"

[Walderschmidt]

After thinking about it - I think two changes should be made:

1) Goliaths should have less received accuracy from tank main guns (not HE). This gives them a better chance to hit a churchill while not making it a guarantee since it is likely to not be alone.

It’s supposed to be, as MarKr says, a very dull tip of a Spearhead.

2) Increase penetration chances against its rear armor. Right now when it can drive ass first into an 88 without any fear, it’s rear armor is just broken. I might make a video to demonstrate.

Wald

P.S. The Ace has a 75mm and that gun certainly can put a hurt on other tanks.

Edit: I will upload a video soon with lots of MKVII action. It's rear armor is not as bad as I thought. I think MENCIUS OP is the theme.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

I think fuel price increase + properly working Faust will do the job. Then we can see if the problem still occurs. Right now it’s certainly not balanced, against SE and Propaganda MK7 is insta win, as they basically have no counters besides super late and super expensive Ferdinand and KT.

In general, I am glad that finally after 10 years RE is a viable doctrine, though I would still give them a bit more recon options.

[MarKr]

This made me very sad, as a 128mm naval cannon aka "Big Slappy" should be one shotting these tanks regardless of their buffs. buff Big Slappy pls.

As for the 95mm howitzer Churchills, I would suggest nerfing their XP gain as they can farm it too easily.

The Churchill 7, whilst frustrating, I still feel is a "balanced" tank in some sense. I would suggest increasing its fuel income.

I would also suggest mildly hampering its ability to drive backwards into a flak 88 emplacement with no fear. While hilarious, it breaks all of the game's known mechanics of "rear armor should be piss easy to penetrate"

- more damage for JT should not be a problem.

- slower Vetting for 95mm should be OK too.

- If Mk VII drives backwards to a flak88 emplacement, the flak has 60% chance to penetrate it at max range. Is that really too low? Given how long range and fast reload the flak has, it should be able to shoot several shots before the Churchill even gets to shoot. I know it is rear armor but armor is really the only thing the tank has because its gun isn't anything special. If you compare the frontal penetration of 10% at max range, the increase to 60% from real is pretty substantial + flaks also have AP ability if I'm not mistaken.

1) Goliaths should have less received accuracy from tank main guns (not HE). This gives them a better chance to hit a churchill while not making it a guarantee since it is likely to not be alone.

Recaive accuracy lowers accuracy of anything that shoots at it, so it cannot be applied to AP but not to HE. Whatever unit gets lower accuracy against goliaths will also be less accurate against Axis motorbikes (don't question game logic). It probably won't be an issue for MK VII but might be a problem for some other units.

2) Increase penetration chances against its rear armor. Right now when it can drive ass first into an 88 without any fear, it’s rear armor is just broken. I might make a video to demonstrate.

You're a second person giving the flak88 example. Is this just about the flak or about AT/tank guns in general?

[H.Drescher]

- slower Vetting for 95mm should be OK too.

- If Mk VII drives backwards to a flak88 emplacement, the flak has 60% chance to penetrate it at max range. Is that really too low? Given how long range and fast reload the flak has, it should be able to shoot several shots before the Churchill even gets to shoot. I know it is rear armor but armor is really the only thing the tank has because its gun isn't anything special. If you compare the frontal penetration of 10% at max range, the increase to 60% from real is pretty substantial + flaks also have AP ability if I'm not mistaken.

We did some testing, the mkVII's armor is acceptable driving in reverse actually. It is just a case of extreme RNG and Mencius being Mencius.(pls nerf mencius) The armor is fine.

The pak 43 was able to crit one shot a MK.VII several times while hulled down and at vet 4 with a vet 3 tank commander. While not being in camo. When it didn't crit it did about 25% of its healthbar. Without Veterency it did about 45-50% of it's healthpool.

75mm Pak field guns had no issues stopping these tanks too when in camo, however after the camo bonus, it was rather futile.

Vetting for other Churchills is perfectly fine though.

