Armor Doctrine suggestion.

[MEFISTO]

1- Pershing should cost 7 cp ( now they come too late because we use cp in others line too; like to have artillery or make shermans cheaper)
2-Armor doctrine should have Jumbo 76 mm and cost 70 fuel, dont see a 75mm Jumbo in this doctrine because I can make (2) 75 shermans for cheaper and also use war machine to replace them.
3-As Armor doctrine it should be able to have the M36B1 Tank Destroyer (Sherman Chasis) - 700 MP/110 Fuel, it will give the Armor player a chance to have a reliable armor tank vs Panthers and Tigers rush and don't only go for pershings, with this change also armor players will be able to play differently, after have your M36b1 you can upgrade artillery path etc..

[mofetagalactica]

1- Pershing can mantain is CP cost, thats not the problem the US was never designed to have an easy to get heavy tank compared to panther.

2-You say that 2 shermans 75mm are better than a jumbo 75mm in a momment were axis dominate the medium tank phase with stugs and pzF, what would u do with both shermans? anti inf? thats 180 ammo plus you want to reeplace them with war machine? thats 380 ammo in total, isn't just cheaper to have a 75mm jumbo? So you can save ammo on AP rounds for pershings/jacksons and have 104% chance to pen panthers?

3-Im fine with the player having the choice to either get M36B1 or just normal M36.

[MEFISTO]

1- Pershing can mantain is CP cost, thats not the problem the US was never designed to have an easy to get heavy tank compared to panther.

2-You say that 2 shermans 75mm are better than a jumbo 75mm in a momment were axis dominate the medium tank phase with stugs and pzF, what would u do with both shermans? anti inf? thats 180 ammo plus you want to reeplace them with war machine? thats 380 ammo in total, isn't just cheaper to have a 75mm jumbo? So you can save ammo on AP rounds for pershings/jacksons and have 104% chance to pen panthers?

3-Im fine with the player having the choice to either get M36B1 or just normal M36.

Now for the same cp amount for a 75mm jumbo (6cp) I can have 75 mm shermans for cheaper, war machine and free minition upgrade, and again I don't see a 6cp 75mm jumbo (80 fuel) in armor doctrine.

[Warhawks97]

I see and always saw both jumbos in armor doctrine. I mean why not?

I would make it so that you unlock simply the jumbo and in game you can buy an upgrade that replaces the 75 mm with a 76 mm gun. So the next build jumbo comes out with a 76 gun and you wont be able to rebuild a 75 mm jumbo. So its a player choice to go for more anti tank or keep it anti inf.

But he wont get both to completely dominate (even though it wouldnt happen probably but most players would quickly complain about 75 jumbo and 76 jumbo).


Besides that not much would need a change i would say. If US gun/armor stats would finally be adjusted and the tec system, lots of issues would be solved by that already. No need to get an easy to have pershing anymore.

[MEFISTO]

I see and always saw both jumbos in armor doctrine. I mean why not?

I would make it so that you unlock simply the jumbo and in game you can buy an upgrade that replaces the 75 mm with a 76 mm gun. So the next build jumbo comes out with a 76 gun and you wont be able to rebuild a 75 mm jumbo. So its a player choice to go for more anti tank or keep it anti inf.

But he wont get both to completely dominate (even though it wouldnt happen probably but most players would quickly complain about 75 jumbo and 76 jumbo).


Besides that not much would need a change i would say. If US gun/armor stats would finally be adjusted and the tec system, lots of issues would be solved by that already. No need to get an easy to have pershing anymore.

+1 I like your idea.

[OrderLordTank]

Any chance for an armor doctrine CP layout change?I made the mistake of picking it again today and it iseems as lacklustre as ever.The moment you stay behind in fuel or ammo income you can never recover unless the enemy is braindead.I can't rush pershing ace (11 points vs 5 for tiger ace) so i need to invest 6 CPs more for calliope as my only fuel less tank.If you try to spam medium armor you need at least 3 points for cheap 76mm shermans while axis has cheaper f2s for free (45 fuel vs 40).Also that 30 fuel price tag for .50 cal unlock means 1 less 75mm sherman so you only get it after your third tank or so.Apart from vet combat engineers and recoilless jeeps the doctrine feels quite useless unless you are already wining in fuel + ammo income.At least panzer 3 armor stopped being god tier...

[Krieger Blitzer]

I support this wholeheartedly:

And it's 30 CPs in total as well, no mistake.

