Airborne's a ruined doctrine

[Hetzer 1992]

Since AB is literally a RIP doctrine. I've decided to post games to prove AB's futile struggle against tanks. Feel free to upload your games as or against AB here.

[kwok]

I played a series of games against stuglife as AB. I think there's a skill diff between me and stug, so it wasnt a balance game to being with. But, the point is to show the amount of utility AB has comparative to other docs that forces players out of tank rushing. Hope that helps players get more creative in how to play as AB.

Overall I felt like i struggled just as much as my opponent did.

I mighit get some 2v2 plays soon.

[Hetzer 1992]

Here's a 1v1. AB won, but Panther came into my base, almost destroyed the supply yard, with two 82nd squads on the battlefield.

[kwok]

hetzer are you online right now? come 2v2 with us.

[Hetzer 1992]

I played a series of games against stuglife as AB. I think there's a skill diff between me and stug, so it wasnt a balance game to being with. But, the point is to show the amount of utility AB has comparative to other docs that forces players out of tank rushing. Hope that helps players get more creative in how to play as AB.

I mighit get some 2v2 plays soon.

I would suggest you to play a game as AB against a player of your skill and experience. A good player with an M10 can take out a KT! Skill is one thing, a doctrine's overall weakness another.

[kwok]

I feel like the replays you posted are proving more on how strong AB is instead of how weak they are....

My analysis on the first game is pretty plain and simple... I think you know it too... Your teammates failed you. YOU alone did very very well. You held off against tanks, held your side, put pressure on 2 players alone. You lost that plainly because your teammates gave the opponents double high fuel income. I stopped watching after a while because double armor doc with no fuel is just like watching baby chickens get culled.
My suggestion for you that game is to think more broadly on whether it was really so important to hold your side. Even if your teammates suck, it doesn't mean you can't win. It would be very very very very hard... but the new strategy would be to ensure your teammates get the fuel they needed so they can come back in the game to being useful. Continuing to hold low value points for the sake of "your side" is not as helpful as dropping strikes and bombs on your teammate's side so they can secure fuel and work up to 90mm guns.

The second 1v1 replay was just another great example of AB being able to come back even against a tank spam. You did well... It didn't seem like to me you were so much better than your opponent that you deserved a landslide win. It looked like a game that went back and forth for a while of somewhat equal skill. Eventually the coin flipped to your side as soon as you built out your full airstrike CP unlocks, thus trading your munitions to put continuous pressure on his manpower and fuel. Nonetheless, a couple of things I think might help you improve and maybe make you feel less helpless as airborne.

I think you need to learn how to get to the end game. You're really good at controlling the early to late game. You really can end the game much earlier than you think so you dont even need to worry about panthers. You focus so much on killing everything in front of you and keep building to kill what you've already killed. Instead you should trust that you have everything you need to kill whatever he will build next and start working on finishing off your opponent. The most common way for the US faction to end a game is with HE shermans to quickly destroy a base. You had more than enough fuel to get a tank depot early enough. An area I would've changed for you was instead of going 82nd, just start unlocking airstrikes and save the MP for tanks. The 82nd didn't really help you that much in that game. The map is too open, the smgs and bazookas dont help as much as your sniper, mgs, and AT guns. Just because you are AB doc doesn't mean you should ALWAYS rush paratroopers. Play to the situation and adapt the strategy.

A second way to end the game the "paratrooper route" is to actually use the 82nd to satchel the base. Try checking out my first 1v1 against stuglife. I have a bunch of older replays where I show how to invade a base with just airborne infantry. It's one of my favorite tactics. Unforunately I dont think those will work anymore because of the patch so maybe i'll get more in the future. For now, that 1v1 I had with stuglife is the closest example.

