Give 0 CP M10s to All American Doctrines: Poll

Do you have a balancing problem or do you want to make a suggestion for the game? You are at the right place.

Give all US doctrines a 0 CP M10

Yes
14
74%
No, keep it the same
5
26%
Other
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 19

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Walderschmidt
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Give 0 CP M10s to All American Doctrines: Poll

Post by Walderschmidt »

Warhawks97 wrote:
30 Jun 2020, 11:04
The Off-Topic part:
I would consider to make M10 really a 0 CP option and together with normal shermans to be a standard unit. I would be fine when in return the 76 shermans would be delayed by 1 CP.
But so far i was several times forced to rush for 76 shermans and M10´s to counter early Tank IV spams. So
As CGarr mentioned, axis have cheap Marders and Long Barreld Tank IV´s as regular units.
Warhawks has made a really good point and I think Dicky/CGarr has talked about this both on discord on the forum as well.

I think it’s nuts that Americans have to US cp to unlock this glass cannon when the Germans always have a Marder glass cannon as well.

Sure the HEAT round is strong but that’s locked behind Exp Production upgrade 2.

What do you guys think?

Wald
Last edited by Walderschmidt on 30 Jun 2020, 23:58, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Give 0 CP M10s to All American Doctrines

Post by Warhawks97 »

I Vote yes.

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CGarr
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Re: Give 0 CP M10s to All American Doctrines: Poll

Post by CGarr »

If people dislike the idea of having the heat shell for 0CP, it could also just be tied to the 76 sherman unlock on top of the tech cost.

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Re: Give 0 CP M10s to All American Doctrines: Poll

Post by Walderschmidt »

CGarr wrote:
01 Jul 2020, 02:08
If people dislike the idea of having the heat shell for 0CP, it could also just be tied to the 76 sherman unlock on top of the tech cost.
That could definitely work if it is the sticking point.

Wald
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Re: Give 0 CP M10s to All American Doctrines: Poll

Post by kwok »

Damn. I'm scared of this vote. I'd be a LOT more comfortable with more votes because I fear this change will come with asks for other changes... But I'll leave my predictions out and wait. Maybe I'm wrong.

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Re: Give 0 CP M10s to All American Doctrines: Poll

Post by Walderschmidt »

We're now at 8 votes.

Can the people who want it to stay the same post and comment why?

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Re: Give 0 CP M10s to All American Doctrines: Poll

Post by Diablo »

Voted yes.
Generally i prefer a solid vanilla unit roster with doctrine choice entering heavy hitters, very specialized counters and all around fancy stuff that just is a lot of fun to use.
To me a "solid vanilla unit roster" encompasses the basic units of that faction:
- light infantry (like Volksgrenadiers)
- basic weapon teams (mortar, mg, medium at gun like the 57mm)
- generally useful vehicles (scout car/bike, transport, a light combat vehicle like the M8)
- a simple tank (like standard M4) and a light tank hunter
- maybe some weaker form of indirect fire (arty/air support)
To summmarize, before you choose a doctrine, you are able (but not effective) to deal with enemy infantry, armor, emplacements and artillery.
And you shouldnt lose any of those few basic units when finally choosing a doctrine (i'm looking at you 60mm mortar in inf doc).

Cheers

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Re: Give 0 CP M10s to All American Doctrines: Poll

Post by Walderschmidt »

Thanks for the response.

I too would like to keep the 60mm mortar in case I want a mortar for smoke and don’t need to extra range for its HE shells.

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Re: Give 0 CP M10s to All American Doctrines: Poll

Post by kwok »

Diablo wrote:
01 Jul 2020, 19:00
Voted yes.
Generally i prefer a solid vanilla unit roster with doctrine choice entering heavy hitters, very specialized counters and all around fancy stuff that just is a lot of fun to use.
To me a "solid vanilla unit roster" encompasses the basic units of that faction:
- light infantry (like Volksgrenadiers)
- basic weapon teams (mortar, mg, medium at gun like the 57mm)
- generally useful vehicles (scout car/bike, transport, a light combat vehicle like the M8)
- a simple tank (like standard M4) and a light tank hunter
- maybe some weaker form of indirect fire (arty/air support)
To summmarize, before you choose a doctrine, you are able (but not effective) to deal with enemy infantry, armor, emplacements and artillery.
And you shouldnt lose any of those few basic units when finally choosing a doctrine (i'm looking at you 60mm mortar in inf doc).

