What's the point of Volksturm doc?

[F31.58]

1. This doctrine pretty much sucks on large-scale maps with lack of players to take every inch of map.
Why? Well, sturms seems to be slow at capping, retreat when lack 2 members ( on start) and very vulnerable specially in start of the game, when it has only 5 man squad. Any car with MG will be a death sentence to the sturms, when just on raiding behind enemy lines.
You say - get AT gun, but litteraly how can you put AT gun behind every volk squad, that goes out of cover? It means player will has to hold strong on one side of the map and having little to no chances to give pressure on another flank. And if once you failed to hold the focused objective, you will fail to re-take it since you have very low offensive capabilities.

2. Dependancy on officer squad. Yes, abilities are good, with support of the officer, they can beat off even elite allied squads, but the officer is limited to 1 squad and you cannot always afford it being near to your squads or just having enough time for the officer to move in. AoE ability is just something you cannot afford early on due its being a CP unlock.

3. Volksturms lack of being able to build defending structures. They are already too weak to fight even from yellow cover and the green cover is limited by the map. Means a doctrine depending on the map objects and sizes, that's a not really universal doctrine to play. Meaning that they should be played by defensive tactics and having no sandbags for example, is just not making sense at all.

4. Everything sums up here from points stated above:
Too much micro pressure. Just too much. Think about typical player, that not really that mastermind, who can control 7 infantry squads + vehicles at one time. Cover, constant reinforcments, retreats, careful observation for each unit, since it has little HP to not get it wiped by enemy easily, abilities that you HAS to use. This is comes at the concept, but failing at practise, when a doctrine gives no joy at all, than a stress, for players that cannot handle it.

Suggestions that I have to fix it:
1. Give them ability to build sandbags, wires, mines. This is not really much helps the micro, but anyway helps volksturms to be somewhat less dissapointing unit to play and to negotiate the specific maps downsides.

2. Make volksturms 6 man by default. Why not? It will increase effectiveness of squad, survability, more stable early game and just helps a bit of with micro pressure.

3. Make officer squad replenish faster. If the early-mid game relies on officer support, means loosing a squad member of officer or making a new squad, will be cause same damage and influence the game by lot, like it was with pzgrens before.

4. More cheap support weapons. Each squad of volksturm need more support, than any unit in this game.

5. Probably adding the AT rifle squad for more mobile support, as the reward unit.

[Redgaarden]

Ok.

2. Dependancy on officer squad. Yes, abilities are good, with support of the officer, they can beat off even elite allied squads, but the officer is limited to 1 squad and you cannot always afford it being near to your squads or just having enough time for the officer to move in. AoE ability is just something you cannot afford early on due its being a CP unlock.

Officer is not really that important. And the officer help will not make them less shit. Think of something else to use the officer for.

3. Volksturms lack of being able to build defending structures. They are already too weak to fight even from yellow cover and the green cover is limited by the map. Means a doctrine depending on the map objects and sizes, that's a not really universal doctrine to play. Meaning that they should be played by defensive tactics and having no sandbags for example, is just not making sense at all.

People only build sandbags early game where there aren't alot of tanks to bulldoze them all time. And I dont recommend getting volksturm early game due their small size and bad rifle.

4. Everything sums up here from points stated above:
Too much micro pressure. Just too much. Think about typical player, that not really that mastermind, who can control 7 infantry squads + vehicles at one time. Cover, constant reinforcments, retreats, careful observation for each unit, since it has little HP to not get it wiped by enemy easily, abilities that you HAS to use. This is comes at the concept, but failing at practise, when a doctrine gives no joy at all, than a stress, for players that cannot handle it.

They retreat by themselves which is pretty handy. And if you can't handle 7 of them just get 3 instead. will perform just as well. You can have the other 4 wait in base and use them when the other 3 are dead/retreated. And you dont have to be afraid of losing these squads, veterancy doesn't do anything for them, you dont have to invest any muni in them. And they are cheap, the perfect disposable squad.

I would say their strenght is that they all get free panzerfaust which is super good. More dmg than shercks. no time lag before it fires. And you can use it agasint everything, even enemy squads and HMG's

Suggestions that I have to fix it:
1. Give them ability to build sandbags, wires, mines. This is not really much helps the micro, but anyway helps volksturms to be somewhat less dissapointing unit to play and to negotiate the specific maps downsides.

