Worst Update since a long time

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Panzerknacker
Posts: 2
Joined: 08 Jan 2015, 16:10

Worst Update since a long time

Post by Panzerknacker »

Hey Folks

Some of you know me maybe from earlier times of this mod ;)
I had a brake in playing it for severl Years because of private live.

Thanks for keeping up the development of the mod all the years, think Xalibur would have likedt
to see that the mod goes on.

But, i have to admit, i never had a much more unbalanced and suprising experience since the new overhaul update.

On one hand, good job, the newer faction System worked a bit better now and are more usefull from time t time, but
in case of balancing Tanks and Infantrie its more like garbage.

Some things are bother me most.

1. Airborne

2. Tank Damage System

3. Handheld AT Weapon System


Lets beginn with 1.

In the last matches i could enjoy as Airborne, it was as an allie pretty pretty easy ;)
Stomped my german counterparts in the ground.

As an german it is more.... frustrating and quite ridiculous when you see what happend to the airborne guys.
The Update System for their Weaponry make the FG 42 useless against infantry and the german mountain troopers..... dont say much about them ether.

Although on paper it looks good, praktically the german paras are not so usefull anymore. Better use Standart infnatry and buff then.
I dont understand the nerf of them either, because playing with them was hard bevore and now it is completly nuts.

2. AS an Allie , ist quiet easy to destroy german heavy cats now, interessting and for a lot of german players quite anoying i guess, but thats not my point besides it not reallistic that you need often 3 shots with an 88 to destroy an sherman.

Much more interesting is the fact, that the german wirlwind cant shroud infantry anymore and even dont do this after update it to HE ammo.
Besides their british counterpart work pretty perfect.

Again , Why ?


3. Handheald AT Weaponsystems or why a Panzerfaust is useless now

Next mayor thing is, why the german Panzerfaust, especially that of the german Mountain Troopers, wich where allways a Panzerfaust 100 got such a heavy nerf ? I mean i can understand , that as an allie it is ncie to drive your sherman straight trough but guys.....honestly ?


There a much more things, who are not good but dont disrupt the game, either as Ally or Axi.
The balancing in a Mod lik this is a Nightmare, and we had the disskussion in the old BK Forum a lot when someone remember ;)

I would like to diskuss this topic if the devs are interessted in because i think this are major setbacks in balancing.

thanks for reading and have a good time

Panzerknacker

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Warhawks97
Posts: 4294
Joined: 23 Nov 2014, 21:45
Location: Germany

Re: Worst Update since a long time

Post by Warhawks97 »

Panzerknacker wrote:
14 Jan 2021, 15:05


1. Airborne
you mean luftwaffe?
2. Tank Damage System
it didnt got changed in any way.
3. Handheld AT Weapon System
not much changes either.


Lets beginn with 1.


As an german it is more.... frustrating and quite ridiculous when you see what happend to the airborne guys.
The Update System for their Weaponry make the FG 42 useless against infantry and the german mountain troopers..... dont say much about them ether.

Although on paper it looks good, praktically the german paras are not so usefull anymore. Better use Standart infnatry and buff then.
I dont understand the nerf of them either, because playing with them was hard bevore and now it is completly nuts.

elite inf is not so elite right at start anymore. But they get better over time with upgrades and become real badass units. But its not that you deploy them and they kill everything right away


And you fallis got rekt by basic inf? Thats what it feels like when the 101st get stommped into the ground by pios and volkssturm with mp40.

Yes, basic inf is not as usless anymore and elite scales into late game rather than being rambos from the start.

2. AS an Allie , ist quiet easy to destroy german heavy cats now, interessting and for a lot of german players quite anoying i guess, but thats not my point besides it not reallistic that you need often 3 shots with an 88 to destroy an sherman.
again, pen stats of guns vs heavy tanks got not changed.

In fact, the 88 gun on tigers got a damage buff. No joke. It kills basic shermans at least easier. 3 Hits is what you need when you are unlucky enough to only deal crits
Much more interesting is the fact, that the german wirlwind cant shroud infantry anymore and even dont do this after update it to HE ammo.
Besides their british counterpart work pretty perfect.
I am using everytime i play Luft. Its the aa unit that kills and suppress every inf unit faster than M16 or crusader. With my M16 i have to drive backwards when inf charges me and it takes a good long burst before it suppresses and kills.

