New update feedback

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Hey all! Came here after a long break in order to try out the refurnished BK mod. First of all, I'd like to thank the devs team for their work and desire to give a fresh breath to this legendary mod. Overall, I had a really good experience and balance seems to be pretty good for a fresh version. However, there are still some serious flaws in doc design that I would like to point out. I will try to keep in brief and reasoned.

US AIRBORNE

They basically received nothing but a bunch on nerfs, especially 101s:
- flame nades lost
- bar lost
- Johnson just 2 instead of 3 and doesn't fire on the move anymore.
- lowered recoilless damage

This essentially means that their offensive capabilities are around zero now, as they don't have powerful weapons that can shoot while moving and no phosphor grenades either. HQ squad that used to be cool and unique (zook + sniper) turned to basic officer squad, which is another big downgrade, as before they used to be a decent combat unit and could fight side to side with 101s and 82s. Add here an indirect inf nerf that happened due to the fact that any vehicle is very dangerous now due to deadly HE and buffed coaxial mg's (which is absolutely fine), absence of rocket jeep and we have a pretty much ruined doc.

Thunderbolt patrol that got replaced with a Rocket Run causes 3 problems
- why would you change something unique to a similar ability of RAF?
- without the patrol and with nerfed 101s doc doesnt have late game punch power anymore
- rocket strike is the only reliable counter against heavies and it takes how many points to unlock, 8?

Wrapping it up, I dont see any advantage of AB over RAF or Inf, that now have allegedly better infantry, better support abilities and bigger guns.

This is the only doc that failed entirely in my opinion. Considering that it worked perfectly before, idk why would you make something like this.

Other docs seem to be cool and fun to play. Bellow I will list minor issues.

- Luft FJ and Gebirgs must have lesser reinforcement cost. Too many nerfes for just 150mp economy. Their main problem was that it is difficult to build combined forces due to high reinforcement cost, in long games it is not solved just by dropping MP cost.
- Stormtroopers must be able to crawl right from the start. Why wouldn't they when RAF and Rangers can?
- Volkstrum...I didnt get this concept, they are just a cannon fodder. Would prefer to have something different in terms of the infantry for propaganda, buffed grens before were better
- Swap of Hotchkiss with Wespe is weird. Stuka rockets are better for supporting tank offenses. SE now misses early counter against arty. Plus why would they need hotchiss when there is a 210 nebel.

TO BE UPDATED

[Shanks]

I agree with you on almost everything, except for the air patrol, that should never come back, but I understand what you say, and you are right, the airb had a lot of nerf, and that new unit of propaganda doctrine is sad , the hotchkiss in SE is a shame, like the wespe in ts, now I'm tired because I just finished working, but I would like to discuss more about the points you talked about, I did not expect less a good bk mod player, old veteran, welcome back to bk

[MarKr]

The AB docrine hasn't seen many changes (same as RAF and RE) because these docs were considered relatively well fitted for 1v1 scenarios. There are still some changes coming for the doctrines but nothing in the sense of "rework" as it was done for TS, Propagand or BK doc.

Patrol was removed from AB (and Luft too) because it was a no-skill-click-to-kill ability.

- The comparison of Storms to RAF or Rangers isn't on spot here. For Rangers, only the infiltration squad can crawl from start, other Rangers can use ambush but cannot crawl at all, same goes for Commandos, where Marines can crawl but the rest of Commandos cannot.
The squads that can crawl by default are restricted in numbers and in general are a specialized version of Ranger or Commandos squad. So "normal" storms cannot crawl by default just as "normal" Commandos or Rangers cannot do so, the Specialized squad with default crawl is the Demolition storms squad. So the "default" crawling is somewhat consistent across the doctrines, the ability to make normal Storms crawl later with unlock is one of the things that elevates Storms above the other elite infantry.

