Bring Back Tank Reverse Controls

[Walderschmidt]

Yay or nay?

I vote this only go for tanks because I had no real issues with their control. It was more map depending when they had an issue that was rare.

This poll decides nothing. It only gives devs a picture of player feelings.

Wald

[mofetagalactica]

If it actually fixes the thing with pathing is ok for me if its goes away but if it dosn't meh....

Maybe make a vote pool for speed changes over rough terrain that everyone seems to hate.

[MarKr]

Can you first play some matches in the beta and tell if you actually feel any impact on the pathing problem? If you tell us that the problem still feels the same then we can revert it (it was actually the plan anyway). If you tell us that the problem is fixed or at least it doesn't feel THAT bad, do you really want to sacrifice better pathing for fewer "shift-clicks"?

[Krieger Blitzer]

The reverse mechanic should stay for eternity.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

I feel like the problem is due to the speed changes that were awful from the start.

[MarKr]

The reverse mechanic should stay for eternity.

I have to admit that I was against it at first but this logical argument, and how well versed it is, absolutely changed my mind. Guys, if anyone wanted to see if maybe the reverse function caused the pathing problems, too bad. We're keeping it because "it should stay for eternity", good luck with microing your vehicles.

I feel like the problem is due to the speed changes that were awful from the start.

Nah, the speed changes should stay for eternity.

[Krieger Blitzer]

The reverse mechanic should stay for eternity.

I have to admit that I was against it at first but this logical argument, and how well versed it is, absolutely changed my mind. Guys, if anyone wanted to see if maybe the reverse function caused the pathing problems, too bad. We're keeping it because "it should stay for eternity", good luck with microing your vehicles.

I feel like the problem is due to the speed changes that were awful from the start.

Nah, the speed changes should stay for eternity.

Hmm, i think you failed to recognise my post, it's an opinion.. not an argument. So, first distinguish between the 2 before trying to mock.. but hey, why the irony in the first place, out of nowhere? Did i say something that bothers you??!! Where is this attitude suddenly coming from?

[MarKr]

Not really "bothers" me but I don't understand why you so vehemently defend this thing even when there is a chance that it causes problems with pathing that people complain about. I don't really care that you personally believe that the pathing is connected to the speed changes which obviously IS possible but we cannot 100% rule out the reverse thing either until it is tested.

I've already said that the reverse WILL come back IF people play some games and report that the problem hasn't been solved by this and your reaction is "it should just stay". So what are you saying here? Even IF the reverse mechanic really causes the pathing issue, it should stay anyway? (not asking ironically, I'm really wondering what your standpoint on this is)

[Krieger Blitzer]

Alright.. all good then.

Let me explain myself a bit.. let's imagine that there is a clock around every tank, if the player clicks anywhere close from 4 o'clock to 8 o'clock the tank will reverse. Now, this reverse mechanic introduced by Endro only made this clock circle bigger, so that the player doesn't have to click too close behind the tank. From my game-play experience; this feature only made it easier to order tanks around, specifically heavies.

However; it does only change a bit the directions where tanks would consider a click as a reverse order, so if you click too close to the sides of the tank, they might actually reverse into that location. Once players figure out this change, it can easily be avoided. And most players have zero issues with it in PVP except some new players and - of course - the A.i as well.

Now, with the removal of this feature.. tank movement would become much worse; because the vanilla mechanism requires the player to click too close behind the tank in order to reverse, resulting in many cases the tank to rotate itself backwards... So, the new reverse mechanic is certainly better in that regard, and it doesn't affect the path finding in any negative ways.

[MarKr]

Yes, I know how the reverse mechanic works. However, problems with path finding WERE reported when the tweak was applied (even in non-AI games). So as I said:

I don't really care that you personally believe that the pathing is connected to the speed changes which obviously IS possible but we cannot 100% rule out the reverse thing either until it is tested.