The Wirbel kill 4 soldiers right with the first burst that lasts shorter than a second sometimes.
I have made various screenshots of this when i watched the replay.

When HE is active, nothing kills inf as quickly as wirbelwind.



3. Handheald AT Weaponsystems or why a Panzerfaust is useless now
Because of aim time or what?
Panzerfaust has 100% pen vs everything so how exactly it got usless now?
Next mayor thing is, why the german Panzerfaust, especially that of the german Mountain Troopers, wich where allways a Panzerfaust 100 got such a heavy nerf ? I mean i can understand , that as an allie it is ncie to drive your sherman straight trough but guys.....honestly ?
Actually it should still be the 100. However it had more range than tanks HE rounds.
You can still use them from ambush.

There a much more things, who are not good but dont disrupt the game, either as Ally or Axi.
The balancing in a Mod lik this is a Nightmare, and we had the disskussion in the old BK Forum a lot when someone remember ;)

I would like to diskuss this topic if the devs are interessted in because i think this are major setbacks in balancing.

thanks for reading and have a good time
idk when you play the game for the last time. I remember the old forum very well. But back then a lot of stuff in BK was outright broken and got fixed by Wolf and Markr.


So idk what kind of balance you are exactly talking about.

kwok
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Posts: 2266
Joined: 29 Mar 2015, 05:22

Re: Worst Update since a long time

Post by kwok »

1. Yes I think he means luft doc.
The general changes to luft strategy are as follows:
Reg5 inf are weaker at the start but scale to much stronger than before. With all the CP unlocks plus officers they are stronger than they were before the latest patch. In general, other paths on the luft doc got reworked to be less powerful at the start but more flexible in how you can unlock them to address a particular situation. If you are more adaptive in your strategies around your new powerspikes will help you utilize luft more efficiently than before. If you play luft doc like you would in 5.1.7, you will likely suffer.

2. In what way are german heavy tanks easier to kill than before? it's partially true in that all allied doctrines now have some capability in being able to address heavy tanks. The inverse is true however, all axis doctrines have capabilities to handle allied doctrines. For a team to eliminate heavy tanks, yes it is easier because there are more options. As an individual, it may still be difficult. On the inverse, for axis same things can be true or reversed depending on the selected doctrine. For example, in the past terror doctrine had no AA capabilities to stop airstrikes, so AB was a natural counter. Now propaganda doctrine (and every axis doctrine) has AA capabilities to completely shut out AB airpower.

3. We did not change this at all. If anything, we gave more units panzerfausts (see volkssturmm CP panzerfaust ugprade). Otherwise, panzerfausts and other AT was not changed at all. The only handheld AT that was changed is the airborne recoiless rifle, it has 75% less damage but more chance to land criticals.

Panzerknacker
Posts: 2
Joined: 08 Jan 2015, 16:10

Re: Worst Update since a long time

Post by Panzerknacker »

Thanks Kwok for the fast reply.

1. I am not familiar with 5.1.7 , to be honest, i stopped playing with 4.8 / 4.9 or something.
For me , personaly , it is now not interesting to play as Luft because you geld pretty easy shroud now by Allied Airborne,
namly 82 und 101 without greater options in a direct konfrontation of these two units.

I think it was a good idea to rework Luft as a whole, and i get the idea behind it, but for me it wont work as german. As Allie i have a pretty good
time , works fine ^^


2. I have a replay, send from an Friend of mine which i woud like to show you, kwok because i am intrested in your opinion about it.
That shows pretty good what i suppose. I think its the way, how the damage system counts hits and work with Vet buffs und buffs for ammo and
stuff.


3. Same here. Maybe it is not the damage and more the system behind it. Same Problem for Years when i remember correktly.
A Faust is great when you ambush someone , but when the tank is always still standing after it, it gets.... interesting ;)
Shrek from the Mountain troopers are interesting for me because in the latest version i played before i had a brake, the Faust 100 killed most of the
Tanks one shot, because you had it in only one faction in one single unit and cost Ammo, so it was a balancing reason.


Thanks again Kwok for your good and structured reply , i hope i could show my points clearer now.
Warhawks, smae for you thx for your reply.

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PanzarFather
Posts: 176
Joined: 04 May 2020, 15:30

Re: Worst Update since a long time

Post by PanzarFather »

Panzerknacker wrote:
14 Jan 2021, 15:05


Lets beginn with 1.