- Most people who tried out the Propaganda doc and Volksturm had the same way of thinking as you here, but in time most of them started to say that Volksturms are sort of OP if you use them to their full potential.
The doctrine was changed to provide to Axis players something different than the usual "few units but strong" approach. Other doctrines gain advantage by improving their own units, this doctrine buffs its own units with unlocks to a certain degree but also nerfs enemy units. All the "Propaganda" abilities lower enemy accuracy, RoF, reload times and other stats. This allows you to lower the performance gap between enemy and your units. In terms of infantry, you can nerf the enemy infantry with the Propaganda abilities and then the cannon-fodder, as you call them, can face enemy infantry too. The Volksturms are very cheap to build and reinforce so you should always bring to a fight more squads than your opponent. If you outnumber your oponent and use the available abilities, both you and your opponent will be taking losses but your opponent will have to invest a lot more resources and time to recover his lost men.

As I said above - this doctrine tries to offer to Axis players a playstyle that is fundamentally different from other Axis doctrines. It is a micro-heavy, high skill, high reward doctrine. We expected that some people would complain about this doc and request some better infantry for it but then it would be pretty much same as the TS doc (strong tanks, strong infantry, good arty). I think Wald became pretty fond of Propaganda doctrine so you can ask him about the doc, he'll be able to give you more practical examples (possibly even replays or videos) of where the doc shines and how to play it effectively.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

@MarkR

Patrol was a kind of click to kill, but with removing it the doc should have received something in return. Now its just plain bad against any kind of armor, not to mention the absurd nerf of 101s (who came up with the idea to swap BAR upgrade to garands lol?). So far, all docs are pretty good, but AB is a real failure, it just got everything cut and got nothing in return.

Indeed, rangers and crawling commando are limited, BUT they come much much much earlier and thus can make a big impact. Whereas for BK it is a suicide mission to unlock the entire stormtroopers tree first, BK has changed and you cannot withstand the line only with inf, regardless of how good is your skill. A couple of ranger/commando with evasive maneveurs can turn the early and sometimes the mid game around. Storms get to this ability in a very late game, when it cant have much impact anymore. On the side of that, I see a kind of hypocrisy here. Remember that this ability was changed because people complained about OP early ability? Now allies are crawling around like storms used to, but storms still need a bunch of CP's to unlock that.

Some more remarks:
- Jackson in Inf doc is cool, but why is it so expensive? Almost double the cost of Achiles. In past it had lots of HP and better armor but now it seems that it gets blown up as easily as a normal Sherman.
- Regarding the arty in SE and PS. I think it would be cool if Hummel could go to Panzer support as call in and limited to one, fits perfectly as a heavy defence destroyer. In general, its such a cool unit, but its almost never in the games because its an overkill in SE doc and no one goes for it. Hotchkiss can become a reward for Walking Stuka in Propahanda doc.

[MarKr]

As I said - there are some more changes planned for the AB doc.

The 101st changes were a result of several factors.
1) the stock M1 Carbines got a similar treatment in RoF and accuracy as the M1 Garands of Riflemen. So now they shoot a lot faster but are fairly inaccurate at longer ranges.
2) BAR and Johnson had almost identical stats, except for Johnson having its maximum and minimum damage higher by 1. In this way the BAR had on average VERY slightly lower damage but 2xBAR gave you suppression ability, while Johnson with a slightly higher DPS gave no suppression ability. Given how extremely similar the weapon performance was (also costs were the same), the BAR was removed and the 101st kept only the Johnsons. In the end the 101st kept the weapon with slightly higher "DPS" and also got the Suppression ability with it.
3) M1 Garands of Rangers still have the old, slow Rate of Fire but are significantly more accurate than the M1 Garands of Riflemen and also have a chance to one-shot any hit soldier, no matter how much HP would the soldier normally have left. 101st upgrade gives the "Ranger Garand" so it allows to equip the squad for longer-range combat with either pure-Garand setup or a mix of Garands and Johnsons.

[Warhawks97]

Sukin brings up good points.

For ab the damage of rl rifle was lowered for no obvious reason.
A cool thing for ab would be to have shorter cooldowns on airplanes and thus having a bigger emphasis on airstrikes but in return lacking big tanks and guns.
Either lowered by default or via any kind of unlock.

As for Hotchkiss and Wespe/Hummel I tend to agree that Hummel might fit better in ts doc to be a single hard defense breaker while se maintains the "continued use of arty" with Wespe.

