British AT infantry

[MarKr]

Hello, we've been watching the posts threads that have been active lately and one of them is about British AT team with PIATs. This thread suggests giving them a (rather pricy) upgrade that would replace the PIATs with bazookas. It seems that people in general agree that some change to PIAT teams is needed but it also seems people aren't really united in what change should take place. We've discussed this internally and narrowed the options down to a few possibilites:

1) Boost the damage and crit chances of PIATs, keep the indirect fire
This is basically a net buff. The indirect fire means that the PIAT squad can shoot at a vehicle but the vehicle cannot shoot back. This is a unique feature of PIATs but because it is such a powerful feature, it is counterweight by the generally bad accuracy and relatively low damage on hit. Therefore buffing the damage and crit chances while keeping the indirect fire would mean the weapon's only downside would be its accuracy.

2) Boost the damage and crit chances of PIATs, remove the indirect fire
The damage would be slightly lower than zookas, but it would have higher chance to cause critical hits than a zooka (but still lower than current RL). This would be at the cost of PIATs requiring direct line of sight. This would remove the "unique" feature of the weapon and would thus make it pretty similar to zookas/schrecks. It pretty much sounds as the safest option but we would like to avoid people crying that we "remove iconic things from BK".

3) Give PIAT squad the upgrade option for bazookas
Still a possibility but this one begs the question "why not just give Brits a separate zooka team?" because if PIATs are so "meh" that players ask for an option to zooka upgrade, it is probably a question of time before someone asks "why do I need to pay 100 ammo for 2 zookas when US has a team for just MP?". On the other hand, if there is a separate bazooka team as well as a PIAT squads, it is very likely that the zooka teams will simply make the PIATs obsolete which is something we would like to avoid because making/adding new units just to turn existing ones obsolete is counterproductive.

4) Other option/idea
We've discussed several other options internally, e.g. making the PIATs shooting directly but adding an option to shoot an indirect salvo too, but all these other ideas ran into technical problems so introducing them would also introduce crapload of bugs. However, maybe some of you has some idea that we didn't think of so we're keeping this option open too.

5) No change
Status quo is an option, too.

So what are your thoughts on this? It would be good to hear why you chose the option you did, too.

[Krieger Blitzer]

i vote 3rd option, giving them Zooka upgrades.

Removing the indirect fire seems like a terrible idea to me, otherwise we could just replace it with Zookas then! Shooting above obstacles is what makes the PIATs unique & different.

Also, i'm not for the 1st option.. as PIATs in my opinion currently perform well enough for their role.

Regarding this however:

3) Give PIAT squad the upgrade option for bazookas
Still a possibility but this one begs the question "why not just give Brits a separate zooka team?" because if PIATs are so "meh" that players ask for an option to zooka upgrade, it is probably a question of time before someone asks "why do I need to pay 100 ammo for 2 zookas when US has a team for just MP?". On the other hand, if there is a separate bazooka team as well as a PIAT squads, it is very likely that the zooka teams will simply make the PIATs obsolete which is something we would like to avoid because making/adding new units just to turn existing ones obsolete is counterproductive.

Paying 100 ammo for 2 Zookas isn't a big deal, Axis pay 75 ammo for 1 Shreck.. also, making Zookas upgradable instead of adding a separate CW Zooka squad makes sense, because PE AT team has 1 Shreck except in Panzer Support doc with unlock. So, the PE faction has harder times obtaining Shrecks, the same way.. CW will have harder times obtaining Zookas.

[MarKr]

"PIATs currently perform well enough for their role" - their role is killing vehicles and tanks, basically British zooka/schreck counterpart. If PIATs are really performing well enough, why did you bring up the post about possible zooka upgrade? Isn't the whole point of the upgrade that the PIATs are lacking in their intended performance?

PE isn't exactly the same in their infantry-AT efforts because they have AT nades and their schreck team can shoot panzerfausts. The PIAT team has just the PIATs.

[Krieger Blitzer]

If PIATs are really performing well enough, why did you bring up the post about possible zooka upgrade? Isn't the whole point of the upgrade that the PIATs are lacking in their intended performance?

Not quite... The reason i brought up the point, is how i wanted CW to have access to both weapons; PIATs & Zookas.
And not because i think PIATs are underperforming.. they just need to be used differently, in fact.. in some situations; they are extremely annoying as they keep wrecking your tanks from behind obstacles, where you can't shoot them back.

Sorry if i haven't clarified the actual motivation of the suggestion the first time i brought it up.
it's not because i think PIATs are currently useless, but just because i think CW should have access to both weapons.

imagine PE faction with an AT team using only Fausts.. people would complain that PE AT inf suck, but does it mean that Fausts suck? Nope.
it just means that Fausts can't be the main thing to rely on. Same way; PIATs can't be the main thing either.