In the last matches i could enjoy as Airborne, it was as an allie pretty pretty easy ;)
Stomped my german counterparts in the ground.

As an german it is more.... frustrating and quite ridiculous when you see what happend to the airborne guys.
The Update System for their Weaponry make the FG 42 useless against infantry and the german mountain troopers..... dont say much about them ether.

Although on paper it looks good, praktically the german paras are not so usefull anymore. Better use Standart infnatry and buff then.
I dont understand the nerf of them either, because playing with them was hard bevore and now it is completly nuts.

2. AS an Allie , ist quiet easy to destroy german heavy cats now, interessting and for a lot of german players quite anoying i guess, but thats not my point besides it not reallistic that you need often 3 shots with an 88 to destroy an sherman.

Much more interesting is the fact, that the german wirlwind cant shroud infantry anymore and even dont do this after update it to HE ammo.
Besides their british counterpart work pretty perfect.

Again , Why ?


3. Handheald AT Weaponsystems or why a Panzerfaust is useless now

Next mayor thing is, why the german Panzerfaust, especially that of the german Mountain Troopers, wich where allways a Panzerfaust 100 got such a heavy nerf ? I mean i can understand , that as an allie it is ncie to drive your sherman straight trough but guys.....honestly ?


There a much more things, who are not good but dont disrupt the game, either as Ally or Axi.
The balancing in a Mod lik this is a Nightmare, and we had the disskussion in the old BK Forum a lot when someone remember ;)

I would like to diskuss this topic if the devs are interessted in because i think this are major setbacks in balancing.

thanks for reading and have a good time

Panzerknacker

I have been saying this all the time, but it's good that more and more people are noticing this now and are letting their voices being heard.
The devs are allies fanboys and they nerf axis to shit.
I play both allies and axis these days, I know quite well how to abuse allies powers.
I agree to all of your points btw.

First thing a serious dev should do to fix luftwaffe is to make Wirbelwind 5 times effective in killing, and fix all the examples you brought up too about the 88s and Fallskirmjägers.

Another thing:
The Pantrums btw are totally useless, they can as well be removed, they no longer fulfill any function anymore. Anyone who start building one shows a sign of being a completly noob. Either you make them usefull or there is no point of having them.

Diablo
Posts: 150
Joined: 02 Mar 2017, 22:40

Re: Worst Update since a long time

Post by Diablo »

Yeah lets make it Nazi übermensch doctrine like in the Axis vs. AI hordes days. Many people dont know that Germany actually would've won easily if they hadnt been abandoned by RNGeezuss in '42. [/sarcasm]

Red
Posts: 15
Joined: 05 Oct 2020, 12:40

Re: Worst Update since a long time

Post by Red »

I have to say that the Luftwaffe Doctrine actually is my current german favorite.

Currently in my eyes the only viable endgame tank for multi-production in the german arsenal is the Panther. At least from my gaming experience, it is quite superior to the Tiger I. This means basically narrows it down to the Blitzkrieg and Luftwaffe Doctrine.
Where I see the big advantage of Luftwaffe over Blitzkrieg is:
a) defense, where Luftwaffe has Quad 2cm emplacements and 8.8cm Emplacements.
b) regular "pioneer" infantry, where for me the Panzer Elite is much better than Wehrmacht pioneers.

Please note that I have yet to use the Paras extensively.
On the discussion about the Wirbelwind, I have noticed that when I upgrade the unit to explosive rounds and "equip" it, the explosive rounds sign on top of the unit disappears once I switch to another unit. So maybe there is a bug that the unit stops shooting explosive rounds and is therefore deemed inadequate?