In my opinion Sandbag and wire isn't that helpful and you have 2 other squads that can build them. Mines are quite rare in this game so I dont know why these cheap bastards should get them.

2. Make volksturms 6 man by default. Why not? It will increase effectiveness of squad, survability, more stable early game and just helps a bit of with micro pressure.

Would make them more useful early game but you already have volkgrens for that

3. Make officer squad replenish faster. If the early-mid game relies on officer support, means loosing a squad member of officer or making a new squad, will be cause same damage and influence the game by lot, like it was with pzgrens before.

Agreed, they take ages to replenish. I so often walk away with jsut 2 men in my squad.

4. More cheap support weapons. Each squad of volksturm need more support, than any unit in this game.

You need to clarify this this a bit more? more lmgs? HMGS? I think they would be a bit too strong if every suqad got a lmg.

[F31.58]

wait how officer is not important? 190mp squads need support even against basic squads like engineers and riflemen untill they rise a number or get the vet. the other thing is that they speeds up the veterancy gain and help by abilities to get it. anyway, this does not solve a problem of very weak early game.
having a sandbags anyway compensate the map's downsides or helping defending a point. how could they defend without a green cover? and I even would use it even in late game.
the problem is 190mp is still 190mp and loosing it, while your enemy is not, is just giving away your advantage. even loosing scout 160mp hurts, when you are low on mp.
and I don't really see the point of volkgrens when you have 4 CP unlocks dedicated for volksturm

[F31.58]

And again, bringing up favourite kwok's topic - big maps with enough space. Tell me, how it will be effective to use volksturm on a map with a good lenght and width, when your sturms squads are just constantly making a maraphon and running back and forward, just because they can't win a single early game firefight? Okay, even if you got that Officer, you will be limited only to one side, which agains, brings up to old topic - relying on holding one reinforced objective that could be a really big disadvantage if it fires back

[Mood]

And again, bringing up favourite kwok's topic - big maps with enough space. Tell me, how it will be effective to use volksturm on a map with a good lenght and width, when your sturms squads are just constantly making a maraphon and running back and forward, just because they can't win a single early game firefight? Okay, even if you got that Officer, you will be limited only to one side, which agains, brings up to old topic - relying on holding one reinforced objective that could be a really big disadvantage if it fires back

You can always use volkssturm on one side with officer and other infantry on other side?

[F31.58]

I just said that without officer you won't be able to rotate your squads fast enough to compensate sturms bad stats

[MarKr]

Storms are a spam unit, you always need to use numerical advantage against your enemies. If you have the same number of soldiers as the opponent, you will lose. If you have more, your chances of winning go rapidly up. This goes for infantry vs infantry. If your opponent supports his units with vehicles, you need to have your own supporting vehicles - the halftrack with 20mm cannon is pretty good support unit for Volks, as it can kill infantry, as well as light vehicles.

Once Walderschmidt is around, he can tell you more about it. He played a good amount of Propaganda doctrine during the beta and after some time he got very good with it and he himself started saying that Propaganda doc is sort of OP.

[F31.58]

Storms are a spam unit, you always need to use numerical advantage against your enemies. If you have the same number of soldiers as the opponent, you will lose. If you have more, your chances of winning go rapidly up. This goes for infantry vs infantry. If your opponent supports his units with vehicles, you need to have your own supporting vehicles - the halftrack with 20mm cannon is pretty good support unit for Volks, as it can kill infantry, as well as light vehicles.

Once mofeta is around, he can tell you more about it. He played a good amount of Propaganda doctrine during the beta and after some time he got very good with it and he himself started saying that Propaganda doc is sort of OP.

I did many beta games to in a while, but all of them was on a smaller maps, where prop doc shined and infantry didn't have to run across the map to run away in seconds. Anyway, even 20mm ht loosing to the armored or high cal jeeps if a player want to abuse speed on big maps and spam with those units. Any 50.cal on a vehicle can shred them in a seconds. That's too much of micro management to keep those units alive. The problem is mainly in not reinforcing them, but actually making the squad to survive, so you have not to build it again in barracks.
Can you please also explain why sturms are not being able to build simple sandbags, if they are being a strictly defensive troops on start of the game? Just like the volks.

