Merge Panzerjaeger & Support Command for SE

[Walderschmidt]

This thread got too complicated. So I am reposting this issue here:

Do we merge the Panzerjaeger & Support Command? Yay or Nay?

As you can see - you can easily fit either set of units and upgrades into the other building without even having to use a switch UI indicator. This poll is not a decision maker, just tool for devs to see vague idea of player opinion.

I would prefer this option to making one building cheaper once the second one is built. Or maybe making them cost the same (300ish mp 40-50 fuel).

Wald

[MarKr]

As I said in this topic:

I didn't mean "enough space gameplay-wise" but "gamefile-wise". The CW tank truck can produce 13 different units across the doctrines. Some doctrines have fewer units available but from technical perspective, the truck still "has them inside" but the game just hides the icons of some of them when you select specific doctrines. From gameplay perspective, I think there is a limit to how many different unit types can be "stored in a spawner unit". The two PE buildings have altogether 28 different units (some units such as stubby PIV need to take more "slots" for techical reasons) in them and I think you cannot cram that many in one building.

That's why I suggested the cost drop - it keeps units distributed in two buildings and doesn't run into this thing.

So nay.

[Warhawks97]

As already mentioned, both buildings have basically a role by its name.

On top of it merging both would end up in massive cost for a single building in order to compensate the Tec cost. Like 800 mp or something and 100 fuel.

I prefer to have buildings less expensive but therefore more specialized to provide certain capabilities. Just as it is with units. A loss of a building would also hurt less. Like when a plane crashes into it.

[MEFISTO]

As already mentioned, both buildings have basically a role by its name.

On top of it merging both would end up in massive cost for a single building in order to compensate the Tec cost. Like 800 mp or something and 100 fuel.

I prefer to have buildings less expensive but therefore more specialized to provide certain capabilities. Just as it is with units. A loss of a building would also hurt less. Like when a plane crashes into it.

Agree

[Diablo]

As already mentioned, both buildings have basically a role by its name.

I dont think this should be an argument.

WH's T3 "Tank Factory" is a rebrand of what Vcoh called "Assault Armory".

Quite on the contrary, the names result in unnecessary restrictions. Why not rename the buildings and be done with the inconvenient choice between MBTs and THs?
Panzer Support Kommand would turn into a Panzer Factory (or, sticking with the PE scheme, Panzer Kommand).
The Panzerjäger Kommand would be Heavy Tank Factory(/Kommand) then. Not all three PE docs might need the heavy building.

Idk about the teching and whether to make them successive instead of available at the same time.

[Warhawks97]

As already mentioned, both buildings have basically a role by its name.

I dont think this should be an argument.

WH's T3 "Tank Factory" is a rebrand of what Vcoh called "Assault Armory".

Quite on the contrary, the names result in unnecessary restrictions. Why not rename the buildings and be done with the inconvenient choice between MBTs and THs?
Panzer Support Kommand would turn into a Panzer Factory (or, sticking with the PE scheme, Panzer Kommand).
The Panzerjäger Kommand would be Heavy Tank Factory(/Kommand) then. Not all three PE docs might need the heavy building.

Idk about the teching and whether to make them successive instead of available at the same time.

I liked the old system more because units got more evenly streched. These "final" axis buildings and the idea that they only have to build one or two "super units" is just crap. It reminds me on dawn of War I where you got your last building only to build your relic vehicle, one, ultimate, limited bad ass unit.

These buildngs cost a lot for a single costly unit. We could just as well rebrand these "Heavy Tank buildings" into "super propagandistic building" that produces only "super propagandistic German Über units". The only thing this shit has brought to BK is the belive that such units, which require the a single and most expensive building that makes up like 1/4 of the entire tec cost of a faction, that these units you get out of them and which also cost a ton of ressources, have to behave abnormaly strong.

I guess your proposal would turn the jäger command into the "common tank building" which builds Marders, Tank IV´s, JP IV´s, Hetzer, Nashorn, Wespe and so on. And The Heavy Tank Command would be needed only for All Tigers and Panthers. SE would build the last building just for the Elephant and Luftwaffe just for Panthers. Yeah, great, and that building is the most expensive one.

The issue that comes with such buildings is tec balance. As US and CW you have to go full tec in order to have just the basic stuff like M10 or 76 sherman. Thats 925 to 1075 MP and 150-180 fuel or rather 205 for jacks and e8 (and more).

WH reaches basically the same tec lvl at 875 MP and 125 fuel where they can get good Medium Tanks, good arty, Good TDs like stugs and JP IV, stuhs and all that stuff.