Judging by the replays, you looked like you were fine... The point of the reworks isn't meant to have a doctrine be able to dominate over another doctrine. In fact it's the opposite... Maybe in the past AB was able to just completely stomp tank hunter doctrine because tank hunter doctrine was just for hunting tanks... Now tank hunter got reformed into panzer support which is much more well rounded, so naturally it will seem facing axis is so much harder. This is what happens when doctrines become less specialized and more well rounded, games will feel "tougher" because on average you will be facing another doctrine that's going to be able to handle you just as well as you handle them. At no point did I feel like you needed to feel desperate in your 1v1 game.

Anyways I'm still open to seeing more replays. Let me know how you feel about my comments though.

[Walderschmidt]

^I want moaaar.

Wald

[Hetzer 1992]

Thanks Kwok. The thing is, that player had the chance to finish me a lot more than I did. He just needed to get into my base with the panther and Panzer 3 and destroy the HQ.

I'm not a fan of doctrines becoming well-rounded as it'll lead to boredom in the long run. Doctrines should keep their unique tactics, that's why I've never been a fan of using tanks as AB r giving it Jacksons. That 1v1 was a good example; because my opponent was not a camper, neither did he know how to use his Panther when he had the chance.

I'm still a big supporter of giving AB sabotage points, had I had the skill I'd have paralyzed him much sooner.

I'll post more.

[kwok]

I think the same way he didn’t know how to use the panther, I’d say you didn’t know how to use the 82nd to end the game though. Smoke, fire up, early satchels, and forward reinforce is a really good combo to kill an opponent in the mid game.

I also think AB shouldn’t get the Jackson. I think most players feel this way so it’s likely not to happen.

For sabotage, I don’t know how that would help in this situation. I saw the thread on it, it didn’t seem like it had player consensus and devs at the moment didn’t really focus on digging into it. If you get more support from players with good reasons it might need to be included.

[mofetagalactica]

I think the same way he didn’t know how to use the panther, I’d say you didn’t know how to use the 82nd to end the game though. Smoke, fire up, early satchels, and forward reinforce is a really good combo to kill an opponent in the mid game.

I also think AB shouldn’t get the Jackson. I think most players feel this way so it’s likely not to happen.

For sabotage, I don’t know how that would help in this situation. I saw the thread on it, it didn’t seem like it had player consensus and devs at the moment didn’t really focus on digging into it. If you get more support from players with good reasons it might need to be included.

Jacksons would only be good the day that they get the same range than panther anyway.

But talk for yourself, "most players" can be a very false statement

[Hetzer 1992]

The main reason behind my proposal for sabotaging points is that, It brings more depth to the behind-the-line paratrooper operations.

I've seen Luft paras dropping at a corner, sabotaging vital points and using camo to keep the opponent supply line disrupted. And the very strategy has proven to change the fate of games because:

1. It deprives the opponent of vital points.
2. It brings the opponents' offensive to a halt or delays it.
3. It bleeds the opponents due to camo.
4. It finishes the game if done properly.

I remember a 3v3 on Hill 112 map, we were close to the opponents bases, 2 Faljs squads sabotaged all the points behind the lines and killed any infantry approaching them. We lost a game despite being in their base!

[MarKr]

I'm still a big supporter of giving AB sabotage points, had I had the skill I'd have paralyzed him much sooner.

If I get this right, you feel that AB doesn't have reliable counters to Axis heavy tanks and once those tanks get to the field, you feel "paralized" or "there's nothing you can do". If we give to AB this ability and you use it to "paralize" the opponent, won't it just lead to axis players coming here, saying that they feel paralized when playing against AB and demand some AB nerf/Axis buff? Basically this topic from Axis perspective.

I am not saying that AB cannot get the sabotage ability, I'm just wondering if it won't just turn the tables.

[Warhawks97]

Camo and sabotage is what makes luftwaffe as an "behind enemie lines" force so much better compared to AB. Its not so much its combat stats as such.

However, i am not a friend of sabotage at all or not the way its currently working. I am afraid to see future games just with Luft/SE/AB and perhaps SAS sabotaging each other to death.

