Tank Suport Artillery balance.

[MEFISTO]

After many games plying with my friends we are agree in one thing, TS artillery is too strong, first drawback about it: no need to play SE, since TS has a Wespe and it's cheaper to use than a Humel by far and comes earlier; also it becomes even more a threat to real artillery doctrines that use static artillery battery becaouse you can use the Wespe to destroy them and muve it to avoid the enemies artillery respond.This doctrine has the strongest armors in the game and excellent infantry no need to be that artillery strong as a real artillery doctrine is, and it get worst when you nerf SE to make it happend.
This are some options to make this doctrine more balance and improve SE againg if you have better idea please post it, to help Dev to make a better and balance mod

[kwok]

I just want to say that we will NOT move the Wespe back to SE. It is a structural change that we've locked for the near term future. We are open to the other options.

[MenciusMoldbug]

Tie the ability to arty with the Wespe to the Artillery P4 Tank (like a Mark Target, or Victor Target), so you can only artillery the frontlines with the Wespe. So either the barrage ability for the Wespe to fire anywhere is removed, OR it costs a lot of munitions to fire, as much as a hummel barrage or higher (I lean towards removing the ability for the Wespe to barrage anywhere and only have it barrage through the Artillery P4 Tank with a Mark/Victor Target). Should fix the problem entirely.

SE's only problem to me is the heavy ammunition carrier unlock comes earlier than the Hummel (meaning it doesn't affect anything unless you get a hummel after you unlock it), switch the ammunition carrier CP unlock and the hummel around and SE gets a Hummel as fast as Royal Artillery can get a Priest.

[Sparrow]

Absolutly not agree with those 2 Wespe...of course, those who vote for 2 Wespe in PS are wrong and they are not helping for the well balance match. A BETA tester should not think only in his doctrin, a gentleman think for everyone.
This unit will be moved to SE or finally limited to 1 Wespe...is just a matter of time for that result

[Beren]

For several months i dont join to any discussion about the beta, is want to say some change are good, but another like this proposal of keep 2 wespe in tank support in my opinión is not necessary, SE should be keep this units, diferents doctrines with diferent skill develop diferent estrategies, tank support is a strong doctrine focus in the heavy tankhunter with good infantry units and with the option of stuh 105 mm as artillery support with commander is enough, if the idea is give artillery support to all SE doctrines sending back the nebelwefer to the luftwaffe.

[panzeralcon]

leave the scorched earth with your wespe! Now it is a doctrine that nobody uses it, (I always used it) on top of which it was seldom chosen directly with the changes that were made to it nor do they choose it now!

[panzeralcon]

pd: come pinga

[MEFISTO]

Tie the ability to arty with the Wespe to the Artillery P4 Tank (like a Mark Target, or Victor Target), so you can only artillery the frontlines with the Wespe. So either the barrage ability for the Wespe to fire anywhere is removed, OR it costs a lot of munitions to fire, as much as a hummel barrage or higher (I lean towards removing the ability for the Wespe to barrage anywhere and only have it barrage through the Artillery P4 Tank with a Mark/Victor Target). Should fix the problem entirely.

SE's only problem to me is the heavy ammunition carrier unlock comes earlier than the Hummel (meaning it doesn't affect anything unless you get a hummel after you unlock it), switch the ammunition carrier CP unlock and the hummel around and SE gets a Hummel as fast as Royal Artillery can get a Priest.

The problem to move wespe to TS don’t only affect TS it also affect SE, before the Beta almost no body play SE after this change no body is going to play SE, a Hoskit is not a response to Allies artillery, Humel comes too late and use it cost too much, now give me a reason to play SE over TS and explain yourself.

[MEFISTO]

My favorite option is to give TS a commander artillery PIV and give TS 150mm nevelwuelfer and the ability to use All 150mm nevelwuelfer as artillery barrage when you have a tank commander in your tank.