And you didn't answer the question:

So what are you saying here? Even IF the reverse mechanic really causes the pathing issue, it should stay anyway?

[Krieger Blitzer]

And you didn't answer the question:

So what are you saying here? Even IF the reverse mechanic really causes the pathing issue, it should stay anyway?

Answering your question, if the reverse mechanic is found to cause pathing issues.. then no, it shouldn't stay.

However, it's not causing pathing issues.. and is considered an improvement compared to the vanilla mechanism, which has pathing issues by default.

[CGarr]

Alright.. all good then.

Let me explain myself a bit.. let's imagine that there is a clock around every tank, if the player clicks anywhere close from 4 o'clock to 8 o'clock the tank will reverse. Now, this reverse mechanic introduced by Endro only made this clock circle bigger, so that the player doesn't have to click too close behind the tank. From my game-play experience; this feature only made it easier to order tanks around, specifically heavies.

However; it does only change a bit the directions where tanks would consider a click as a reverse order, so if you click too close to the sides of the tank, they might actually reverse into that location. Once players figure out this change, it can easily be avoided. And most players have zero issues with it in PVP except some new players and - of course - the A.i as well.

Now, with the removal of this feature.. tank movement would become much worse; because the vanilla mechanism requires the player to click too close behind the tank in order to reverse, resulting in many cases the tank to rotate itself backwards... So, the new reverse mechanic is certainly better in that regard, and it doesn't affect the path finding in any negative ways.

That's how it should function, but almost every single person I've played BK with has bitched about the reverse thing either being inconsistent or flat out never working. Using your clock example, personally I've only found it only used to work between like 5:30 and 6:30. Not saying the new system is perfect, as I've already seen some weird pathing, but the reverse mechanic wasn't exactly a masterpiece.

[Warhawks97]

I may ask how this reverse system actually work? I used my tanks the way i always did, just sometimes they went in ass first for now reason.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Alright.. all good then.

Let me explain myself a bit.. let's imagine that there is a clock around every tank, if the player clicks anywhere close from 4 o'clock to 8 o'clock the tank will reverse. Now, this reverse mechanic introduced by Endro only made this clock circle bigger, so that the player doesn't have to click too close behind the tank. From my game-play experience; this feature only made it easier to order tanks around, specifically heavies.

However; it does only change a bit the directions where tanks would consider a click as a reverse order, so if you click too close to the sides of the tank, they might actually reverse into that location. Once players figure out this change, it can easily be avoided. And most players have zero issues with it in PVP except some new players and - of course - the A.i as well.

Now, with the removal of this feature.. tank movement would become much worse; because the vanilla mechanism requires the player to click too close behind the tank in order to reverse, resulting in many cases the tank to rotate itself backwards... So, the new reverse mechanic is certainly better in that regard, and it doesn't affect the path finding in any negative ways.

That's how it should function, but almost every single person I've played BK with has bitched about the reverse thing either being inconsistent or flat out never working.

i would be more conservative throwing such claims... i play in all time zones (not just the American one where i think you are from) and i never really saw anyone complaining too much about the reverse mechanic in particular, some players do complain about path finding issues.. but even long before the reverse mechanic was introduced; it has always been the case. CoH1 path finding is simply flawed by default... if anything, the reverse mechanic has only made it less drastic in comparison.

I may ask how this reverse system actually work? I used my tanks the way i always did, just sometimes they went in ass first for now reason.

Trust me, the reverse mechanic is a huge improvement compared to the original state.. and without it, your tank will drive its ass way more often than it does currently. Some players just assume too much, if there is really an emerging pathing issue with tanks.. then i'm absolutely certain the reverse mechanic isn't the cause. And as far as i can tell, there isn't a serious pathing issue with tanks in the first place, it's armored cars that really dance around.. specifically when moving over craters, due to the speed changes in that regard.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Bump...

I've already said that the reverse WILL come back IF people play some games and report that the problem hasn't been solved by this and your reaction is "it should just stay".

