Daimler armored Car/Greyhound/Stuart vs Sdkfz 234

[Warhawks97]

Is they greyhound and Daimler scout vehicle ridiulous cheap or Puma with 20 mm (and the 20 m kwk vehicles in general) hilarious cheap. In every affect the vehicles with 20 mm kwk are better. They shred inf very fast (Daimler scout vehicle doesnt harm inf at all) and have a lot more armor (30 mm) which causes bounces sometimes from 37 mm canons of Greyhound and Stuart tanks whereas the 20 mm shreds booth with 4-6 shots usually even when those have skirts which cost furher 50 amm to upgrade (the Daimler died after 3 shots from 20 mm). Yet the 20 mm vehicles are a lot cheaper. Why? Thats all i want to know. Is it again "quality cheaper as quantity" just as it was with 57 mm vs 50 mm pak?

A Greyhound without skirts has litterally no armor and no chance to bounce of a 20 mm round and cost 35-60 mp and 5 fuel more!

and the daimler needs gun upgrade to be usuefull anyhow.

[Wake]

This is a problem that applies to almost every single light vehicle, that being most of them are useless.

The only light vehicles people regularly use are scout car, AT scout car, Puma, Greyhound, quad, stuart recce, and tetrarch. There's no reason to build anything else, even though these are just 6 of dozens of vehicles. Take all those silly halftracks for wehrmacht. Many of them cost more than a 20mm puma, but a puma does everything they can do, only better. The same goes for British light vehicles, which are useless. A Stuart Recce is better than them all.

But back to the main point of the thread, the Puma vs Greyhound is just silly, since both vehicles have the exact same role as a deadly early game light vehicle, only that the Greyhound is WORSE than the 20mm puma, but costs more. The Greyhound also comes out later than the Puma.

20mm Puma: 325 MP and 25 Fuel
M8 Greyhound: 360 MP and 30 Fuel

I also noticed that this thread is in the wrong section. It's in announcements, but it looks like it should be in balance/suggestions.

[V13dweller]

If this were to be nerfed, it would become unrealistic, as the 20mm cannons could penetrate around 49mm using AP rounds, and this was their role, recon, anti-infantry and fighting other recon vehicles.

Compared to the Men of War Series, those 20mm guns are underpowered by a massive margin, in that, a 20mm cannon can deal with Stuarts from the side, and even the front at the right range due to 35~ mm of armour, all other light vehicles, like T-70s, Greyhounds even Shermans if you aim for the lower hull under the tracks from the sides.

[Wake]

Well somehow we have to balance it. It is a fact though, that the 20mm Puma was better than the Greyhound in real life. Another fact though is that there were only about 500 of the sdkfz 234's built, while over 10,000 greyhounds were produced.

[Warhawks97]

i dont want to deny the power of the 20 mm canons and i simply love the 20 mm vehicles as they are currently (currently they are simply the only vehicles with a fair price). Just greyhound for 360/30 that has still no armor skirts and thus as weak as a normal HT is just not fair when 20 mm vehicles kills them with 4 shots for much cheaper price whereas greyhound sometimes bounces off from puma or need 3 pen hits with 37 mm canon.


@wake: not even 500. The 234 series vehicles should be a lot more doctrinal (234/1 and 2 BK doc, 234/3 Terror, 234/4 PE TH doc or luftwaffe) but anyway.

[Warhawks97]

I extended this topic and want to talk about several vehicles and their cost-performence ratio.

Note also that this is an issue of coaxial weapons as well.

Its a bit complicated now how to explain but i will try.


The problem i currently see is that some vehicles (and tanks) do suck so hard mainly because of "coaxial vs Top mounted MG".

To show this i will choose some vehicles:
1. Sdkfz 234/3: Stubby 75 mm, 1x MG42. Cost: 350/40 (Reward for sdkfz 234/2 with 50 mm)
2. Sdkfz 234/2: Long 50 mm canon, 1x Turret coaxial MG42. Cost: 370/40 (or 50)
3. M5 Stuart: 37 mm canon, 1x Hull M1919, 1x Turret coaxial M1919. Cost: 340/30 (or 35)


Ok whats wrong? The armament looks pretty equal, all have mgs and HE rounds so cost are ok actually.

See it? No? Ok i will explain:

When i just watched sukins stream ive seen him using the sdkfz 234/3. I thought that the MG is counted as coaxial MG as it is linked with the main canon but it is counted as Top mounted MG and thus a lot more deadly than the MGs of Sdkfz 234/2 or stuart or whatsoever. And JUST because of this little fact that two of these three vehicles have coaxial and tis one "Top mounted" the vehicle is so much better but costing the same as these or even less. The 50 mm has better penetration stats but cost more (HE rounds suck) but i would prefer the stubby 75 version as these has simply a much stronger MG (and better HE) and also able to kill any enemie vehicle just like the 234/2.



Same applys also to other units. Another sample here is the US 75 mm sherman vs CW 75 sherman. Booth cost the same but the US is so much better already just because it has a top mounted and not only coaxial.



So the coaxial MG´s are not only an issue when it comes to this "frontal rush tank" thing -which is mainly an Hendheld AT weapon problem- but it also decides which unit is usefull and which is crap (except tankbusters, there the gun matters but also coaxial in some cases: Jagdpanther, Comet, Firefly).In case of these vehicles which are filling a similiar role actually two of them are worse just because their MG´s are only coaxial and one "top mounted".



So either fix coaxial MG´s and/or drop cost of some units which have only coaxial but which should fill a role like their "brother" and counterpart units but which use Top mounted MG´s (Tankbusters can be excluded from cost changes as those balance is mainly based on armor and canon etc and not on anti inf capabilities. It would affect exclusively vehicles currently but also the CW sherman with 75 mm).



In this certain case i would suggest a cost drop for Sdkfz 234/2 with 50 mm kwk of like 20 or 30 MP less and at least 40 MP less for the M5 Stuart but also cost drops for brits M3 stuart (which is even worse than US M5 Stuart). But this just as first step.

and fix some HE rounds or buff some: Sdkfz 234/2, stuarts and also one or two Axis HT´s with 75 mm which HE´s seem to be useless).