[MenciusMoldbug]

Tie the ability to arty with the Wespe to the Artillery P4 Tank (like a Mark Target, or Victor Target), so you can only artillery the frontlines with the Wespe. So either the barrage ability for the Wespe to fire anywhere is removed, OR it costs a lot of munitions to fire, as much as a hummel barrage or higher (I lean towards removing the ability for the Wespe to barrage anywhere and only have it barrage through the Artillery P4 Tank with a Mark/Victor Target). Should fix the problem entirely.

SE's only problem to me is the heavy ammunition carrier unlock comes earlier than the Hummel (meaning it doesn't affect anything unless you get a hummel after you unlock it), switch the ammunition carrier CP unlock and the hummel around and SE gets a Hummel as fast as Royal Artillery can get a Priest.

The problem to move wespe to TS don’t only affect TS it also affect SE, before the Beta almost no body play SE after this change no body is going to play SE, a Hoskit is not a response to Allies artillery, Humel comes too late and use it cost too much, now give me a reason to play SE over TS and explain yourself.

Reasons to play SE from the top of my head:

* Incendiary Grenades
* Sector Artillery
* You get a sniper
* Nashorn is best AT, don't need anything else
* Sabotage Squads (though I'm kind of sad sabotage got nerfed so a engineer can repair a point in 2 seconds)
* You get all the mines, your vehicles can lay mines (just spam mines with vehicles, it is really strong if you rush it)

I just play SE to get a nashorn and P3 HE tank, I don't even bother getting artillery because you don't need it to win as SE (at least in smaller team games).

Like I said, let the hummel come earlier, after you unlock the hotchkiss rockets you can unlock the hummel.

Wespe should have no barrage ability of its own and should be required to be used with the Artillery Call-In Panzer 4 you get. So the Panzer 4 needs to mark targets for the Wespe to fire at, or use victor target to let them shoot at something. If that Panzer 4 dies, Wespe can't do anything.

By the way, if the Wespe does somehow get removed for nebelwerfers, instead of giving TS nebels just give the Artillery Panzer 4 the Firestorm ability from old Terror, it's pretty much what using the nebel victor target was anyway.

[Sparrow]

It looks like votation speaks by its selfe...

[kwok]

Well the most voted option isn’t going to happen. We are not moving the Wespe back on the release patch. I said this already. Feel free to revote knowing this info, otherwise no change will happen.

[Sparrow]

It will change with time...this votation will realise that previous votation were made without know the impact of this in the game

[kwok]

Ah okay. Thanks.

[MEFISTO]

Tie the ability to arty with the Wespe to the Artillery P4 Tank (like a Mark Target, or Victor Target), so you can only artillery the frontlines with the Wespe. So either the barrage ability for the Wespe to fire anywhere is removed, OR it costs a lot of munitions to fire, as much as a hummel barrage or higher (I lean towards removing the ability for the Wespe to barrage anywhere and only have it barrage through the Artillery P4 Tank with a Mark/Victor Target). Should fix the problem entirely.

SE's only problem to me is the heavy ammunition carrier unlock comes earlier than the Hummel (meaning it doesn't affect anything unless you get a hummel after you unlock it), switch the ammunition carrier CP unlock and the hummel around and SE gets a Hummel as fast as Royal Artillery can get a Priest.

The problem to move wespe to TS don’t only affect TS it also affect SE, before the Beta almost no body play SE after this change no body is going to play SE, a Hoskit is not a response to Allies artillery, Humel comes too late and use it cost too much, now give me a reason to play SE over TS and explain yourself.

Reasons to play SE from the top of my head:

* Incendiary Grenades
* Sector Artillery
* You get a sniper
* Nashorn is best AT, don't need anything else
* Sabotage Squads (though I'm kind of sad sabotage got nerfed so a engineer can repair a point in 2 seconds)
* You get all the mines, your vehicles can lay mines (just spam mines with vehicles, it is really strong if you rush it)

I just play SE to get a nashorn and P3 HE tank, I don't even bother getting artillery because you don't need it to win as SE (at least in smaller team games).

Like I said, let the hummel come earlier, after you unlock the hotchkiss rockets you can unlock the hummel.

Wespe should have no barrage ability of its own and should be required to be used with the Artillery Call-In Panzer 4 you get. So the Panzer 4 needs to mark targets for the Wespe to fire at, or use victor target to let them shoot at something. If that Panzer 4 dies, Wespe can't do anything.