And you have a valid point regarding the PE AT vs CW AT team, but still.. upgrading Zookas for ammo would be the way to go, maybe with less cost.
just my viewpoint, though.

[Consti255]

i voted for 1.
PIATs are unique and i like how they function. But they are really a pain in the a** to use vs moveing targets.
A standing tank behind an obstacle is one thing but when it drives forward and backward its really hard to hit.
I mean when the accuracy is still "bad" it is a welcome change imo. Just keep in mind the damage is worthless when you can dodge it and the accuracy is bad.
Also keep in mind, that zooks/shreks have a much better time vs light vehicles than PIATS.
Hitting a driving scout car is almost a miracle. Which makes them only kinda viable vs medium/maybe heavys (dont know the exact buffs?). So you normally should be able to kite them out with fast 20mm or scout cars. (shoutout for PE TS)
which is normally a really high risk vs zooks.

Sadly number 4 is kinda hard to implement. The ability for indirect fire sounds really cool.

[MenciusMoldbug]

I'll be very honest with you, I don't think PIAT's are in need of any buffs. I remember long time ago having a discussion with someone saying PIAT's were OP (I said they were fine), and it has to do with the fact they 90% of the time oneshot most light vehicles (usually the PE Halftracks, RIP my Mortar Halftrack) if they manage to hit.

And do PIAT's need a critical boost? I always have that one-odd PIAT finding a way to immobilize my tank. Is this just a perception thing or are the bazooka and PIAT critical tables the same?

[MenciusMoldbug]

I should also add that PIAT's shoot faster the closer they are to the target (I think this is the only handheld AT weapon that does this). It is almost a death sentence to have a tank near them because the PIAT goes into rapid-fire mode and starts chucking away at the tank's HP very rapidly. Perhaps this is why my perception of PIAT's being so good is there.

[Walderschmidt]

What if PIATs could only shoot over cover if they had a alt firing mode giving them the ability to do so in exchange for rendering them stationary?

Wald

[H.Drescher]

I personally think PIATS just need a small damage buff against heavier armor. Their damage against panzer iv's and panther's being very much tickle damage.

Their inner workings and everything else being perfectly fine. Though player's perception may be that it is an undervalued unit for its price. The reality is that it's price is justified. They are a niche unit that can fire over walls and control chokepoints, hedges, etc. They can be incredibly oppressive when used in this manner. They can also get more than one shot off from stealth as well.

Yet, the most "simple" buff for the PIAT is actually one of a phycological game: lowering its manpower price significantly for both its normal and commando variant for one or two patches. Another simple thing is to increase it's limit for 2 to 3.

This would in term change player's perceptions of the unit after price changes and a two unit limit again. It would also have more people comfortable with experimenting with such a "risky" unit as it would be rather cheap too. It might be something to look into to change player's perception on this unit or to allow further feedback.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I agree with Mencius, i really think PIATs don't need any buff.. these things are deadly from ambush, and already deal huge damage vs vehicles. The problem isn't the performance of the PIATs.. it's a DIFFERENT weapon than Zookas/Shrecks and shouldn't be compared to them. it's just that CW need access to Zookas beside the current PIATs. it's not the counterpart to Zookas/Shrecks and should never be percieved that way. PIAT is meant to be different, and is not supposed to be as equally strong as Zookas or Shrecks.

Don't buff the PIATs, instead.. keep the PIATs but add Zookas as well.

[MarKr]

Sadly number 4 is kinda hard to implement. The ability for indirect fire sounds really cool.

Yeah, lots of technical issues implementing that one, sadly.

and it has to do with the fact they 90% of the time oneshot most light vehicles (usually the PE Halftracks, RIP my Mortar Halftrack) if they manage to hit.

Yes, but that is a pretty big "IF". They one-shot vehicles very often but iirc it was set that way because of how easy it is to miss with PIATs, which means that hitting two shots within some reasonable time can be a small miracle. Someone else said here how hard it is to hit a moving target with it, so as long as you micro your vehicles, they are pretty safe, at least compared to facing zookas.

And do PIAT's need a critical boost? I always have that one-odd PIAT finding a way to immobilize my tank. Is this just a perception thing or are the bazooka and PIAT critical tables the same?

They already have higher chances to immobilize tanks than zookas. The reason I talked about higher crit chances is the accuracy thing I mentioned above - it can only crit, if it hits and hitting can be problematic, so the higher crit chance was suggested to make sure that when you manage to hit, it is more likely to crit the target than not.

What if PIATs could only shoot over cover if they had a alt firing mode giving them the ability to do so in exchange for rendering them stationary?