I cannot express how sad I was when my "Big Slappy©™" did not one shot a Churchill though. my power fantasy was incomplete. please fix it dad.

[crazzy501]

For me Churchills is ok at the moment. They are slow and shrecks can penetrate them. For me with 88 guns it's easy target. Blitzkrieg doc fans loosing their games coz of unable to come up with new tactics? It's not matter for PE TS or Def doc. Keep forcing your P4 rush tactics

[Krieger Blitzer]

Armor on Churchills is completely fine currently, so ya.. we just need to fix the Faust damage and increase the fuel price to above 100 like all other heavy tanks.. so i agree with Sukin.

[Warhawks97]

For me Churchills is ok at the moment. They are slow and shrecks can penetrate them. For me with 88 guns it's easy target. Blitzkrieg doc fans loosing their games coz of unable to come up with new tactics? It's not matter for PE TS or Def doc. Keep forcing your P4 rush tactics

its quite hard to get appropriate counters as BK or prop or luft or TS doc within the time this unit comes out. I did change the tactic, used double schreck team, pak 40 and even managed to immobilize it. But the thing is i couldnt finish it off. A skilled player will have inf nearby and sappers. I even fired officer off map arty on it when it was immobilized and it was not enough. I didnt even try getting tank IV´s here but if your team doesnt get the fuel for a panther to help out things get nasty quickly.

You are super relying on teammates and hoping they choosed the right doc and units.


Anyway, we will see how the schreck damage changes will work out with next update. And a fuel cost increase to 110 would bring it more in line with other heavy tanks. But i am against a MP cost increase.

[Walderschmidt]

So, increase the fuel cost slightly and the decrease it’s accuracy in particular towards Goliaths lol

Wald

[Warhawks97]

So, increase the fuel cost slightly and the decrease it’s accuracy in particular towards Goliaths lol

Wald

can we keep goliath out of this debate first? I am afraid we mess arround with it. Its not supposed to be main anti tank weapon.

[Walderschmidt]

So, increase the fuel cost slightly and the decrease it’s accuracy in particular towards Goliaths lol

Wald

can we keep goliath out of this debate first? I am afraid we mess arround with it. Its not supposed to be main anti tank weapon.

I only want the MKVII to have reduced accuracy vs. the Goliath.

All other tanks under control.

Wald

[MarKr]

I only want the MKVII to have reduced accuracy vs. the Goliath.

As I said - it will reduce accuracy against bikes. And it will also affect the MK VI that uses the same weapon.

can we keep goliath out of this debate first? I am afraid we mess arround with it. Its not supposed to be main anti tank weapon.

It is intended as one of the counters to Churchills.

[Warhawks97]

It is intended as one of the counters to Churchills.

Why so?
Its just another thing that only "the pros" with "secret BK intelligence" will now. The Majority of players wont figure it bc for them the counter to tanks are anti tank guns and infantry anti tank weapon.

So pls, leave these little things as an options, not a mandatory tool to handle tanks now.


so pls, dont touch it. I already saw it killing a couple of tanks.

[CGarr]

Goliath being a counter isn't bad, panther pen chances should be improved against the Mk7 though, maybe through a change to their AP instead of a direct change to the gun? Between those and inf AT, its not that hard to counter. I've killed plenty and seen plenty die. If you just ignore it and kill everything else the CW player has when they rush it, they are fucked, and if they dont rush it, you will probably have access to something big enough to kill it frontally by the time it comes out. Def has Nash and Pak43, SE has Elefant, Prop has KT, PS has a bunch of heavy tanks/TD's, Luft has henschells and panthers, and blitz has panthers, so every doc has an easy to use counter on top of all the other more difficult options.

Churchills really aren't that big of a deal to counter, people are just insistent on trying to kill them instead of everything around them. Without support, churchills are useless, which is why I am against a cost increase. It's already pretty hard to field one with adequate support, so any loss of supporting units has a big impact on the RE player, something easy to exploit as Axis.