[kwok]

But talk for yourself, "most players" can be a very false statement

Eh. I'm basing off of this forum posts:
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3866

it seemed like only tiger wanted jacksons in AB doc.

[Hetzer 1992]

It's an advantage Luft and RAF possess. The nature of these doctrines is the same, yet some have the privilage over other.

[mofetagalactica]

But talk for yourself, "most players" can be a very false statement

Eh. I'm basing off of this forum posts:
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3866

it seemed like only tiger wanted jacksons in AB doc.

Pretty bad base actually since the only one that said anything againts jacksons was warhawks, everyone else seems that were providing some other changes but no one actually said that was againts jacksons.

The day that AA' performance finally get fixed maybe we will see how bad this doc can actually be without their planes always drooping his load regarding coming from enemy base side, or around 2 ostwinds (wich are limited lol)

[Hetzer 1992]

Here's another game. A 3v3, in which airborne got quite useless when AA was used by the opponent. Apart from that, the armor doctrine is quite lacking as well. 1 SP against Tiger Aces, Panthers, Elephants and Luft Hensc. You lose it, you pretty much lose the game.

By the way, there seems to be a bug that immobilized tanks keep moving forward and you have no control on them. In this game my SP got weirdly immobilized and kept moving forward and that's how the game was lost.

[Hetzer 1992]

A good example to prove sabotaging points and camouflage is an important factor. Oddly enough Luft was against AB and AB lost squads and scout cars to camo.

temp.rec

3v3 - Luftwaffe camo + sabotage

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[PanzarFather]

American Airborne is problebly the best American doctrine in my opinion. It shreds heavy axis tanks like KingTiger and JagdTiger with just an simple airstrike, and the reloadtime for these airstrikes is very quick. The rangers are tough to fight for axis and one Ranger 82-squad is in many times equal to a Panther. If the Panther have upgrades explosive-rounds, it has an advantage maybe, (depends on the terrain) but with out the explosive upgrades, definitivly equal.
I have gameplays showing how enemies with rangers just smash my and 4Fanatics panthers time and time again, no matter how much we try to fight these damn rangers.

I play allies now, most of the time, since I believe that allies have been made OP since the last update of 2020-11-06, but I am an inferior allies-player, especially when I play brittish. I haven't discovered how to be a fast and an aggressive player with brittish in early and mid-game, but I've seen good old allies-players who are very fast and aggressive with brittish in early game. So, just because I haven't enought experience with allies, especially not brittish, doesn't mean that they aren't good.
Same goes with AB, just because someone isn't good with it, doesn't mean that airborne is "litterly RIP".

[MEFISTO]

I am not agree to add sabotage to airborne doctrine, no WEHRMACHT doctrine have that ability only PE and CW and that is more than enough, about Jakson if you are thinking to add it, it shold be the camoufle version (the weakest) in case AA get buff, I don't think airborne is that weak I actually like it after the Strafing Run buff and the other changes.
This game was not that balance still you can see how Strafing Run counter heavy infantry and Opel Maultier with Panzerwerfer artillery using 101st Airborne Observation Squad 180mp to spot enemies artilley without using Air Reconnaissance (what I think it's not fair) to use this guys to target units anywhere on the map especially now when Strafing Run got buff, I think this guy should be able to drop in allies sectors, neutral sectors or enemies with no war fog.
Also the first Panther was easly destroyed buy an airstrike.

[Warhawks97]

It shreds heavy axis tanks like KingTiger and JagdTiger with just an simple airstrike,

This is funny. The "Ultimate measurment". If something can kill a JT, its OP, right.

If you havent noticed, the only thig AB is good against are Jagdtigers lmao and super heavy tanks in general.

and the reloadtime for these airstrikes is very quick.

Not quicker than any other airstrike.