PE, now assuming changes the buildings in a similiar way, would reach the "Tank IV tec" at 900 and 125. Then they get, like WH, pretty much everything out of the same building.

People like me barely build the last WH building because i never used Tigers and barely Panthers. Thus "max tec" as axis is for me far cheaper than "max tec" as allied.



Thats why i would make it the other way arround: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4109

Get rid of the Heavy Tank factory bullcrap, these propaganda producing nonsense. A Expensive building just to build an expensive unit is pretty much to the Dawn of War I relic building to get one single Relic Vehicle. Which, funnily for the Imperials, was the Bandeblade that required a massive building for its own. Its pretty much what a KT is in BK.


So instead, for WH and PE, make both buildings available at the same time for relatively low cost. In order to build heavier stuff you would just require some additional building/HQ upgrades and get rid of that terms "heavy Tank factory". The funny thing is that the panther was actually a medium tank with good gun and front armor and supposed to replace the Tank IV as medium tank. It got build in normal Tank factories so why not putting Panthers and Tank IV´s into one building which is called Tank Factory.. Vehicles, Stugs, Arty and tanks like Panzer IV and Panther would thus be more evenly stretched about the entire tec line. And as PE you would get cheap access to Jäger and Support command, depending on what the situation requires you to have. And to get the big shit you just have to pay some extra MP and fuel to upgrade each of these buildings instead of having to build an entirely new building just to get the last heavy unit.

[CGarr]

So instead, for WH and PE, make both buildings available at the same time for relatively low cost. In order to build heavier stuff you would just require some additional building/HQ upgrades and get rid of that terms "heavy Tank factory". The funny thing is that the panther was actually a medium tank with good gun and front armor and supposed to replace the Tank IV as medium tank. It got build in normal Tank factories so why not putting Panthers and Tank IV´s into one building which is called Tank Factory.. Vehicles, Stugs, Arty and tanks like Panzer IV and Panther would thus be more evenly stretched about the entire tec line. And as PE you would get cheap access to Jäger and Support command, depending on what the situation requires you to have. And to get the big shit you just have to pay some extra MP and fuel to upgrade each of these buildings instead of having to build an entirely new building just to get the last heavy unit.

I like this suggestion quite a bit, I've already stated how much I hate that heavies are seen as some sort of "super-unit" in BK. MarkR also made an interesting suggestion for PE in that building cost would get reduced for one building if you build the other (support first -> cheap jager, jager first -> cheap support). This addresses the cost issues, but I think you make a good point in that this change should also be used to get rid of the notion that heavies are super units, so that their costs can be changed to something that would allow them to be replaced more easily to make inf AT changes less punishing.

[Diablo]

Wow thats a lot to process.

I agree that there shouldn't be any 1-2 unit buildings.

Let me rephrase it this way:
The smaller PE 3rd tier building could be rebranded Kampfwagen Kommand or something else that means light tank/tank support/armored vehicles factory.
It includes the Marder versions I/III, Panzer III N, Hetzer, Wirbelwind, Flame Hetzer, Wespe, stubby Panzer IV E and maybe the longbarrel F2.
Then i'd lift over the heaviest units from the Logistics Kompanie; obviously the Hotchkiss, the 75mm Puma and i'd even consider the Sd.Kfz. 221/222 (those armored cars) for this. The selection of available units obviously still depends on doctrine choice.

The bigger, squared building could be named Panzer Kommand would house the rest of tanks and the Bergetiger.

This way the gameplay shifts a bit to a more forgiving T3. Previously the choice was between tank hunters and "real" tanks + support where you're essentially screwed if the opponent starts spamming a different unit type.

With the approach described above the choice really is more one of available resources. If the map offers lots or if you're confident of holding plenty of fuel points, go ahead and build the Panzer Kommand and start out with the high quality Panzer IVs.
Otherwise choose the discount roster of units. Both contain AT options as well as generalists.

What do you think?

And for the record, i agree with your standpoints against über-units. The Jagdpanther change was a good call for instance.

[Warhawks97]

Wow thats a lot to process.

I agree that there shouldn't be any 1-2 unit buildings.

Let me rephrase it this way:
The smaller PE 3rd tier building could be rebranded Kampfwagen Kommand or something else that means light tank/tank support/armored vehicles factory.
It includes the Marder versions I/III, Panzer III N, Hetzer, Wirbelwind, Flame Hetzer, Wespe and stubby Panzer IV E and maybe the longbarrel F2.
Then i'd lift over the heaviest units from the Logistics Kompanie; obviously the Hotchkiss, the 75mm Puma and i'd even consider the Sd.Kfz. 221/222 (those armored cars) for this. The selection of available units obviously still depends on doctrine choice.