Cheers
Does the AT halftrack count as a light tank hunter?

Here's a replay that I just so happen to have of my last game where I had 2 AT halftracks reaching vet 2 and 3 after killing endless panzer 4's.
temp.rec
(2.91 MiB) Downloaded 2 times

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Warhawks97
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Re: Give 0 CP M10s to All American Doctrines: Poll

Post by Warhawks97 »

kwok wrote:
01 Jul 2020, 22:08
Diablo wrote:
01 Jul 2020, 19:00
Voted yes.
Generally i prefer a solid vanilla unit roster with doctrine choice entering heavy hitters, very specialized counters and all around fancy stuff that just is a lot of fun to use.
To me a "solid vanilla unit roster" encompasses the basic units of that faction:
- light infantry (like Volksgrenadiers)
- basic weapon teams (mortar, mg, medium at gun like the 57mm)
- generally useful vehicles (scout car/bike, transport, a light combat vehicle like the M8)
- a simple tank (like standard M4) and a light tank hunter
- maybe some weaker form of indirect fire (arty/air support)
To summmarize, before you choose a doctrine, you are able (but not effective) to deal with enemy infantry, armor, emplacements and artillery.
And you shouldnt lose any of those few basic units when finally choosing a doctrine (i'm looking at you 60mm mortar in inf doc).

Cheers
Does the AT halftrack count as a light tank hunter?

Here's a replay that I just so happen to have of my last game where I had 2 AT halftracks reaching vet 2 and 3 after killing endless panzer 4's. temp.rec

its an vehicle mounted AT gun. So not really i would say.


I think the first dedicated tankhunter allied used was the 75 mm HT. Followed by M10.


So from my perspective not really.

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Re: Give 0 CP M10s to All American Doctrines: Poll

Post by Walderschmidt »

kwok wrote:
01 Jul 2020, 22:08
Does the AT halftrack count as a light tank hunter?

Here's a replay that I just so happen to have of my last game where I had 2 AT halftracks reaching vet 2 and 3 after killing endless panzer 4's. temp.rec
It counts as a light tank hunter, sure. But other than the 76mm AT gun, the Americans don’t really have any standard heavy-anti-tank option on wheels.

I want the M10 to be that standard option. It’s a glass cannon and has no real anti-inf ability other than the ability to run away.

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Re: Give 0 CP M10s to All American Doctrines: Poll

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

Voted NO.

Not long ago; during the earlier stages of the BETA... Stug4 was added as an unlock to WH docs, as players believed such effective TDs shouldn't be available without CP requirement.. now, what TDs Axis get by default except the Marder?? M10 is surely superior in every single way.

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Re: Give 0 CP M10s to All American Doctrines: Poll

Post by Walderschmidt »

Krieger Blitzer wrote:
01 Jul 2020, 22:56
Voted NO.

Not long ago; during the earlier stages of the BETA... Stug4 was added as an unlock to WH docs, as players believed such effective TDs shouldn't be available without CP requirement.. now, what TDs Axis get by default except the Marder?? M10 is surely superior in every single way.
I appreciate you telling me why.

How is the M10 superior? It has no anti-inf ability and is a glass cannon like the marder. Maybe the Marder should be looked at if you think it is so inferior to the M10z

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Re: Give 0 CP M10s to All American Doctrines: Poll

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

i think M10 is more capable of eliminating heavier Axis stuff, Marder can be killed easily by 57mm HTs.. if the problem is early rushing Pz4.F2 then it should either require CPs or be nerfed against 57mm AT guns; as i believe it's not a good idea to see more TDs available by default all over the place.

Or buff the US 75mm Sherman to have 50/50 chance against F2 tanks.