The rangers are tough to fight for axis and one Ranger 82-squad is in many times equal to a Panther. If the Panther have upgrades explosive-rounds, it has an advantage maybe, (depends on the terrain) but with out the explosive upgrades, definitivly equal.

Really, you cant compare these units at all. But i would take a panther over a 82nd everytime unless its a very heavy urban map. But what advantage 82nd has over an panther?

Anyway, this is like comparing potatoes with apples.

I have gameplays showing how enemies with rangers just smash my and 4Fanatics panthers time and time again, no matter how much we try to fight these damn rangers.

And probably many others have lots of gameplays showing the exact opposite with single Panthers cleaning the entire floor with allied blood and steel.

I play allies now, most of the time, since I believe that allies have been made OP since the last update of 2020-11-06, but I am an inferior allies-player, especially when I play brittish. I haven't discovered how to be a fast and an aggressive player with brittish in early and mid-game, but I've seen good old allies-players who are very fast and aggressive with brittish in early game. So, just because I haven't enought experience with allies, especially not brittish, doesn't mean that they aren't good.

Pls, you bring it up everytime. You never play 99% of the time axis and now only allis because the patch from 6.11.2020 contained some sort magic trick that changed all values over night.


And brits? Dude, everyone says brits is crap and recently it was discovered that they start with lower MP income due to a mistake while their tec cost increased overall.

Brits is currently nothing more than the "Shield" of US forces. AT boys in the early game, 17 pdr in the late game.

I also dont have much experience (actually not at all) with brits currently. But from what i see its quite the opposite from what you apparently see.

Same goes with AB, just because someone isn't good with it, doesn't mean that airborne is "litterly RIP".

This "someone" seems to be the majority.

[PanzarFather]

This "someone" seems to be the majority.

I understand very well that you agree with Hetzer about this. And I think you are right that "the majority" would agree that axis is OP, but that is "the majority" on this forum. Many people who are not part of this forum tend to agree a lot with me about many things.
Through me, I problebly let half of the BK-communities voices be heard, that aren't heard so much on this forum.

It shreds heavy axis tanks like KingTiger and JagdTiger with just an simple airstrike,

This is funny. The "Ultimate measurment". If something can kill a JT, its OP, right.

If you havent noticed, the only thig AB is good against are Jagdtigers lmao and super heavy tanks in general.

It shoots down Panthers, Jagdpanthers, Jagdtigers, Tigers, Tiger-ace, King Tiger, all kinds of heavy axis tanks. I don't see what the problem is.
It's not the "ultimate measurment" so you don't have to say that, it was just an example to point out that AB can counter axis tanks pretty good.
I see no point in being so disgustingly arrogant about it.

The rangers are tough to fight for axis and one Ranger 82-squad is in many times equal to a Panther. If the Panther have upgrades explosive-rounds, it has an advantage maybe, (depends on the terrain) but with out the explosive upgrades, definitivly equal.

Really, you cant compare these units at all. But i would take a panther over a 82nd everytime unless its a very heavy urban map. But what advantage 82nd has over an panther?

Anyway, this is like comparing potatoes with apples.

Panthers are pretty good, and my point is that AB has something equal to throw out in the field, and that is the rangers 82.

I have gameplays showing how enemies with rangers just smash my and 4Fanatics panthers time and time again, no matter how much we try to fight these damn rangers.

And probably many others have lots of gameplays showing the exact opposite with single Panthers cleaning the entire floor with allied blood and steel.

Sure.

I play allies now, most of the time, since I believe that allies have been made OP since the last update of 2020-11-06, but I am an inferior allies-player, especially when I play brittish. I haven't discovered how to be a fast and an aggressive player with brittish in early and mid-game, but I've seen good old allies-players who are very fast and aggressive with brittish in early game. So, just because I haven't enought experience with allies, especially not brittish, doesn't mean that they aren't good.

Pls, you bring it up everytime. You never play 99% of the time axis and now only allis because the patch from 6.11.2020 contained some sort magic trick that changed all values over night.