I was Brainstorming a bit and your proposal sounds quite good.

I am writing down two ideas i got of how we could make these two buildings more defined and usefull while providing more than just one single unit or über-unit.


Idea/option 1:
The Tank support command remains a Tank support command while getting more units.
Panzer Jäger command renamed into Tank Command

Cost of the Tank Support Building:
220MP/ 30 fuel

Optional upgrade cost for certain units:
80 MP/ 50 fuel

That might be added to unlock Hummel and Nashorn (if there is any left in PE), Wespe and Perhaps Bergetiger

Units in the Tank support Building:
-Marder III
-Geschützwagen (actually also a Marder type)
-sdkfz 234/4 Puma with 75 mm Pak 40
-sdkfz 250 with 75 mm pak 40
-20 mm Car Sdkfz 222
-Panzer IV Stubby
-Panzer III
-Hotchkiss
-(210 mm Nebelwerfer)

Available after Upgrade (80/50):
-(Hetzers)
-(Wirbelwind)
-(Stug III)
-Bergetiger
-Wespe
-Hummel
-(Nashorn)
In short it contains all the heavy support equipment, from heavy anti tank SPGs to arty and support tanks.


Panzer-Jager-Command renamed into Panzer Command

Cost of the Building:
300 MP/ 70 fuel

Upgrade cost to unlock heavier units
- I would split that one into three upgrades

First:
50 MP/ 35 fuel

Second:
75 MP /45 fuel

Third:
75 MP/ 55 fuel


Units in this Building:
-Panzer IV F2
-(Stug III)

After First upgrade (50/35)
-Panzer IV H
-Jagdpanzer IV/48
-Tigers
- Panther D
-(Hetzer)

After Second Upgrade (75/45):
-Panzer IV J
-Jagdpanzer IV/70
-Panther A/G
-Jagdpanther


After Third upgrade (75/55):
-King Tigers
-Jagdtiger




Note:
-Due to the move or certain units to the Tank support command the logistic company upgrade is removed and both buildings available right away.
- Total Tec cost only TS Command building: 770 MP /75 fuel, 850/ 125 after upgrade
- Total Tech cost only Tank Command: building: 300 MP/ 115 fuel , 900/ 150, 975/ 195, 1050/ 250
- Full PE Tech which is basically only available for TS doc: 1350 MP /330 fuel.








Option Two:

Second Option is with Panzer-Jäger Command keeping its name and only producing Tank destroyer:

Cost of the Panzer Jäger Command:
200/30:

First upgrade:
50 MP/ 50 fuel:

second upgrade:
50 MP/ 50 fuel

Units available:
-Marder/Geschützwagen
-sdkfz 234/4 Puma with 75 mm Pak 40
-Sdkfz 250 with 75 mm Pak 40

Units available after first upgrade (50/50):
- Hetzer
-Jagdpanzer IV/48
- Nashorn

Units available after second upgrade (50/50):
- Jagdpanzer IV/70
- Jagdpanther
- Jagdtiger
- Elephant


Panzer-Support-Command cost:
200/45

First upgrade:
50 MP /40 fuel

Second upgrade:
50 MP /40 fuel

Third upgrade:
75 MP/ 50 fuel

Units available in this building:
-Stubby Tank IV
-Panzer III

Aavailable after first upgrade (50/40):
-Panzer IV F2
-Stug III
-Panzer IV H
-Bergetiger
-Wespe

Available after second upgrade (50/40)
-Panzer IV J
-Panther D
-Tiger
-Hummel

Available after third upgrade (75/50):
- Panther A/G
- King Tiger


Notes:
Logistic company upgrade removed as well and cost dropped to 200
-Total tec cost Panzer-Jäger command only: 750/ 75, 800/ 125, 850/ 175
-Total tec cost Panzer-Support command only: 750/90, 800/130, 850/170, 925/220
-Total tec cost in theory: 1775/395. That sounds a lot but three things should keep in mind:
First, most or actually non of the docs will ever need to reach this tec or simply cant. SE might in future due to the elephant and Hummel, but in praxis i doubt anyone would ever get both of these units due to their cost and CP unlock lines. On top of that, US is also going to pay that much to reach "full tec".
Secondly, everything else is earlier available if anyone has an urgent need to get it. Thus Tank IV Stubby, Tank III, Panzer IV F2 and H can be build earlier now
Thirdly, unit cost can drop down from units like Marder, Puma with 75 mm Pak 40, Panther G and so on in exchange for somewhat increased tec cost.