[OrderLordTank]

They are so cheap that you can order a free single mg team for every 3 volksturm units your HQ produces.Although at start i would advise a single volksturm (just for capping) + 2 mgs.With just the first upgrade they are quite spammable as 6 man squads.In any case if you entrech them panzerfaust+mp40 upgrades make them a very cheap all round guard.At least now they must wait for the engineers to prepare defensive positions for them.I dont see any harm in letting them set only sandbags though.

[mofetagalactica]

Btw, i don't know if its a bug or not but since propaganda came around now every officer has the same hability that propaganda officer has (reduce moral) but with less range while prop officer has huge range to use it, is this intended?

[MarKr]

Yes, it is. The "force retreat" was concidered too brutal as it denied any decision to the opponent and the infantry just always fled.

As we plan to make Officers more doctrine-themed anyway, this ability might get replaced by something else in tze future.

[Mood]

Speaking of Propaganda doc, would it be possible to make triage centers for this doc create volkssturm instead of volksgrenadiers? Just an idea.

[mofetagalactica]

Yes, it is. The "force retreat" was concidered too brutal as it denied any decision to the opponent and the infantry just always fled.

As we plan to make Officers more doctrine-themed anyway, this ability might get replaced by something else in tze future.

For the time being you should give it more range to use it for every officer, current non-prop officer can only use it when the enemy is already at his face.

[MarKr]

Speaking of Propaganda doc, would it be possible to make triage centers for this doc create volkssturm instead of volksgrenadiers? Just an idea.

Unfortunately not possible. The squads that triage centers spawn are set for a faction in general. It is not possible to adjust it based on selected doctrine.

[Diablo]

Speaking of Propaganda doc, would it be possible to make triage centers for this doc create volkssturm instead of volksgrenadiers? Just an idea.

Unfortunately not possible. The squads that triage centers spawn are set for a faction in general. It is not possible to adjust it based on selected doctrine.

Maybe with a copy of the Triage center that replaces the WH one for Propaganda when choosing the doctrine?

[F31.58]

And right now cost of volksturms are same as riflemen of infantry doctrine and lowered price.
Same 190mp cost of squad, same 19mp cost of each soldier. Is this right concept, volksturm costing the same as riflemen, huh?

[OrderLordTank]

You cant compare a CP ability of the infantry doctrine which reduces its cost to the base volksturm price of a doctrine that can field 4 tigers and exchange ammo for fuel.

[F31.58]

You cant compare a CP ability of the infantry doctrine which reduces its cost to the base volksturm price of a doctrine that can field 4 tigers and exchange ammo for fuel.

Why I can't? Volksturm in the concept is a main infantry of this doctrine. How is the squad that should be played in masses, because it bad, when USF can play with masses and the quality just for 2cp ( and I remind you that 2cp is actually 10 minutes of the game). And tell me, do I get what, a Tiger just for paying 4cp or I actually need to survive up to tier4 with volksturms?

[OrderLordTank]

If you want to make such a comparison then terror with 2 CPs gets late version of stug IV.That's a 50 fuel AT with armor and gun that chews through more expensive 76mm shermans for breakfast.A couple of them can easily take out 4+ 76mm shermans that cost 3 times the fuel.Also their health,armor skirts and top mg makes them decent against infantry unlike allied ATs.See now what 2 CPs get you?I'd trade cheap rifles with that any day.BTW i got no problem with vulksturm setting only sandbags but comparing them with a 2 CPs price reduction for infantry (rings a bell?) doctrine is unreasonable.