Same technical problems as I described in point 4). Any time you want to give them direct/indirect mode, you cannot do it by just applying modifiers, it requires a more complicated process that creates bugs in many scenarios.

Sorry, I'm getting lost in this.

The reason i brought up the point, is how i wanted CW to have access to both weapons; PIATs & Zookas.

OK, so you would like CW to have access to both weapons. But PIATs are OK as they are. However:

Same way; PIATs can't be the main thing either.

They are not OK enough to be the main infantry AT thing? So I suppose the main point was this:

it's a DIFFERENT weapon than Zookas/Shrecks and shouldn't be compared to them.

So they each excel in different situations. Which I would agree with but in that case, if you are in the situation where you need the bazooka, why should you be forced to buy PIATs (that you don't need in that situation), only to drown ammo in the squad, to turn it into what you need? If the main point is that each of the weapons is suited for a different situation and each of them is currently fine when used in the situations they are made for, isn't it just more of a reason to just make two separate squads?

[Krieger Blitzer]

So they each excel in different situations. Which I would agree with but in that case, if you are in the situation where you need the bazooka, why should you be forced to buy PIATs (that you don't need in that situation), only to drown ammo in the squad, to turn it into what you need? If the main point is that each of the weapons is suited for a different situation and each of them is currently fine when used in the situations they are made for, isn't it just more of a reason to just make two separate squads?

They could be 2 separate squads.. but then in order to avoid the argument of; "this way the Zooka team would make the PIAT team absolete" which you pointed out earlier.. now this following idea came up in mind:

instead of the Zooka ammo upgrade, the PIAT team will have a free ability to switch between Zookas and PIATs.. with big enough cool-down to prevent any double-shooting exploit.

[Red]

I would vote for a mixture of options (other).

My suggestion is to have the standard UK-AT squad equipped with bazookas, but for 100 Ammo the player can upgrade to 2x PIATs, and then they are the better version with the +dmg and +crit.
That way if the terrain is favorable for indirect fire the player can spend 100 ammo and get really good PIATs, and if not the AT team is like the others.

[Warhawks97]

I would vote for a mixture of options (other).

My suggestion is to have the standard UK-AT squad equipped with bazookas, but for 100 Ammo the player can upgrade to 2x PIATs, and then they are the better version with the +dmg and +crit.
That way if the terrain is favorable for indirect fire the player can spend 100 ammo and get really good PIATs, and if not the AT team is like the others.

They would then be some sort of a copy of US version.

Also many maps that favours piats have a low ammo income, at least those that i played.

And ultimately, brits have easier access to 17 pdrs. And what cant be killed by 17 pdrs, cant be killed by zooks. So having that combo of a punching gun and a AT squad that crits those that cant be killed by the 17 pdr isnt all that bad i would say.


And brits lack sticky bombs to be some sort of ultimate last effort tool to stop the unstoppable tanks.

[Diablo]

and it has to do with the fact they 90% of the time oneshot most light vehicles (usually the PE Halftracks, RIP my Mortar Halftrack) if they manage to hit.

Yes, but that is a pretty big "IF". They one-shot vehicles very often but iirc it was set that way because of how easy it is to miss with PIATs, which means that hitting two shots within some reasonable time can be a small miracle. Someone else said here how hard it is to hit a moving target with it, so as long as you micro your vehicles, they are pretty safe, at least compared to facing zookas.

Can we have PIATs just hit more consistently? Target moving or standing; i'd prefer reliable, solid damage over RNG hard hitting crits. Better to at least damage a moving vehicle for another unit to finish off, than to not hit anything until it's risky close.
Although I'm not sure if you can make PIATs more precise. Somewhere else I suggested increasing projectile speed, dunno if that might help.

[Krieger Blitzer]

increasing projectile speed would just make PIATs look like guided rockets that can also hit you from above.. in my opinion PIATs currently are fine.

I would say the 2 best options we have is either what Red has suggested, or what i have mentioned regarding the ability to swap weapons.

[kwok]

I HATE saying this. Just wondering. Didn’t British not use bazookas? Or it was not really a prevalent weapon within the CW army?

The only reason I care is not because I care about extreme historical accuracy. But there’s going to be nerds who will say “devs are perverting the historical aspects of the game to fuel their allied fanboy fantasies”.

Someone already got really annoyed because Pershing’s explode in game instead of have a bailed out animation on death because Pershing’s had wet ammo racks, so exploding was inaccurate...

[Krieger Blitzer]

Well, historically.. CW did use Zookas as their main handheld AT weapon during 2nd world war, yes.. just like they did with Shermans.
PIAT was nothing more than a special British weapon, but it was never meant to be a replacement for Zookas.