( BETA) New Panzer Support OMG

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Mood
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Re: ( BETA) New Panzer Support OMG

Post by Mood »

I'd just like to add that this doctrine in its current form is extremely fuel reliant and lacks any unique manpower-only call-ins, fuel trades or tank fuel cost reductions (except for the crappiest early ones) - which is fine. I'd hardly call the doctrine "OP".

Blitzkriegrekrut
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Re: ( BETA) New Panzer Support OMG

Post by Blitzkriegrekrut »

Funny how the allied fanboys are crying here, lol :lol:
Better artillery (Wespe) and AA was urgently needed for tank hunter/support doctrin. It's fine now how it is.

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CGarr
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Re: ( BETA) New Panzer Support OMG

Post by CGarr »

Blitzkriegrekrut wrote:
08 Sep 2020, 13:34
Funny how the allied fanboys are crying here, lol :lol:
Better artillery (Wespe) and AA was urgently needed for tank hunter/support doctrin. It's fine now how it is.
AlLiEd FaNbOyS

Warhawks is (or at least was) the biggest alllied fanboy on the forum and even he defended having the wespe over the hotchkiss, along with myself and a few others who are generally lumped into that category even though we all play both factions pretty 50/50. Why throw shade at allied mains? The group that made this post and that were against the wespe replacing the hotchkiss play both teams 50/50 as well, they just didn't like the change.

Also, the wespe is objectively worse than the hotchkiss at pretty much everything but counter-arty, which is probably a large part of the reason they were swapped.

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Shanks
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Re: ( BETA) New Panzer Support OMG

Post by Shanks »

CGarr wrote:
10 Sep 2020, 19:57
Blitzkriegrekrut wrote:
08 Sep 2020, 13:34
Funny how the allied fanboys are crying here, lol :lol:
Better artillery (Wespe) and AA was urgently needed for tank hunter/support doctrin. It's fine now how it is.
AlLiEd FaNbOyS

Warhawks is (or at least was) the biggest alllied fanboy on the forum and even he defended having the wespe over the hotchkiss, along with myself and a few others who are generally lumped into that category even though we all play both factions pretty 50/50. Why throw shade at allied mains? The group that made this post and that were against the wespe replacing the hotchkiss play both teams 50/50 as well, they just didn't like the change.

Also, the wespe is objectively worse than the hotchkiss at pretty much everything but counter-arty, which is probably a large part of the reason they were swapped.

The hockiss is strong because they changed the AoE and they never put it right again, but you can destroy it with a priest more easily (it is slow) than a wespe, and the wespe is much stronger in general

The friend who talks about fanboy, has to know that I am an axis player, especially def doc, I know about artillery and impact in the game I have more than 1500 games at least bk

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CGarr
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Re: ( BETA) New Panzer Support OMG

Post by CGarr »

Shanks wrote:
11 Sep 2020, 18:22
The hockiss is strong because they changed the AoE and they never put it right again, but you can destroy it with a priest more easily (it is slow) than a wespe, and the wespe is much stronger in general

The friend who talks about fanboy, has to know that I am an axis player, especially def doc, I know about artillery and impact in the game I have more than 1500 games at least bk
I mean arty's effectiveness generally isn't measured by it's durability, and as someone who also has a good amount of BK experience, I can confidently say that the Hotchkiss is better in most use case. I specifically mentioned (in the post you quoted) that it is worse at counter arty than the wespe, so I'm not sure why you're bringing up it's performance against priests. In terms of general use, the hotchkiss fires it's salvo much faster, the rockets hit harder than 105mm shells, and their dispersion and blast radius give them a much larger AoE. Lets go over some example use cases as a means of comparison.

Offensive:

1. Firing on a fortified position: hotchkiss 1 wespe 0
- Given the larger total AoE of the rocket salvo, the hotchkiss can soften up a wider area. The hotchkiss salvo is also fast enough that the alllied player will have little to no time to react and move units out of the way, so you're more likely to actually hit whatever you're shooting at even if it isn't static.
- The wespe has a slight advantage against emplacements in that it will probably outright destroy one if you drop the barrage right on top of it, but unless the enemy player is clumping their units very tightly, it's probably not going to destroy much aside from that one emplacement. That being said, the hotchkiss will probably decrew the emplacement still on top of killing every inf unit around it, so this point is moot.