By the way, if the Wespe does somehow get removed for nebelwerfers, instead of giving TS nebels just give the Artillery Panzer 4 the Firestorm ability from old Terror, it's pretty much what using the nebel victor target was anyway.

Those are not strong reasons or argument, why? Because as PS you can have elite infantry, Nashorn not even close as PS you have access to almost all heavy axis tanks including THs, the only think that could you make to choose SE is the artillery sector and the sniper because as PS is right now you can do everything, or you are telling me you are going to play SE to sabotage points? Omg bro.

[Dick Winters]

Of course, this is how the creators of the game decide regardless of the balance or the opinion of the community, always making the changes in favor of the Germans.

[MEFISTO]

I am going to make a new post guys with a new vote pool with the “real an actual options that we have to tray at least make some balance before beta comes to regular, you can post your idea if is not in the vote pool.

[Shanks]

Ah okay. Thanks.

you behave like an idiot kwok, if you want to remove me from the forum do it, I don't care,
the wespe never had to go to TS, if they had problems with the hotckiss they just had to modify their stupid AoE

[MEFISTO]

Ah okay. Thanks.

you behave like an idiot kwok, if you want to remove me from the forum do it, I don't care,
the wespe never had to go to TS, if they had problems with the hotckiss they just had to modify their stupid AoE

Keep calm bro, we are trying to make this mod a better game, we all have different opinions, we have to respect that even if we all are not agree, this is the place to express our idea to make it a better game, no need to be disrespectful.

[MenciusMoldbug]

The problem to move wespe to TS don’t only affect TS it also affect SE, before the Beta almost no body play SE after this change no body is going to play SE, a Hoskit is not a response to Allies artillery, Humel comes too late and use it cost too much, now give me a reason to play SE over TS and explain yourself.

Reasons to play SE from the top of my head:

* Incendiary Grenades
* Sector Artillery
* You get a sniper
* Nashorn is best AT, don't need anything else
* Sabotage Squads (though I'm kind of sad sabotage got nerfed so a engineer can repair a point in 2 seconds)
* You get all the mines, your vehicles can lay mines (just spam mines with vehicles, it is really strong if you rush it)

I just play SE to get a nashorn and P3 HE tank, I don't even bother getting artillery because you don't need it to win as SE (at least in smaller team games).

Like I said, let the hummel come earlier, after you unlock the hotchkiss rockets you can unlock the hummel.

Wespe should have no barrage ability of its own and should be required to be used with the Artillery Call-In Panzer 4 you get. So the Panzer 4 needs to mark targets for the Wespe to fire at, or use victor target to let them shoot at something. If that Panzer 4 dies, Wespe can't do anything.

By the way, if the Wespe does somehow get removed for nebelwerfers, instead of giving TS nebels just give the Artillery Panzer 4 the Firestorm ability from old Terror, it's pretty much what using the nebel victor target was anyway.

Those are not strong reasons or argument, why? Because as PS you can have elite infantry, Nashorn not even close as PS you have access to almost all heavy axis tanks including THs, the only think that could you make to choose SE is the artillery sector and the sniper because as PS is right now you can do everything, or you are telling me you are going to play SE to sabotage points? Omg bro.

Looking at the entire doctrine, TS offers you a bunch of tanks, aura buffed inf along with some more handheld AT, and wespes along with call-in artillery. Beyond that there's nothing else. If you want, we can try a 1v1 and I can show you exactly where TS starts falling apart. Though I do agree the Wespe should be at a limit of 1 but it wouldn't matter if it was 2 or 3 if it was necessary to use the Arty P4 with it.

Now, I assume you are talking about team games like 4v4, but is the problem there TS? Or the infinite repair bunkers, the infinite stug 4s sitting in ambush, and every other axis doctrine change coming to full bore and synergising with each other? If the problem is only TS, then 4 TS players should be able to easily beat anything, but this does not happen in a 4v4 because I tried it and it's just painful because you just get countered by a spam of snipers that you have no tools to push through.

