Luft doc

[mofetagalactica]

I would suggest to drop the price of gerbis down to 400mp from 450mp, they're not able to reinforce everywhere anymore, plus his mg34 still being weird placed.

Also a wider hitzone for luft strafe run would be nice having in mind current AB hitzone.

[crazzy501]

Also I will suggest allow Gebirgs to buy one more pack of scoped G43 instead of MG34. Like how AB 101s can take 3 packs of garands

[MarKr]

Luft straffe is not a mirror ability to AB straffe so differences are intended. It is also needed to consider the ability in the context of the entire doctrine, not just "ability vs ability".

101st isn't a mirror unit to Gebirgs. So the fact that one can do something doesn't mean the other must be able to do the same. With this logic we should give to 101st a pay-per-shot bazooka ability (Gebirgs have faust), should get defensive bonuses in cover with unlock (because Gebirgs have it), ability to lay mines and paradrop pack howitzers (just as gebirgs).

Also, 5x scoped G43 is a LOT stronger than 6xGarand.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I would say the LMG34 upgrade shouldn't be locked behind anything.

And the Wirbelwind needs a buff i guess, i used it recently and it was rubbish.. not even viable as AA unit.

[CGarr]

Luft straffe is not a mirror ability to AB straffe so differences are intended. It is also needed to consider the ability in the context of the entire doctrine, not just "ability vs ability".

101st isn't a mirror unit to Gebirgs. So the fact that one can do something doesn't mean the other must be able to do the same. With this logic we should give to 101st a pay-per-shot bazooka ability (Gebirgs have faust), should get defensive bonuses in cover with unlock (because Gebirgs have it), ability to lay mines and paradrop pack howitzers (just as gebirgs).

Also, 5x scoped G43 is a LOT stronger than 6xGarand.

Luft strafe would still be unique in that it has the 20mm, which if I understand correctly, functions like the henschell 75mm. Giving the MG's a wider area of effect would make that unlock a more attractive option, which would be nice as it is currently heavily overshadowed by the rest of the tree (at least IMO).

As for the 3rd G43 pack, I agree that "101st can do it" isn't a great reason (at least on its own), but I think from a gameplay perspective it'd also make sense. They're a really expensive inf unit, so having a little more flexibility on the loadout would be fair, and it's not introducing a new weapon, so I doubt it'd have a heavy impact on gameplay. Personally I would rather just see a cost drop for Gebirgs, as they aren't really worth their high price anymore. Their defensive or offensive stats could take a nerf to justify the price drop, but currently their role seems to heavily overlap with the SS squad. They are expensive enough that you probably don't want multiple running around, they no longer reinforce from the air, their loadout is limited to long range, and they lack the built in sniper.

In terms of role, they are fine as defensive unit meant to hold the line while fallschrimjagers harass, but they are too expensive (relative to their performance) to hold a wide front on their own. You're better off with a pgren squad and the SS squad (pgren to hold a trench or something until SS squad gets there) than 2 gebirgs in most scenarios. A cost drop would change this, and their performance is already incredibly good, so there is room to adjust without them turning into a weak unit. For those who might complain about "elite inf being too heavily nerfed", these cheaper gebirgs would probably still heavily outperform most allied inf and you could actually afford to get multiple, so it is an overall buff. The SS squad is always there if you really need a superman squad.

[mofetagalactica]

Luft straffe is not a mirror ability to AB straffe so differences are intended. It is also needed to consider the ability in the context of the entire doctrine, not just "ability vs ability".

101st isn't a mirror unit to Gebirgs. So the fact that one can do something doesn't mean the other must be able to do the same. With this logic we should give to 101st a pay-per-shot bazooka ability (Gebirgs have faust), should get defensive bonuses in cover with unlock (because Gebirgs have it), ability to lay mines and paradrop pack howitzers (just as gebirgs).

Also, 5x scoped G43 is a LOT stronger than 6xGarand.

Luft strafe would still be unique in that it has the 20mm, which if I understand correctly, functions like the henschell 75mm. Giving the MG's a wider area of effect would make that unlock a more attractive option, which would be nice as it is currently heavily overshadowed by the rest of the tree (at least IMO).