2. Firing on armored targets: hotchkiss 2 wespe 0
- Unless the target is immobilized, the wespe probably won't do much to armor since the allied player will have plenty of time to move. If you close in a bit with the hotchkiss to tighten the salvo dispersion, you can get similar effectiveness to that of a wespe barrage on a stationary tank.
- The hotchkiss just needs to land one rocket to do a very large amount of damage to most tanks. The faster salvo again means you're more likely to hit your target with a hotchkiss salvo than a wespe barrage, especially if it is moving.
- The larger rocket dispersion means you can hit multiple static tanks if you decide to fire at max range to harass, the wespe can only hit tightly grouped targets.

3. Counter-arty: hotchkiss 2 wespe 1
-No contest, the hothckiss can kill arty but the wespe is just objectively better for this due to it's longer range and ability to dodge.

Defensive:

1. Reactionary fire on an enemy advance: hotchkiss 3 wespe 1
- Hotchkiss faster salvo is crucial here, as the enemy is already actively microing their units since they're attacking, and they would much more easily be able to dodge the wespe's slow barrage.
- Rocket salvo dispersion means the hotchkiss can screen a larger area.
- Wespe barrage is longer so it can technically cut off an area for longer, but the high damage output and wipe potential of the hotchkiss will probably just outright halt an enemy advance or even kill the attacking units.

2. Drawing attention off of your own advancing troops: hotchkiss 4 wespe 1
- Rocket salvo's high wipe potential and larger AoE means the enemy player will have to spend more time regrouping and bringing replacement units to the front after a hotchkiss salvo than after a wepse barrage.
- For the hotchkiss, what originally might've been intended as a distraction can end up opening a large new gap in the enemy defense, meaning you now have a second area to attack if the first ends up being a bad option. This can happen with the wespe as well, but it is far less likely to.

As I said, hotchkiss is outright better in all use cases except counter arty. You don't use arty units as damage sponges (aside from maybe churchills), and if you're receiving counter arty fire from the enemy while playing SE, you still have the hummel. Personally, I think the wespe should be available for both doctrines and the hotchkiss should be SE exclusive, as the muni upkeep (if implemented correctly for these units) should be a deterrent to building both at the same time on SE.

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Shanks
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Re: ( BETA) New Panzer Support OMG

Post by Shanks »

CGarr wrote:
11 Sep 2020, 19:29
Shanks wrote:
11 Sep 2020, 18:22
The hockiss is strong because they changed the AoE and they never put it right again, but you can destroy it with a priest more easily (it is slow) than a wespe, and the wespe is much stronger in general

The friend who talks about fanboy, has to know that I am an axis player, especially def doc, I know about artillery and impact in the game I have more than 1500 games at least bk
I mean arty's effectiveness generally isn't measured by it's durability, and as someone who also has a good amount of BK experience, I can confidently say that the Hotchkiss is better in most use case. I specifically mentioned (in the post you quoted) that it is worse at counter arty than the wespe, so I'm not sure why you're bringing up it's performance against priests. In terms of general use, the hotchkiss fires it's salvo much faster, the rockets hit harder than 105mm shells, and their dispersion and blast radius give them a much larger AoE. Lets go over some example use cases as a means of comparison.

Offensive:

1. Firing on a fortified position: hotchkiss 1 wespe 0
- Given the larger total AoE of the rocket salvo, the hotchkiss can soften up a wider area. The hotchkiss salvo is also fast enough that the alllied player will have little to no time to react and move units out of the way, so you're more likely to actually hit whatever you're shooting at even if it isn't static.
- The wespe has a slight advantage against emplacements in that it will probably outright destroy one if you drop the barrage right on top of it, but unless the enemy player is clumping their units very tightly, it's probably not going to destroy much aside from that one emplacement. That being said, the hotchkiss will probably decrew the emplacement still on top of killing every inf unit around it, so this point is moot.