Yes, I sometimes play SE just to sabotage a players fuel point so they have no way of recovering back into the game. I actually sometimes only played Luftwaffe for the sabotage even, It is the entire reason sabotage even got nerfed, because it ended the game within 15 minutes because you can't do anything if you are sitting at +4-5 fuel as Allies.

I have repeatedly played against TS and I just don't see it being broken to all hell, I know exactly what to do to counter the doctrine and my worst fears belongs with Wehrmacht and infinite stug 4 spam in ambush (with repair bunkers behind them) than whatever TS can do. My actual problem with TS is not even the Wespe now, it is how cheap you get the P4 H (and eventually J) for in terms of fuel.

I find it a bit funny that what CGarr and I said long time back about how PS should only have off-map artillery available to push through defenses is what everyone is finding themselves agreeing on. I didn't even think assault grenadiers (I even voted against it in that poll) were going to come back to PS so all my later suggested changes were built around that point. But since the changes are sort of locked-in, this is what we can do:

* Limit Wespe to 1
* Force Wespe to be used with Arty P4 (would be an over-nerf imo if you limit the Wespe to 1 as well)
* Make its barrage cost more
* Let Hummel arrive earlier in CP's
* Maybe make Hummel cheaper to fire (this is the strongest artillery piece in the game, I don't know if it should be cheap to fire...)
* Any other suggestions people have made that I haven't seen yet.

[MEFISTO]

Of course I was talking about team games where 2 wespe in “PS” doctrine non an Artillery support doctrine can become in a sit behind your THs and let’s do some artillery party and wait for the big cats to finish the game if you get bored hammering the enemy , I am agree at least it should be reduced to 1 wespe and maybe reduce its range a bit too, about combining the wespe with a PIV I think it’s too much nerf.

[ogrodeasalto]

At least we can give 1 hummel to panzer support and give back wespe's to SE

[Diablo]

It looks like votation speaks by its selfe...

An option to "change nothing" is missing.
It should be a rule that polls need a status quo option. If you dont allow that, you make it seem like changes are the only way to go, pushing your agenda.

Also having 2 slight variations each of your two solutions to a problem unnecessarily spreads votes. Its much better to have less, but meaningful options. Choose the fundamental concept first, then discuss details in the thread.

Would've voted "change nothing", had to choose "PS with 2 Wespes and Hummel barrage cost reduction".

[Mantis]

Maybe is it now without SE wespe more ballanced for 1v1, i dont know, but in in 3v3 is it one man show arty fest for SE oponents. With fast and low cost arty will be from your holded positions moon landscape very fast)

[Warhawks97]

So far i agree with mencius. The point is that people look at units and "raw stats" and suddenly a doc seems OP bc it has tons of super units but all for high cost and late availability.

The main issue in the entire Beta was mostly WH, not PE aside from super cheap luftwaffe spam in front and behind you that simply never ended and sometimes sabotaged your points.


It all comes actually down to what Mencius said and what was the most frustrating thing; Endless cheap Stug IV´s that came every early (often before CW could get its armor Truck and before US could get a 76 sherman) and super duper Tank IV "Mini Tigers" with magical armor.

And on Top of that: Very low fuel upkeep on german tanks which along with their very early availability, low initial build cost and overall low loss rate due to their magical armor made it easy to quickly gather a powerfull tank force that won the mid game and rushing quickly for heavier tanks bc your mid game tank force does not really drain your fuel income.




I agree that we should have taken the Stuh much earlier into consideration as a replacment for the Hotchkiss. I blame myself for that as well. But in my opinion there would have been no point in adding stuhs when you have only rifle infantry and no attack infantry anyway. And we got only told that Wespe would have been an option but not the assault grens bc it was said that inf was supposed to be its weak side.
If devs had not denied and opposed assault grens so strongly over the course of the debate and would have been open to either add Wespe or assault grens, i would have thought about stuhs as an option way earlier to support the assault infantry during the push.

Anyway, now we got both and we will see how it ends.

About unit limits:
I dont think that a limit of 1 wespe is needed. I would keep it at two first and would also increase the number of priest for inf doc to two as well.