Yes, I want that point to be well known here, so that I don't have to have Mark or someone else like yourself replying something like:
"What do you even know about allies???? You don't even play them yourself, you only play axis so you don't even know what it is to play allies, come back when you have some experience with both factions."

And brits? Dude, everyone says brits is crap and recently it was discovered that they start with lower MP income due to a mistake while their tec cost increased overall.

Brits is currently nothing more than the "Shield" of US forces. AT boys in the early game, 17 pdr in the late game.

Again, I have seen expert players play britts and they know what to do. I think that when I get more experience with britts, I will win a lot of games. Adding more manpower will even make britts even better.
All my talk about britts is that I am not use to play with them and allies over all, but it doesn't mean that they aren't good. Same with AB.

[Warhawks97]

"half of the BK community". Any names? And just as many who share your opinion, there are probably as many others who shares the opinion of the others here. We will never know.


What i meant it that air docs are good in taking out slow super heavy tanks which are not designed to fight inf.
Basiclly all air docs are some sort of "anti super heavy tank" since most of them are designed to overpower enemie inf while struggling with inf/arty/airstrikes.




Panthers are mobile enough to escape most air strikes.


My point simly is that this argument is as old as BK itself: "It kills a heavy axis tank"... this unit/doc is good/OP. I mrsn really, idk how many times players popped up in forum because they lost their beloved heavy kitten and claiming that the stuff that killed it is OP. In the past (old forum) almost every second complain topic was about "My kitten got killed by....". Luckily, this kind of arguments became less and the debates now take more aspects of a doctrine or faction into consideration, not just 1% of the units available for that faction or doctrine.



Pretty much everyone here says that AB struggles with enemie tanks, esspecially medium tank spam and all that anti inf stuff and esspecially panthers as their armor resists 76 guns while also being mobile enough to kite ienemie nf and escape airstrikes.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I am not agree to add sabotage to airborne doctrine, no WEHRMACHT doctrine have that ability only PE and CW and that is more than enough, about Jakson if you are thinking to add it, it shold be the camoufle version (the weakest) in case AA get buff, I don't think airborne is that weak I actually like it after the Strafing Run buff and the other changes.

+1 from my side.

[Hetzer 1992]

I played a rather unbalanced 3v3 against 2 AB and 1 RAF. Since I'm not a particular side fanboy I've always tried to point out what I've seen in games.

In this game, whose playback will be posted soon, 2 Panzer 4s managed to break through the opponent's line and if I'd had my teammates' slightest support I could have cleared their lines which basically proves that AB has problem against medium armor.

On the other hand, I find the non-stop Airstrikes quite imbalanced in favor of AB, which simply puts enormous pressure on the opponents' manpower, ammo and fuel. I'd say boost the infantry and nerf the strikes, because in the very game our team had up to 8 AA stationed in our territory but they all got wrecked by air strikes eventually.

Although this game was quite unbalanced with 1 new player on my team and 3 Air doctrines, it's still representing the followings:

1. AB is vulnerable against medium armor.
2. AB ammo drop and air strikes are quite imbalanced and abusive, remember rocket jeeps in last patches?
3. SAS are now immortal no matter what you use on them.
4. Luft air strikes are quite weak. In this game Luft strike didn't kill an entire squad but I lost several squads to AB starfe.
5. AA are useless and a waste, no matter how many you get.
6. 101sts and 82nds are not combat or cost effective, more like cannon fodders. No successful use of them. The new changes has turned the AB inf into a fairly useless unit, HQ squad is just symbolic to be there.

AB is now a sit and bomb doctrine, no sign of the frequent use of micro for infantries or even HQ, no sign of smoke. The new patch dictates you to open the CP tree in only 1 particular way.

This post might sound a bit contradictory to my previous ones but it's what I've got playing as and against AB.

Here's the playback:

temp.rec

3v3

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