NOTE:
Must have to mention that this change should never be accompanied with any further nerf to Axis tank arsenal.
This means for example, no delay to Tiger ACE or further nerf to TDs or anything like that...

[kwok]

On that suggestion is there very a reason to get the jackson? 5 CP for something that can get 1-shotted versus 7CP for something that can absorb 2-3 hits AND unlocks a tank that can be durable with AT power seems like a no-brainer.

I think the whole point of having the 75mm Jumbo instead of the 76 is so that armor doc gets a light form of anti-inf/emplacement power without losing the path to the 90mm. The arty path is dedicated anti-inf/emplacmenet while the jackson path is AT. If the pershing path basically has no tradeoff then the rest of the doctrine is obsolete no matter how much you buff the other paths. It'll also not give any counter play for blitz doctrine or propaganda doctrine.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Jackson is absolutely fine at 5 CPs, it can serve as an early cheap counter vs 5/4 CP Tigers & Pz4.H as well.

Later in the game, jacksons are always the way to go after the SP is dead.. that's when jackson spam suddenly appears.

[MarKr]

NOTE:
Must have to mention that this change should never be accompanied with any further nerf to Axis tank arsenal.
This means for example, no delay to Tiger ACE or further nerf to TDs or anything like that...

In that case it's a no-go. Changes to ace availability are already coming.

Jackson is absolutely fine at 5 CPs, it can serve as an early cheap counter vs 5/4 CP Tigers & Pz4.H as well.

Later in the game, jacksons are always the way to go after the SP is dead.. that's when jackson spam suddenly appears.

So you would first go for Jacksons to counter PIV and early Tigers and only then for Pershing and SP? That puts your Pershings to 11CP and SP to 15CP from what I understand, the whole point of this change is to have Pershings available sooner.

Or you would first go for Pershing for 7CP and for the SP at the toal of 11CP and only then for Jacksons (as you said "jacksons are always the way to go after the SP is dead") but if you do this, then you cannot use the Jackson to counter early Tigers and PIVs.

It'll also not give any counter play for blitz doctrine or propaganda doctrine.

You also didn't address this part at all. Doctrines are not meant to hard-counter other doctrines (a.k.a "some other doctrines cannot effectively counter me"), so if any such change will lead to such outcome, it is an undesireable outcome.

[OrderLordTank]

I highly doubt tiger ace changes will level the CP field.After all its now 11 vs 5 for pershing vs tiger ace so a small CP increase wont make a huge difference.Further more the fuel income trade swap will make regular tigers more spammable and even though there is a limit of 2,normal pershings are 9 CPs or realistically 11 since you need cheaper shermans way earlier.And thats only if you decide to simply not waste another 6 points for calliope (again why is calliope so damn expensive CP wise when rocket jeep is so useless?).Finally 75mm jumbos come way too late @ 6 CPs to worth 80 fuel each,for just 10 more you get 2x76mm shermans if you spend 2 points for mass production (which you definitely should).I really want to see some 1v1 replays of armor doctrine wining a decent opponent.In my opinion comebacks without the 11 CP pershing ace call in are impossible and the only truly useful unlock in that path is the 76mm.Which in my opinion should be free for armor,i mean all axis doctrines get the cheaper f2 for free...

[mofetagalactica]

Just give jacksons same range than panthers and pershings.

[Krieger Blitzer]

NOTE:
Must have to mention that this change should never be accompanied with any further nerf to Axis tank arsenal.
This means for example, no delay to Tiger ACE or further nerf to TDs or anything like that...

In that case it's a no-go. Changes to ace availability are already coming.

Jackson is absolutely fine at 5 CPs, it can serve as an early cheap counter vs 5/4 CP Tigers & Pz4.H as well.

Later in the game, jacksons are always the way to go after the SP is dead.. that's when jackson spam suddenly appears.

So you would first go for Jacksons to counter PIV and early Tigers and only then for Pershing and SP? That puts your Pershings to 11CP and SP to 15CP from what I understand, the whole point of this change is to have Pershings available sooner.

Or you would first go for Pershing for 7CP and for the SP at the toal of 11CP and only then for Jacksons (as you said "jacksons are always the way to go after the SP is dead") but if you do this, then you cannot use the Jackson to counter early Tigers and PIVs.

It'll also not give any counter play for blitz doctrine or propaganda doctrine.

You also didn't address this part at all. Doctrines are not meant to hard-counter other doctrines (a.k.a "some other doctrines cannot effectively counter me"), so if any such change will lead to such outcome, it is an undesireable outcome.

