I hate to complain so much, but me and FruitSV noticed this

[TANEBIRD]

We played 4 maps againsts 3 normal computers on high valley (or a simliar lanemap) as americans. Multiple doctrines, multiple different styles and multiple beginning strategies I guess? As US players EVERY. SINGLE. GAME. was a lost after 10-15minutes at best.

Now we boot up 2 blitzkreig doctrine germans under wehrmacht under unlock. We won the first try and it was sad how easy it was. No one really wants to admit that this doctrine might be just a little bit over powered. The 2 resource shift CP are extremely fucking usefull, especially when other doctrines have their dick in their hand regarding resource shortages sometimes. After 3 points on the right side, you can make basically shitty panzers 4s at the cost, time and less building bullshit than a regular sherman even on armor doctrine. A few more points and you have access to the STUG combo which is too much as it is sometimes. Basically the STUGs are cheap as it is, because of their tank destroying aspect I guess? Less armor and metal = less cost at the cost of maneuverability and vulnebility by themselves. However, once that panzer is added to the mix, the two become almost impossible to kill sometimes. Once the panzer J and H are unlocked it gets even worse. Also, these tanks ALL have got blitzkreig ability which INCREASES their mobility. We were able to cover one end of the map to the other in extremely fast time with little to no resistance.

Now, I enjoy playing the german side of it sometimes, because I find their tanks require less babysitting per se. But, with the ease that I've won this and multiple other maps as this doctrine, I have to say, it seems at least a little overpowered. Every other doctrine has a slight weak point at least. Aside, really, from not having many artillery choices here, theres almost none here. Once the Sturmtroopers it is over every time. The panther ace getting called in with 2 ranks of veterancy REALLY sucks on top of all this shit. It is even worse than the propaganda doctrine right now. It's got everything you really could want:

a. specific infantry that can hide with 2 STG44s. damn.
b. we've got anti infantry and anti tank EXTEMELY fucking cheap tanks
c. we've got some of the best of the german panzer 4 as it is
d. extremely flexible resource gathering skills
e. the already amazing panzer 4s get -25% time to create -25% resources to make and can be made earlier than the sherman.
f. an instant, let me reiterate, EVEN IT is relatively cheap compared to other callins PANTHER ACE with the ability to RAPID 2 shells almost instant, longe range shots, rapid firing position HE shells and probably more.

It just seems like too much. As Americans I am tired of getting my ass kicked NONSTOP by these tanks. They rule the goddamn battle field here and at some point in the game I personally believe it hits a TIP marker where the Germans become IMPOSSIBLE to stop.

[Walderschmidt]

Post a replay and I will help diagnose the issue.

I know this stuff is frustrating and when you get the point where you post stuff like this it’s best to take a quick break (a day or so) because when you’re amped up and mad it’s hard to see the individual pieces that drove you to this point.

Post the replay. I’ll look at it and then we can chat about soon after.

PS, Happy New Year’s buddy!

Wald

[Redgaarden]

I dont think a replay is necessary. This has been complained about quite often about the pz4 and stug spam.

I think the current way we're heading it's reducing the effective armor of these two units. The fuel transfer cost has been put behinde a big cp unlock so I dont think that is too big a problem.

The "Specific Infantry" that can hide is also behind a lot of cp's So I think they are fine.

The problem is the combination of good early game and good late game is the problem though. If we nerf the early game Axis will just go back to their old hide in base til big cats come out strategy. And if we nerf the late game which isn't really that gamebreaking compared to old axis tanks it doesn't really look like that big of a problem. Except for most allied tank dying in one shot to panthers and above tanks. And how easily they are spammed. But I seen a lot of game where Panther spam loses the game in the end.

So if you have any other suggestion other than reducing pz4/stug armor I would like to hear them.

[TANEBIRD]

Okay, I'm always for helping. Hear me out on this one, why dont we try making the supress ability for tanks a little less instant? This way units upon SEEING incoming tanks that have started to fan out might not be as fucked, as perhaps one or two units (again this is infantry) might be out of the cone of fire by then. It's probably realistic that they'd be able to supress so effectively, but turning aside a huge infantry rush (especially when theres heavy infantry involved insantly by pinning them all almost immediately makes some of these tanks a little too effective anti-infantry. Im not sure this will actually do anything here, but it's something that I notice (especially in bottleneck maps) leads to a "run up and retreat" style of gameplay that puts infantry companies at a huge disadvantage, especially in a 2v2 or 3v3 or 4v4 game where one player might be going entirely infantry and relying on other players for armor.