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Re: Give 0 CP M10s to All American Doctrines: Poll

Post by CGarr »

Walderschmidt wrote:
01 Jul 2020, 23:09
Krieger Blitzer wrote:
01 Jul 2020, 22:56
Voted NO.

Not long ago; during the earlier stages of the BETA... Stug4 was added as an unlock to WH docs, as players believed such effective TDs shouldn't be available without CP requirement.. now, what TDs Axis get by default except the Marder?? M10 is surely superior in every single way.
I appreciate you telling me why.

How is the M10 superior? It has no anti-inf ability and is a glass cannon like the marder. Maybe the Marder should be looked at if you think it is so inferior to the M10z

Wald
Agreed on the marder getting looked at if it is underperforming, although as far as I'm concerned, the only thing I'd change on it is making its default shot have the performance of the AP and removing the need for the ability. It's slow and lightly so every shot counts, as it has no means of escape if it fails to pen.

I also actually agree with Tiger in that people would probably complain about the Stug not being 0 CP, but my answer to that would just be to make the Stug 0 CP and keep it's ambush and stationary firing position abilities behind the CP unlock that would've previously just unlocked the Stug itself. Those abilities are what make it obnoxious, without them it is basically a panzer 4 F2 with a little more armor and if M10's are 0 CP as well, its not like allies wouldn't have an answer to the Stug.

I think another point that should be brought up is that the M10 is already available for armor doc for 0 CP and I don't see people screaming about it being OP there or "abusing" it (hard to even call it abuse since the thing is subpar), so I don't see why it would be OP in the other docs. It also wouldn't change the game in the sense that a lot of players either unlock the m10 or 76 sherman very early into the game anyways to deal with panzer 4's more reliably since the HT isn't useful past mid game and the resources are better spent on something with a 76mm gun. The game wouldn't be much different from where it is currently other than the US player getting to use the other abilities in their doctrine without having to wait out more CP because they were forced to get one of the tank unlocks.
Krieger Blitzer wrote:
01 Jul 2020, 23:37
i think M10 is more capable of eliminating heavier Axis stuff, Marder can be killed easily by 57mm HTs.. if the problem is early rushing Pz4.F2 then it should either require CPs or be nerfed against 57mm AT guns; as i believe it's not a good idea to see more TDs available by default all over the place.

Or buff the US 75mm Sherman to have 50/50 chance against F2 tanks.
Both the marder and M10 have paper thin armor, and if the M10's armor/health are an issue in game then it should be adjusted accordingly. Both of these tanks should be glass cannons. As far as it's effectiveness against heavies, the M10 is only good against them via use of it's abilities. Without camo, HEAT, AP, or flank speed it would be helpless and if anyone thinks otherwise they are welcome to test it while someone watches their stream to verify that they aren't using said abilities to skew results. I'm probably alone on this but I would be willing to go as far as saying that the these 3 abilities can remain behind a CP unlock wall (sherman 76 unlock for example), as the M10 doesn't need them to be able to kill a P4 F2. Ambush helps, but the M10 is fast enough even without flankspeed that you can pretty easily pull it off without camo, just get in range, fire and back away before the panzer 4's turret catches it. Putting the panzer 4 F2 back behind a CP paywall leaves blitz and terror with no mobile 0 CP option for dealing with a normal sherman (aside from the reward unit AT HT which forces you to give up having a 75mm AT gun), so that change would be a lot more problematic than this one if you take my points about keeping the M10's shells and abilities behind a CP unlock into account.

If someone is going to argue against this idea, try building on the argument of it affecting the doctrine unlocks as a whole. 2 CP are getting freed up to be spent on other things and depending on how it is implemented, inf doc might need something to fill in the void left by the change in the doctrine tree. AB doc wouldn't because they have the M18 and I can understand that thing being behind a CP unlock wall. I would rather see this issue be built upon because it is the only issue that this change brings up, and I'd like to hear other people's ideas on how we could address it. I can come up with something if needed but people always bitch on discord that the forum is an echo chamber where the devs only listen to a few people, so I'd rather someone else say something if they have such amazing ideas and mine are apparently "too radical".