And Hotchkiss in propaganda doesn't sound super bad either to have a light supper tank for volksturm but less missiles in a barrage.

[mofetagalactica]

@MarkR

Patrol was a kind of click to kill, but with removing it the doc should have received something in return. Now its just plain bad against any kind of armor, not to mention the absurd nerf of 101s (who came up with the idea to swap BAR upgrade to garands lol?). So far, all docs are pretty good, but AB is a real failure, it just got everything cut and got nothing in return.

Indeed, rangers and crawling commando are limited, BUT they come much much much earlier and thus can make a big impact. Whereas for BK it is a suicide mission to unlock the entire stormtroopers tree first, BK has changed and you cannot withstand the line only with inf, regardless of how good is your skill. A couple of ranger/commando with evasive maneveurs can turn the early and sometimes the mid game around. Storms get to this ability in a very late game, when it cant have much impact anymore. On the side of that, I see a kind of hypocrisy here. Remember that this ability was changed because people complained about OP early ability? Now allies are crawling around like storms used to, but storms still need a bunch of CP's to unlock that.

Some more remarks:
- Jackson in Inf doc is cool, but why is it so expensive? Almost double the cost of Achiles. In past it had lots of HP and better armor but now it seems that it gets blown up as easily as a normal Sherman.
- Regarding the arty in SE and PS. I think it would be cool if Hummel could go to Panzer support as call in and limited to one, fits perfectly as a heavy defence destroyer. In general, its such a cool unit, but its almost never in the games because its an overkill in SE doc and no one goes for it. Hotchkiss can become a reward for Walking Stuka in Propahanda doc.

I'll give you some help with AB since i've played beta since it started:

-Avoid unlocking para's tree first, they're not good as starting unit, it has -10 HP per model than before ,phosporous where kind of OP since it got spammed everywhere, true they got nerfed a lot and didn't really receive any counter buff in terms of upgrade costs or reinforce/price, giving them passive cammo could be a nice touch/buff. Regarding the nerf to the recoiless yeah~ they're kinda bad in terms of damage but you can upgrade the squad with 2 of those wich makes the ROF a little big higher but at the sake of losing another gun, to get this upgrade press in the "+" and you should see it in the weapon upgrade UI, regarding bar im not sure they were used for parachuthing since it was a really heavy weapon.
Once they get all of the unlocks they do become a really strong unit tho, even more with para officer near. Kind of the same happens with Luft wich i wouldn't recommend anyone to start with para tree unlocks (unless its a 4v4 game and you can do silly things there).

-Rush CP unlocks for "supply drop", remember that hability that used to give you 100 ammo + some fuel? Well now not only the hability cost less to use but it gives you a fucking shit ton of ammo ( 100 + 100 ) for just 200 MP, spam that like crazy for unlimited ammo.

-After unlocking ammo supply drop go straight into straffing run, the hability was heavily buffed with default AP rounds wich destroys any heavily armored unit (Really really usefull againts PE) the hability also got fixed since it was kind of bugged 'cause one of the weapons of the straffing planes wasn't working, wich means that now it hits a lot more in his way.

-Upgrade your rifle squads with all the fucking upgrades you can bars/smgs/riflenades, spam their habilities without even bothering to ammo costs, since you get unlimited ammo thanks to supply drop.

-Use M8 greyhounds and try unlocking the 50cal upgrade as fast as you can, this unit is a must, it has high evasion, is very fast and if you make 2 of them you can even take out heavier tanks with good micro, spam mines everywhere with 2 of them on the field thanks to unlimited ammo, get around AT guns since they miss a lot againts M8's and they're usually able to survive 2 shoots if you upgrade them with armor thanks to armor_type.
Get around those AT's , tanks , mg's , mortar wathever and plant a mine close to them to blow them up or to set traps if the gun is empty ( really usefull if you didn't get the 50 cal upgrade yet ). At all stages of the game you have to use greyhounds. Not only as a fighting unit but as a distraction to use planes/ set traps / support your rifles againts heavier enemy inf.