As for the 3rd G43 pack, I agree that "101st can do it" isn't a great reason (at least on its own), but I think from a gameplay perspective it'd also make sense. They're a really expensive inf unit, so having a little more flexibility on the loadout would be fair, and it's not introducing a new weapon, so I doubt it'd have a heavy impact on gameplay. Personally I would rather just see a cost drop for Gebirgs, as they aren't really worth their high price anymore. Their defensive or offensive stats could take a nerf to justify the price drop, but currently their role seems to heavily overlap with the SS squad. They are expensive enough that you probably don't want multiple running around, they no longer reinforce from the air, their loadout is limited to long range, and they lack the built in sniper.

In terms of role, they are fine as defensive unit meant to hold the line while fallschrimjagers harass, but they are too expensive (relative to their performance) to hold a wide front on their own. You're better off with a pgren squad and the SS squad (pgren to hold a trench or something until SS squad gets there) than 2 gebirgs in most scenarios. A cost drop would change this, and their performance is already incredibly good, so there is room to adjust without them turning into a weak unit. For those who might complain about "elite inf being too heavily nerfed", these cheaper gebirgs would probably still heavily outperform most allied inf and you could actually afford to get multiple, so it is an overall buff. The SS squad is always there if you really need a superman squad.

I wouldn't really recommend to anyone to use SS superman squads anymore with current performance of AB straffe run, some current infantry formations just bugs too much when retreating or while moving, mostly the "V" formation, wich sucks for combat they even get rid of that formation in recent COH2 patch adopting more irregular horizontal formations for infantry and circular for support weapons.

As for why their price drop, well there's no scense in making any of them when you have fallchs that are cheaper (now upgradables for long range combat g43) and can be reinforced from air.

as for gerbs, they're just long range unit with their mg34 unlock weirdly placed in the cp unlock tree even using this hability once unlocked cost a lot of ammo for a doctrine that is already very ammo ungry plus its more expensive than fallchs and can't reinforce from air anymore.

I would totally exchange or make the supply drop cheaper or either change it for 200 MP and grabbing your leig wich has ammo upkeep makes you even more ammo hungry, i would say that this is one of the docs that requires a shit ton of ammo to be able to use at least half of the available stuff lmao.

[Mantis]

Difference between AB and Luft docs is:

AB have munition for upgrade elite infantry and for air raids.
Luft have munition for upgrade elite infantry or air raids only.
Whirbel shoot half with blind ammunition.
Now i have fear for Fallschs full FG42 upgrade. You can be in cover for keep them more "safe", you can flee from battle, you can micro them well, but If full upgraded squad of Fallschs died from AB strafe for few munition, is it very OP attack and really bleeding for luft economy.
You must not make a mistake and lose them...

Luft need rework. Idea is good, but in command tree are nonsense unlocks like Leig or LMG for gebirgs.
Fallschs with MP40 from start and with low endurance sucks. Give us old fallschs back, keep only price of upgrades FG42.
Gebirgs for 450 mp are too inefficient, only for long range. They are very situnational.
I like all new air attacks from actual patch, but this is all.
Old gebirgs and fallschs was better.

[Warhawks97]

From the games ive seen so far i would say luft got better overall.

Yes, they are not durable rambos anymore like they used to be right from the start, but unlike in old version where the entire luft doc army was literally only a bunch of rambos, they now fight a lot more often with various support units such as Sdkfz 234/4, Panzer Iv´s, Wirbelwind and so on. And in late game they are afterall quite durable.

On top of that they got also more numerous and constantly harrassing you everywhere while in the past it was more like a "Fight against the Gods from Olymp" in giant clashes right in the middile of the map where a bunch of luft and gebi inf could hold their own against tanks, arty and infantry, fighting an heroic battle.



I agree on Gebis that could drop to 400 MP.

[Mantis]

they now fight a lot more often with various support units such as Sdkfz 234/4, Panzer Iv´s, Wirbelwind and so on. And in late game they are afterall quite durable.

Paradrop units are trained and equipped for behind enemy lines combat. They are elite units, not ordinary soldiers. But now Fallschs are ordinary unit with paradrop.


Wirbelwind? Anybody play it? Maybe dont play noob games)))

[Warhawks97]

they now fight a lot more often with various support units such as Sdkfz 234/4, Panzer Iv´s, Wirbelwind and so on. And in late game they are afterall quite durable.

Paradrop units are trained and equipped for behind enemy lines combat. They are elite units, not ordinary soldiers. But now Fallschs are ordinary unit with paradrop.