2. Firing on armored targets: hotchkiss 2 wespe 0
- Unless the target is immobilized, the wespe probably won't do much to armor since the allied player will have plenty of time to move. If you close in a bit with the hotchkiss to tighten the salvo dispersion, you can get similar effectiveness to that of a wespe barrage on a stationary tank.
- The hotchkiss just needs to land one rocket to do a very large amount of damage to most tanks. The faster salvo again means you're more likely to hit your target with a hotchkiss salvo than a wespe barrage, especially if it is moving.
- The larger rocket dispersion means you can hit multiple static tanks if you decide to fire at max range to harass, the wespe can only hit tightly grouped targets.

3. Counter-arty: hotchkiss 2 wespe 1
-No contest, the hothckiss can kill arty but the wespe is just objectively better for this due to it's longer range and ability to dodge.

Defensive:

1. Reactionary fire on an enemy advance: hotchkiss 3 wespe 1
- Hotchkiss faster salvo is crucial here, as the enemy is already actively microing their units since they're attacking, and they would much more easily be able to dodge the wespe's slow barrage.
- Rocket salvo dispersion means the hotchkiss can screen a larger area.
- Wespe barrage is longer so it can technically cut off an area for longer, but the high damage output and wipe potential of the hotchkiss will probably just outright halt an enemy advance or even kill the attacking units.

2. Drawing attention off of your own advancing troops: hotchkiss 4 wespe 1
- Rocket salvo's high wipe potential and larger AoE means the enemy player will have to spend more time regrouping and bringing replacement units to the front after a hotchkiss salvo than after a wepse barrage.
- For the hotchkiss, what originally might've been intended as a distraction can end up opening a large new gap in the enemy defense, meaning you now have a second area to attack if the first ends up being a bad option. This can happen with the wespe as well, but it is far less likely to.

As I said, hotchkiss is outright better in all use cases except counter arty. You don't use arty units as damage sponges (aside from maybe churchills), and if you're receiving counter arty fire from the enemy while playing SE, you still have the hummel. Personally, I think the wespe should be available for both doctrines and the hotchkiss should be SE exclusive, as the muni upkeep (if implemented correctly for these units) should be a deterrent to building both at the same time on SE.
I meant that I can destroy the wespe with a priest, and the hoctkiss more easily, and that a wespe is better than a hotckiss in that sense, and on the other hand that the hockiss is "OP" because they increased the AoE rank, if not I would have made that change, nobody would complain about the hoctkiss, so that you understand me better, I mean that the main problem with the hoctkiss is the AoE, if they decrease it there will no longer be OP hoctkiss and changes that leave the doctrines wrong or tend to to nerf a unit (example: wespe in ts), they only had to focus on modifying the AoE damage of the hoctkiss not on making changes that are not relevant

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CGarr
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Re: ( BETA) New Panzer Support OMG

Post by CGarr »

Shanks wrote:
13 Sep 2020, 04:08
I meant that I can destroy the wespe with a priest, and the hoctkiss more easily, and that a wespe is better than a hotckiss in that sense, and on the other hand that the hockiss is "OP" because they increased the AoE rank, if not I would have made that change, nobody would complain about the hoctkiss, so that you understand me better, I mean that the main problem with the hoctkiss is the AoE, if they decrease it there will no longer be OP hoctkiss and changes that leave the doctrines wrong or tend to to nerf a unit (example: wespe in ts), they only had to focus on modifying the AoE damage of the hoctkiss not on making changes that are not relevant
A few of us have called for nerfs to the hotchkiss but people threw a fit about it so I'm pretty sure that's not an option, sadly. I do agree with you on that point though.

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Shanks
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Re: ( BETA) New Panzer Support OMG

Post by Shanks »