I can see there was a new BETA update, can you inform me how much CPs the Tiger Ace currently require.. unable to check the game by myself now.

[MarKr]

[Krieger Blitzer]

Thx, fair enough then...

Regarding this Armor doc suggestion.. it could still work, despite i had first supported it mainly in the frame of not delaying/nerfing Axis counterparts.
So, now i would be more careful requesting to apply this proposal at all to say the least.

[OrderLordTank]

As i said even in beta there is still a huge gap CP wise between armor and propaganda.
2 CP for walking stuka vs 6 for calliope.
4 CP for tiger production vs 9 for pershing.
7 CP for tiger ace call in vs 11 for pershing ace.
You can even unlock king tiger production for 10 CP or 11 if you also want tiger ace prior to that.Meanwhile armor only has expensive 75mm jumbos (mass production doesn't affect them) in the same path which come way too late at 6 CP.
You may argue that propaganda needs stug unlock prior to that but p4 f2 can fill that gap,while if armor skips mass production he is doomed.A single 76mm sherman will cost just 15 less fuel than 2x p4 f2s.So you can add 2 more CPs for armor to the above comparison.Or if both sides spend the extra 2 CPs than fuel wise its almost 3x 76mm shermans vs 4x stugs.If you add the .50 cal unlock than it's exactly the same.And let's not forget that later on propaganda also gets to swap ammo for fuel which means that you will see a lot more panthers than pershings.

[mofetagalactica]

Give jackson same range than pershing please.

[kwok]

Question. Do people ever use the war machine ability? I don’t.

[OrderLordTank]

Well it's a lot of ammunition to spend on a single sherman and its a rare occasion to have all that ammo available while knowing beforehand that you will loose 2+ shermans within that short period of time.So in 1v1 the answer is never and even in team games it is very rare...

[Warhawks97]

Question. Do people ever use the war machine ability? I don’t.

I did, even before the armor rework. But not that often.

Right now it also boosts the production speed (it got merged with an unlock that speeded up production).



Thing is you spend 3 CP in total and you have only normal sherman. It didnt help much then when the enemie came already with Panzer IV´s. And the 76 came at a time when enemie got panthers. Using mass production was more or less just feeding the enemie.


It might be different now when people get used to the more upgunned shermans that can actually kill some stuff.


Later in combination with ammo upgrade it does makes fun. But often the games ended way earlier.



If ammo unlock would be some sort of WSC unlock so like it was done with inf weapon upgrades for inf and AB doc, it might would make the war machinery more appealing since both would be earlier available. But idk.

[Constantino]

I would like war machine to also increase fuel income during the duration of the ability. At times I feel like I can produce more tanks in Blitz doc, so the aforementioned change would be a nice way to use excess munition income as Armor Doc and would made the doc more useful on maps with less fuel income.

[Warhawks97]

I would like war machine to also increase fuel income during the duration of the ability. At times I feel like I can produce more tanks in Blitz doc, so the aforementioned change would be a nice way to use excess munition income as Armor Doc and would made the doc more useful on maps with less fuel income.

dude, thats awesome.

[Constantino]

I would like war machine to also increase fuel income during the duration of the ability. At times I feel like I can produce more tanks in Blitz doc, so the aforementioned change would be a nice way to use excess munition income as Armor Doc and would made the doc more useful on maps with less fuel income.

dude, thats awesome.

<3

[MarKr]

I would like war machine to also increase fuel income during the duration of the ability. At times I feel like I can produce more tanks in Blitz doc, so the aforementioned change would be a nice way to use excess munition income as Armor Doc and would made the doc more useful on maps with less fuel income.

Isn't this just axis "Fuel Trade" ability with extra steps? Also, if you use it the way it is intended (activation during offense to replace lost units), you'll get lost tanks back + the extra fuel, so 0 losses + fuel to build even more tanks, even those that wouldn't have been replaced by the ability under normal circumstances.

[Warhawks97]

The ability doesnt last a min a think. If the fuel boost would be just like +20, it wouldnt even give 20 fuel in total during this time.


What does the ability currently does exactly despite replacing certain stuff and speeding up production?

The only other thing i could think off would be that vehicles and tanks (except pershing) get a temporarily cost drop by 25% and more or less insta build time (5 seconds). Thus the ability would not only be usefull to replace stuff, but also to get stuff at all onto the field in emergency situations.

Or Ammo unlock gets merged into it as well?
Or the Sherman mass-production? So unlocking it boosts production speed and cost and when active replaces stuff (+ speeds production speed even further).