Also, I'm not sure this is really covered by this topic, but being able to one shot kill an anti-tank gun seems bad, realistic or not. I've had this happen on 37mm (which is a little more understandable) and 50mm and 76s even. Its just a huge slap in the face, but then again I probably used them wrong.

[Walderschmidt]

Please post the replay.

That way I can be sure I see the same thing as you saw, before I make comments.

Wald

[Krieger Blitzer]

We played 4 maps againsts 3 normal computers on high valley (or a simliar lanemap) as americans. Multiple doctrines, multiple different styles and multiple beginning strategies I guess? As US players EVERY. SINGLE. GAME. was a lost after 10-15minutes at best.

Now we boot up 2 blitzkreig doctrine germans under wehrmacht under unlock. We won the first try and it was sad how easy it was. No one really wants to admit that this doctrine might be just a little bit over powered. The 2 resource shift CP are extremely fucking usefull, especially when other doctrines have their dick in their hand regarding resource shortages sometimes. After 3 points on the right side, you can make basically shitty panzers 4s at the cost, time and less building bullshit than a regular sherman even on armor doctrine. A few more points and you have access to the STUG combo which is too much as it is sometimes. Basically the STUGs are cheap as it is, because of their tank destroying aspect I guess? Less armor and metal = less cost at the cost of maneuverability and vulnebility by themselves. However, once that panzer is added to the mix, the two become almost impossible to kill sometimes. Once the panzer J and H are unlocked it gets even worse. Also, these tanks ALL have got blitzkreig ability which INCREASES their mobility. We were able to cover one end of the map to the other in extremely fast time with little to no resistance.

Now, I enjoy playing the german side of it sometimes, because I find their tanks require less babysitting per se. But, with the ease that I've won this and multiple other maps as this doctrine, I have to say, it seems at least a little overpowered. Every other doctrine has a slight weak point at least. Aside, really, from not having many artillery choices here, theres almost none here. Once the Sturmtroopers it is over every time. The panther ace getting called in with 2 ranks of veterancy REALLY sucks on top of all this shit. It is even worse than the propaganda doctrine right now. It's got everything you really could want:

a. specific infantry that can hide with 2 STG44s. damn.
b. we've got anti infantry and anti tank EXTEMELY fucking cheap tanks
c. we've got some of the best of the german panzer 4 as it is
d. extremely flexible resource gathering skills
e. the already amazing panzer 4s get -25% time to create -25% resources to make and can be made earlier than the sherman.
f. an instant, let me reiterate, EVEN IT is relatively cheap compared to other callins PANTHER ACE with the ability to RAPID 2 shells almost instant, longe range shots, rapid firing position HE shells and probably more.

It just seems like too much. As Americans I am tired of getting my ass kicked NONSTOP by these tanks. They rule the goddamn battle field here and at some point in the game I personally believe it hits a TIP marker where the Germans become IMPOSSIBLE to stop.

Playing vs Ai ? Or something i missed?

If so.. balance can be discussed over PvP games only.

[kwok]

Agreed with Tiger. It's natural that axis AI will be harder than allied AI especially on smaller lane-focused maps (high valley being one of the most egregious) because of density of units. AI gets resource bonuses that wouldn't be available to players, so where you'd see many strong units from AI you'd usually see just a few against a human player. It's easier as axis because you can focus a strong unit on a lane and it's covered without being worried about getting flanked. In a human vs human scenario, you can't strong point as well because a human player first of all won't just throw units at you and feed vet. Put it this way, I can 1v2 expert AI on certain maps as allies but not axis. However, on other maps I can 1v2 expert AI as axis not allies. In general, the mod is much easier against AI as axis, but that is a useless skill when coming across another player who knows how to use tactics based on role of units instead of right click attack moving blobs of mixed units. Combined arms doesn't just mean throwing multiple kinds of units at a problem but matching the right type of unit against the right kind of problem.

[Walderschmidt]

I totally missed that this was against AI.

Wald

[TANEBIRD]

Yeah, I literally play nothing but PVP, not that I'm getting any good at it lately. Every once in a while though, my russian friend just wants to whallop the unholy dog shit out of some AI. I guess this makes sense. I'll be trying the new beta out pretty soon, and I'm sort of excited about the new changes to the 82nd. I hope they dont become more suitable againsts everything than the infiltration rangers or the regular rangers. I feel like infantry doctrine just... needs something else. I wont get into it here. As usual the speed that you guys come out with the changes and how generally bug free they are continues to blow my mind. Keep up the good work.