Beta Brummbar

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Redgaarden
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Beta Brummbar

Post by Redgaarden »

It one shots Easy Eights, not much counterplay against the stupa.

Tigers I also one shot Easy Eights. I miss over repair
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Walderschmidt
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Re: Beta Brummbar

Post by Walderschmidt »

Redgaarden wrote:
07 Jul 2020, 20:57
It one shots Easy Eights, not much counterplay against the stupa.

Tigers I also one shot Easy Eights. I miss over repair
Here's the replay:
6p_hill112.2020-07-07.15-52-33.rec
(1.99 MiB) Downloaded 4 times
Wald
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AND SO IS DICKY

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CGarr
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Re: Beta Brummbar

Post by CGarr »

This might help.

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3708

Constantino
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Re: Beta Brummbar

Post by Constantino »

Indeed, a major problem is that the 76 mm can't reliably penetrate anything other than half-tracks.

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Redgaarden
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Re: Beta Brummbar

Post by Redgaarden »

This might help.

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3708
I dont see how changing ammo is going to solve the issue, Brummbar already costs 50 ammo, and even if we added HE cost, it would still one shot Shermans.

I would suggest reducing the brummbar base dmg so it never can oneshot a sherman E8
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Warhawks97
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Re: Beta Brummbar

Post by Warhawks97 »

current base damage is 400-600 and with all modifers applied deals 540 to 810 damage.

Only if the base damage would be changed to max 500 damage a 76 sherman would have a chance to survive. Its doable.


The stuh for example does not even have a difference for min and max damage. So lowering damage to 500 would easily do the job i think.

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Krieger Blitzer
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Re: Beta Brummbar

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

Hmm.. why shouldn't the E8 die with 1 shot from a 150mm gun? it would only be a problem if the accuracy was 100% which i believe isn't the case.
Redgaarden wrote:
07 Jul 2020, 20:57
Tigers I also one shot Easy Eights. I miss over repair
So does Pershings one-shotting Pz4s. Others could also say: "i miss Zemmerit unlock"

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Redgaarden
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Re: Beta Brummbar

Post by Redgaarden »

Hmm.. why shouldn't the E8 die with 1 shot from a 150mm gun? it would only be a problem if the accuracy was 100% which i believe isn't the case.
Because that makes brummbar a cheaper Tiger I that costs 265 less mp, that is especially good vs infantry.
I think brummbar has 70% accuracy? in the replay I only missed one shell.
If it had shell travel time like howitzer then I wouldn't mind it one shotting E8.
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MarKr
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Re: Beta Brummbar

Post by MarKr »

The StuPa is meant to deal a lot of damage IF it hits and the "if" part is here the important one. It is meant to be accurate against defenses (emplacements, bunkers, trenches...) but inaccurate against moveable targets. The accuracy at max range should be about 35%, further dropped to about 26% if it is shooting at a moving target. If it hits too often, then the accuracy settings should be adjusted.

As I watched the replay:
34:30 - 1st shot at E8 - kill
35:34 - 1st shot at M4 - missed by a lot, no damage
36:17 - 1st shot at E8 - kill
36:29 - E8 destroyed by PIV H (it took also damage a few second earlier from a Schreck) *
36:39 - E8 destroyed by a Schreck *

38:12 - 1st shot at Achilles - kill
(* cases in italics to show that not all the tanks were killed only by StuPa - perhaps it looked like that in the heat of battle)

Achilles took a shot at StuPa first but missed. Achilles has a good chance to penetrate StuPa and if it does, it usually one-shots it. So if it had hit, it quite likely would have destroyed the StuPa. Given that there is 85% hit chance, this was a really bad luck on your side. Also this wasn't a "max range" shot so the accuracy was probably a bit higher in this case.

I would need more replays to see if the stats match the in-game performance. From this one replay it seems it that the StuPa hits too often - 3 hits out of 4 shots (although not sure what range was the shot against Achilles so I would count it more like 2 hits out of 3 shots) but it is just one game so maybe it was just a bad luck on the side of Allies. In the past there was a glitch when StuPa never missed a shot no matter what it fired at but the replay shows clearly (at 35:34) that it can miss so the accuracy settings seem to apply.