CGarr wrote:
13 Sep 2020, 04:40
Shanks wrote:
13 Sep 2020, 04:08
I meant that I can destroy the wespe with a priest, and the hoctkiss more easily, and that a wespe is better than a hotckiss in that sense, and on the other hand that the hockiss is "OP" because they increased the AoE rank, if not I would have made that change, nobody would complain about the hoctkiss, so that you understand me better, I mean that the main problem with the hoctkiss is the AoE, if they decrease it there will no longer be OP hoctkiss and changes that leave the doctrines wrong or tend to to nerf a unit (example: wespe in ts), they only had to focus on modifying the AoE damage of the hoctkiss not on making changes that are not relevant
A few of us have called for nerfs to the hotchkiss but people threw a fit about it so I'm pretty sure that's not an option, sadly. I do agree with you on that point though.
It is a very good solution to all this problem (OP missiles), precisely for this reason the unit is delayed or there are many requirements or it slows down etc, the best solution is that it does not do much damage in a very wide area (touch the AoE ), I do not know who are the ones who would complain about this change, because in reality the axis has good options arty or at least it had (until they moved the wespe that in the end they will have to nerf xq as well as this is very powerful in ts ) good options, the humel is not a big deal, it is an artillery with a low cadence, and I think it is practically obsolete, the hotckiss very strong against infantry (too much), the wespe and the grille are good artillery pieces, as well that the maultier neber, arty static ... well, I play as much as axis and allies, and I can say that if there is someone in this forum who does not want nerf for the hoctkiss is a fan of axis, that simple, they have no argument any to indicate otherwise, the elite inf you have (whatever) It can be erased from the map with just one download of this unit, which will continue to generate problems all the time, the humel is a bad unit, if someone who plays axi thinks the same you already know that I totally agree, make them SE be great again, and eliminate OP units to avoid changes that only create more chaos in doctrines

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mofetagalactica
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Re: ( BETA) New Panzer Support OMG

Post by mofetagalactica »

You already have hummels in Scorched earth and yes it tooks cp investment to get it, same for priest.

I still stink Hotchkiss fits more into SE than Panzer support.

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Shanks
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Re: ( BETA) New Panzer Support OMG

Post by Shanks »

mofetagalactica wrote:
18 Sep 2020, 04:14
You already have hummels in Scorched earth and yes it tooks cp investment to get it, same for priest.

I still stink Hotchkiss fits more into SE than Panzer support.

I'm surprised by your intelligence, does a tank with a cannon and missiles fit better in SE than in TS? I repeat, a tank! Not for nothing was this doctrine called tank support. Also, if the hummels were as good as you say, why didn't they order the hummels for ts instead of the wespe? Could you answer this genius?

I ask you please do not give +1 to any idea in the forum before thinking better of it. Mofetita :lol:


This forum amuses me more every day

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Warhawks97
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Re: ( BETA) New Panzer Support OMG

Post by Warhawks97 »

Hotchkiss fits better in SE bc it's a beutepanzer basically like the beutesherman.

Fighting with second hand equipment a defensive war and making the enemie advance as hard as possible. And the Hotchkiss does axactly that. Making the advance for the enemie as hard as possible.

The heavy TD hotchkiss combo was plain stupid bc the hotchkiss could counter inf attacks too easily while the td was kicking tank asses obviously.
TS doc is an offensive doc.

And yes, I suggested Hummel as well. I don't mind wespe or Hummel. Perhaps Hummel would have been less nasty bc it would cost far more than wespe and thus would only be appealing in very certain moments.

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Shanks
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Re: ( BETA) New Panzer Support OMG

Post by Shanks »

Warhawks97 wrote:
18 Sep 2020, 10:51
Hotchkiss fits better in SE bc it's a beutepanzer basically like the beutesherman.

Fighting with second hand equipment a defensive war and making the enemie advance as hard as possible. And the Hotchkiss does axactly that. Making the advance for the enemie as hard as possible.

The heavy TD hotchkiss combo was plain stupid bc the hotchkiss could counter inf attacks too easily while the td was kicking tank asses obviously.
TS doc is an offensive doc.

And yes, I suggested Hummel as well. I don't mind wespe or Hummel. Perhaps Hummel would have been less nasty bc it would cost far more than wespe and thus would only be appealing in very certain moments.

You are much better than figree reasoning in this regard, you just mentioned something key, my friend, "the hocthkiss kicks the butt of all your infantry", in fact it exterminates it! since I started writing in this post, I was telling you..nerf for the shit of the hotchkiss, readjust the AoE, and problem solved, and no longer ridiculous changes in this mod...RIP

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Henny
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Re: ( BETA) New Panzer Support OMG

Post by Henny »

Wespe is useless, 80 munition? Pssh
Dankman is a good guy

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