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Re: Give 0 CP M10s to All American Doctrines: Poll

Post by Constantino »

M10 shouldn't require CP and neither should the Stug.

I would replace all M10 unlocks with M18 unlocks (and no cap for Airborne).

As for Stug, I would make it CP free for all Wehrmacht docs (and no reward choices); give plain Stug IV for Def, Stug III for Blitz, and Stug IV late for Prop; all for standardized fuel cost of 40; just make late version 30-50 mp more for free Schürzen.

I would replace Stug IV unlock in Prop with Panzer IV J unlock, and would replace Stug unlock in Blitz with Panther mass production which would slightly reduce Panther A cost and just remove the Panther D from the Doc as it is way too redundant with Panther A. As a side note, I would probably do same with Panzer IV J, remove it from Bliz and just buff Panzer IV H price before and after mass production (and make it weaker to 76 mm for realism and to match armor of Stug IV as both have 80 mm hull).

Reasoning: M10 and Stug should be cheap, cost-effective stop-gap vehicles which have their role until replaced with stronger CP options.

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Re: Give 0 CP M10s to All American Doctrines: Poll

Post by Warhawks97 »

Constantino wrote:
02 Jul 2020, 01:55
M10 shouldn't require CP and neither should the Stug.

I would replace all M10 unlocks with M18 unlocks (and no cap for Airborne).
Yeah. Agreed. I also thought about the stug III being quite underrepresented and barely used. In exchange we got a huge ammount of F2´s running arround.

I think stug III´s and Tank IV H/J´s should form the bulk of the german Tank forces. But they appear just in one doctrine where they are usefull.
As for Stug, I would make it CP free for all Wehrmacht docs (and no reward choices); give plain Stug IV for Def, Stug III for Blitz, and Stug IV late for Prop; all for standardized fuel cost of 40; just make late version 30-50 mp more for free Schürzen.
I wouldnt add stug IV to def doc bc it would just overlapping with Jagdpanzer IV.

But i would add the stug III perhaps so that this doc gets at least one multirole unit which isnt too strong.
It wouldnt have the assault ability like in BK doc in order to prevent the creation of infantry zombies.



So:

By default:

Stug III:
BK doc
Tank support doc
Propaganda doc
def doc
Luftwaffe

Stug IV:
Propaganda doc

By Unlock:
Stug IV late version:

BK doc. (Gets unlocked with the assault Group)

I would replace Stug IV unlock in Prop with Panzer IV J unlock, and would replace Stug unlock in Blitz with Panther mass production which would slightly reduce Panther A cost and just remove the Panther D from the Doc as it is way too redundant with Panther A. As a side note, I would probably do same with Panzer IV J, remove it from Bliz and just buff Panzer IV H price before and after mass production (and make it weaker to 76 mm for realism and to match armor of Stug IV as both have 80 mm hull).

fully agree.
I like the idea with Panther mass-production in certain docs. It would also be a viable option in the Tank support doctrine in future which would also receive the G Panther. The high CP high cost Panther D seems to be out of place there.

Reasoning: M10 and Stug should be cheap, cost-effective stop-gap vehicles which have their role until replaced with stronger CP options.

Fully agree.

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Re: Give 0 CP M10s to All American Doctrines: Poll

Post by MarKr »

The original point here was "Axis have a 0 CP glass cannon TD (Marder) so US should have one too" - comparing similar guns with similar "paper armor" and now it somehow got away from the "Marder vs M10" comparison to "if M10 gets no CP, StuGs should be no CP".

So if that happens, Axis will have a 0 CP "glass cannon" Marders, US will have 0 CP "glass cannon" M10 and Axis will have also 0 CP "not-so much glass canon" StuGs while US will only have the M10 and then what? How long till someone comes up with "Axis have 0CP Marders and StuGs but US has only M10 let's make (whatever unit) also 0 CP".