So, i can see the beta is going live soon with the reverse mechanic being removed anyways? Regardless of evidence, polls or anything! Pppfffff.
Guys, don't be stone-headed like that... i already told you the reverse mechanic doesn't cause pathing issues whatsoever.
Now we are back to the crimpled vanilla reverse system once again..... 99999999 clicks to reverse just 2 meters with a tank.

Based on what exactly is this being removed??? an assumption that it MIGHT be causing issues??? Come on!

[MarKr]

Regardless of evidence,

What exact evidence of the reverse mechanic NOT causing the issues do you have? So far all your posts boiled down to "just trust me".

99999999 clicks to reverse just 2 meters with a tank.

It has pros and cons...this number of clicks to "reverse 2 meters" would mean you'd have to make those clicks within a second or two, which would most likely break your mouse and also crash the game - those are the cons. On the other hand, if you pull off that many clicks per second, I'm pretty sure you'll qualify for the Guiness world record - that's definitely a pro.

Based on what exactly is this being removed??? an assumption that it MIGHT be causing issues??? Come on!

Yes, based exactly on that assumption. If people play the game and give us genuine feedback about not seeing any change in the path finding, we will be able to rule out that assumption as false and it will be based on data. We prefer to gather data and build conclusions on that rather than building conclusion just on an assumption that it MIGHT NOT be causing issues.

[Walderschmidt]

After playing 3-4 games, I don’t feel like the change has really helped.

I think it’s more map dependent. It just feels like I have pathing issues and now have to micro my tanks more. I didn’t post this earlier because I only had a couple of games under my belt.

I personally would like the reverse mechanic brought back for tanks only because I didn’t really have much of a problem with their pathing to begin with.

Wald

[Krieger Blitzer]

It has pros and cons...this number of clicks to "reverse 2 meters" would mean you'd have to make those clicks within a second or two, which would most likely break your mouse and also crash the game - those are the cons. On the other hand, if you pull off that many clicks per second, I'm pretty sure you'll qualify for the Guiness world record - that's definitely a pro.

Hey dude, what's wrong with you today? Please enough with the irony/water-fall you keep coming down with.
Which i still have no idea where it's coming from... it's not even funny. What's wrong man? Are you high or something? Come on...

What exact evidence of the reverse mechanic NOT causing the issues do you have? So far all your posts boiled down to "just trust me".

My friend, what evidence exactly would u want me to provide? in fact, those who claim the reverse mechanic cause pathing issues.. are the ones required to provide an evidence for their claim; not the opposite! Because i simply tell that everything WORKS fine, and i don't need to prove that.
So, there is nothing to prove on my end... Or do you want me to provide a proof on that there is nothing really to prove? it just WORKS.

Those who claim the reverse mechanic is causing path finding issues, are not the majority.. not to mention they have no strong evidence on it.

Yes, based exactly on that assumption. If people play the game and give us genuine feedback about not seeing any change in the path finding, we will be able to rule out that assumption as false and it will be based on data. We prefer to gather data and build conclusions on that rather than building conclusion just on an assumption that it MIGHT NOT be causing issues.

You did a great job with 5.2.5 but you kinda lost it with 5.2.6 to be honest... i am not mad at you personally, but i am mad on how the reverse mechanic is getting removed; while it's something that made BK MOD unique and special. Patches are supposed to improve the MOD further or tweak its existing mechanics to function better, and NOT to roll the game back to vanilla state!!! That's MUCH worse then... You get my point?!

[MarKr]

Hey dude, what's wrong with you today? Please enough with the irony/water-fall you keep coming down with.
Which i still have no idea where it's coming from... it's not even funny. What's wrong man? Are you high or something? Come on...

Hey man, you're the one who started with sarcasm when you said that you'll need to make "99999999 clicks to reverse just 2 meters with a tank". If you can use sarcastic exaggeration, I can reply with irony.