Annd they do exactly THIS NOW. Before it was too risky to spend 550 mp behind enemie lines. Now they keep dropping behind the lines and provide themselves with support weapons.

I cant remember a single game in old patches where anyone ever tried to deploy them behind the lines. And luft was the standard PE doc back then and i played daily.

Now they do it pretty much in every game at least once or twice and often quite successfull. You dont have to be durable to be deployed behind the lines. Just having the right equipment and capabilties to harrass your enemie and to interrupt supply chains.

Wirbelwind? Anybody play it? Maybe dont play noob games)))

Not noobs. Players like mencius (perhaps best Bk player atm) did spam them. You can currently spam them along with F2´s.

[CGarr]

With one set of FG42's they're competitive with all allied elite inf excluding maybe upgraded SAS. That doesn't mean they're better, that just means its 50/50. The risk is in the second FG42 investment, and the reward is negligible. Personally I'd rather see the first upgrade be 100 muni and just have it equip the whole squad with FG's. The second doesn't seem to make a huge difference, but then again I also use them super aggressively so the MP40's are probably putting in work.

I don't think I've ever seen someone spam wirbels in the new update, doing so is prob just asking to get swamped by 76 shermans.

[MarKr]

Personally I'd rather see the first upgrade be 100 muni and just have it equip the whole squad with FG's.

This would mean that one FG42 is only 25 ammo. Paying 25 ammo for such a weapon is really off when a single Bren costs 55 ammo and is nowhere near the level of effectiveness of FG42.

[CGarr]

Personally I'd rather see the first upgrade be 100 muni and just have it equip the whole squad with FG's.

This would mean that one FG42 is only 25 ammo. Paying 25 ammo for such a weapon is really off when a single Bren costs 55 ammo and is nowhere near the level of effectiveness of FG42.

Ok, but you're not paying 25 for the upgrade, you're paying 100. The first set is enough to bring the squad from like mid tier to top tier because it allows them to fight at range, the second is pretty much redundant. Brens are free on rifle commandos but I don't see anyone complaining, both squads need CP upgrades to become top tier.

101st pays 50 for thompsons and those things melt inf, I think barracks rangers are the same. This isn't me saying said comparisons justify the change, I'm giving you equivalent comparisons that "prove" my point to show how said comparisons don't meant much.

[MarKr]

SMGs for 101st cost 50 ammo, you get 4 (iirc?) but they are only good at short range so upgrading the unit with them sets the unit for a specific combat role (applies to any SMG upgrade). G43s on Axis side shift the squad's effective combat range to "short-to-mid" (from Kar98 and their mid-to-long) so there is some trade-off in these upgrades. But the FG42 just makes the squad better at any range, keeps them viable for all sorts of combat roles and should be cheaper "per piece"?
BTW: Mantis complained about it because his Fallsh keep getting killed by US straffe - straffe's gonna get some tweaks and AA effectiveness is gonna go up significantly, so maybe the original reason for this discussion will be gone soon anyway.

LMGs usually provide good "DPS" boost but you pay per a single weapon, not a bundle. Free Bren for Commandos is there because the En-fields are in general lacking rifles compared to other rifles in the game and Commandos used to get the Brens automatically for free with an unlock in the past. It was actually the "Sten Commandos" who used to get the Brens but the loadout made little sense so the Brens were moved to Enfield Commandos, were turned into an upgrade option (in case a player wouldn't want the LMGs for whatever reason) and since the Brens used to be "given" for free, the upgrade still costs nothing. RAF wasn't touched during the reworks and we're gonna make some changes there, so this might change too.

[OttoVonBunkerstein]

Did anyone get that gebirs cant retreat to luftwafe commander? Well i have no problem with that, but hauptsturmfuehrer dont give em bonuses when near by, instead luftwafe commader does. Also if im going for gebirs early and i want the up abilites like supplies drop then I need a shitload of cp to unlock em. In amer tree its another separate branch. Thats pitty. Would love to get LeIG-18 earlier.

Another thing. Butterfly Bombs ability its just waste of space in corner unit menu when you can drop em anywhere by your HQ.