This thing is starting to spin out of control with more and more units being mentioned as a part of the equation (so far: M4 Sherman, 76 Sherman, 57mm Halftracks, 50m Pumas, StuGs and now even Panthers for whatever reason) and that somewhat shows how complex the balance around it is. US can get 0 CP M4, Axis can get 0CP F2 and the Sherman cannot effectively destroy the F2. Well, that is intentional. Axis have stronger infantry, so US have a rather quick anti-infantry tank but Axis can get F2 which can counter that tank, at the same time the F2 has crappy enough armor that it can be destroyed by the relatively cheap 57mm HTs (as kwok showed here in one of his replays). The F2 can also be countered by Bazooka team rushes because the F2 doesn't have any top MG (yeah, I know - the HE shot is there but still the zooka teams are pretty good counter) then you get into the CP-locked units and there it depends on what you unlock and when. So as long as we stay in the 0CP unit field, are you with US doctrines really helpless against Axis 0CP vehicles without a vehicle-mounted 76mm gun?
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Re: Give 0 CP M10s to All American Doctrines: Poll

Post by Walderschmidt »

I only wanted to change the M10.

If changing it involves modifying anything else then I don’t want this change to happen and I’d take down this thread if I could.

Wald
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Re: Give 0 CP M10s to All American Doctrines: Poll

Post by Warhawks97 »

perhaps we simply seperate the topics. The M10 can be introduced whatsoever.


The question of how many stugs should be in this game is another one. I am just saying that esspecially the stug III is a really underrepresented tank while it should play a bigger role in axis gameplay. It would fit nicely to a variety of doctrines. Regardless of M10 question.

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Re: Give 0 CP M10s to All American Doctrines: Poll

Post by MarKr »

Warhawks97 wrote:
02 Jul 2020, 16:53
The question of how many stugs should be in this game is another one. I am just saying that esspecially the stug III is a really underrepresented tank while it should play a bigger role in axis gameplay.
Why is the current StuG distribution among doctrines insufficient?
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Re: Give 0 CP M10s to All American Doctrines: Poll

Post by CGarr »

MarKr wrote:
02 Jul 2020, 17:10
Warhawks97 wrote:
02 Jul 2020, 16:53
The question of how many stugs should be in this game is another one. I am just saying that esspecially the stug III is a really underrepresented tank while it should play a bigger role in axis gameplay.
Why is the current StuG distribution among doctrines insufficient?
From a realism perspective he kinda has a point. As far as gameplay, the StuG is fine in it's current state. For 2 CP you get a tank that has a considerable amount of armor, a gun with good pen and HE, camo, rapid firing position, and decent speed. It's like a slightly better 76 sherman, but not enough so that it needs a price/CP increase or anything like that. That's not to say that I think 0 CP availability of StuGs would be a bad thing, as I would honestly not mind if they were a 0 CP unit who's abilities were locked behind the current CP paywall. Without the abilities/upgrades in question, namely ambush, skirts, and rapid fire position, the StuG III and IV are basically just panzer 4 F2's without the smoke or turret. They'd still be worthwhile to build before the ability/upgrade unlock in my opinion, as they could still rack up some early vet while supported by units and abilities that the CP could instead be spent on. Overall, balance wouldn't really change, as a comparable unit is already available to the docs that currently have StuGs and Defense doc would be a lot more entertaining with the StuG III as an option (although I can't really comment on how balanced def doc StuG III's would be). It would make the game more fun IMO, but to try and frame it as a vital change is kinda ridiculous. That being said, I still support it if others want it implemented.

It was brought up because somehow having the M10 start as a 0CP unit with the special shells, camo, and flank speed all being locked behind a CP paywalls is somehow equivalent to a 0 CP StuG with all it's abilities. Nevermind the fact that every axis doc already has access to a tank with a long barrel 75mm for 0CP, whereas US only has a 76mm tank for 0CP in one doc despite generally being faced with more heavily armored opponents than an axis player would be faced with. The entire point of my initial suggestion on the other threads was that US does't have a tank or vehicle at 0CP that can aggressively contend with a panzer 4 F2, meaning the game grinds to a crawl as the US player waits to get the CP to do so, assuming they didn't just pick the M10 as their first doctrinal unlock since a 76mm is a necessity for aggressive play. I never said the game is impossible to win, I said that claiming US inf and AB docs are on even ground with axis because they have a halftrack with a 57mm is ridiculous.