My friend, what evidence exactly would u want me to provide?

Well you wrote it yourself:

Regardless of evidence, polls or anything!

So...what evidence were you talking about when now you say yourself that you don't have nor have to provide any?

You did a great job with 5.2.5 but you kinda lost it with 5.2.6 to be honest... i am not mad at you personally, but i am mad on how the reverse mechanic is getting removed; while it's something that made BK MOD unique and special. Patches are supposed to improve the MOD further or tweak its existing mechanics to function better, and NOT to roll the game back to vanilla state!!! That's MUCH worse then... You get my point?!

This is like talking to a goddam brick wall...this conversation has pretty much been going like this:
M: Reverse mechanic is removed to see if it helps solving the reverse issue
T: OMG don't remove the reverse function it makes BK mod so special, I'm sad about this
M: It is just to see if it causes the problem, if not, we'll put it back
T: Don't remove the reverse function, it doesn't cause the problem, it is more likely the speeds
M: Yeah, speeds are another suspect but we go one suspect at a time. If it shows the reverse mechanic is not the problem, it will be back
T: I see beta went live and reverse mechanic is still removed, OMG why?
M: We need to make sure it doesn't cause the path finding problems. IT WILL BE BACK IF IT PROVES THAT IT ISN'T CAUSING THE PATH FINDING PROBLEM.
T: The game is better with it. Why did you remove it?
M:

There IS a problem with path finding. There several POSSIBLE sources of this problem. The reverse function is one of the POSSIBLE sources. I've said several times already that IF the reverse function proves to NOT be the source, it WILL be put back. We just want people to play the game and tell if they feel any difference regarding the reverse function. During the entire beta phase NOBODY said anything about the problem being better, worse or the same, thus we had no feedback and thus it went into the live version where people will play it more and maybe we'll finally get some damn feedback about this and we'll be able to confirm that the reverse mechanic is 100% not the problem and so we'll put it back and move to the next thing that is a possible source of the path finding problem. You get my point?!

[Wolf]

Dont act like its end of the world, if it proves that its not any better, it will be "reverted" again.

The only valid player info in this topic is from Wald, beta wasnt played, so its now in live, you will still be good tiger, dont worry.

Just stop.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Alright then, if you say so.

[H.Drescher]

Playing without the reverse function was a little bit shocking at first. I noticed vehicles being mildly more responsive, but they had issues traveling over certain terrain types still. I would personally prefer tank reverse back as it was a little shocking having to click directly behind them again spamming as stated. Nothing too bad to get used to though if it constantly applies good path finding tho.

[mofetagalactica]

Same, i preffer having reverse function back again, the pathing issues still happen, i would really check if the speed changes over terrain wasn't the main thing producing this.

[CGarr]

I think we just need time to get used to it TBH, give it a month and then make a poll.

[CGarr]

That's how it should function, but almost every single person I've played BK with has bitched about the reverse thing either being inconsistent or flat out never working.

i would be more conservative throwing such claims... i play in all time zones (not just the American one where i think you are from) and i never really saw anyone complaining too much about the reverse mechanic in particular, some players do complain about path finding issues.. but even long before the reverse mechanic was introduced; it has always been the case. CoH1 path finding is simply flawed by default... if anything, the reverse mechanic has only made it less drastic in comparison.

I also play in all zones, not sure what that has to do with anything. I've tried to bring a lot of friends into BK and a common complaint from literally all of them was that tanks always turned around when you tried to reverse. That's not a claim, that is just a factual statement of what I have experienced. I didn't say everyone in BK, I said almost everyone, although amongst newer players, it's guaranteed to come up at some point from what I've seen. I don't know if the new change has helped, its only been out for like a week. Give it time. You're telling me to be conservative but you're immediately calling for another change. It's a bit late to be conservative, the work has been done. Let's at least get some more time to acclimate. I agree that it definitely felt off at first, but I think that's just us not being used to it.