[F31.58]

dude wtf, do you understand that there are no any advantages of playing volksturm early on? 30mp being cheapier just because they have 1 man less?
why do you even speak about stugs and whatever. if you won't buff sturms, they will suck and your infantry will do nothing much, if you rush stug, you pretty much risking to a ambushed M10. Last week ive been jerking off prop doctrine 1v1 and this is the worst doctrine to play it with it.
Stop changing topics!!! I can do it too, you know, talking about 165muni arty anywhere, camo rangers, stuarts with free HE, armored jeeps or .50 cals, just stop changing topics, early on there is nothing that can support against allies those volksturms, so you can survive up to stugs and whatever they rely in middle game

[Constantino]

The point of the Volkstrum doc is winning lol

I would like to see Strum start off as 6 men squads with maybe an upgrade to increase to 7. I'd also like to get the Panzer IV J in this doc so you don't just have to resort on Stug spam, but other than that, I think this is one of the best docs in the mod. Strum start weak, but you don't have to spam them at the start of a game before getting officers/upgrades; also, you still have Volks to use early on.

[Redgaarden]

If infantry doctrine got volksturm it would completely destroy all balance. Rushing two squads in spending 70 munitions to kill a tiger is kinda good wouldn't you say?
Volksturm get the best handheld anti tank there is. And it costs the same amount of cp as cheap rilfe squads.

I agree though that volks need a buff in the early game. Maybe let them start as 6 man squad? But I dont think their late game needs buffing. Otherwise they get an entire new role instead of anti-tank/Distracting frontline troop.

[OrderLordTank]

dude wtf, do you understand that there are no any advantages of playing volksturm early on? 30mp being cheapier just because they have 1 man less?
why do you even speak about stugs and whatever. if you won't buff sturms, they will suck and your infantry will do nothing much, if you rush stug, you pretty much risking to a ambushed M10. Last week ive been jerking off prop doctrine 1v1 and this is the worst doctrine to play it with it.
Stop changing topics!!! I can do it too, you know, talking about 165muni arty anywhere, camo rangers, stuarts with free HE, armored jeeps or .50 cals, just stop changing topics, early on there is nothing that can support against allies those volksturms, so you can survive up to stugs and whatever they rely in middle game

First of all a doctrine is judged by all of its powers you just cant have terror have cheap reliable infantry without CPs,whats the point of infantry doctrine then?Second of all you can use volks (thus not picking doctrine) prior to getting the CPs that are required for them to get better (I'd pick late stug IV but hey to each his own).Its not like infantry gets cheap rifles without CPs.

P.S.If you think new terror is the worst doctrine you should try new armor.Personally i now find it the strongest among the wehrmacht doctrines.

[F31.58]

dude wtf, do you understand that there are no any advantages of playing volksturm early on? 30mp being cheapier just because they have 1 man less?
why do you even speak about stugs and whatever. if you won't buff sturms, they will suck and your infantry will do nothing much, if you rush stug, you pretty much risking to a ambushed M10. Last week ive been jerking off prop doctrine 1v1 and this is the worst doctrine to play it with it.
Stop changing topics!!! I can do it too, you know, talking about 165muni arty anywhere, camo rangers, stuarts with free HE, armored jeeps or .50 cals, just stop changing topics, early on there is nothing that can support against allies those volksturms, so you can survive up to stugs and whatever they rely in middle game

First of all a doctrine is judged by all of its powers you just cant have terror have cheap reliable infantry without CPs,whats the point of infantry doctrine then?Second of all you can use volks (thus not picking doctrine) prior to getting the CPs that are required for them to get better (I'd pick late stug IV but hey to each his own).Its not like infantry gets cheap rifles without CPs.

P.S.If you think new terror is the worst doctrine you should try new armor.Personally i now find it the strongest among the wehrmacht doctrines.

well, I explained it before, you hardly survive on big maps with volks, or volksturms early on, to be able to build tiger or other heavy tanks, because you pretty much loosing on map control. Volk start is ok, but the problem is, that the blitz doc for example gets AT rifle squad and t2 halftrack with HE pak34 - those are best early units in Axis factions. Without them, early game still weak.
1. Make Sturms cheapier in recruitment cost and reinforcing.
2. Sandbags and wires, at least
3. 6 man squad by default (not nessecary if cost get cutted)
4. Tweaking the reinforce rate for Officer squad

please consider that on low res you won't get enough squads, considering that you need AT and other stuff. While on high res US can easily make double armored/.50cal jeep and abuse the speed on big maps versus your AT guns. Kwok's wet dream (joke ) became real, now US can easily spam with light vehicles with HE to abuse Prop doc weaknesses
edit: making the creation of squad time lower would help too for sturms