[Warhawks97]

Did anyone get that gebirs cant retreat to luftwafe commander? Well i have no problem with that, but hauptsturmfuehrer dont give em bonuses when near by, instead luftwafe commader does.

yes, i noticed it and mentioned it already.
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4021

[OttoVonBunkerstein]

I noticed, that luft pios are bit off blance. Or is there any reason why they have these stats?

1. 4x mp40 upgrade for 50 mun. Every other inf got 2x for 25 muni. Not a problem but if you already have some weapon on those pios, less mp40 are deployed

2. Theirs retreat point is set to HMF, not the luft one (as gebirs) ill be gratefull as Führer for Czechoslovakia if both get finally fixed O.o

3. Price to reinforce squad member and speed of it.
to compare
ˇˇˇˇˇˇˇˇˇˇ

AB engs
200mp 23mp for reinforce. fast speed reinforce (by fast i mean that one guy is not even on ground and second follows right behind him = as fast as animation of paradrop)
they can lay mines (at,ap) and build enplaced hmg, aslo quad is cheaper (dont know if it is better or not)
and you can get them right from the start - no cp unlock - that could be just mistake, but on high res you can drop ab spotters and establish AB HQ in building, so you can drop em from there without cp needed

Luft pios
300mp 35mp for reinforce. slow speed reinforce speed (same as other paradroped units)
buildable AA and flak, AT mine (could have AP mine after CP unlock like gebirs??)
no antipersonel mines, no hmg emplacemet also no mine sweeper. (could be handle)
they can buy mp40
advance repairs after upgrade in supply yard

101st AB
385mp 30mp for reinforce

Dont get me wrong, Im not trying make luft pios dirt cheap as amer ones, but there should be some logic chronology.
Just saying that i was living in misconception that luft pios are ment to be use as a crew for weapon drops. I was so wrong xD Rather should mount them with gebirs for the same price, more hp and faster reinforce

btw amer AB engs are awsome in combo with supply drops. Maybe the early acces to them and AB HQ in building is just off, or the reinforce speed should be as other parareinforcing units

Most of those points are not important. But cheaper reinforce cost somewhere below 101st would be vital. (about 25-28) Also the speed could be faster a bit, or let it be as it is and nerf the AB engs speed so it ll be the same as any other parareinforce squad. Third option is to put those para engs/pios rf speed somewhere between other paras and normal units. Make sence to me as they should be used for recrewing enplacements and weapons in the field.

One thing worth mentioning to luft doc. The system of droping hmgs, mortars and leig18 for munition, then you have to open the box and crew it. Its bit micro intense, but ok why not xD Muni cost, precious mun? Ill rather pay those weapon drops in fuel. if you use your luft pios to mount grab leig18 its 75mun +105mp and 6CP (someone can count the price of gebirs to it). Sometimes ill rather buy it with mp if i could, but sadly its the only way to it as luft doc

[mofetagalactica]

I noticed, that luft pios are bit off blance. Or is there any reason why they have these stats?

1. 4x mp40 upgrade for 50 mun. Every other inf got 2x for 25 muni. Not a problem but if you already have some weapon on those pios, less mp40 are deployed

2. Theirs retreat point is set to HMF, not the luft one (as gebirs) ill be gratefull as Führer for Czechoslovakia if both get finally fixed O.o

3. Price to reinforce squad member and speed of it.
to compare
ˇˇˇˇˇˇˇˇˇˇ

AB engs
200mp 23mp for reinforce. fast speed reinforce (by fast i mean that one guy is not even on ground and second follows right behind him = as fast as animation of paradrop)
they can lay mines (at,ap) and build enplaced hmg, aslo quad is cheaper (dont know if it is better or not)
and you can get them right from the start - no cp unlock - that could be just mistake, but on high res you can drop ab spotters and establish AB HQ in building, so you can drop em from there without cp needed

Luft pios
300mp 35mp for reinforce. slow speed reinforce speed (same as other paradroped units)
buildable AA and flak, AT mine (could have AP mine after CP unlock like gebirs??)
no antipersonel mines, no hmg emplacemet also no mine sweeper. (could be handle)
they can buy mp40
advance repairs after upgrade in supply yard

101st AB
385mp 30mp for reinforce

Dont get me wrong, Im not trying make luft pios dirt cheap as amer ones, but there should be some logic chronology.
Just saying that i was living in misconception that luft pios are ment to be use as a crew for weapon drops. I was so wrong xD Rather should mount them with gebirs for the same price, more hp and faster reinforce

btw amer AB engs are awsome in combo with supply drops. Maybe the early acces to them and AB HQ in building is just off, or the reinforce speed should be as other parareinforcing units

Most of those points are not important. But cheaper reinforce cost somewhere below 101st would be vital. (about 25-28) Also the speed could be faster a bit, or let it be as it is and nerf the AB engs speed so it ll be the same as any other parareinforce squad. Third option is to put those para engs/pios rf speed somewhere between other paras and normal units. Make sence to me as they should be used for recrewing enplacements and weapons in the field.