Keep an eye out on StuPa and post here any replays with it so we can check its performance more thoroughly.
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Redgaarden
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Re: Beta Brummbar

Post by Redgaarden »

Thank you for the insight MarKr.

I will try and get more test data for the brummbar. And the one time it did miss was on a moving target so I guess that is good.
quite likely would have destroyed the StuPa. Given that there is 85% hit chance, this was a really bad luck on your side.
You mean good luck on my side, since I was the one who used the Stupa. And as warhakws said, the stupa does 540-810 dmg to E8, so I must have been really lucky that game to get those results.
But probably not that improbable with such a small sample size.

But I dont think that the brummbar should have a 40% chance to kill a Sherman every shot it hits.
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MarKr
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Re: Beta Brummbar

Post by MarKr »

Redgaarden wrote:
08 Jul 2020, 16:09
You mean good luck on my side, since I was the one who used the Stupa.
I didn't use any quote but I reacted to Wald's post with attached replay so I meant it from his point of view - so bad luck from the side of Allies, good luck from the side of Axis.

Given that StuPa has longer max range than standard units, the accuracy could probably be dropped down a bit when it shoots from such a distance without its long-range ability.

One thing to note - StuPa uses the same armor as Panthers so it is relatively good from the front but it can be easily penetrated by a hit to the rear half even by "AP" ammo from 75mm Sherman, 76mm gun has a guaranteed penetration when shooting at the rear even at max range but from the front it is barely 20% chance at max range. So the best way to deal with the StuPa is to use its slow speed against it, stay on the move and try to flank it.
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Walderschmidt
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Re: Beta Brummbar

Post by Walderschmidt »

MarKr wrote:
08 Jul 2020, 16:29
I didn't use any quote but I reacted to Wald's post with attached replay so I meant it from his point of view - so bad luck from the side of Allies, good luck from the side of Axis.

Given that StuPa has longer max range than standard units, the accuracy could probably be dropped down a bit when it shoots from such a distance without its long-range ability.

One thing to note - StuPa uses the same armor as Panthers so it is relatively good from the front but it can be easily penetrated by a hit to the rear half even by "AP" ammo from 75mm Sherman, 76mm gun has a guaranteed penetration when shooting at the rear even at max range but from the front it is barely 20% chance at max range. So the best way to deal with the StuPa is to use its slow speed against it, stay on the move and try to flank it.
In hindsight, it's my first game against the StuPa in a long time and I just didn't know how to deal with it and had tunnel vision after playing a long, frustratingly-reversed game.

I'd have to play more to have an opinion of it. I ranted and raved after seeing it absolutely destroy two of my tanks with ease, but honestly, I was more just mad and surprised that the game I was winning turned around and I couldn't stop that.

Wald
Kwok is an allied fanboy!

AND SO IS DICKY

AND MARKR IS THE BIGGGEST ALLIED FANBOI OF THEM ALL

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Warhawks97
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Re: Beta Brummbar

Post by Warhawks97 »

Stupa has same range now as normal tanks which is 60.

However it uses slightly different range brackets so the long range accuracy drops less quick as for most tanks.

the basic accuracy at distant range is 0.40.

So perhaps just drop it to 0.35 (and long to 0.45) and change the long range range bracket.

The range bracket issue is btw the same for stuh.

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MarKr
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Re: Beta Brummbar

Post by MarKr »

Yeah, Hawks is right, I checked the "long range" weapon file.

When it shoots without its ability, it has same range as any other tank and the accuracy is 40% at maximum range but it has actually even more severe accuracy nerfs vs any moving target - it drops to just 8-10% so as long as you're moving, you should relatively safe.

What I wrote about the armor still applies though.
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CGarr
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Re: Beta Brummbar

Post by CGarr »

@Red I meant it'd help in the sense that 76mm's would possibly have an easier time penning it from the front with AP.

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