-In case of going againts BK or a doc that have super early tanks like stugs/pz4 F, just pair your greyhounds with 1 57mm HT wich is super cheap, rush flank with the greyhounds ( don't worry if he gots you in the sight any stug / pz4F will usually miss ) once you got their flank/back they will try to put their front part infront of the greyhound since the 37mm of the M8 can pen almost any tank from behind and with the hability to plant mines close to them to inmobilize they will totally give priority to the M8, thats the momment when you have to get at range with the 57mm HT and shoot (remember to click on ambush as soon as you first shoot with it 'cause i think you still get insta bonuses even if it dosn't cammo).

-To reeplace rocket jeep you have 75mm howitzers in the motorpool by default now, with a really strong arty hability for a super cheap ammo price.

-Only get the para tree once you really feel like you need them, or after you made some big damage and are step up in the game.

So pretty much just use all of the ammo you have without fear, spam mines (very important), spam planes(very important), spam upgrades, always use greyhounds ( very important).

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INF:

Jackson B has been nerfed and it gor normal sherman armor now, yes you're right they kind of suck at their current price, Jacksons A (armor doc) got revised and are cheaper now. With this in mind, i recommend to just have 76mm Jumbo as reward.

- If the price of Jackson B isn't revised then i would totally recommend to the devs to get rid of the reward option and just be able to deploy jacksons and 76mm jumbos wich would make the jackson a little more usefull if you send the jumbo to receive some shoots first.
The problem of having to choose between jackson or jumbo is that if you pick jumbo as reward and the enemy gets a tiger/panther/jagdpanzerl70 (wich are really easy to get now and earlier available with propaganda/blitz/panzer support) you're pretty much done in terms of armor warfare even if you try spending more res on having more tanks, cause you will be limited to just 76mm guns.

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PE (Panzer support)

I always tought it was just better to move the hotchkiss to SE and give Grille to panzer support that is totally able to destroy any emplacement for a far range with accurate shoots but they went with Wespe instead wich is more of a big zone hiter artillery.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

As I said - there are some more changes planned for the AB doc.

The 101st changes were a result of several factors.
1) the stock M1 Carbines got a similar treatment in RoF and accuracy as the M1 Garands of Riflemen. So now they shoot a lot faster but are fairly inaccurate at longer ranges.
2) BAR and Johnson had almost identical stats, except for Johnson having its maximum and minimum damage higher by 1. In this way the BAR had on average VERY slightly lower damage but 2xBAR gave you suppression ability, while Johnson with a slightly higher DPS gave no suppression ability. Given how extremely similar the weapon performance was (also costs were the same), the BAR was removed and the 101st kept only the Johnsons. In the end the 101st kept the weapon with slightly higher "DPS" and also got the Suppression ability with it.
3) M1 Garands of Rangers still have the old, slow Rate of Fire but are significantly more accurate than the M1 Garands of Riflemen and also have a chance to one-shot any hit soldier, no matter how much HP would the soldier normally have left. 101st upgrade gives the "Ranger Garand" so it allows to equip the squad for longer-range combat with either pure-Garand setup or a mix of Garands and Johnsons.

"Bar and Johnson had almost identical stats"

Well...they had, but after Johnson cannot fire on the move anymore they are completely different weapons, and you took away both essential offensive guns. I would say there should be 3 upgrades: Johnson - which should be stronger than BAR, BAR which is weaker but fires on the move. Recoiless is super shit and never worth 65 ammo investment, can also be 2 of them in the weapon crate.

As for the Airstrikes, I think that at least the bomb run efficiency should be returned to what it was before. With 2 strong AT strikes doc can be played.

[Shanks]

@Mofeta.You gave a very good explanation, but you know that people who know how to play are not going to fall into the same m8 game twice, there are many cons that could make you (like an AT squadron with the stug or panzerkrieg), it makes sense what you say , but you also have to understand that someone who chooses doc airb wants to feel the power of the 101 and 82 airborne, did not know that you could have 200 ammunition with the airbone supply ... i did misunderstand? If true, I think it's great

[Mantis]

AB and Fallschs are strong in late game and with all unlocks they are beasts. Go more practice Sukin.