One thing worth mentioning to luft doc. The system of droping hmgs, mortars and leig18 for munition, then you have to open the box and crew it. Its bit micro intense, but ok why not xD Muni cost, precious mun? Ill rather pay those weapon drops in fuel. if you use your luft pios to mount grab leig18 its 75mun +105mp and 6CP (someone can count the price of gebirs to it). Sometimes ill rather buy it with mp if i could, but sadly its the only way to it as luft doc

Bump

[MEFISTO]

I would improve the access to the LeIG-18 Infantry Gun, It could be available on the Logistik Kompanie Upgrade after its upgrade, also make it available for Luftlande Pioneers or Fallschirmjaegers after weapon package CP unlock so it can be dropped as a weapon support anywhere on the map. Why I recommend this ? Luftwaffe strongly lacks on artillery and Fallschirmjaegers are not that strong no more to be dropped behind enemies line and destroy all defenses.
When you take a look to airborne they have a powerful 75mm M1A1 Pack Howitzer that can be deployed early in the game. I don’t see why luftwaffe can’t have this weapon easier accessible.

[Consti255]

All i would like to see is a change to the LeiG18 when it comes to costs and the drop itself.

i would highly welcome a change to it that it no more costs ammo to drop. Ammo is damn rare in this doc since you need to upgrade so much with it.
it could cost some ammo but not just 75ammo and thats it.

Aswell, i would like it to drop as a crew and not as a neutral weapon.
1. it Bugs out so often and you spend 75ammo for simply nothing.
2. The overall costs of this thing goes absolutely through the roof when you take the MP and CP costs into account to men this thing.

What i would do:

- set the costs to 300MP OR maybe even 100MP and 30F.
- Let it drop right away with a 3 men crew, which is able to reinforce via air.

this would not just make this unlock more attractive to get when it coms to economics, but also could bring up a justifycation for the high CP costs in a giga CP hungry doc.

[Redgaarden]

this would not just make this unlock more attractive to get when it coms to economics,

You should know that his unlock also reduced weapon costs down to 50 from 75 of all luft weapons right?

[Consti255]

Yes?
But it is still 2 CP. Which is a alot, it also comes after the FSR5 unlock, so you maybe dont even have Gebirgs unlocked yet to give this ability its full potential with the ammo decrease and the LeiG18 drop. 25ammo is nice to have and obviously the bigger part of this unlock, but still. Luft lacks arty (which it should dont get me wrong) but the reduced weapon cost are often just a "nice to have" unlock. And aslong you wont go for planes, you have enough ammo to spend on your infantry.

Anyway, it would just be a quality of life change, paired with a reasonable price. Aswell, the reduction of the required micro would be welcome.

[mofetagalactica]

Maybe make some changes on luft pios so they're less combat effective but way cheaper as a way of using them to man these dropped support guns, and make the drops call ins instead of so micro intensive as dropping fallchs or gerbs + using drop in hability + having to call luft pios on them to man-them, i think most of the reasons no one uses this is because they dont want to use their best infantry to man support guns plus gerbs dosnt reinforce from everywere anymore so if you man a gun you have to retreat back to base.

[Redgaarden]

You can drop it in base and man them with panzer grenadiers. Way less micro that way.

I dont even know what luft pioneers can do. I dont know a single thing about them so I can't say anything on what they lack or need.

[Consti255]

You can drop it in base and man them with panzer grenadiers. Way less micro that way.

I dont even know what luft pioneers can do. I dont know a single thing about them so I can't say anything on what they lack or need.

well yeah, bnut than you could simply just make it a buildable unit?

Its intention is to be drop behind enemy lines or on friendly lines. If you just get it, to drop it in the base, this ability doesnt makes sense at all.