Picking up on the PanzarFather's comment on the Pantherturm, I unfortunately have to agree. They used to be a solid anti tank defense, but now they are a waste of ressources. This for me is due to a number of reasons:
a) Cost are too high. You need to have an infantry inside to run it, so speaking just in terms of resources you need to add the cost of the infantry to the Pantherturm, making it way too expensive. (450 manpower & 45 fuel for a stationary defense that does not work on its own.) And even if the cost were lower, you have to use the barracks production capability and then bring the infantry to whereever your Pantherturm is. The time that takes (not only to move it there, but also in terms of the barracks production line being blocked) as well as the possibility of the infantry getting killed in the open on the way makes this really unattractive. => For me a possible solution would be for the Pantherturm to already come with a Grenadier squad inside.
b) Infantry protection of the Pantherturm sucks. Again this is from my limited experience, but even in the "old" days I rather built an entrenchment right beside the Pantherturm than using the turret to house infantry. => For me a possible solution would be to give infantry in the emplacement the same protection as in a trench, but with added protection against mortars and artillery (as it has a concret ceiling).
c) Machine guns and Pantherturms don't match. When I have an MG42 enter a Pantherturm, it seems to set up randomly to look out any of the three sides (front, left, right); and then it does stay there, even if there is infantry approaching from another side. This is especially frustrating, if it sets up to the left or right, and the front arch of the Patherturm is not covered. According to my experience, even if you exit the MG42 and have them re-enter they will set up to the same side. => For me a possible solution would be to have them by default set up the MG in the front arch, and then include the possibility to switch to a side (and back) if infantry approaches from another direction, similar to when an MG is set up in a house.
d) The targeting infantry dilemma. This is something I have observed in general, but it also comes into play here. When a hostile infantry attacks, there are often soldiers advancing while others hang back. I have the impression, that own units like to target the soldiers hanging back while not focussing on the ones advancing. In the case of the Pantherturm, this is especially anoying when the ones advancing have flamethrowers, run over an open field, but the own infantry inside the Pantherturm is shooting at the ones hanging back instead of the most imminent threat. (Similar situations also occur with tanks and soldiers equipped with AT weapons.) => For me a possible solution would be to have priority targeting of individuals in hostile infantry squads, meaning the ones with the most dangerous weapon closest to the own unit are targeted first, and this is checked regualrly, meaning targets can switch.
e) It can be used against me. Whoever has infantry in the Pantherturm controlls it. => For me a possible solution would be to have something similar to artillery, where only players with the respective doctrine can use the captured equipment.

Please note that especially the first couple of points might also apply to "regular" bunkers; I have very limited experience with them.

Of course, the easiest solution to implement probably would be to just have it run on it's own again.

Lastly, I would like to take this opportunity for an additional observation on the Wehrmacht Defense doctrine:
I do not understand, why the implementation of the Panzer IV/70 (A) does not include the coaxial MG42 the real version had. This leaves it without any anti infantry capability, which for third tier tank (one other tank has to be activated before this one can be activated and built) with non-negligable costs also in terms of ressources in my eyes is inappropriate (besides the fact that it is historically inaccurate).

Happy to get other fellow players' views!

Mood
Posts: 50
Joined: 06 Dec 2014, 22:39

Re: Worst Update since a long time

Post by Mood »

Going to add a comment about the current Pantherthürm balance (but this also concerns def doc-bunkers).

I'm honestly curious how often other players bother building these nowadays (I never bother). Just like Red posted above, these concrete emplacements have received a massive nerf, because now you always have to add the infantry cost on top of the structure cost (which wasn't lowered enough for some odd reason).

So not only did they get nerfed, their cost actually increased due to requiring a garrison to function...

I'm also wondering how often the allied player bothers capturing a bunker or pantherthürm. My guess is that this almost never happens, which in turn makes the whole idea behind this pointless.

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CGarr
Posts: 546
Joined: 16 Apr 2018, 21:39

Re: Worst Update since a long time

Post by CGarr »

Mood wrote:
27 Jan 2021, 06:30
Going to add a comment about the current Pantherthürm balance (but this also concerns def doc-bunkers).

I'm honestly curious how often other players bother building these nowadays (I never bother). Just like Red posted above, these concrete emplacements have received a massive nerf, because now you always have to add the infantry cost on top of the structure cost (which wasn't lowered enough for some odd reason).

So not only did they get nerfed, their cost actually increased due to requiring a garrison to function...

I'm also wondering how often the allied player bothers capturing a bunker or pantherthürm. My guess is that this almost never happens, which in turn makes the whole idea behind this pointless.
I've done it almost every time I've seen one while playing as US, but I don't see people build them often, so that's not saying much. I'm speaking mainly of pantherturms, normal bunkers aren't very useful when captured because they face the wrong way but I think you can delete them if you capture them. They're really easy to clear for some reason, none of the concrete bunkers seem to offer very good protection to occupants. It doesn't seem to offer any more protection than putting them in some shitty wooden hut does. I feel like they should get some sort of compensatory buff or cost reduction, I don't generally build emplacements much but the pantherturm feels especially pointless.

Luft inf are fine, although elite inf in general should be made available earlier. See this thread: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4091

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