The 57mm can barely pen a panzer 4, nevermind anything larger. Meanwhile, marders can pen all but the heaviest allied tanks (churchills), even killing pershings with relative ease. They also have HE and sometimes even MG's to defend themselves. Panzer 4 F2's are on an entirely different level of usefulness, as not only can their guns pen the majority of targets they'll run into and blow away inf, but they actually have armor and mobility, nevermind actually useful smoke. The HT is a decent specialist if you don't factor in scaling, but scaling is a large factor to leave out, and if you include it in your judgement of the 57 HT and marder, the former is comparatively hot garbage. Sure, it's cheap. Kettenkrads are also cheap but I don't see them holding positions solo. Cost efficiency alone isn't a good metric to go off of for comparing these 2 units.

============================================================================================================================

I really wish Wald hadn't made a post out of this idea I presented in the other thread, as while I assume he had good intentions, neither he nor Hawks has done a great job of defending the idea because they are arguing from a different perspective than me and focusing on the less important details of the issue. That's not to say that they are incapable of arguing a point, as both are reasonable people: it is just difficult to argue someone's point for them if you do not have a relatively similar perspective on the matter. Wald generally plays axis a lot more often than allies, and Hawks hasn't been playing regularly for the majority of this beta due to hardware issues, so I would argue that neither share my perspective and I think the point I was originally trying to convey in the other thread only got across partially here at best. I have not had time to sit on this forum and actively defend the idea or I would've just posted it myself, and since I have not been able to be active in responding to all the objections with my counterarguments, I do not feel that this thread adequately got my point across to those who might've seen it.

This was not an attack on these 2 people, I'm just disappointed that I couldn't have defended my stance on this issue better. Sorry if it came across as negative @Wald and @Hawks.

It's just a game, and it doesn't really matter in the long run so I'm not sure why this pissed me off so much other than the fact that I do not like being spoken for.

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Re: Give 0 CP M10s to All American Doctrines: Poll

Post by Omen »

I concur with Dicky's point: HEAT probably shouldnt be available off the bat. Probably best if after the 76 Sherman unlock.

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Re: Give 0 CP M10s to All American Doctrines: Poll

Post by Sparrow »

I vote NO...they are fine with 2 CPs...at least for the infantry
0 CP is for Armored Company, if you put that for all doctrines is another reason to dont use Armored Company.

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Re: Give 0 CP M10s to All American Doctrines: Poll

Post by Warhawks97 »

Sparrow wrote:
12 Jul 2020, 03:56
I vote NO...they are fine with 2 CPs...at least for the infantry
Really?
I would rather make the RL jeep costing CP´s bc thats the real badass unit atm in US armor docs arsenal.

Overall, the cal 50 and RL´s all perform much better than M10´s. If anything i am afraid of, its them, not the m10. I charge into M10´s most of the time without really worrying. Just sometimes they get super lucky with their ambush shot. but thats it.



0 CP is for Armored Company, if you put that for all doctrines is another reason to dont use Armored Company.
lol, really?
I dont play armor doc for M10´s costing 0 CP. I play it for the RL jeep to counter the new early axis vehicle rushes and early tanks at which it super effective.

If i go 1 vs 1 with a tank IV, i prefer the jeep. The M10 gets oneshoted everytime by the targets it should destroy.
The RL jeep however survives most gun counterfire by simply not getting hit.

So
RL Jeep>M10




I play it for having tanks that doesnt have to ammo for getting AP/HE rounds.
I play it for cheap shermans.
I play it for commander arty strikes.
I play it for Veterancy Tanks.


there are dozens of reasons to play this doc and in teamfights its real power comes to shine later and when you have also proper support from mates. It becomes a cruical doc in any attack you do as a team. Its good in destroying inf, medium tanks and when backed up by fireflies you can handle any situation.

The M10 should really not be the reason for picking this doc, lmao.

But indirectly its funny that you actually admit that lots of stuff in the US arsenal is not really competetive compared to other factions when you basically say that everything is crap on this doc.

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